Ask me anything (about slots)!

[chiya]

Many people are hundred percent convinced however, that if a picking bonus reveals the ones you didn't pick, then it's not predetermined. If it doesn't, then it is. This is especially apparent if you talk to people who play games live at land casinos. Or are the rules different at land casinos?

When it comes to stuff like Yggdrasil I can't see how it would not be predetermined. If you close a Yggdrasil game after getting the bonus, the bonus result is credited to your balance and the bonus disappears. All before you ever clicked on anything. So why then do all streamers ask for picks on Golden Fish Tank etc?

 

[The Reel Story]

Many people are hundred percent convinced however, that if a picking bonus reveals the ones you didn't pick, then it's not predetermined. If it doesn't, then it is. This is especially apparent if you talk to people who play games live at land casinos. Or are the rules different at land casinos?

When it comes to stuff like Yggdrasil I can't see how it would not be predetermined. If you close a Yggdrasil game after getting the bonus, the bonus result is credited to your balance and the bonus disappears. All before you ever clicked on anything. So why then do all streamers ask for picks on Golden Fish Tank etc?

Most of the time, the 'ones you didn't pick' are just random numbers generated by the client. I don't know of a game where it is a true representation. There may be some games where it is, but I doubt it will be many. It's just not really worth the extra effort hehe. Some rules are different in Land based, especially because all of the logic is held in the same piece of hardware, so it would be easier to do something like this and for it not to be exploited. I'd still doubt they would bother though. Trance will know more on that front though.

So yes, what you say about Yggdrasil is correct. However most streamers know full well that the picks don't mean anything, they just do it to involve their viewers because it's fun. It's not obvious for people who don't know though, so there will be streamers (and plenty of their audience) who think it does matter. Streamers are rarely experts in how slots work unless they've worked with people in that side of the industry (like LetsGiveItASpin and DOA2 for example).

 

[trancemonkey]

Many people are hundred percent convinced however, that if a picking bonus reveals the ones you didn't pick, then it's not predetermined. If it doesn't, then it is. This is especially apparent if you talk to people who play games live at land casinos. Or are the rules different at land casinos?

When it comes to stuff like Yggdrasil I can't see how it would not be predetermined. If you close a Yggdrasil game after getting the bonus, the bonus result is credited to your balance and the bonus disappears. All before you ever clicked on anything. So why then do all streamers ask for picks on Golden Fish Tank etc?

In land based casinos in the US (for example) we cannot show you the ones you could of picked unless you could of picked them - I.e that the other options are true.

In online this is not the case, so most of the time the other options you are shown are just there for show

 

[Kroffe]

Finally some secret-agent stuff showing up.
I never leave my house without my trusty Jammer.

Perfetly disguised as a pack of ciggarettes, wich is useful.
I usually get securitys eyes on me withing 30-40 minutes of playing. So when they approach to ask questions and search me, all they find is this perfectly normal looking pack of ciggarettes.

So you keep playing, and usually about 20 minutes later, they will come talk to you again.
And this time they are not playing around. They will want you to come with them to the back-room for some serious "talk".
And thats when the jammer comes into play, you jam the ciggarette-pack right in their face and run like hell.
Before i started using a jammer, i got caught 8 out of 10 times, now its more like 5 out of 10.
Could not recommend more.

 

[trancemonkey]

Do you have any idea about EMP Jammers for Slots? I found a Channel and a Company who sells them for 350$, and they are the only on the web who seems to work on normal modern Slots, they have a demonstration video too.
*snip*

Yeah.. its 100% horse shit

 

[4048]

Gamble functions on games are supposed to be pure 50/50, with 100% RTP.

You can tell with Red Tigers gambles that when you have 100 and gamble for 200, the green and red or their gamble wheel takes up 50% of the bar, which with a 50/50 seems accurate.

How can then Blueprint get away with the massive sham that is lightning strike megaways?

I have lost count of how many 90%+ gambles I've lost on that game.

If you have collected 40 and gamble to 50, the red field is maybe 30% of the wheel. How can it then be 35-40% of the wheel if you have 50 and gamble to 60?`Shouldn't it be smaller?

Can you shed some light on how a gamble function like this one is tolerated?

Edit: To clarify, it seems the wheel has no impact on the actual odds of the gamble, and that it is far from 100% RTP like other gambles have.

Edit #2: More testing today has revealed to me that the wheel does seem to update accurately. This leads me to think yesterdays funky wheel movements might have been graphical glitches, I wish I had done screenshots.

 

[VismundCygnus]

Rather than graphical glitches, it was probably a series of unlikely RNG. In the 50>60 case, you have to remember that the average win of off that might not go upwards linearly.

 

[4048]

Rather than graphical glitches, it was probably a series of unlikely RNG. In the 50>60 case, you have to remember that the average win of off that might not go upwards linearly.

Gambling from 2 to 4 is 50/50, from 4 to 5 should be 20/80 and from 5 to 6 is >80/<20, so the bar should have decreased. When I noticed this yesterday it was because the chance of success decreased, where it should have increased in a fair bet. Hopefully just a graphical glitch.

 

[lotusch]

Didn't want to pollute the interview thread but I just thought of a question that was on my mind for a long time.
Do you feel that social casinos should be treated same as real money casinos?

With this I mean, should they have warnings in place that gambling can be addictive, maybe a limit on how much you can spend on premium items like coins or chips?

I ask this because I have seen first hand how people got in trouble by spending multiple 1000s of dollars on social casinos which sometimes ruined their finances, marriage or a combination of these things.

That said Freemium games are big business, not only for casino themed games.

But in my opinion it can be a dangerous industry as there are literary no limits in place or any protection on how much one can spend on these games.

And coin packages go sometimes for as much as 100 or 200 quid a pack.

 

[trancemonkey]

It's a grey area, I agree. I think it's clear that social casinos are not gambling under the definition in law. You can't withdraw any money, so there is no real gamble

That said, if the authorities start to come after loot boxes and the like, I can see social getting some attention.

I would expect that at a minimum, warnings should be on the sites saying that these games may be addictive (or addicting if you are in the US!) and that they should have some form of self exclusion policy.

It's a bare minimum that is easy to implement and shows some care.

So no, I dont think they should be treated the same, but some safeguards should be put in place.

 

[CasinoNinja]

Is the result on the reels a true representation of how the reel bands actually stoppe? Ie: Did the reels stop like that, for example if the bonus symbol was just one above?

 

[trancemonkey]

Is the result on the reels a true representation of how the reel bands actually stoppe? Ie: Did the reels stop like that, for example if the bonus symbol was just one above?

I always make sure the symbols one above and ome below are the correct ones.

I dont know if all vendors do that.

 

[johnnymcc1966]

I've been thinking about this thread a little bit and not being somebody with much of a mathematical brain I have never really understood these workings,but I'd like to ask in simple terms if the way I am thinking is the way things generally work. I play Bonanza a lot so I will simply use it as an example. So just as the slot is spinning does the computer brain then decide how much,if anything, it will pay on that spin and then simply pays out that amount as it sees fit,either in one cascade,two cascades etc? And then just randomly assigns symbols to make up the value of how much it will pay out?

 

[The Reel Story]

I've been thinking about this thread a little bit and not being somebody with much of a mathematical brain I have never really understood these workings,but I'd like to ask in simple terms if the way I am thinking is the way things generally work. I play Bonanza a lot so I will simply use it as an example. So just as the slot is spinning does the computer brain then decide how much,if anything, it will pay on that spin and then simply pays out that amount as it sees fit,either in one cascade,two cascades etc? And then just randomly assigns symbols to make up the value of how much it will pay out?

No, pretty much the opposite You click spin, the 'brain' then spins the reels and randomly chooses where they stop. The symbols displayed then determine the wins and the cascades, which continues until nothing is left. Then all the wins for everything you hit determine your final winnings.

The front end is then told exactly what the reels/symbols look like at each stage of the spin, so it can show those graphics.

The front end/graphics doesn't determine anything itself. It just does what the 'brain' tells it to do.

 

[CompleteFailure]

Do you have a tamper-proof way of making sure that the version of the slot being played corresponds to the help file being shown?

 

[trancemonkey]

Do you have a tamper-proof way of making sure that the version of the slot being played corresponds to the help file being shown?

The regulator can, at any point, ask for proof that the version being played is the one that was signed off by the test lab. This is easy to do because you van checksum the package on the server and cross-check that with the version that was signed off.

If the checksums don't match, then there is a problem.

 

[mSpinner]

When I enter a bonus game, such as the one on blood suckers where I get to pick coffins that consists of different amounts of cash, does it matter where I click? Or is it pre-determined what I will or not will win, no matter where I click?

 

[trancemonkey]

When I enter a bonus game, such as the one on blood suckers where I get to pick coffins that consists of different amounts of cash, does it matter where I click? Or is it pre-determined what I will or not will win, no matter where I click?

That depends on how the developer has implemented it, but chances are that, online, it doesnt matter where you pick.

In land-based US, if you shown the options after you pick, it WAS a real pick. If it doesnt, it was not

 

[SpinUk]

That depends on how the developer has implemented it, but chances are that, online, it doesnt matter where you pick.

In land-based US, if you shown the options after you pick, it WAS a real pick. If it doesnt, it was not

I get that dynamic for the progressives, it would be impossible to have a wheel stop/pick represented at such big odds, but isn't it a bit misleading in other circumstances to offer false player choice? The industry doesn't do itself favours with stuff like this. Im sure from a design perspective thats business as usual bur most layman people find stuff like that underhand.

 

[trancemonkey]

I get that dynamic for the progressives, it would be impossible to have a wheel stop/pick represented at such big odds, but isn't it a bit misleading in other circumstances to offer false player choice? The industry doesn't do itself favours with stuff like this. Im sure from a design perspective thats business as usual bur most layman people find stuff like that underhand.

It would be almost impossible to make everything a fair pick. If course, you could argue there shouldn't be a pick if its not fair, but then you would have almost zero pick features

 

[SpinUk]

It would be almost impossible to make everything a fair pick. If course, you could argue there shouldn't be a pick if its not fair, but then you would have almost zero pick features

Taking the bloodsuckers example, can you elaborate on why it would be impossible. Bloodsuckers reveals the non- picked values and you confirmed in the US it was mandatory (ie so it must work there).

 

[trancemonkey]

Taking the bloodsuckers example, can you elaborate on why it would be impossible. Bloodsuckers reveals the non- picked values and you confirmed in the US it was mandatory (ie so it must work there).

To make it fair, you would have to make sure that the average of however many picks you give is always the same... This is quite often not the case.

Also, Bloodsuckers doesnt exist in land-based USA machines, so it doesnt have to adhere to those rules.

 

[CompleteFailure]

The regulator can, at any point, ask for proof that the version being played is the one that was signed off by the test lab. This is easy to do because you van checksum the package on the server and cross-check that with the version that was signed off.

If the checksums don't match, then there is a problem.

Is there anything to stop a provider from allowing a casino to run multiple versions of the slot, ie. are casinos forced to host only one version of a slot at a given time?

 

[trancemonkey]

Is there anything to stop a provider from allowing a casino to run multiple versions of the slot, ie. are casinos forced to host only one version of a slot at a given time?

I dont actually know the answer to this question. I would guess it's technically possible to have multiple versions of the same game.

 

[CompleteFailure]

I dont actually know the answer to this question. I would guess it's technically possible to have multiple versions of the same game.

Probably safe to assume that casinos cans. They offer different versions to players depending on their country, right? So they might be running multiple versions all which were checked signed off by the test lab.

Is there a tamper-proof method that the provider can implement to ensure that the help file displayed corresponds to the slot being played? Normally inside the game, there's link to a help file. Where is that help file stored? Does the casino add the link to the help file?

 

[trancemonkey]

Probably safe to assume that casinos cans. They offer different versions to players depending on their country, right? So they might be running multiple versions all which were checked signed off by the test lab.

Is there a tamper-proof method that the provider can implement to ensure that the help file displayed corresponds to the slot being played? Normally inside the game, there's link to a help file. Where is that help file stored? Does the casino add the link to the help file?

That's the second time you have asked about the same thing... so I assume you have an issue where you think the help file is NOT for that game?

I believe that if the help file is not embedded in the game, it is the provider that provides the help file. As to where it is stored, I'm not sure... the URL should give that away

 

[CompleteFailure]

That's the second time you have asked about the same thing... so I assume you have an issue where you think the help file is NOT for that game?

I believe that if the help file is not embedded in the game, it is the provider that provides the help file. As to where it is stored, I'm not sure... the URL should give that away

Well, I don't know but it might be possible. I asked again cause the regulator verifying checksum would not detect this trick. In rating providers by fairness and transparency, it's important that the games are tamper-proof.

Embedded in the game sounds like the best method.

Last question, if a casino can host multiple versions concurrently, and offer different versions to players from different countries, it's seems reasonable that they are also capable of offering different versions to different players on an ad-hoc basis (eg. longtime player vs new player), doesn't it?

 

[trancemonkey]

Well, I don't know but it might be possible. I asked again cause the regulator verifying checksum would not detect this trick. In rating providers by fairness and transparency, it's important that the games are tamper-proof.

Embedded in the game sounds like the best method.

Last question, if a casino can host multiple versions concurrently, and offer different versions to players from different countries, it's seems reasonable that they are also capable of offering different versions to different players on an ad-hoc basis (eg. longtime player vs new player), doesn't it?

I dont know the legal ramifications of doing this, although I know my own moral compass would find trouble here.

That said, as far as main stream suppliers and casinos go, I would be absolutely amazed if anyone did anything like this, legal or not.

 

[CompleteFailure]

TM, this is why I was asking about the help files - I simply don't trust the RTP stated.
Playngo has been exposed for offering inferior versions of their game and sneakily excising the RTP.
This casino displays the high RTP on the side panel and yet displays the notoriously tampered help file.

Which version do you think they are running?

 

[mack341]

I think trance is having a forum timeout, so may be a little while before this playngo quandry is looked at. I'd probably do a 100 spins on 5/10p and see whether it plays like a 96% game or a 89% one

Is this a curacao casino btw?

 

[CompleteFailure]

I think trance is having a forum timeout, so may be a little while before this playngo quandry is looked at. I'd probably do a 100 spins on 5/10p and see whether it plays like a 96% game or a 89% one

Is this a curacao casino btw?

Yes it is a Curacao. Likely a rip-off joint which Playngo happily authorizes to run their software (well an altered version of it) and aids in the deception of players.

 

[dionysus]

I think trance is having a forum timeout

probably just away at conference

 

[goatwack]

I'm pretty sure I saw him headed to Conspiracy Con

 

[trancemonkey]

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm having a time out from posting for a while... otherwise I will lose my cool at certain consistent conspiracy theorists who refuse to answer simple questions and get the ban hammer.

As for the PNG question, as others have said, I guess it is likely a dodgy site and would avoid it like I will avoid bloatgoat for ever more.

I'll still lurk but I'm having a well earned break!

I'll answer any sensible questions posted in this thread via PM to avoid lengthy debates and derailing unless I absolutely feel it warrants a public response.

So feel free to continue to post questions in here.

 

[paul7388]

probably just away at conference

He posted on Saturday he was fed up with repeating himself and people still not believing a word he said so was taking a break from posting for a while.

Okay see he explained it again at same time i posted this lol.

 

[CompleteFailure]

As for the PNG question, as others have said, I guess it is likely a dodgy site and would avoid it like I will avoid bloatgoat for ever more.

1. You forgot about the dodgy provider that authorizes dodgy sites to run dramatically inferior version of their games and then helpfully excises the RTP from the help file in order to deceive players. That's like blaming the street-corner dealer and ignoring the kingpin.

2. The other key point, is that RTP numbers stated in the game cannot be trusted. This side panel is a built-in part of the game, as far as I know.

 

[VismundCygnus]

1. You forgot about the dodgy provider that authorizes dodgy sites to run dramatically inferior version of their games and then helpfully excises the RTP from the help file in order to deceive players. That's like blaming the street-corner dealer and ignoring the kingpin.

2. The other key point, is that RTP numbers stated in the game cannot be trusted. This side panel is a built-in part of the game, as far as I know.

well you dont know shit mate, the stated RTP is what the game u have in front of you is running at.

 

[CompleteFailure]

well you dont know shit mate, the stated RTP is what the game u have in front of you is running at.

Then why is it excised from the help file? It's well theorized that when the RTP is missing from the help file, yo're getting the inferior version (e.g. 89%).

 

[VismundCygnus]

Then why is it excised from the help file? It's well theorized that when the RTP is missing from the help file, yo're getting the inferior version (e.g. 89%).

Yeah if you can't see the RTP you don't know, that is true. So best not to play a slot where you absolutely can't find the RTP online (also because there's been cases of pirated software running out there, who knows what kinda shit such a copy could have).

 

[CompleteFailure]

Yeah if you can't see the RTP you don't know, that is true. So best not to play a slot where you absolutely can't find the RTP online (also because there's been cases of pirated software running out there, who knows what kinda shit such a copy could have).

Well, I know this one is not pirated. It comes straight from Playngo.

I think the side panel is part of the casino's website design and note related to Playngo. They simply customize it with the text and provider logo. So you can say it has nothing to do with Playngo. But it's obvious that these things will happen which is why I agree with those who say the RTP notification should be built in to the game and clearly shown to the player (maybe as the game loads). Especially for providers who provide different versions of their games.

 

[mack341]

They shouldn't be offering a help file with the rtp excised, it's bandit behaviour, facilitating a dodgy casino's tactics. It would be interesting to know playngo's justification, why they agree with the customer not being able to find out the rtp percentage in that help file for players.

If the side panel figure has been concocted and is not the true rtp, playngo would know this as they are aware of the version that they have provided, it seems very odd to excise the rtp figure from the help file where it's usually found [with a bit of looking] and yet be happy with it displayed on this panel, the only explanation that makes sense to me is completefailure's, that the casino can amend the side panel text

 

[Masquerade67]

Going on from CompleteFailure's observation above..... Isn't the help text just another GUI-form held in the game code - therefore audited and carrying a checksum ?? The unscrupulous can add to the overall display by adding frames but cannot alter what the developer has hard-coded in ?? Are there games without help files ? If I wrote something, I wouldn't want to be coy about such an important detail.

Or am I talking garbage ?

 

[Spikie]

Trancemonkey,

What are the reasons that games from b&m take so long to transfer to online ? Or the same the other way from online to proper casinos ?

I’m asking because your new games look fantastic visually, so why can companies just not do a simultaneous release for all markets ?

Another thing is if DOA 1 or 2 was put in land based casinos , what are the reasons that you think it wouldn’t work ? I’m assuming that DOA is very successful online , and there must be a reason that NetEnt don’t have a big land based presence.

Is it just due to gaming politics / brand dominance ( Novo / IGT / SG ) in land based ?

One of the reasons I’m sure that most people signed up to the old jackpot party casino is that they were the first to have the WMS slots online . That is the reason I signed up.

Last point is Cashino online , which is owned by Merkur but has not had any Merkur slots available for a few years now . I only signed up with them as they had the slots I wanted to play originally

 

[dionysus]

Trancemonkey,

What are the reasons that games from b&m take so long to transfer to online ? Or the same the other way from online to proper casinos ?

I’m asking because your new games look fantastic visually, so why can companies just not do a simultaneous release for all markets ?

Another thing is if DOA 1 or 2 was put in land based casinos , what are the reasons that you think it wouldn’t work ? I’m assuming that DOA is very successful online , and there must be a reason that NetEnt don’t have a big land based presence.

Is it just due to gaming politics / brand dominance ( Novo / IGT / SG ) in land based ?

I'm sure trance has a fuller or better (or different) answer but I do recall him saying something to the effect of the slots don't have a lot of cross-over appeal ie what generally works for B and Ms doesnt work for online and vice versa
So I'd imiagine, but for a few, they'd have to be reworked or tweaked for an enritely different market

 

[Spikie]

I totally understand that , but I used to love going to a land casino and pla y a slot ( queens knight wms was one of my favourites) and although this one never made it to Jackpot party, most other wms slots did.

There was just something good about playing a slot in a casino , then going hone /work wherever and turning the sound up, and visualising being in the same place.

Maybe I am alone in this experience.....

 

[Spikie]

As an example ,what are the reasons that Fat Rabbit wouldn’t work land based ? If book of ra is so successful then it looks to me like it is more down to branding / marketing / company power in certain geographical areas.

 

[joerdj]

I was playing Turn it Up by Push Gaming, where if a 2 losing spins in a row you get a reel modifier. How does game like that work. Is it just a sequence at the start or is every spin indepent from each other, and is it just the probability of a losing spin multiplied by each other?

Edit : by the way it's a terrible math model IMO. Just 15 losings spins with a lot of modifiers, get a 0.05 cent win * 4 = 0.20 and back to start you go

 

[trancemonkey]

I was playing Turn it Up by Push Gaming, where if a 2 losing spins in a row you get a reel modifier. How does game like that work. Is it just a sequence at the start or is every spin indepent from each other, and is it just the probability of a losing spin multiplied by each other?

Edit : by the way it's a terrible math model IMO. Just 15 losings spins with a lot of modifiers, get a 0.05 cent win * 4 = 0.20 and back to start you go

Correct, it is just all worked out on probability. Hence the wins you DO get are mostly crap

 

[joerdj]

Correct, it is just all worked out on probability. Hence the wins you DO get are mostly crap

It's just a really bad game. And thanks for the answer

 

[joerdj]

Add to that the some reel modifiers are wilds, and the probability of a losing spin then becomes really low