Q&A Ask Me Anything about Slots (AMA) 2020 with Trancemonkey

[Jono777]

Didn’t he have a method on that?..

So he said. Mind wandered for a short while then common sense told me he just caught it in a good mood lol!

 

[Noekk]

Im not going to derail this thread by hating involved here but suffice to say that your suggestion that the UKGC all reside in a safe-haven somewhere is mind-boggling and not even worth the time to reply.

I think you were very picky with the UKGC example, that is among the last regulators to be created, new-ish, arguably stringent, serving one market with undeniable results against the casinos breaking their regulations. It's in the best interest of the casinos to comply and don't pull stuff on the British customers but what about the rest? Yeah, I wish you mentioned Malta and the other truly safe haven islands and then get back at the results, collusion and stuff like that discussion. Seeking multidimensional discussions about slots is always ending up with me admiring the wall, even f2f.

To self respond my questions swiftly without further 'derailing' the thread, slots were not, are not, will be not tampered with. Cloning is possible only in Terminator. There is no switch, toggle or anything of the sorts intended to produce more money even if for a selected period not having to reduce the RTP, I shall check my head. Inspectors are impersonating Judges, slashing the misdoings to the full extent of the law. The reported (sudden) slot malfunctions like Frankenstein, Magic Mirror, the Orc something slot from RTG and numerous others I can't recall by name, were random events. Nothing can be backed up by anything else than words because you have to believe the official version. PERIOD.

The Volkswagen case was isolated. Mercedes, Audi etc that did the same to a lesser extent are not worth a mention. Historically huge companies that did shit to increase the profits. But the MIGHTY CASINO HEAVILY REGULATED BUSINESS? Look away.

Now you can get back to the original intention for creating this thread and respond one liners newbie questions in regards of how the slots work. I have not learned that much in this thread truth be told, but for the bits that made sense thank you. Outta here.

I don't know if you saw these at the time Trancemonkey but the rep from midaur made some interesting comments when he wrote his closing post:

Midaur - Another One Bites The Dust

• Now fraud got more sophisticated and we have fought the battles. From persistent feature abuse to actual RTP manipulation. YES, if planned and executed well you can still manipulate RTP’s and be a guaranteed winner. Nonetheless, we have fought back and closed the doors where we could.
• When you think you have done it all and can sit back a bit it suddenly seems that everyone is a winner. Turns out that as an industry content supplier there is no justification required, players can hit a once in a lifetime win 4 times a week or 10 times a month. Seems to be absolutely normal. That these winning accounts never return after cashing their win is absolutely normal also – who would go back to the place that made them fortunes? You end up removing certain games and find that your winning superstars also disappear. Let’s leave this one parked right there.

and

"I will close with sharing the knowledge that although the RNG’s are audited and certified, the hosting environments and codebases (of the games) of some suppliers are vulnerable. So yes, its 100% fair if you play fair. Just paint the picture of a developer leaving a back door open or techies finding one so they can have a good Xmas by triggering wins here and there. Surely once a supplier finds a leak they close it, but without mandatory audits on their reports, liability can be easily denied. these are attacks that as an operator are very hard to protect against. "

I almost missed this. If we are to accept sole words from the people within the industry, this piece of text is unbelievable - for those that were born yesterday or needed to hear from the mouth of the lion for the lack of critical thinking. Quite contrary to the purveyor of (selected) truth narrative.

 

[Slottery]

Wonder if you can consume any products, of course, it's true that is it meat, milk or slot, there is no any god to guarantee everything everywhere is 100% like it's told, there are always people who have more flexibility in their business moral, very often they get busted as well.

Fully understand that TM have no intention to get this same old debate going on once again. He can't show bulletproof evidence that everything everywhere in the world is legit, mission impossible. It was mentioned by somebody just bit earlier, many things are based on trust, if you don't trust something and are sure you are fooled, don't do it what ever it is in a world.

If i would have so strong suspicious about something, i would just feel stupid by keep doing it (also playing slots and losing money is expected result so if thinking finance wise, it's one really bad investment of your money, unless you enjoy game itself).

This could really be it's own thread ("are slots rigged and how rigged?") instead of make this again many pages to this thread when all know already that there's no gonna be any conclusion about it.

 

[mack341]

If he truly knows of some dodgy operators / developers then he should absolutely whistleblow

I think it was more of a suspicion that some outcomes and player behaviour didn't add up; not sure you can whistleblow about other organisations you don't work for or have detailed inside knowledge of, it would be more of a layman's accusation which without expert help and access to the servers and software is unlikely to go anywhere?

[Were the exploits in fruit machines deliberately put there? no one has ever whistleblowed afaik]

I guess it was part of sour feeling when finding reasons why their casino didn't succeed like wanted

Well it's not the kind of claim you would publicly make when you are still an active business in the industry.

there's no guaranteed cash cows, they wouldn't exist long if players just start to win from particular game all the time, it would be flagged in casinos pocked and game history probably tells you what was a trick.

I don't think it is beyond the realms of possibility what the midaur rep was inferring, may not be a major problem and certainly doesn't mean all slots are rigged.

If there were any scammers with inside knowledge on quirks/patterns within a slot, I'm sure they would target the smaller casino operators who don't generally have the clout to look into things further.

 

[trancemonkey]

I think you were very picky with the UKGC example, that is among the last regulators to be created, new-ish, arguably stringent, serving one market with undeniable results against the casinos breaking their regulations. It's in the best interest of the casinos to comply and don't pull stuff on the British customers but what about the rest? Yeah, I wish you mentioned Malta and the other truly safe haven islands and then get back at the results, collusion and stuff like that discussion. Seeking multidimensional discussions about slots is always ending up with me admiring the wall, even f2f.

To self respond my questions swiftly without further 'derailing' the thread, slots were not, are not, will be not tampered with. Cloning is possible only in Terminator. There is no switch, toggle or anything of the sorts intended to produce more money even if for a selected period not having to reduce the RTP, I shall check my head. Inspectors are impersonating Judges, slashing the misdoings to the full extent of the law. The reported (sudden) slot malfunctions like Frankenstein, Magic Mirror, the Orc something slot from RTG and numerous others I can't recall by name, were random events. Nothing can be backed up by anything else than words because you have to believe the official version. PERIOD.

The Volkswagen case was isolated. Mercedes, Audi etc that did the same to a lesser extent are not worth a mention. Historically huge companies that did shit to increase the profits. But the MIGHTY CASINO HEAVILY REGULATED BUSINESS? Look away.

Now you can get back to the original intention for creating this thread and respond one liners newbie questions in regards of how the slots work. I have not learned that much in this thread truth be told, but for the bits that made sense thank you. Outta here.

Why not try asking simple questions then... then I'll a answer.

The Volkswagen simile is moot. It's not a highly regulated market where the test house has access to all your code, and compiles it themselves. Did you know that happens? That GLI (for example) compiles the code and has full access to all of it? No of course you didn't - you just assume it's all done on the sly. If you read the UKGC remote technical standards, you would know this is something that we have to do.. but you don't because it doesn't suit your narrative. I mentioned the UKGC because i said in an earlier post that I can and will only talk on behalf of well regulated markets. You want to risk a curacao casino? Go for it. I make no assertions about them

 

[mack341]

Why not try asking simple questions then... then I'll a answer.

The Volkswagen simile is moot. It's not a highly regulated market where the test house has access to all your code, and compiles it themselves. Did you know that happens? That GLI (for example) compiles the code and has full access to all of it? No of course you didn't - you just assume it's all done on the sly. If you read the UKGC remote technical standards, you would know this is something that we have to do.. but you don't because it doesn't suit your narrative. I mentioned the UKGC because i said in an earlier post that I can and will only talk on behalf of well regulated markets. You want to risk a curacao casino? Go for it. I make no assertions about them

I did not know this and it is reassuring to learn.

If a freelance software expert came into knowledge of the source code [or parts of it] of a particular slot could that give him any advantage in playing it?

I did read something about seed values for the rng are an important aspect to secure.

This blog article from the university of melbourne is on a similar subject:

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"Pseudo-random numbers

Instead, machines use a

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-random number generator. As the name suggests, this technique generates numbers that appear random: each number generated seems to be unrelated to the ones that came before, and has an equal probability of coming up. To make a pseudo-random number generator all you need is a bit of maths, and a complicated enough formula. A common formula to get random numbers is called the

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, which takes a “

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” number to start, then does a whole heap of maths on it to spit out a series of pseudo-random numbers. They are not truly random as if you put in the same seed, it will spit out the same numbers.

Now, the slot machine’s pseudo-random number generator doesn’t just use a single seed, and some of its seeds may even depend on time or other hard-to-know-precisely variables. However, with a long enough observation time, and some really www.wired.com, it is possible to recreate the entire formula: you’ve know cracked that slot machine, and know when to press the button such that you beat the house odds."

 

[PuddleFish]

If a freelance software expert came into knowledge of the source code [or parts of it] of a particular slot could that give him any advantage in playing it?

Assuming no bugs then there is nothing in the source code that can give an advance.

I did read something about seed values for the rng are an important aspect to secure.

You are correct in that providers use pseudo random value generators but they are under requirement to have a minimum cycle of 2^64 if I recall correctly. The seed essentially tells you what cycle you are in and where you start in that cycle.

Because the randoms are such a important part of the system so are they more tested than the game modules by the tests houses. Not only does all code need to be reviewed and explained. It must also pass what are called 'diehard' tests and various other such test that are created to detect any patterns in a random number generator. The seed value of any such random would also be verified to come from a true source like the cryptographic chip that are in all computers these days.

But lets toy with the idea that you somehow had access to the seed. The problems you then have before you are
1. You most know what random algorithm was used
2. You must know exactly how the random are used in the slot machine. For example how the random value 30 maps to a specific symbol on a specific reel. Anything else than simple reels games would be increasingly more complex.
3. You need to know if the random is used for other parts of the whole system and take them into account.
4. You have to be the only user of the random at the provider (not the operator). Otherwise even if you know the sequence of randoms are 5,6,7 and someone else pick the number 6 for their slot spin then you are now out of sequence and wont know where you are.
5. You need to make sure you are not in a jurisdiction that has the 'always pick a value on a timer requirement' since you wont know where you are in the sequence then. You also need to make sure the provider doesnt always used such a system even in jurisdictions where its not required.

I hope that anyone that can solve all of that instead used their energy and ingenuity for something better.

 

[trancemonkey]

Assuming no bugs then there is nothing in the source code that can give an advance.



You are correct in that providers use pseudo random value generators but they are under requirement to have a minimum cycle of 2^64 if I recall correctly. The seed essentially tells you what cycle you are in and where you start in that cycle.

Because the randoms are such a important part of the system so are they more tested than the game modules by the tests houses. Not only does all code need to be reviewed and explained. It must also pass what are called 'diehard' tests and various other such test that are created to detect any patterns in a random number generator. The seed value of any such random would also be verified to come from a true source like the cryptographic chip that are in all computers these days.

But lets toy with the idea that you somehow had access to the seed. The problems you then have before you are
1. You most know what random algorithm was used
2. You must know exactly how the random are used in the slot machine. For example how the random value 30 maps to a specific symbol on a specific reel. Anything else than simple reels games would be increasingly more complex.
3. You need to know if the random is used for other parts of the whole system and take them into account.
4. You have to be the only user of the random at the provider (not the operator). Otherwise even if you know the sequence of randoms are 5,6,7 and someone else pick the number 6 for their slot spin then you are now out of sequence and wont know where you are.
5. You need to make sure you are not in a jurisdiction that has the 'always pick a value on a timer requirement' since you wont know where you are in the sequence then. You also need to make sure the provider doesnt always used such a system even in jurisdictions where its not required.

I hope that anyone that can solve all of that instead used their energy and ingenuity for something better.

Most RNGs are likely to constantly pick RNG values whether they are used or not to make sure that it can't be hacked, although that wont stop people trying - Russians managed to get an advantage by doing it to land based games from certain providers many years ago I believe.... the new QRNG chips will eradicate this possibility.

 

[snorky510238]

I am still yet for Bloatgoat or @°°° to answer the question of why a company worth many many millions, if not billions, would risk everything to make a few 100k more by breaking the law and risking the entire business.

1. It’s human nature
2. Because they can.

Do you truly believe that every rich person or Company in the world got there via honesty and integrity?

In a lot of cases I think you will find the complete opposite is true. Ask yourself why supposedly upstanding people, who already have enough wealth to be more than comfortable get involved in business that is dodgy and could lead to them falling from grace?

The answer is, opportunity/greed/because the chances of being caught are slim and most likely of all, is that’s how they have amassed their wealth to begin with.

The defence always seems to be “when did any disgruntled employee blow the whistle when there are thousands of them”.

The simple answer to that is, that if anything untoward was happening (not saying it does, just being open minded), then the delicate information would only be shared among very few people. I mean the tea lady doesn’t get to know which horse is going to win the 2.30 at Ascot (unless she is doing the boss a favour, but that’s another story.)

Horse racing is a prime example of an industry where a lot more people would have to be “in the know” to pull off a coup and there are thousands of employees. Yet when did any of them ever come forward and tell all, what goes on? Why are trainers who get paid handsomely anyway, prepared to get involved? Refer to points 1 and 2.

Just take a look around you at the people who earn mega bucks, have a lifestyle most can only dream of, want for absolutely nothing but still get involved in business and situations that could potentially discredit themselves and bring the house down.

Where there is big money involved there will always be “dodgy dealings”. Look at Blatter, Platini, Allardyce and god knows how many others, all highly respected people on enormous salaries and in privileged positions, yet seemingly it wasn’t enough.

As you appear to think that someone who has a lot to lose, wouldn’t possibly risk doing anything untoward perhaps you could explain why there are plenty of examples of people that do and why they do it?

P.S. Trance, I am not accusing or defending here. Merely viewing with an open mind things that are possible/not possible and bringing points for discussion to the table.

It’s not personal, it’s strictly business.

 

[BlaCGaming]

So a bit of different question, I wonder if anyone knows but what happened to Dead Or Alive 2 Bonus Buys? Wasn't it supposed to come out ages ago with a guy on YouTube having made a video playing it and it was never heard from again? What could have possibly caused this whole thing to completely disappear

 

[trancemonkey]

So a bit of different question, I wonder if anyone knows but what happened to Dead Or Alive 2 Bonus Buys? Wasn't it supposed to come out ages ago with a guy on YouTube having made a video playing it and it was never heard from again? What could have possibly caused this whole thing to completely disappear

Is it true that this was ever intended?

 

[BlaCGaming]

Is it true that this was ever intended?

I have found a few sites online talking about it and I believe @Harry_BKK also mentioned it.

Here's what I found:

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[trancemonkey]

I have found a few sites online talking about it and I believe @Harry_BKK also mentioned it.

Here's what I found:

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My honest guess is that casinos simply didn't want the exposure from the volatility...

 

[BlaCGaming]

My honest guess is that casinos simply didn't want the exposure from the volatility...

Huh, interesting. Even the big ones? I feel like they would love to advertise with insane potential

 

[trancemonkey]

Huh, interesting. Even the big ones? I feel like they would love to advertise with insane potential

Well, the big ones in the UK couldn't run it anyway and the big ones elsewhere may have been put off, although I would have expected some to run with it for sure...

 

[Maurshea12]

I can't honestly say. I guess it's likely an agreement with the casino that they will use your games in tournaments for a period of time as a kind of advertising campaign. Next week or month it will likely be someone else's games

What if u put limits on slots and computer doesnt trigger limits to stop game can u get refund

 

[trancemonkey]

What if u put limits on slots and computer doesnt trigger limits to stop game can u get refund

You should raise that with the casino. You should be covered if it's a technical fault.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

What’s Snorkys clue on bonanza?

PM me if need be.

Many thanks.

 

[brizman]

I have a question....do RNG algorithms use factors such as time of day, device being used, time played on slot for example. To allocate wins?
If so, does it mean you can play on a slot for infinity, but if you never 'match' these parameters of a '5000x' win..in essence you can never hit it?

 

[trancemonkey]

I have a question....do RNG algorithms use factors such as time of day, device being used, time played on slot for example. To allocate wins?
If so, does it mean you can play on a slot for infinity, but if you never 'match' these parameters of a '5000x' win..in essence you can never hit it?

No, RNGs don't factor in anything. If you want to, look up Mersenne Twister - this is one of the most used RNGs. The new QRNG chips will likely make this obsolete at some point...

 

[brizman]

No, RNGs don't factor in anything. If you want to, look up Mersenne Twister - this is one of the most used RNGs. The new QRNG chips will likely make this obsolete at some point...

So everybody...no matter what bet size, time of day, device being used..has the same odds of hitting say a 5000x?

 

[trancemonkey]

So everybody...no matter what bet size, time of day, device being used..has the same odds of hitting say a 5000x?

Correct. That is the entire principle behind games and the regulations that most jurisdictions have in place and which apply to most games. in every spin, the chance of every possible award must be constant.

 

[Kroffe]

Correct. That is the entire principle behind games and the regulations that most jurisdictions have in place and which apply to most games. in every spin, the chance of every possible award must be constant.

In the highroller thread i saw someone mention games can have different rtp-profiles depending on stake.
Wouldnt that mean that the chance for every possible reward is not constant, even tho the rtp is the same?

 

[trancemonkey]

In the highroller thread i saw someone mention games can have different rtp-profiles depending on stake.
Wouldnt that mean that the chance for every possible reward is not constant, even tho the rtp is the same?

Yes, to be fair, you can have different RTPs by stake. So my apologies, bet size may change the way the game plays, but it is still random at that bet size and it has no knowledge of any previous bets. When playing at the same bet, all outcomes should be constant and always available (and yes there are some exceptions for persistence games, and no those exceptions don't mean they aren't random... )

 

[brizman]

Yes, to be fair, you can have different RTPs by stake. So my apologies, bet size may change the way the game plays, but it is still random at that bet size and it has no knowledge of any previous bets. When playing at the same bet, all outcomes should be constant and always available (and yes there are some exceptions for persistence games, and no those exceptions don't mean they aren't random... )

So does bet size hits come from a pool of other players that play similar bet size?