Ask me anything (about slots)!

[Jasminebed]

I have a question about how "Win Up To" amounts are calculated.

Many are pretty straight forward, and how the game can pay 5000x bet is obvious, or that $110,000 is all ten freespins have a wildline at maximum bet.
Others may show a capped payout in the rules (like 50,000x linebet, or a $250,000 cap on Bonanza from the casino itself laid out in the help file.

But Play 'n Go's Phoenix Reborn has me stumped.

It is a 40 line game, and all five wheels wild will pay 1000x bet.

There are no multipliers in freespins, nor a pay for the scatters themselves.

You start at a minimum of 7 free spins, and they can be retriggered.

There are no caps mentioned in the paytable or helpfile.

So where does "Win Up to 5,000x Bet" come into play? Does this mean the entire free spin round is pre-determined?

 

[CasinoNinja]

I have a question about how "Win Up To" amounts are calculated.

Many are pretty straight forward, and how the game can pay 5000x bet is obvious, or that $110,000 is all ten freespins have a wildline at maximum bet.
Others may show a capped payout in the rules (like 50,000x linebet, or a $250,000 cap on Bonanza from the casino itself laid out in the help file.

But Play 'n Go's Phoenix Reborn has me stumped.

It is a 40 line game, and all five wheels wild will pay 1000x bet.

There are no multipliers in freespins, nor a pay for the scatters themselves.

You start at a minimum of 7 free spins, and they can be retriggered.

There are no caps mentioned in the paytable or helpfile.

So where does "Win Up to 5,000x Bet" come into play? Does this mean the entire free spin round is pre-determined?

I think it's when they do their billions of simulated spins, that's the biggest number they have had as the outcome in a few of them.

Which means it's so unlikely that you will hit anything much higher that they can state that

 

[09237653]

I always assumed it would be like with the jammin jars 22000x win, the stated maximum pay would be possible on one (or more) RNG results only - just very unlikely.
With phoenix somewhere on that rng table there is a bonus round with 5 full screens of wilds or enough combinations to make up to 5000x.

 

[CasinoNinja]

I always assumed it would be like with the jammin jars 22000x win, the stated maximum pay would be possible on one (or more) RNG results only - just very unlikely.
With phoenix somewhere on that rng table there is a bonus round with 5 full screens of wilds or enough combinations to make up to 5000x.

What Jammin jar is, is not how most slots work. Jammin jar is essentially a scratchcard, with predetermined prizes.

Most slots, use reels which can land in any position to make the outcome.

 

[09237653]

But isnt that really how all slots work?
do we have any confirmation that png games operate differently under the hood? especially with so many extra randomly triggered elements added to modern slots.

 

[trancemonkey]

But isnt that really how all slots work?
do we have any confirmation that png games operate differently under the hood? especially with so many extra randomly triggered elements added to modern slots.

Why do you think that "randomly triggered elements" make maths hard to do? You can always account for these in the maths...

I've never worked on a slot that is a "scratchcard" - i know many people at many companies and to my knowledge, none of those operate as "scratchcards".
Yes, i'm sure some companies somewhere (probably smaller ones) with less maths experience might do it that way - but actually, while they may think it's simpler, it actually is more restrictive, and whenever i've given advice to companies in the past, i've always told them to go out and invest in a proper mathematician and ideally someone who can write simulations (in Python for example) so that they can really dig in to the details of their own maths.

I understand why Jammin Jars was done the way it was - but for a "normal" slot, it would be almost pointless.

 

[trancemonkey]

I have a question about how "Win Up To" amounts are calculated.

Many are pretty straight forward, and how the game can pay 5000x bet is obvious, or that $110,000 is all ten freespins have a wildline at maximum bet.
Others may show a capped payout in the rules (like 50,000x linebet, or a $250,000 cap on Bonanza from the casino itself laid out in the help file.

But Play 'n Go's Phoenix Reborn has me stumped.

It is a 40 line game, and all five wheels wild will pay 1000x bet.

There are no multipliers in freespins, nor a pay for the scatters themselves.

You start at a minimum of 7 free spins, and they can be retriggered.

There are no caps mentioned in the paytable or helpfile.

So where does "Win Up to 5,000x Bet" come into play? Does this mean the entire free spin round is pre-determined?

I don't know enough about this game to comment on it at the moment - but either they have come up with an arbitrary figure or they have simulated and found that was the max they ever got...
Or that is the theoretical max...

 

[VismundCygnus]

I don't know enough about this game to comment on it at the moment - but either they have come up with an arbitrary figure or they have simulated and found that was the max they ever got...
Or that is the theoretical max...

I am also really interested to know to be honest, so if you come to a conclusion please let us know!

 

[The Reel Story]

I have a question about how "Win Up To" amounts are calculated.

Many are pretty straight forward, and how the game can pay 5000x bet is obvious, or that $110,000 is all ten freespins have a wildline at maximum bet.
Others may show a capped payout in the rules (like 50,000x linebet, or a $250,000 cap on Bonanza from the casino itself laid out in the help file.

But Play 'n Go's Phoenix Reborn has me stumped.

It is a 40 line game, and all five wheels wild will pay 1000x bet.

There are no multipliers in freespins, nor a pay for the scatters themselves.

You start at a minimum of 7 free spins, and they can be retriggered.

There are no caps mentioned in the paytable or helpfile.

So where does "Win Up to 5,000x Bet" come into play? Does this mean the entire free spin round is pre-determined?

Depends on the game. Some games have an actual mathematical max win that can be calculated. However many slots can, theoretically, infinitely re-trigger free spins. This means the potential max win would be... infinite. In this instance, they will stick a max win cap on it to either limit their exposure or pull the RTP down a bit. The platform I used to work on had a configurable max win that the Casino could set, so they could limit their exposure game by game. Now I think about it, that arguably impacts the RTP if it's set too low, but that was never considered a concern.

Just for clarity, in most games, a bonus round or set of free spins are considered 1 'spin' of the game and the win is the outcome of all of them. And yes, they are often all determined up front. So you can really only ever hit the max win in free spins due to this.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Hey @trancemonkey I've been reading this thread with interest from afar for a while.

My understanding of how the RNG and ultimate results work is this-

When a slot is being played, not all of the coded results are available to any one player all of the time. The RNG merely picks from a pool of results but there is no saying that the jackpot result is available in that pool of results to that player at that specific time. This essentially determines whether a player has a 'hot' or 'cold' session, it's dependent on the overall RTP percentage/distribution of the results that the RNG is randomly selecting from at that time. This would explain why there are (admittedly rare) sessions where you just cannot seem to lose and also sessions where no matter how many spins you put through the slot, you cannot hit a bonus. In some sessions I notice certain configurations repeat a lot.

 

[trancemonkey]

Hey @trancemonkey I've been reading this thread with interest from afar for a while.

My understanding of how the RNG and ultimate results work is this-

When a slot is being played, not all of the coded results are available to any one player all of the time. The RNG merely picks from a pool of results but there is no saying that the jackpot result is available in that pool of results to that player at that specific time. This essentially determines whether a player has a 'hot' or 'cold' session, it's dependent on the overall RTP percentage/distribution of the results that the RNG is randomly selecting from at that time. This would explain why there are (admittedly rare) sessions where you just cannot seem to lose and also sessions where no matter how many spins you put through the slot, you cannot hit a bonus. In some sessions I notice certain configurations repeat a lot.

You're wrong about the RNG, and if you've been reading this thread for a while I'm surprised you think like that

There is no pool of results.. it just simply returns a random number in a range in which the game asks for.

For example, it might ask for five random numbers between 0 and 120 because all five reels are 120 long...

 

[Mr_Slot5]

You're wrong about the RNG, and if you've been reading this thread for a while I'm surprised you think like that

There is no pool of results.. it just simply returns a random number in a range in which the game asks for.

For example, it might ask for five random numbers between 0 and 120 because all five reels are 120 long...

I've been playing for 8 years, it's more how I feel the slots play/work.

I remember your balls in a pot analogy. Yes the RNG identifies a random result but using that analogy about balls in a pot, you could have a pot that has a skewed (more than natural) set of results at any given point in time and in either direction. Like I say, this would account for hot sessions where you just can't lose and cold sessions where you cannot hit anything.

I'm not claiming anything untoward as technically this would be above board as long as the results picked by the RNG are random and the slot ultimately hits its stated tRTP.

In certain games I see the same reel configurations land multiple times. Given the fact that these games are programmed with millions of permutations, either I've been seeing Euro millions type odds, lazy programming or the RNG picking from a limited pool of results...

 

[trancemonkey]

I've been playing for 8 years, it's more how I feel the slots play/work.

I remember your balls in a pot analogy. Yes the RNG identifies a random result but using that analogy about balls in a pot, you could have a pot that has a skewed (more than natural) set of results at any given point in time and in either direction. Like I say, this would account for hot sessions where you just can't lose and cold sessions where you cannot hit anything.

I'm not claiming anything untoward as technically this would be above board as long as the results picked by the RNG are random and the slot ultimately hits its stated tRTP.

In certain games I see the same reel configurations land multiple times. Given the fact that these games are programmed with millions of permutations, either I've been seeing Euro millions type odds, lazy programming or the RNG picking from a limited pool of results...

Or the reels are weighted...

 

[4048]

Or the reels are weighted...

To "weight" a reel, would you make it so that on a theoretical 100 symbol long reel some symbols are literally easier to hit, for example by instead of asking for 0-100, ask for 0-180, where the extra 80 are increased chances of landing on some specific symbols among the 100? Or would you weight it by simply adding symbols, increasing the length of the reel?

 

[The Reel Story]

You're wrong about the RNG, and if you've been reading this thread for a while I'm surprised you think like that

There is no pool of results.. it just simply returns a random number in a range in which the game asks for.

For example, it might ask for five random numbers between 0 and 120 because all five reels are 120 long...

I'd like to build on this a little if I may. First though, for the 'hot and cold' streaks, this is purely psychological. It's the way the human brain works. It remembers patterns, emotional responses etc, and these kinds of things happening elicit that, and so they are memorable. If you actually totalled up all your play, you'd probably be surprised how different it was to your interpretation.

Anyway, on to RNG. It's not entirely wrong to say that there is a pool, it depends on the implementation. I'll describe the implementation we had on the platform I used to run as an example. First some definitions. There are 2 types of RNG.

1. True RNG - Is truly random, but is also computationally slow and expensive
2. Pseudo RNG - Is not truly random, eventually it will become predictable. However it is very quick and computationally inexpensive.

An example of a Pseudo RNG is the Mersenne Twister (

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). This implementation is a bit outdated now, but was what we used >10 years ago. It was quick and efficient, but had the drawback that if you knew 624 of the preceding numbers, you could predict the result. Slightly problematic for an RNG. So what we actually had was 1 True RNG and then something like 24 Mersenne Twisters. The True RNG would seed one of the twisters which would then generate ~500 numbers (less than the 624 needed for prediction) before seeding the next Twister. All of the twisters would generate 500 numbers, so you actually had a pool of about 12500 numbers generated.

When a game needed a number, it would request it. Whichever Twister was currently in the queue would return one of it's numbers. The next request would then get a number from the next twister and so on and so on until the pool was depleted. Then the true RNG would run and reseed everything and the whole process repeats.

This has the benefit of meaning you are not hitting the True RNG every single time, which as I said, is very slow, and would mean your slot spin times would be vastly increased. Also having the numbers already in a pool makes the request for a number very rapid.

The numbers themselves are taken into a game 'engine' (where the slot logic is) and converted into the required range (say 0-120) either via a mathematical process or by seeding a Pseudo RNG local to the game engine (again, this makes it computationally very quick, so it ensures the spin time is kept low).

As a collective system, this passes an audit and certification for true randomness, because at its heart, it has that True RNG.

Now, as for the pool effecting your 'hot or cold' streaks. It makes no difference for the following reasons

1. It is no different than asking the RNG for numbers one at a time. They are still random numbers
2. The random number generated by the RNG means different things to different games (in this scenario). If one game needs a number between 0-120 and another needs one between 0-200, the mathematical process that converts the core number into the required number produce different results in each case.
3. The pool is used by ALL players, so if there are 1000's of players all spinning slots, everyone is drawing from that pool all the time. There is no way you are using it alone so it cannot account for a cold or hot streak.

Now this is just a description of the implementation we used to use, but it's not uncommon due to the requirement for computational efficiency to keep spin times down. Hopefully it provides some insight though.

 

[snorky510238]

I've been playing for 8 years, it's more how I feel the slots play/work.

I remember your balls in a pot analogy. Yes the RNG identifies a random result but using that analogy about balls in a pot, you could have a pot that has a skewed (more than natural) set of results at any given point in time and in either direction. Like I say, this would account for hot sessions where you just can't lose and cold sessions where you cannot hit anything.

I'm not claiming anything untoward as technically this would be above board as long as the results picked by the RNG are random and the slot ultimately hits its stated tRTP.

In certain games I see the same reel configurations land multiple times. Given the fact that these games are programmed with millions of permutations, either I've been seeing Euro millions type odds, lazy programming or the RNG picking from a limited pool of results...

It certainly does feel this way. When you play thousands of spins through the same game you get to know it’s traits like the back of your hand. You only need to play a few spins to get a feel if it’s hot or cold (some games are harder to read than others) but its a very rare occurrence to get a decent hit when it feels cold.

Like you have stated I don’t think it’s a misconception on our part it’s more like on certain days some outcomes aren’t available.

 

[The Reel Story]

It certainly does feel this way. When you play thousands of spins through the same game you get to know it’s traits like the back of your hand. You only need to play a few spins to get a feel if it’s hot or cold (some games are harder to read than others) but its a very rare occurrence to get a decent hit when it feels cold.

Like you have stated I don’t think it’s a misconception on our part it’s more like on certain days some outcomes aren’t available.

Without wanting to sound like an a**hat, it 100% is a misconception on your part haha. But it's a natural misconception. It's the way our brains are wired.

I've worked in the industry. I've made games, so I know for sure how it works, but even I feel like a game blows hot and cold sometimes. I know it isn't, I know it's luck, but my brain wants to tell me different.

You (I assume) haven't worked in the industry, so it's natural that you cannot be 100% sure (and that it's unlikely I will change your mind). It's human nature. You'll probably never be able to shake that feeling, so I just wouldn't worry about it. Hopefully you have enough trust in members of this forum like Trance that at least you're being treated fairly when you gamble hehe. As long as you're having fun, that's all that matters.

 

[The Reel Story]

To "weight" a reel, would you make it so that on a theoretical 100 symbol long reel some symbols are literally easier to hit, for example by instead of asking for 0-100, ask for 0-180, where the extra 80 are increased chances of landing on some specific symbols among the 100? Or would you weight it by simply adding symbols, increasing the length of the reel?

Technically you could do either (and probably some other ways). But the most sensible route would be adding more symbols.

 

[snorky510238]

Without wanting to sound like an a**hat, it 100% is a misconception on your part haha. But it's a natural misconception. It's the way our brains are wired.

I've worked in the industry. I've made games, so I know for sure how it works, but even I feel like a game blows hot and cold sometimes. I know it isn't, I know it's luck, but my brain wants to tell me different.

You (I assume) haven't worked in the industry, so it's natural that you cannot be 100% sure (and that it's unlikely I will change your mind). It's human nature. You'll probably never be able to shake that feeling, so I just wouldn't worry about it. Hopefully you have enough trust in members of this forum like Trance that at least you're being treated fairly when you gamble hehe. As long as you're having fun, that's all that matters.

It’s not total misconception though. When you consider that 95% of slot players (that’s a guess but it’s going to be high) throughout the world wouldn’t envisage for one minute that different reel strips are used in the bonus rounds. So say for arguments sake they are lucky enough to hit the “nice” reels the first 5 bonuses they get followed by 20 bonuses where they hit the worst reels. That is what you would call hot and cold and unless you know how this is happening you are going to feel it’s rigged.

Now I am starting to become more educated I can see how it can happen and prefer to use the term “clever manipulation”. It also crossed my mind that if it’s ok to use different reel sets in bonus rounds what is to stop providers doing the same in the base game. Now that WOULD EXPLAIN EVERYTHING.

 

[trancemonkey]

Without wanting to sound like an a**hat, it 100% is a misconception on your part haha. But it's a natural misconception. It's the way our brains are wired.

I've worked in the industry. I've made games, so I know for sure how it works, but even I feel like a game blows hot and cold sometimes. I know it isn't, I know it's luck, but my brain wants to tell me different.

You (I assume) haven't worked in the industry, so it's natural that you cannot be 100% sure (and that it's unlikely I will change your mind). It's human nature. You'll probably never be able to shake that feeling, so I just wouldn't worry about it. Hopefully you have enough trust in members of this forum like Trance that at least you're being treated fairly when you gamble hehe. As long as you're having fun, that's all that matters.

I'm more than happy for you to take over my a$$hat status...
Feel free to pick up my mantle and run with it - you have a more in-depth knowledge of the programmatical side than i, so thank you for taking the time to help out here

I've said the bit in bold 100 times on here, it's also known as the Gambler's Fallacy - but in the same way people are convinced the earth is flat, and won't have it any other way, some will simply not believe us mere industry folks... we're just part of the conspiracy remember

 

[The Reel Story]

It’s not total misconception though. When you consider that 95% of slot players (that’s a guess but it’s going to be high) throughout the world wouldn’t envisage for one minute that different reel strips are used in the bonus rounds. So say for arguments sake they are lucky enough to hit the “nice” reels the first 5 bonuses they get followed by 20 bonuses where they hit the worst reels. That is what you would call hot and cold and unless you know how this is happening you are going to feel it’s rigged.

Now I am starting to become more educated I can see how it can happen and prefer to use the term “clever manipulation”. It also crossed my mind that if it’s ok to use different reel sets in bonus rounds what is to stop providers doing the same in the base game. Now that WOULD EXPLAIN EVERYTHING.

It is a total misconception, I mean, that is the definition of misconception

'a view or opinion that is incorrect because based on faulty thinking or understanding.'

but I don't blame you (or anyone else) for having it. You're absolutely right that most people don't know, and if they don't know they will have an incorrect view based on faulty understanding. It isn't their fault though. As you say, the whole thing is designed to push your buttons. That's why slots are addictive. The fact that people think this way is proof that slot designers are doing their jobs well haha.

Providers absolutely could change reel sets in the base game if they wanted to. As long as it was still a random result then it would be fine. The thing you have to think about is.. why? why would they bother? Games are built and tuned to put their RTP in the 95-98% region for a reason, because that is where it feels best. This is the sweet spot that makes people keep playing but lose in the long run.

Nothing would stop me from making a slot with a 1% RTP if I wanted to. You would almost never win and as long as I published that RTP it would be legal (I believe. I don't think the UKGC have RTP limits but I could be wrong). The salient point is that no one would play it and no Casino would buy it, so it'd be a pointless exercise. Changing reel sets in the base game would do the same thing. It wouldn't add anything to the gameplay and it wouldn't be a smart way of adjusting the RTP while tuning the game design, so.... it's pointless

 

[trancemonkey]

Technically you could do either (and probably some other ways). But the most sensible route would be adding more symbols.

Weighting is actually much simpler than adding more symbols... but in effect the two are doing the same thing.

 

[The Reel Story]

I'm more than happy for you to take over my a$$hat status...
Feel free to pick up my mantle and run with it - you have a more in-depth knowledge of the programmatical side than i, so thank you for taking the time to help out here

I've said the bit in bold 100 times on here, it's also known as the Gambler's Fallacy - but in the same way people are convinced the earth is flat, and won't have it any other way, some will simply not believe us mere industry folks... we're just part of the conspiracy remember

Haha thanks. I didn't mean to hijack your thread BTW! Hopefully a tag team approach will only help!

 

[trancemonkey]

It’s not total misconception though. When you consider that 95% of slot players (that’s a guess but it’s going to be high) throughout the world wouldn’t envisage for one minute that different reel strips are used in the bonus rounds. So say for arguments sake they are lucky enough to hit the “nice” reels the first 5 bonuses they get followed by 20 bonuses where they hit the worst reels. That is what you would call hot and cold and unless you know how this is happening you are going to feel it’s rigged.

Now I am starting to become more educated I can see how it can happen and prefer to use the term “clever manipulation”. It also crossed my mind that if it’s ok to use different reel sets in bonus rounds what is to stop providers doing the same in the base game. Now that WOULD EXPLAIN EVERYTHING.

We can (and do) use different reels in the base game, as long as the chance at the start of every spin remains constant and there is no compensation involved. It is fine to do this, for example (i'll write it in pseudo-code)

ChanceOutOf100 = GetRandomNumber(0,99) //this returns a random number between 0 and 99
if( ChanceOutOf100 < 20)
{
reels = reelsWithMoreWilds
}
else
{
reels = reelsWithLessWilds
}

And also, in most land-based jurisdictions, we HAVE to say that bonus reels are in play during a bonus - but i would actually expect that players totally understand different reels are used during a bonus - hence bonuses feel so different.

 

[trancemonkey]

It is a total misconception, I mean, that is the definition of misconception

'a view or opinion that is incorrect because based on faulty thinking or understanding.'

but I don't blame you (or anyone else) for having it. You're absolutely right that most people don't know, and if they don't know they will have an incorrect view based on faulty understanding. It isn't their fault though. As you say, the whole thing is designed to push your buttons. That's why slots are addictive. The fact that people think this way is proof that slot designers are doing their jobs well haha.

Providers absolutely could change reel sets in the base game if they wanted to. As long as it was still a random result then it would be fine. The thing you have to think about is.. why? why would they bother? Games are built and tuned to put their RTP in the 95-98% region for a reason, because that is where it feels best. This is the sweet spot that makes people keep playing but lose in the long run.

Nothing would stop me from making a slot with a 1% RTP if I wanted to. You would almost never win and as long as I published that RTP it would be legal (I believe. I don't think the UKGC have RTP limits but I could be wrong). The salient point is that no one would play it and no Casino would buy it, so it'd be a pointless exercise. Changing reel sets in the base game would do the same thing. It wouldn't add anything to the gameplay and it wouldn't be a smart way of adjusting the RTP while tuning the game design, so.... it's pointless

You're right - Malta is a 92% minimum, but the UKGC has no minimum. Which, in my opinion, is wholly wrong. They say "player protection" and then do shit like that

 

[trancemonkey]

It certainly does feel this way. When you play thousands of spins through the same game you get to know it’s traits like the back of your hand. You only need to play a few spins to get a feel if it’s hot or cold (some games are harder to read than others) but its a very rare occurrence to get a decent hit when it feels cold.

Like you have stated I don’t think it’s a misconception on our part it’s more like on certain days some outcomes aren’t available.

Why would this be beneficial to anyone? There are thousands of people playing the same game at the same time, and you think we are tracking every single one of you to make sure on some days, some people don't have certain wins? What if this were true, and someone worked that out and then only played on the days they were available - they would run well over the target RTP right, as they would be MORE likely to get bigger wins, whereas the whole point of games like this is that all results are available ALL the time!

 

[trancemonkey]

It’s not total misconception though. When you consider that 95% of slot players (that’s a guess but it’s going to be high) throughout the world wouldn’t envisage for one minute that different reel strips are used in the bonus rounds. So say for arguments sake they are lucky enough to hit the “nice” reels the first 5 bonuses they get followed by 20 bonuses where they hit the worst reels. That is what you would call hot and cold and unless you know how this is happening you are going to feel it’s rigged.

Now I am starting to become more educated I can see how it can happen and prefer to use the term “clever manipulation”. It also crossed my mind that if it’s ok to use different reel sets in bonus rounds what is to stop providers doing the same in the base game. Now that WOULD EXPLAIN EVERYTHING.

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[Bob's Rich Club]

I just want to hear about someone knowing what the biggest win on a slot machine on the net is.

Good day / Claus

 

[mack341]

We can (and do) use different reels in the base game, as long as the chance at the start of every spin remains constant and there is no compensation involved

Trance can you just explain the reasoning/objective behind using different reel sets in the base game?

And is the choice of reel set random and how often could the reel set change, every spin or after say 100?

 

[4048]

Trance can you just explain the reasoning/objective behind using different reel sets in the base game?

And is the choice of reel set random and how often could the reel set change, every spin or after say 100?

Red Tiger likely uses different reel sets for base game. To use laser fruits as an example:

If you get expanding symbols, you cannot get scatters.

Reel sets doesn't change every 100 or so spins, but with every single spin.

So spin 1 you might get reel set 1 and get a tease, and spin 2 you get reel set 2 which expands 3 symbols.

This is also true for the bonus game, where if you get a expand tease or expanding symbol, you will not get any scatters. So if your final spin expands, you cannot retrigger on that spin.

 

[trancemonkey]

Trance can you just explain the reasoning/objective behind using different reel sets in the base game?

And is the choice of reel set random and how often could the reel set change, every spin or after say 100?

It HAS to be picked on every single spin (there are exceptions that are allowed, but it's complex to go in to and very rare and market specific).
And if you've ever played Thunderstruck II, you'll see it in action - when you get the Wildstorm feature, you'll see the reel bands have changed a lot. This is a good example of why it is used...

 

[trancemonkey]

I just want to hear about someone knowing what the biggest win on a slot machine on the net is.

Good day / Claus

If you include jackpots, then the NetEnt Mega Fortune would be the biggest as far as i know:

< not sure if that is the biggest ever, but this is a video of it happening

 

[mack341]

It HAS to be picked on every single spin (there are exceptions that are allowed, but it's complex to go in to and very rare and market specific).
And if you've ever played Thunderstruck II, you'll see it in action - when you get the Wildstorm feature, you'll see the reel bands have changed a lot. This is a good example of why it is used...

When you said base game I assumed you meant the 'common or garden' base game with standard spins; however, I can understand the reel set would need to change for a random mini feature like the TS2 wildstorm.

But a slot with just a standard base game and bonus, I'm not sure I understand the need for different reel sets in the base game?

One reason I think has been mentioned previously is changing your stake could entail a different reel set and variance but that's the only reason I've heard of to date, are there any other reasons...?

 

[4048]

Trancemonkey,

is it normal to weigh games in such a way that if reel 1 has a scatter, then the chance for a scatter on subsequent reels changes?

Basically, are reels weighed against one another during play and based on the results of other reels?

 

[trancemonkey]

When you said base game I assumed you meant the 'common or garden' base game with standard spins; however, I can understand the reel set would need to change for a random mini feature like the TS2 wildstorm.

But a slot with just a standard base game and bonus, I'm not sure I understand the need for different reel sets in the base game?

One reason I think has been mentioned previously is changing your stake could entail a different reel set and variance but that's the only reason I've heard of to date, are there any other reasons...?

There are many, many reasons... but honestly, to go in to them would (a) take a lot of time and (b) probably not help this conversation, as unless you truly understand slots and the way they work, it would just end up with lots of "Yeah, but why" questions. All I can say is that it is done in order to make the game exciting, interesting, fun to play and to help make sure the RTP hits the correct one.

I will however give you one example... on Golden Goddess (a game I have just done a modern version of), if you play it you will notice you get a different symbol super stacked on each reel in each spin. There are some random chances that determine what synbol it is, and how many reels matching stacks appear on.

Sometimes these are the same on multiple reels, sometimes they are different. You could end up with 5 reels with the same stacks, or five reels that have different stacks.

However, at the start of every spin, the chance for every possible combination is constant - note I'm not saying equal. But the chance of having 5 reels of wilds stacked is the same in every spin (for example).

If you understood the complexities of the games that you play (and some are likely way more complex than you think, mathematically speaking) then you would understand why we do things the way we do. But it's very difficult to explain without a) being way too technical and b) saying things that I'm not allowed to (as I would be giving company information away) - and no that does NOT mean that because I cant say, then it's dodgy...

You cant think of a reason simply because you've never tried to make a game... I'm not belittling you, I'm merely being honest. I wouldn't expect you to be able to think of a reason, but if you had to try and make a game like FlameBusters (just pulled a name out of the air) play well and pay the RTP you want, you may well come to realise that it is not as easy as just one reel band set. Sometimes it is.

 

[trancemonkey]

Trancemonkey,

is it normal to weigh games in such a way that if reel 1 has a scatter, then the chance for a scatter on subsequent reels changes?

Basically, are reels weighed against one another during play and based on the results of other reels?

I do not believe you are allowed to alter the outcome of subsequent reels based on the outcome of a previous reel...

 

[Playford7]

Haha thanks. I didn't mean to hijack your thread BTW! Hopefully a tag team approach will only help!

Careful with the ‘tag team comment’ people have been sentenced to 80 years hard labour for less...

 

[mack341]

There are many, many reasons... but honestly, to go in to them would (a) take a lot of time and (b) probably not help this conversation, as unless you truly understand slots and the way they work, it would just end up with lots of "Yeah, but why" questions. All I can say is that it is done in order to make the game exciting, interesting, fun to play and to help make sure the RTP hits the correct one.

I will however give you one example... on Golden Goddess (a game I have just done a modern version of), if you play it you will notice you get a different symbol super stacked on each reel in each spin. There are some random chances that determine what synbol it is, and how many reels matching stacks appear on.

Sometimes these are the same on multiple reels, sometimes they are different. You could end up with 5 reels with the same stacks, or five reels that have different stacks.

However, at the start of every spin, the chance for every possible combination is constant - note I'm not saying equal. But the chance of having 5 reels of wilds stacked is the same in every spin (for example).

If you understood the complexities of the games that you play (and some are likely way more complex than you think, mathematically speaking) then you would understand why we do things the way we do. But it's very difficult to explain without a) being way too technical and b) saying things that I'm not allowed to (as I would be giving company information away) - and no that does NOT mean that because I cant say, then it's dodgy...

You cant think of a reason simply because you've never tried to make a game... I'm not belittling you, I'm merely being honest. I wouldn't expect you to be able to think of a reason, but if you had to try and make a game like FlameBusters (just pulled a name out of the air) play well and pay the RTP you want, you may well come to realise that it is not as easy as just one reel band set. Sometimes it is.

That's a fair point and I was meaning to add 'chiefly' or 'in the main' for that bit about reasons I can understand complex games or for example, ones with stacked wilds having different reel sets, but a game I play far too much 'raging rhino' I can't really see the need for different reel sets, when you play a game like that you tend to feel you're playing one game not v1.1 of 10 different variances or reel sets....

As long as the triggers for the different reel sets coming into play are fully 'random' I don't really mind, if there is some other non random determiner than I would be against this.

Golden compass haha I used to play the cousin to that game 'black widow' damn it was hard to bonus but strangely very addictive due to the sense of potential of getting a full screen of something, seeing big blocks of symbols float just past. [meant to add, addictive in the right sense, the mixture of fun and frustration, rather than chasing losses on extra chilli addictive]

 

[trancemonkey]

That's a fair point and I was meaning to add 'chiefly' or 'in the main' for that bit about reasons I can understand complex games or for example, ones with stacked wilds having different reel sets, but a game I play far too much 'raging rhino' I can't really see the need for different reel sets, when you play a game like that you tend to feel you're playing one game not v1.1 of 10 different variances or reel sets....

As long as the triggers for the different reel sets coming into play are fully 'random' I don't really mind, if there is some other non random determiner than I would be against this.

Golden compass haha I used to play the cousin to that game 'black widow' damn it was hard to bonus but strangely very addictive due to the sense of potential of getting a full screen of something, seeing big blocks of symbols float just past. [meant to add, addictive in the right sense, the mixture of fun and frustration, rather than chasing losses on extra chilli addictive]

I assume you mean Golden Goddess

Raging Rhino either uses different reel sets or one reel set with different weightings. My guess is it uses different reel sets, as some spins there are lots of Rhinos, some lots of Leopards, etc...

 

[bamberfishcake]

In a recent article about gambling myths on Casinomeister there is mention of compensated slots. I would like to know more and have tried searching under different terms to no avail. Could someone point me in the right direction please as I'm sure there must be a discussion somewhere.

Edit: just found an article online funnily enough featuring Trancemonkey himself

 

[The Reel Story]

In a recent article about gambling myths on Casinomeister there is mention of compensated slots. I would like to know more and have tried searching under different terms to no avail. Could someone point me in the right direction please as I'm sure there must be a discussion somewhere.

This isn't my area of expertise. @trancemonkey probably knows better than me as I believe he has experience in this area.

From the UKGC website, this is the description of a compensated machine

Compensated machines
Compensated machines vary the chance of winning a prize as a result of the outcome from previous play. Where such a machine is below its target %RTP it may become more generous dependent upon design and vice versa, though the prize distribution is still determined by chance.

So in my video, when i'm showing the example of how people think RTP works, this is actually what a compensated machine would do. However, online/video slots are not compensated (which is what my video is explaining). This class of machine primarily refers to 'fruit machines' found in pubs etc.

 

[bamberfishcake]

This isn't my area of expertise. @trancemonkey probably knows better than me as I believe he has experience in this area.

From the UKGC website, this is the description of a compensated machine

Compensated machines
Compensated machines vary the chance of winning a prize as a result of the outcome from previous play. Where such a machine is below its target %RTP it may become more generous dependent upon design and vice versa, though the prize distribution is still determined by chance.

So in my video, when i'm showing the example of how people think RTP works, this is actually what a compensated machine would do. However, online/video slots are not compensated (which is what my video is explaining). This class of machine primarily refers to 'fruit machines' found in pubs etc.

That was going to be my next question....I was wondering if any online slots were compensated. Thanks!

 

[The Reel Story]

That was going to be my next question....I was wondering if any online slots were compensated. Thanks!

To my knowledge, they are not, and are not allowed to be, but I've been out of the industry a few years now and regulations change fast. Again, @trancemonkey can probably be more definitive.

Of all the hundreds of games that I've been involved in over the years, I've never seen one

 

[trancemonkey]

That was going to be my next question....I was wondering if any online slots were compensated. Thanks!

No they aren't, and group compensation would actually be very difficult (of course, not impossible) to do. Compensation on a single game is fine because a single player is influenced the machine only for themselves or people that play after them...

However, now consider doing this with multiple players all player the same game, at the same time, at different stakes. It would be very hard to compensate a game fairly, because you wouldn't want to give all the money the high staking guy has put in the machine to the low staking people, right?

Also, compensated games are designed to AVOID losing streaks or bad experiences as much as possible, but yet people assume that hot and cold streaks ARE proof of compensation when the opposite would in fact be more likely to be true, if true at all

 

[trancemonkey]

In a recent article about gambling myths on Casinomeister there is mention of compensated slots. I would like to know more and have tried searching under different terms to no avail. Could someone point me in the right direction please as I'm sure there must be a discussion somewhere.

Edit: just found an article online funnily enough featuring Trancemonkey himself

Ooo what article...PM me a link please

 

[SpinUk]

Didnt Microgaming pull a load of their “pub fruity” machine as they were individual player compensated in an obvious way, making them open to bonus abuse? So this must have been legal reasonably recently.

 

[dionysus]

Didnt Microgaming pull a load of their “pub fruity” machine as they were individual player compensated in an obvious way, making them open to bonus abuse? So this must have been legal reasonably recently.

I seem to call those compensated style slots; Track and Field Mouse comes to mind

 

[trancemonkey]

Didnt Microgaming pull a load of their “pub fruity” machine as they were individual player compensated in an obvious way, making them open to bonus abuse? So this must have been legal reasonably recently.

I don't believe they were compensated, but I don't know for sure. Wasn't Lucky Bar-stard one of them?

 

[Jono777]

Didnt Microgaming pull a load of their “pub fruity” machine as they were individual player compensated in an obvious way, making them open to bonus abuse? So this must have been legal reasonably recently.

Yes and not recently a few years back now.

Unsure whether compensated was the right term but they were defo based on INDIVIDUAL play. Refusing all the wins on minimum bet, deliberately losing hi-lo gambles, carrying on feature board till 'game over' etc would ramp up the RTP.

When you were getting close to top of board for best feature, you could adjust bet size and 'kill' machine for some BIG wins.

I found out about a fortnight before they were pulled so made very little but Vinylweatherman a time served member here made his early retirement funds from them

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Yes and not recently a few years back now.

Unsure whether compensated was the right term but they were defo based on INDIVIDUAL play. Refusing all the wins on minimum bet, deliberately losing hi-lo gambles, carrying on feature board till 'game over' etc would ramp up the RTP.

When you were getting close to top of board for best feature, you could adjust bet size and 'kill' machine for some BIG wins.

I found out about a fortnight before they were pulled so made very little but Vinylweatherman a time served member here made his early retirement funds from them

But surely you were just storing up the money you'd already put in for one big pay day? As the RTP would surely be based on wager figures. Otherwise the machines would have had a pay out % in the thousands and would have been noticed swiftly.

I suspect the reason they would have been pulled is because it's be an easy way to beat wager etc. Take your 100% bonus then go and collect your payday from the fruities. Pay it back in using the method you described then up bet again and get it all back + one wagered 100% bonus.