Q&A Ask Me Anything about Slots (AMA) 2020 with Trancemonkey

[dionysus]

1) Are free spins already a pre-determined result as a batch?

i.e. When taking a deposit plus free spins it has been seen that the total amount won credits the balance before the free spins are played.

How can the batch of spins/casino/provider know what the end result would be if all spins are random?

Can you help explain please?

And, a fairly simple one i hope:

As I understand it, the RNG pulls out, well, let's say 10 results for 10 FS; as the visual display you see is simply eye candy displaying the results, the results are known the moment theyre pulled


I guess, in simplest terms of analogy; you can pull out a CD randomly from a stack and load it into a pc and hit shuffle and it pulls tracks 2, 7 and 12

it's already known (to the pc) those tracks will be (ex) 2 min 20s, 4 min 30s and 3 min 14s long even before you personally play out the songs because, while those were randomly chosen, the pc reads the lengths before you enjoy them

 

[bamberfishcake]

I just reviewed the other day Marching Legions from Relax Gaming. It has an RTP of 98.12%.

I cant wait for this release.

Good to see a provider doing this. They will become known as the cream of providers compared to PnG and Red Tiger f they stick with this culture.

With titles like Money Train and Temple Tumble Megaways they have been releasing some good quality fun games.

Cant go wrong with single versions of slots in my book. The quality will shine through.

Where did you do the review please? I cant find it?

 

[Bloatgoat]

The RTP is sourced from the RNG on the game server, all players everywhere pull results from it. There can be more than one server for the game, depending on whose platform it is provided through, but it's irrelevant to you personally.

Well,

As much as i try to believe your statement, there are a few casino's out there having differences in bets, gameplay, volatility and so on. So even if a game would request data from the same provider, there's defenitly difference's in outcome.

Lets just say i pumped 1k in barely 2 days into 2 different casino's. One gave me a far better playing time compared to the other, where i both lost the 500 each. I know it's supposed to be a random event, but my experience at the other casino is that it repeatedly gives me better play time compared to the other.

Or the odd wagering that's going on. You cant hit a bonus. You cant hit a big win. But your constantly rewarded with smaller

I also find it odd, that after every withdrawl, i need to wager a shitload before a general big win is actually there again. Yes this happens random too but i've seen too many of the blocking towards my attempts, or being artificially held 'up' to a certain ceiling, to fall back down again. Dont matter which game i do play tho.

I really dont believe that what we're being told is the absolute truth. There's more to it. I'm pretty sure of it. The next time i'm getting celebrated over the email with another offer i might as well shoot for an invitation at the office to see what it's all about. I'm not sure if they would bite at all. No i have yes i can get.

Really if i look back over the last past year; it's bin a bad ride to be honest.

 

[Halvor]

Well,

As much as i try to believe your statement, there are a few casino's out there having differences in bets, gameplay, volatility and so on. So even if a game would request data from the same provider, there's defenitly difference's in outcome.

Lets just say i pumped 1k in barely 2 days into 2 different casino's. One gave me a far better playing time compared to the other, where i both lost the 500 each. I know it's supposed to be a random event, but my experience at the other casino is that it repeatedly gives me better play time compared to the other.

Or the odd wagering that's going on. You cant hit a bonus. You cant hit a big win. But your constantly rewarded with smaller

I also find it odd, that after every withdrawl, i need to wager a shitload before a general big win is actually there again. Yes this happens random too but i've seen too many of the blocking towards my attempts, or being artificially held 'up' to a certain ceiling, to fall back down again. Dont matter which game i do play tho.

I really dont believe that what we're being told is the absolute truth. There's more to it. I'm pretty sure of it. The next time i'm getting celebrated over the email with another offer i might as well shoot for an invitation at the office to see what it's all about. I'm not sure if they would bite at all. No i have yes i can get.

Really if i look back over the last past year; it's bin a bad ride to be honest.

Can't you just start your own ask bloaty everything he don't know about slots thread instead of hijacking this one with your groundless theories?

 

[PokCas]

I would like to ask a question. How long till we see providers creating actual games with storylines and/or exp? That would be insanely fun. For example, a shooter where you buy guns/ammo or a medieval game where you buy weapons/armour/food etc.

 

[Gaz237]

Well,

As much as i try to believe your statement, there are a few casino's out there having differences in bets, gameplay, volatility and so on. So even if a game would request data from the same provider, there's defenitly difference's in outcome.

Lets just say i pumped 1k in barely 2 days into 2 different casino's. One gave me a far better playing time compared to the other, where i both lost the 500 each. I know it's supposed to be a random event, but my experience at the other casino is that it repeatedly gives me better play time compared to the other.

Or the odd wagering that's going on. You cant hit a bonus. You cant hit a big win. But your constantly rewarded with smaller

I also find it odd, that after every withdrawl, i need to wager a shitload before a general big win is actually there again. Yes this happens random too but i've seen too many of the blocking towards my attempts, or being artificially held 'up' to a certain ceiling, to fall back down again. Dont matter which game i do play tho.

I really dont believe that what we're being told is the absolute truth. There's more to it. I'm pretty sure of it. The next time i'm getting celebrated over the email with another offer i might as well shoot for an invitation at the office to see what it's all about. I'm not sure if they would bite at all. No i have yes i can get.

Really if i look back over the last past year; it's bin a bad ride to be honest.

FFS. We are barely 3 pages into the new thread and you have filled it up with your utter tripe.

 

[Kroffe]

I would like to ask a question. How long till we see providers creating actual games with storylines and/or exp? That would be insanely fun. For example, a shooter where you buy guns/ammo or a medieval game where you buy weapons/armour/food etc.

There is a game called "Castle builder" by microgaming (actually rabcat)
Maybe not exactly what you meant, but it has some of the elements you mentioned.
Never tried it myself.

 

[Noekk]

Well,

As much as i try to believe your statement, there are a few casino's out there having differences in bets, gameplay, volatility and so on. So even if a game would request data from the same provider, there's defenitly difference's in outcome.

Lets just say i pumped 1k in barely 2 days into 2 different casino's. One gave me a far better playing time compared to the other, where i both lost the 500 each. I know it's supposed to be a random event, but my experience at the other casino is that it repeatedly gives me better play time compared to the other.

Or the odd wagering that's going on. You cant hit a bonus. You cant hit a big win. But your constantly rewarded with smaller

I also find it odd, that after every withdrawl, i need to wager a shitload before a general big win is actually there again. Yes this happens random too but i've seen too many of the blocking towards my attempts, or being artificially held 'up' to a certain ceiling, to fall back down again. Dont matter which game i do play tho.

I really dont believe that what we're being told is the absolute truth. There's more to it. I'm pretty sure of it. The next time i'm getting celebrated over the email with another offer i might as well shoot for an invitation at the office to see what it's all about. I'm not sure if they would bite at all. No i have yes i can get.

Really if i look back over the last past year; it's bin a bad ride to be honest.

You do have a point. I think you are questioning if there is a pattern/sequence of events, of any kind, that goes against pure randomness. Assuming that you have played loads a particular slot in places, you started to observe 'things' and with a bit of critical thinking you refuse to accept that it was just ahem.. random.

For example a odd string of spins that happens to repeat themselves paying exactly the same - Book of Dead different features paying the same amount, down to cents, not many spins apart each other, example 0.80 bet 13.30 total win. If the features are generated by the provider and are extracted from a pool, what are the odds to hit the same non ordinary amount in a very low sample of spins like 100? It randomness actually picked that amount, how does it always happens to be a low figure number in accordance to the bet and not 2 near-consecutive 1000x features?

Another instance is when the spins are acting erratically, knowing the outcome before the spin actually finishes - Bonanza, triggering a straight feature, it feels like is applied on the screen given the speed of the spin, or when the multiplier have a odd 2 seconds before being displayed on the screen after a sequence of wins, that spin is dead. With this in mind, when a slot tends to spin slower, example Immortal Romance, the slot is on take-mode breaking any random rule that implies a few X win has to show up. Have you been through a 30 spins of pure death of this slot? I did, not tying together three bloody 9s. That feels unnatural and likely is.

Another instance, no idea if this is still in practice, on Quasar Gaming when I selected a slot to play instead of loading the slot it loaded a 'room' of the said slot and I had to pick a number, some numbers were occupied by other users playing it and I could spectate them, other numbers showed how much the slot paid after the previous user vacated it and other numbers were free to enter showing the game logo. It gave the impression of a real casino with seats and machines. Once I 'seated' at a machine and started to play, depending on the developments I either switched the 'seat' after numerous dead spins or I stayed put. After a feature came in instead of waiting for feature frequency to kick in, I switched the 'seat' like starting anew,, like playing the same slot on another casino, and I could see improvements: the behavior of the slot while I played for 500 spins straight versus switching the 'seat' after a feature, counting up to 500 spins and comparing the results. Which method do you think have saw me doing better even if not winning? This is my problem with feature frequency, how it behaves when staying for a longer session, how many features the slot produces and how it behaves when the aim is to hit the feature on multiple casinos in smaller sessions.

Then the obvious sudden death that follows a decent win, the pattern of decreasing/upping the bet that often acts as a toggle to the slot behavior, the 'surprise' 10-20x win right at the end of the balance... and many other post traumatic stress disorders that plagues the psychic after playing them for far too many years, and I like to believe that there is a bit of truth is any of them after I can safely attest that the mind is not playing games on me when the obvious 'wow wtf' moment happens in a state of self awareness, like hitting the same odd win value, odd anti-random spin streaks or the predispositions of starting the feature with a built in template knowing the result by looking at the animation, progressing inevitably in leaving the balance bare, calling it another day of 'casino fun' lol.

 

[Slottery]

Any chance to have own thread for "Theories about how slots are rigged, based on feelings" and keep this thread to actual slot Q&A?

There these obvious things could be all brought in one place instead of taking over thread after thread. Have btw ever thinking how big difference it makes what you are wearing when playing or what music or other noices backround make difference and other such things what your device can catch? If any of mods could remove this post and other 0 value posts from this thread, this might stay somehow readable.

 

[trancemonkey]

I have a question please.

Its with regards to free spins given away as deposit bonuses.

Are free spins already a pre-determined result as a batch?

i.e. When taking a deposit plus free spins it has been seen that the total amount won credits the balance before the free spins are played.

How can the batch of spins/casino/provider know what the end result would be if all spins are random?

Can you help explain please?

Im afraid I can't explain that in a way that I would be certain about... my guess is that some games providers treat Free Spins in a different way. If the have to be taken on certain games they may pull all the results before the games are played. I have never been involved in games required to give free spins so I can't honestly say.

 

[trancemonkey]

Any chance to have own thread for "Theories about how slots are rigged, based on feelings" and keep this thread to actual slot Q&A?

There these obvious things could be all brought in one place instead of taking over thread after thread. Have btw ever thinking how big difference it makes what you are wearing when playing or what music or other noices backround make difference and other such things what your device can catch? If any of mods could remove this post and other 0 value posts from this thread, this might stay somehow readable.

I would agree to be honest. I dont really want to say that posts should be removed, but it would be good to try and moderate this so we don't get too sidetracked.

 

[trancemonkey]

The spins necessary for you to get your stated RTP are not fixed but a simple representation of the average - they cannot be fixed or the game would not be random, would it? You could have 100 spins at a Euro and win 96 back, hitting it in just 100 spins. Equally you could have 1m spins and be running at +/- say 20% deviation from the stated RTP, the deviation likely to be bigger the higher the volatility. I sense you are asking that if the RTP was say achieved over 1m spins, you had had 990,000 and were running 10% below the stated 96%, would you be guaranteed a 'recovery' spell over the next 1,000 spins? No. You wouldn't.
All the developers can do is audit the game over billions of RNG pulls and check it does fall very close to the RTP the maths was designed around.

Most games actually DO give the customer and sometimes the player the average win frequency, feature frequency etc. in the crib sheets/rules, even average feature returns.

True, you can get predetermined feature results (Netent you say, also like Push Gaming's Jammin' Jars) whereby the RNG result is from say 0x to 1500x and all you watch is animations to demonstrate the predetermined outcome. Some, like BTG, profess to pull random outcomes for each free spin therefore the total is not pre-decided as soon as you land the feature. Both methods are permissible and legal.

The RTP is sourced from the RNG on the game server, all players everywhere pull results from it. There can be more than one server for the game, depending on whose platform it is provided through, but it's irrelevant to you personally. The results aren't 'pooled' as you suggest when you say that a player winning 40,000x would mean other players have less chance. The 40,000x winner has simply picked the luckiest 1/10million RNG result, and that 'ball' goes straight back in the RNG pool so you have exactly the same chance of picking it on your next spin, as do all the players including the person who just won it! In fact if you refer back to @trancemonkey he will tell you that IGT actually go to great pains to specify that particular point in their game rules.

There's no point in 'compensating' or rigging the pool of RNG outcomes as the server is providing huge quantities of results to thousands of players and the game will, eventually, return it's 96% RTP and 4% house edge to the operators. Of course, some operators may 'lose' on the slot if their players win and be running 105% on it whereas another may be running 91% and have a temporary 9% house edge - the gambling aspect affects both you and the casino! You can see this demonstrated at casinos like Videoslots who state the current RTP for their individual slots offered.

So no, the server doesn't cater to the individual player, nor the individual casino (unless the casino is the only operator using that particular game server).

You answered most of that very well Mr. Dunover. Only one comment - it IS possible in games that can be calculated to know exactly how many games are in a cycle. For example, if you have a game where you have 5 reels with 64 stops, all evenly weighted, the the cycle is 5^64 = 1,073,741,824 possible reel stops. Of course that still wouldn't mean that after that number of games it would guarantee to be on its exact RTP, but that's how many games on average it should take.

The last part of °°° statement is pointless though, because it basically says "I won't except any proof unless it can be independently verified". So the fact that independent test houses such as GLI, BMM, etc are homologating the games isnt enough, well that just leaves us in a dead end.

The technical standards that are the rules games have to adhere to are freely available. Search on google for UKGC RTS Requirements. It's a pdf but you can read everything the online companies have to do

 

[trancemonkey]

Hi Trance

When I play Raging Rhino and Montezuma at Unibet they both play fine without interruption, but when I play these two games at Genting, after around approximately 80 or so spins an error message pops up apologising for an unknown error and I have to close the game and reopen it, it will then play fine again for a while before the same thing happens again.
This happens regardless of if I'm playing on my desktop pc or android tablet.

Any idea why this happens at one operater but not the other?

Thanks in advance.

Each casino has to integrate the games in to its platform - it's likely a crap integration.

 

[trancemonkey]

I have another question if i may. Sorry if im supposed to wait for the answer to the last one. Just thought it would be easier to bulk the two together.

here is the last q:

I have a question please.

Its with regards to free spins given away as deposit bonuses.

1) Are free spins already a pre-determined result as a batch?

i.e. When taking a deposit plus free spins it has been seen that the total amount won credits the balance before the free spins are played.

How can the batch of spins/casino/provider know what the end result would be if all spins are random?

Can you help explain please?

And, a fairly simple one i hope:

2) With regards to testing RTP on a new game - Is all testing done on a common/single stake size?

OR is each possible stake size for the game tested?

Thanks in advance Trance

With regards to the second question, if all RTPs are supposed to be the same RTP, then testing companies may test min stake, max stake and some random stakes from the rest of them.

If stakes have different RTPs then all stakes will be tested.

 

[trancemonkey]

Well,

As much as i try to believe your statement, there are a few casino's out there having differences in bets, gameplay, volatility and so on. So even if a game would request data from the same provider, there's defenitly difference's in outcome.

Lets just say i pumped 1k in barely 2 days into 2 different casino's. One gave me a far better playing time compared to the other, where i both lost the 500 each. I know it's supposed to be a random event, but my experience at the other casino is that it repeatedly gives me better play time compared to the other.

Or the odd wagering that's going on. You cant hit a bonus. You cant hit a big win. But your constantly rewarded with smaller

I also find it odd, that after every withdrawl, i need to wager a shitload before a general big win is actually there again. Yes this happens random too but i've seen too many of the blocking towards my attempts, or being artificially held 'up' to a certain ceiling, to fall back down again. Dont matter which game i do play tho.

I really dont believe that what we're being told is the absolute truth. There's more to it. I'm pretty sure of it. The next time i'm getting celebrated over the email with another offer i might as well shoot for an invitation at the office to see what it's all about. I'm not sure if they would bite at all. No i have yes i can get.

Really if i look back over the last past year; it's bin a bad ride to be honest.

Bloat, you don't believe anything anyone ever says. You have your own ideas and opinions, but you are utterly incapable of changing your mind. With all due respect, if you aren't willing to listen to people who know what they are talking about, please dont ask questions you will simply ignore the answers too.

If you want to set up a thread as mentioned for you specifically talk about this, please do... I'll happily interact with you on there. But people wont read this if it's just you saying the same thing over and over again...

 

[trancemonkey]

I would like to ask a question. How long till we see providers creating actual games with storylines and/or exp? That would be insanely fun. For example, a shooter where you buy guns/ammo or a medieval game where you buy weapons/armour/food etc.

They exist.. but they don't do very well. Wasnt one called Castle Builder done a few years ago?

 

[trancemonkey]

You do have a point. I think you are questioning if there is a pattern/sequence of events, of any kind, that goes against pure randomness. Assuming that you have played loads a particular slot in places, you started to observe 'things' and with a bit of critical thinking you refuse to accept that it was just ahem.. random.

For example a odd string of spins that happens to repeat themselves paying exactly the same - Book of Dead different features paying the same amount, down to cents, not many spins apart each other, example 0.80 bet 13.30 total win. If the features are generated by the provider and are extracted from a pool, what are the odds to hit the same non ordinary amount in a very low sample of spins like 100? It randomness actually picked that amount, how does it always happens to be a low figure number in accordance to the bet and not 2 near-consecutive 1000x features?

Another instance is when the spins are acting erratically, knowing the outcome before the spin actually finishes - Bonanza, triggering a straight feature, it feels like is applied on the screen given the speed of the spin, or when the multiplier have a odd 2 seconds before being displayed on the screen after a sequence of wins, that spin is dead. With this in mind, when a slot tends to spin slower, example Immortal Romance, the slot is on take-mode breaking any random rule that implies a few X win has to show up. Have you been through a 30 spins of pure death of this slot? I did, not tying together three bloody 9s. That feels unnatural and likely is.

Another instance, no idea if this is still in practice, on Quasar Gaming when I selected a slot to play instead of loading the slot it loaded a 'room' of the said slot and I had to pick a number, some numbers were occupied by other users playing it and I could spectate them, other numbers showed how much the slot paid after the previous user vacated it and other numbers were free to enter showing the game logo. It gave the impression of a real casino with seats and machines. Once I 'seated' at a machine and started to play, depending on the developments I either switched the 'seat' after numerous dead spins or I stayed put. After a feature came in instead of waiting for feature frequency to kick in, I switched the 'seat' like starting anew,, like playing the same slot on another casino, and I could see improvements: the behavior of the slot while I played for 500 spins straight versus switching the 'seat' after a feature, counting up to 500 spins and comparing the results. Which method do you think have saw me doing better even if not winning? This is my problem with feature frequency, how it behaves when staying for a longer session, how many features the slot produces and how it behaves when the aim is to hit the feature on multiple casinos in smaller sessions.

Then the obvious sudden death that follows a decent win, the pattern of decreasing/upping the bet that often acts as a toggle to the slot behavior, the 'surprise' 10-20x win right at the end of the balance... and many other post traumatic stress disorders that plagues the psychic after playing them for far too many years, and I like to believe that there is a bit of truth is any of them after I can safely attest that the mind is not playing games on me when the obvious 'wow wtf' moment happens in a state of self awareness, like hitting the same odd win value, odd anti-random spin streaks or the predispositions of starting the feature with a built in template knowing the result by looking at the animation, progressing inevitably in leaving the balance bare, calling it another day of 'casino fun' lol.

I'll answer all these points tomorrow when I'm on my PC, but suffice to say that your theories about games are similar to Bloatgoats, and are sadly mostly incorrect.

 

[Noekk]

I'll answer all these points tomorrow when I'm on my PC, but suffice to say that your theories about games are similar to Bloatgoats, and are sadly mostly incorrect.

Thanks. I am going through a conflicting process analyzing both sides of the coin as in the questions why the slots it would be needed to be tampered with and my own vast experience of simply playing and analyzing on the go - which is very possible to evolve in a certain psychological vibe and being just that, especially when losing, but I do keep myself brain washed by will for the sake of being open to fill new theories or if possible, facts. My perceptions were drastically altered when I breathed Hulk by Playtech for months long, seeing many irregularities and identifiable mathematical patters that were averse to the most sloppiest definition for Random, and this was years ago and the very reason I have quit Playtech software all together. I appreciate your insights from the control room but don't expect to craft an altar based on official opinions, people like you taught me what I know today, but things may not always go according to the manual hence the asked questions and if you don't mind, more to come

 

[Jono777]

They exist.. but they don't do very well. Wasnt one called Castle Builder done a few years ago?

AFAIK, The provider Rival are the only ones to do well not too bad with these. As the reels turn 1,2 and 3 and Spy Game to name a few.

 

[trancemonkey]

Thanks. I am going through a conflicting process analyzing both sides of the coin as in the questions why the slots it would be needed to be tampered with and my own vast experience of simply playing and analyzing on the go - which is very possible to evolve in a certain psychological vibe and being just that, especially when losing, but I do keep myself brain washed by will for the sake of being open to fill new theories or if possible, facts. My perceptions were drastically altered when I breathed Hulk by Playtech for months long, seeing many irregularities and identifiable mathematical patters that were averse to the most sloppiest definition for Random, and this was years ago and the very reason I have quit Playtech software all together. I appreciate your insights from the control room but don't expect to craft an altar based on official opinions, people like you taught me what I know today, but things may not always go according to the manual hence the asked questions and if you don't mind, more to come

I know bloatgoat hates me saying this, but I have to repeat that my opinions are based on the companies I have worked for and those that I know well through other colleagues and contacts.

I can not and will not say that every company in this industry is whiter than white. Money is involved, so there will always be bad eggs. But the industry is, now, generally very tightly regulated, and those are only set to get tighter.

Ask yourself this:

Companies like IGT, SG, Netent, etc are worth huge amounts of money. If they were caught in any market doing something dodgy, they would likely lose their licence to operate in almost all markets, basically closing the business over night. Nevada have such stringent rules, you wouldn't believe the things companies have to do to get a Nevada licence.

All gambling games have a mathematical edge. The will always make money long term. So why risk cheating? Want more money? Lower the RTP. Simples.

 

[PuddleFish]

To better understand how slots and random works it can help to imagine the simplest game we can and something you can test yourself. A coin flip. Since the coin has 2 sides it gives us that the RTP of the coin flip is 50% assuming heads you loose and tails you double your bet.
If you flip this coin 100 times you will see patterns in the result. Maybe you get 5 heads in a row. Maybe 2 heads then 2 tails then 2 heads then 2 tails. This causes us to see patterns since we are very good at finding patterns even when they don't matter or are not actually there. This also gives that it doesn't matter at all if its you, me or 100 separate people who flip this coin or their own coin. They are all equally random.

This coin flip game however is too fair. The casino doesn't get a cut from operating this coin flip game. We can adjust for this by saying that if the coin lands on the edge and stands up then the casino also wins. Its a small chance of that happening but its all the casino needs since it doesn't care about the single coin flip you do. Its about the millions of coin flips that are done over the whole lifetime of the game. There is also no reason to cheat/have a memory/know that specific player in any way since its already built into the rules of the game that the casino will win in the end. Just like a slot machine.

 

[Noekk]

All gambling games have a mathematical edge. The will always make money long term. So why risk cheating? Want more money? Lower the RTP. Simples.

Sure, this make sense, according to the manual But what about when the investors persuade a company to make more money but they fail to deliver playable/popular slots and they don't want to diminish/alienate their player base by reducing the RTP?

I don't have enough knowledge on what it's in for the providers, how they split the profits with the casinos, but assuming the company under performed for a period of time, wouldn't be handy a switch in the program to perform as told according to some specifics like time of the day, amount of running spins etc? No tinfoil here, it's just business and many businesses are built, maintained, expanded on blood money and zero morality, ethics and other humane concepts - not necessarily in that order or on all points. IG Farben conglomerate after were split they just changed form, I likely have a Bayern product in my home under their logo or a subsidiary. What I'm implying here is that just being a colossus doesn't automatically make it legitimate, on the contrary I would say, because big means many mouths needs to be fed, and the political ones are historically the most expensive.

Due to my lack of knowledge I may talk shit, but are the games that are tested by the independent labs the versions that are running on the casinos? Thunderkick at least are displaying the numerous version changes in right side corner, others do not, who is verifying these versions, why is the need to update a slot and what if the slot is replaced by a clone? Why there have been instances when the slots started to malfunction, regardless of whom profited from it, wasn't that cloning gone wrong? Don't tell me it were the same versions tested by the labs because I have a hard time to believe that a slot would break at one point, affecting its defined maths, rng capabilities and making it exploitable. I think you may know the examples I'm referring to.

I play Immortal Romance since was released(loads of 4 reel wild desires in 2012-2015) and in time I saw it under performing to the initial expectations(pre HTML 5, even worse after), this does not mean that I lost on it and I suddenly saw the Illuminati triangle, I lost on it before too, but the manner in which I started to lose felt that the game was replaced by a clone slightly modified in its ability to churn out sizeable wins. After I played it for years long the change was undeniable there and after tens of thousands of spins, the change was shining. I never imagined cheating, if there indeed is, to be in your face money grabbing, but something subtle, multifaceted with the purpose to generate a number and then stop, THE$SWITCH haha, the extra dough so to say, or to replace the slot by a 1:1 clone to act on certain hours/days. The Russians have cloned many slots so they are not infallible in breaking, at least these version are easy to spot. Is there a body that actively is looking for slots to be the same as launched and the 'updated' versions ever go through any sort of check? Man, I honestly can fill 1 page of questions derived from other questions. Where is big money involved and investors interested in their numbers to inflate, everything is open for anything, including the much regulated casino business with shady and shadowy figures within legitimate regulatory bodies sitting on islands that washes more money than the sea waves washes the beaches.

 

[Noekk]

To better understand how slots and random works it can help to imagine the simplest game we can and something you can test yourself. A coin flip. Since the coin has 2 sides it gives us that the RTP of the coin flip is 50% assuming heads you loose and tails you double your bet.
If you flip this coin 100 times you will see patterns in the result. Maybe you get 5 heads in a row. Maybe 2 heads then 2 tails then 2 heads then 2 tails. This causes us to see patterns since we are very good at finding patterns even when they don't matter or are not actually there. This also gives that it doesn't matter at all if its you, me or 100 separate people who flip this coin or their own coin. They are all equally random.

This coin flip game however is too fair. The casino doesn't get a cut from operating this coin flip game. We can adjust for this by saying that if the coin lands on the edge and stands up then the casino also wins. Its a small chance of that happening but its all the casino needs since it doesn't care about the single coin flip you do. Its about the millions of coin flips that are done over the whole lifetime of the game. There is also no reason to cheat/have a memory/know that specific player in any way since its already built into the rules of the game that the casino will win in the end. Just like a slot machine.

The coin example is sensible to which I agree, to a degree. The slot is supposed to work as a trifecta of dices thrown and that is the result, pure unhinged randomness. Have you seen tampered dices that look legitimate and are inclined to fall on a near established result? I saw in a holiday in Berlin. The 'no reason to cheat etc part' just because there is a house edge is a quite naive take. There is no reason to be evil, greedy, but people just do, they don't have to but they can't help themselves being uhm, humans.

 

[snorky510238]

Trance did I read somewhere that you (personally) had a lot to do with developing a game called “The Wildlife” or have I got mixed up?

 

[trancemonkey]

Sure, this make sense, according to the manual But what about when the investors persuade a company to make more money but they fail to deliver playable/popular slots and they don't want to diminish/alienate their player base by reducing the RTP?

I don't have enough knowledge on what it's in for the providers, how they split the profits with the casinos, but assuming the company under performed for a period of time, wouldn't be handy a switch in the program to perform as told according to some specifics like time of the day, amount of running spins etc? No tinfoil here, it's just business and many businesses are built, maintained, expanded on blood money and zero morality, ethics and other humane concepts - not necessarily in that order or on all points. IG Farben conglomerate after were split they just changed form, I likely have a Bayern product in my home under their logo or a subsidiary. What I'm implying here is that just being a colossus doesn't automatically make it legitimate, on the contrary I would say, because big means many mouths needs to be fed, and the political ones are historically the most expensive.

Due to my lack of knowledge I may talk shit, but are the games that are tested by the independent labs the versions that are running on the casinos? Thunderkick at least are displaying the numerous version changes in right side corner, others do not, who is verifying these versions, why is the need to update a slot and what if the slot is replaced by a clone? Why there have been instances when the slots started to malfunction, regardless of whom profited from it, wasn't that cloning gone wrong? Don't tell me it were the same versions tested by the labs because I have a hard time to believe that a slot would break at one point, affecting its defined maths, rng capabilities and making it exploitable. I think you may know the examples I'm referring to.

I play Immortal Romance since was released(loads of 4 reel wild desires in 2012-2015) and in time I saw it under performing to the initial expectations(pre HTML 5, even worse after), this does not mean that I lost on it and I suddenly saw the Illuminati triangle, I lost on it before too, but the manner in which I started to lose felt that the game was replaced by a clone slightly modified in its ability to churn out sizeable wins. After I played it for years long the change was undeniable there and after tens of thousands of spins, the change was shining. I never imagined cheating, if there indeed is, to be in your face money grabbing, but something subtle, multifaceted with the purpose to generate a number and then stop, THE$SWITCH haha, the extra dough so to say, or to replace the slot by a 1:1 clone to act on certain hours/days. The Russians have cloned many slots so they are not infallible in breaking, at least these version are easy to spot. Is there a body that actively is looking for slots to be the same as launched and the 'updated' versions ever go through any sort of check? Man, I honestly can fill 1 page of questions derived from other questions. Where is big money involved and investors interested in their numbers to inflate, everything is open for anything, including the much regulated casino business with shady and shadowy figures within legitimate regulatory bodies sitting on islands that washes more money than the sea waves washes the beaches.

Yes, the checksum of the game that it's running on the server must match that which was independently tested. And yes, regulators can turn up and demand to test the packages on the server to make sure they match the documented versions.

Can yes, absolutely fake versions of games are around - normally on Russian sites.

 

[trancemonkey]

Trance did I read somewhere that you (personally) had a lot to do with developing a game called “The Wildlife” or have ai got mixed up?

I didn't, though a good friend of mine did. That game came out of our Canadian office.

 

[trancemonkey]

The coin example is sensible to which I agree, to a degree. The slot is supposed to work as a trifecta of dices thrown and that is the result, pure unhinged randomness. Have you seen tampered dices that look legitimate and are inclined to fall on a near established result? I saw in a holiday in Berlin. The 'no reason to cheat etc part' just because there is a house edge is a quite naive take. There is no reason to be evil, greedy, but people just do, they don't have to but they can't help themselves being uhm, humans.

Again, you have ignored the issue though. All companies operating in regulated markets would lose everything if they were caught. It only takes one disgruntled employee to say something (if anything dodgy is going on) and you're all out of a job or, worse, in prison.

If a company keeps making bad games, they go bust. It's that simple. And it happens.

 

[snorky510238]

I didn't, though a good friend of mine did. That game came out of our Canadian office.

Oh okay, I haven’t played it much but it doesn’t seem a bad game. I just wondered what was the highest it paid during testing was really.

 

[Halvor]

I think the real question is, why do bloaty run away whenever he's challenged on views and what not?

As the human trafficer he is, he's surely shy of any non crazy confrontation

 

[trancemonkey]

I think the real question is, why do bloaty run away whenever he's challenged on views and what not?

As the human trafficer he is, he's surely shy of any non crazy confrontation

You'll notice he never answers any of my questions directly either...

 

[pinnit2014]

I know bloatgoat hates me saying this, but I have to repeat that my opinions are based on the companies I have worked for and those that I know well through other colleagues and contacts.

I can not and will not say that every company in this industry is whiter than white. Money is involved, so there will always be bad eggs. But the industry is, now, generally very tightly regulated, and those are only set to get tighter.

Ask yourself this:

Companies like IGT, SG, Netent, etc are worth huge amounts of money. If they were caught in any market doing something dodgy, they would likely lose their licence to operate in almost all markets, basically closing the business over night. Nevada have such stringent rules, you wouldn't believe the things companies have to do to get a Nevada licence.

All gambling games have a mathematical edge. The will always make money long term. So why risk cheating? Want more money? Lower the RTP. Simples.

Playing devil's advocate, and not sarcastic, but why do quite a few high profile software companies continue to supply games to dodgy clip joints in Curacao etc, who accept UK Players (and/or refuse to pay)? - money? - they've obviously not that concerned about their software licence (uk) implications (granted they're not doing anything dodgy in the UK directly but arguably facilitating it by continue to do business such such places)

 

[Noekk]

Yes, the checksum of the game that it's running on the server must match that which was independently tested. And yes, regulators can turn up and demand to test the packages on the server to make sure they match the documented versions.

Can yes, absolutely fake versions of games are around - normally on Russian sites.

So the digital mechanism is not encrypted? I image a particular slot as a recipe, what you see is what you taste, you can guess the ingredients but you can't be sure of them, maybe you're not allowed to know them, the recipe is a math formula that can't just be guessed. Even if they are cloned according to the paytable, how would they make the features work and the random features appear? It may be possible that a rogue employee is selling the secrets?

If inspectors can turn up to test it really depends on the manner they choose to do. If they show up at a company HQ and are served a coffee, smiles are being thrown and they are seated at a table for a discussion as a start or they storm the offices unannounced demanding hands off the computers taking over and doing their tests. It does matter.

Maybe I should not say it but I'm anonymous here so at least I will be leaving out the details,
I work in the meat industry in a company of prestige, I will give just one example here. When a livestock becomes infected and is falling ill long before the time frame set for sacrifice, in spite of the vet genuine daily checks and assurances that this doesn't happen, they are treated with powerful antibiotics for the illness combined with antibiotics for growth, both of which are legal in specific dosages. Because the ill livestock won't develop as the healthy one in the very specific time frame it should and is open for complications/weakened they are rushed for sacrifice and if a certain time set by the law has not passed since the administration of the treatment, sacrifice is illegal due to antibiotics residue to be found in the meat. It is suitable for consumption if the quantities are not exceeded, no one can check or establish how much does this means, the consumer ends up being 'treated' with antibiotics and if it eats much more than the human body can assimilate - again, can't be established, they will fall ill, as in nasty diarrhea and stomach pain or in rare cases develop intestinal carcinoma, a precursor of gastric cancer of which the life expectancy is 5 years long. The employed vet is usually one per shift and is rogue and is sampling healthy livestock, the inspectors show up announced and are retesting the vet tests. Everything is 'alright' as long the chain is not disrupted and no particular health event can be tracked back to a specific lot of meat because it takes up to 4 weeks of on and off consumption to develop serious health problems.

Are the inspectors assigned to do casino checks genuine? Open for questions and depending on how the process is happening.

Again, you have ignored the issue though. All companies operating in regulated markets would lose everything if they were caught. It only takes one disgruntled employee to say something (if anything dodgy is going on) and you're all out of a job or, worse, in prison.

If a company keeps making bad games, they go bust. It's that simple. And it happens.

Technically you are correct again, you are like an open book of common sense that is pricing too much the 'how it should be' mantra, it takes one to spill the beans. If the irregularity is happening at a high level and upon a control can't be tracked or can't be replicated as the willing employee described, what next?
I clearly see that it's a free market of competition that won't leave much terrain to tamper with the software or collude with the casinos because the other providers are may watching, but considering the bits of a slot that goes public, everything of value being hidden in a back end, it's open for question.
Dare to name a big-ish(backed by investors and/or open for trade) provider that went bust?

 

[Halvor]

So the digital mechanism is not encrypted? I image a particular slot as a recipe, what you see is what you taste, you can guess the ingredients but you can't be sure of them, maybe you're not allowed to know them, the recipe is a math formula that can't just be guessed. Even if they are cloned according to the paytable, how would they make the features work and the random features appear? It may be possible that a rogue employee is selling the secrets?

Erm.. I know I will regret this already but what? Its unclear to me if your currently questioning why games are monitored, at the same time as you subscribe to bloatys crazy views, or if your currently completely unaware that anything can be reverse engineered?

If inspectors can turn up to test it really depends on the manner they choose to do. If they show up at a company HQ and are served a coffee, smiles are being thrown and they are seated at a table for a discussion as a start or they storm the offices unannounced demanding hands off the computers taking over and doing their tests. It does matter.

But if you and bloaty got a gut feeling it definitely will beat anything proven by a industry that's heavily regulated, am i right? by the simple nature of how the industry functions we can be tested at any time.

bla bla

Well that's just off putting towards eating meat. it do however have no reflection on the gaming industry what so ever. If anything it makes me question your values in life.

it takes one to spill the beans. If the irregularity is happening at a high level and upon a control can't be tracked or can't be replicated as the willing employee described, what next?

And yet here we are, thousands of sacked employees over the year, loads of C level forced to leave. And somehow no one has spilled the beans?

 

[Noekk]

@Halvor you came with no answers except saying that I am wrong because of 'crazy views'. The thread is supposed to be: I ask, he, or who knows, answers. The suppositions I've made for the past couple of posts were questions too, in disguise. Many to which I've got no answer. To highlight the most important one, is why the slots are malfunctioning with no previous problems. As for the sacked employees of C grade whatever that means, I specifically pointed to 'high grade' employees, ones that are worth letting know about a cheat and part of the mechanism, not the average mortal, joe from the livechat, sound n effects guy and whatever means C grade. Lmao.

And yes, stop eating meat with supermarket provenience if you value your long term health and don't want to take on the (minimal) risk, if you/who is reading the post have no access to a family run butcher shop that are the producer themselves or are selling local farmed stock.

 

[Halvor]

@Halvor you came with no answers except saying that I am wrong because of 'crazy views'.

Because we have already replied to this, especially Trance, about 100 times, check the old thread.

To highlight the most important one, is why the slots are malfunctioning with no previous problems. As for the sacked employees of C grade whatever that means, I specifically pointed to 'high grade' employees, ones that are worth letting know about a cheat and part of the mechanism, not the average mortal, joe from the livechat, sound n effects guy and whatever means C grade. Lmao.

My apologies, I made the assumption it would be pretty self explanatory what C level is... chief executive officer, chief product officer, chief financial officer etc. the big boys

 

[Noekk]

I would check the old thread if it won't take me about 2 weeks of reading it. I don't know the casino slang or English shortcuts that well. This is a public thread and the answers that are given may enlighten or further en-cloud the people, Short and effective answers are appreaciated, none of the 'crazy views tinfoil' stuff in attempts to dismount and disregard the questions by drawing a shade of nutcase-ism around them.

 

[Jono777]

Having had a little think, found it a bit weird that Bloat did not make any rigged nor conspiracy related posts when he went through a phase of posting 4-figure wins on Extra Chilli

 

[trancemonkey]

Playing devil's advocate, and not sarcastic, but why do quite a few high profile software companies continue to supply games to dodgy clip joints in Curacao etc, who accept UK Players (and/or refuse to pay)? - money? - they've obviously not that concerned about their software licence (uk) implications (granted they're not doing anything dodgy in the UK directly but arguably facilitating it by continue to do business such such places)

They may not - they may be stolen / copies.

 

[trancemonkey]

So the digital mechanism is not encrypted? I image a particular slot as a recipe, what you see is what you taste, you can guess the ingredients but you can't be sure of them, maybe you're not allowed to know them, the recipe is a math formula that can't just be guessed. Even if they are cloned according to the paytable, how would they make the features work and the random features appear? It may be possible that a rogue employee is selling the secrets?

If inspectors can turn up to test it really depends on the manner they choose to do. If they show up at a company HQ and are served a coffee, smiles are being thrown and they are seated at a table for a discussion as a start or they storm the offices unannounced demanding hands off the computers taking over and doing their tests. It does matter.

Maybe I should not say it but I'm anonymous here so at least I will be leaving out the details,
I work in the meat industry in a company of prestige, I will give just one example here. When a livestock becomes infected and is falling ill long before the time frame set for sacrifice, in spite of the vet genuine daily checks and assurances that this doesn't happen, they are treated with powerful antibiotics for the illness combined with antibiotics for growth, both of which are legal in specific dosages. Because the ill livestock won't develop as the healthy one in the very specific time frame it should and is open for complications/weakened they are rushed for sacrifice and if a certain time set by the law has not passed since the administration of the treatment, sacrifice is illegal due to antibiotics residue to be found in the meat. It is suitable for consumption if the quantities are not exceeded, no one can check or establish how much does this means, the consumer ends up being 'treated' with antibiotics and if it eats much more than the human body can assimilate - again, can't be established, they will fall ill, as in nasty diarrhea and stomach pain or in rare cases develop intestinal carcinoma, a precursor of gastric cancer of which the life expectancy is 5 years long. The employed vet is usually one per shift and is rogue and is sampling healthy livestock, the inspectors show up announced and are retesting the vet tests. Everything is 'alright' as long the chain is not disrupted and no particular health event can be tracked back to a specific lot of meat because it takes up to 4 weeks of on and off consumption to develop serious health problems.

Are the inspectors assigned to do casino checks genuine? Open for questions and depending on how the process is happening.



Technically you are correct again, you are like an open book of common sense that is pricing too much the 'how it should be' mantra, it takes one to spill the beans. If the irregularity is happening at a high level and upon a control can't be tracked or can't be replicated as the willing employee described, what next?
I clearly see that it's a free market of competition that won't leave much terrain to tamper with the software or collude with the casinos because the other providers are may watching, but considering the bits of a slot that goes public, everything of value being hidden in a back end, it's open for question.
Dare to name a big-ish(backed by investors and/or open for trade) provider that went bust?

Sure - click here >>

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

And to openly infer that somehow inspectors are on the payroll / fake / not doing their job correctly - well, the first two is just pure tin-foil-hattery. The last one - no idea, i'm not an inspector, nor do i know any - but again, it only takes one slip of the tongue by one person if that's true, and the whole industry could come crashing down. And for what?

 

[trancemonkey]

@Halvor you came with no answers except saying that I am wrong because of 'crazy views'. The thread is supposed to be: I ask, he, or who knows, answers. The suppositions I've made for the past couple of posts were questions too, in disguise. Many to which I've got no answer. To highlight the most important one, is why the slots are malfunctioning with no previous problems. As for the sacked employees of C grade whatever that means, I specifically pointed to 'high grade' employees, ones that are worth letting know about a cheat and part of the mechanism, not the average mortal, joe from the livechat, sound n effects guy and whatever means C grade. Lmao.

And yes, stop eating meat with supermarket provenience if you value your long term health and don't want to take on the (minimal) risk, if you/who is reading the post have no access to a family run butcher shop that are the producer themselves or are selling local farmed stock.

They aren't malfunctioning... they are just doing what random games do.

 

[Noekk]

Sure - click here >>

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

And to openly infer that somehow inspectors are on the payroll / fake / not doing their job correctly - well, the first two is just pure tin-foil-hattery. The last one - no idea, i'm not an inspector, nor do i know any - but again, it only takes one slip of the tongue by one person if that's true, and the whole industry could come crashing down. And for what?

The link is clearing the waters a little bit, I wasn't aware of that, I will have to look up what their games were and if I encountered them. About Novomatic tookover of the tarnished staff and else - proof of bad ethics paired by questionable morale. Did the programmer came straight after he found out about it or he actively participated in it, by benefiting directly or was part of the team writing the malicious code and shit hit the fan with the boss and he went on revenge. My take is on the later, fuelled by greed. While this should be a deterrent for others, it can also be an example of what went wrong and how to better conceal a cheat - for a start limiting those in the know. With this example I assume the Checksum of the slots weren't the same as the one given to test? Were they even randomly tested by an inspector? You know that the SDI number of CD Matrix can be cloned to match the original, probably a better and complex anti-clone on top of anti-piracy technology versus Checksum that you say is being used to test slots authenticity? Pity that you know no one employed in the testing because I would love to know the exact test process from the door knock to the steps and the conclusion if is not confidential.

In a ideal world the Curacao licensing body would not exist due to the lack of regulations or the lack of will to enforce the existing ones. In the real world there are casinos that can fake a basic seal of approval, buy one regardless of upcoming practices, target problem gamblers, the average joe don't know how to check a licence, understand its meaning, or give any fucks about RTP pompous description, the vast majority of the customers wants to multiply the deposit while looking at cool animations. With this in mind, imagining the casino inspectors as some stringent guys in perfect suits that keep their job in high regard with the sole principle of applying justice, incorruptible and professional, to me sounds off the mark. I tend to believe they look like meat inspectors that will happily give the signature for a month's salary to be picked in a restaurant toilet in a envelope.

They aren't malfunctioning... they are just doing what random games do.

I meant the slots already launched for a considerable period that are taken down to be fixed after their behavior attest that they 'became' broken. Magic Mirror exploit for example, a old NetEnt slot and couple others that I can't immediately recall(i appreciate to be completed by other readers). Isn't a slot a fixed math formula that is uploaded onto a server and just let to run? Does a slot needs any maintenance, except fixing graphical glitches? Would you bet your living, as an extreme proof of being dead right, that the slots are not replaced by a clone in any given circumstance by any given providers, assuming that they can replicate the unique ID making the clone the same as the original even in the eyes of an inspector?

 

[PuddleFish]

Would you bet your living, as an extreme proof of being dead right, that the slots are not replaced by a clone in any given circumstance by any given providers, assuming that they can replicate the unique ID making the clone the same as the original even in the eyes of an inspector?

So what you are asking is if there is no possible way a provider could cheat? Of course there are. No matter what checks are done there is always ways around it. If this is your fear and your requirement to feel safe then you should stop playing anything right now since its a grantee you can never be given. You could stand behind the developer and see the code be compiled and the files handed to the operations team to be deployed and still not be sure what you saw is guaranteed to be what you are playing. A low level device driver could swap the excitable to something else.

This business is about trust. If a provider cheated all operators would quickly abandon it to not get its own reputation and brand tainted/fined and the operator would loose the licences to be allowed to operate. No "lets increase the profits a bit" would be worth the risk to kill the whole company since the company knows it will win in the end. The key for operators and providers is to get a player to have a fun time and keep playing since time is what they win on.

If you want to feel the most secure I would recommend you play at a casino that is under UKGC and in games from one of the larger providers since they would have the most to loose for non compliance. UKGC is one of the jurisdictions where they really take it seriously.

 

[trancemonkey]

The link is clearing the waters a little bit, I wasn't aware of that, I will have to look up what their games were and if I encountered them. About Novomatic tookover of the tarnished staff and else - proof of bad ethics paired by questionable morale. Did the programmer came straight after he found out about it or he actively participated in it, by benefiting directly or was part of the team writing the malicious code and shit hit the fan with the boss and he went on revenge. My take is on the later, fuelled by greed. While this should be a deterrent for others, it can also be an example of what went wrong and how to better conceal a cheat - for a start limiting those in the know. With this example I assume the Checksum of the slots weren't the same as the one given to test? Were they even randomly tested by an inspector? You know that the SDI number of CD Matrix can be cloned to match the original, probably a better and complex anti-clone on top of anti-piracy technology versus Checksum that you say is being used to test slots authenticity? Pity that you know no one employed in the testing because I would love to know the exact test process from the door knock to the steps and the conclusion if is not confidential.

In a ideal world the Curacao licensing body would not exist due to the lack of regulations or the lack of will to enforce the existing ones. In the real world there are casinos that can fake a basic seal of approval, buy one regardless of upcoming practices, target problem gamblers, the average joe don't know how to check a licence, understand its meaning, or give any fucks about RTP pompous description, the vast majority of the customers wants to multiply the deposit while looking at cool animations. With this in mind, imagining the casino inspectors as some stringent guys in perfect suits that keep their job in high regard with the sole principle of applying justice, incorruptible and professional, to me sounds off the mark. I tend to believe they look like meat inspectors that will happily give the signature for a month's salary to be picked in a restaurant toilet in a envelope.



I meant the slots already launched for a considerable period that are taken down to be fixed after their behavior attest that they 'became' broken. Magic Mirror exploit for example, a old NetEnt slot and couple others that I can't immediately recall(i appreciate to be completed by other readers). Isn't a slot a fixed math formula that is uploaded onto a server and just let to run? Does a slot needs any maintenance, except fixing graphical glitches? Would you bet your living, as an extreme proof of being dead right, that the slots are not replaced by a clone in any given circumstance by any given providers, assuming that they can replicate the unique ID making the clone the same as the original even in the eyes of an inspector?

This was a number of years ago - things are a lot stricter now, and also i'm not sure that they did not operate in the more regulated markets (probably for this exact reason)...

You ask for proof, and then when i give it you, you then seem to use that proof as proof that i am somehow lying, add baseless assumptions about the programmer (have you ever considered how the authorities found out?) and Novomatic, which is entirely unfair. If a company goes bump because the founders are bad, does that mean everyone there is bad? No of course not...

Checksum checks are NOT done in every jurisdiction - and companies can operate in many jurisdictions. You can't compare UKGC, MGA, IOM, etc.. with Curacao or the wild west that are other countries. I work in the highly regulated markets only - this is my experience and knowledge. What goes on in grey- / black-markets i wouldn't like to think...

 

[trancemonkey]

So what you are asking is if there is no possible way a provider could cheat? Of course there are. No matter what checks are done there is always ways around it. If this is your fear and your requirement to feel safe then you should stop playing anything right now since its a grantee you can never be given. You could stand behind the developer and see the code be compiled and the files handed to the operations team to be deployed and still not be sure what you saw is guaranteed to be what you are playing. A low level device driver could swap the excitable to something else.

This business is about trust. If a provider cheated all operators would quickly abandon it to not get its own reputation and brand tainted/fined and the operator would loose the licences to be allowed to operate. No "lets increase the profits a bit" would be worth the risk to kill the whole company since the company knows it will win in the end. The key for operators and providers is to get a player to have a fun time and keep playing since time is what they win on.

If you want to feel the most secure I would recommend you play at a casino that is under UKGC and in games from one of the larger providers since they would have the most to loose for non compliance. UKGC is one of the jurisdictions where they really take it seriously.

Well said PuddleFish - i understand people like Bloaty and °°° wanting to understand more about what is going on, that's fine, but this "it's rigged unless you prove without doubt that it isn't" is just unhelpful. There is literally nothing i could do that is 100% foolproof.

As for °°°'s question about am i willing to stake everything on it - no of course not. Bad eggs will and do exist. Do i think they are rife - no absolutely not in highly regulated markets.

I am still yet for Bloatgoat or °°° to answer the question of why a company worth many many millions, if not billions, would risk everything to make a few 100k more by breaking the law and risking the entire business.

 

[mack341]

I don't know if you saw these at the time Trancemonkey but the rep from midaur made some interesting comments when he wrote his closing post:

Midaur - Another One Bites The Dust

• Now fraud got more sophisticated and we have fought the battles. From persistent feature abuse to actual RTP manipulation. YES, if planned and executed well you can still manipulate RTP’s and be a guaranteed winner. Nonetheless, we have fought back and closed the doors where we could.
• When you think you have done it all and can sit back a bit it suddenly seems that everyone is a winner. Turns out that as an industry content supplier there is no justification required, players can hit a once in a lifetime win 4 times a week or 10 times a month. Seems to be absolutely normal. That these winning accounts never return after cashing their win is absolutely normal also – who would go back to the place that made them fortunes? You end up removing certain games and find that your winning superstars also disappear. Let’s leave this one parked right there.

and

"I will close with sharing the knowledge that although the RNG’s are audited and certified, the hosting environments and codebases (of the games) of some suppliers are vulnerable. So yes, its 100% fair if you play fair. Just paint the picture of a developer leaving a back door open or techies finding one so they can have a good Xmas by triggering wins here and there. Surely once a supplier finds a leak they close it, but without mandatory audits on their reports, liability can be easily denied. these are attacks that as an operator are very hard to protect against. "

 

[Noekk]

So what you are asking is if there is no possible way a provider could cheat? Of course there are. No matter what checks are done there is always ways around it. If this is your fear and your requirement to feel safe then you should stop playing anything right now since its a grantee you can never be given. You could stand behind the developer and see the code be compiled and the files handed to the operations team to be deployed and still not be sure what you saw is guaranteed to be what you are playing. A low level device driver could swap the excitable to something else.

This business is about trust. If a provider cheated all operators would quickly abandon it to not get its own reputation and brand tainted/fined and the operator would loose the licences to be allowed to operate. No "lets increase the profits a bit" would be worth the risk to kill the whole company since the company knows it will win in the end. The key for operators and providers is to get a player to have a fun time and keep playing since time is what they win on.

If you want to feel the most secure I would recommend you play at a casino that is under UKGC and in games from one of the larger providers since they would have the most to loose for non compliance. UKGC is one of the jurisdictions where they really take it seriously.

Wow. What a great post, I have to mention due to my English skills that no irony intended, this needs to be run in a text-to-speech program and load when the thread is opened. As for the 'not worth the risk bit', how do you practically respond to investors demands if by naturally increasing the profit margin is simply not possible due to countless factors and a handful of releases intended to become a hit are yet to appear?

The only reason I play, and I do it for 15 years +/- 2 on and off, is because I started with the 'innocent' coin pushers in my childhood that were aimed at children, from the odd coin with value next to nothing to the successful chance of earning 10 coins, hopefully in a single fall, with value of a tiny object of choice, the great toys were never for sale with real cash but with the machine coins, forcing one to play and accumulate coins to get that particular lovely toy. Then I started to look after patterns and break the machine to take out as much coins as possible, to hunt for machines laying in wait spectating newbies. When they started to insert gold plated and silver rings in the machine you know where you would find me haha. Having been through that the next natural expansion with the adulthood was the standing and online casinos. The coin pushers were also tampered with, changes in the speed of the mechanism based on the weight of the 'belly' on which the coins stood, a visible house edge by manually arranging the valuable items like there were about to come, spending double their value to get them etc.


You say that this business is all about trust. Trust is being earned and Trancemonkey attempts? to wash the mud off how the slots really works are great to a certain extent, because some questions can't be answered solely by words that we have to believe because is a signed by an official. Proof in this case is suitable when something from the back end is shown, with head and tail exposed, this is how it looks like, these are the protections against counterfeiting, against cheating if any, this is how it works. For the lack of an actual eye-palpable proof we have to resort to our imagination. I'm not a basic user nor advanced, and I struggle to understand some worded suppositions in the absence of an accompanying proof, to evolve from suppositions to facts ala bone needs to have enough meat on it to be worth cooking(remember not from the supermarket though Lmao).

I am still yet for Bloatgoat or °°° to answer the question of why a company worth many many millions, if not billions, would risk everything to make a few 100k more by breaking the law and risking the entire business.

In a word: Volkswagen
Was it worth? Obviously not. Worth a try? 7 years of safe run. Investors were satisfied, unprecedented expansion and sales. They didn't think at their value and how someone will spill the bean if they made it isolated enough. And were not talking about here a software that is always is a control room with the benefit of immediate protection, but freely handed to the public to use and possibly dissect, which is what has happened. Car industry stringent regulation was corruptible, in places, partly because who is paying the regulators? The industry they are supposed to control, making them unfit for purpose by definition. Telling me that the casino inspectors that reside on safe haven islands rigorously check the colossus goats that provide a good chunk of said islands economies... I mean you can tell me, you told me already about tinfoil hattery when I questioned the inspectors possible collusion, I can safely call you an idealist or you want to believe but choose to turn the head away like is not happening, perfectly acceptable though.

 

[trancemonkey]

Wow. What a great post, I have to mention due to my English skills that no irony intended, this needs to be run in a text-to-speech program and load when the thread is opened. As for the 'not worth the risk bit', how do you practically respond to investors demands if by naturally increasing the profit margin is simply not possible due to countless factors and a handful of releases intended to become a hit are yet to appear?

The only reason I play, and I do it for 15 years +/- 2 on and off, is because I started with the 'innocent' coin pushers in my childhood that were aimed at children, from the odd coin with value next to nothing to the successful chance of earning 10 coins, hopefully in a single fall, with value of a tiny object of choice, the great toys were never for sale with real cash but with the machine coins, forcing one to play and accumulate coins to get that particular lovely toy. Then I started to look after patterns and break the machine to take out as much coins as possible, to hunt for machines laying in wait spectating newbies. When they started to insert gold plated and silver rings in the machine you know where you would find me haha. Having been through that the next natural expansion with the adulthood was the standing and online casinos. The coin pushers were also tampered with, changes in the speed of the mechanism based on the weight of the 'belly' on which the coins stood, a visible house edge by manually arranging the valuable items like there were about to come, spending double their value to get them etc.


You say that this business is all about trust. Trust is being earned and Trancemonkey attempts? to wash the mud off how the slots really works are great to a certain extent, because some questions can't be answered solely by words that we have to believe because is a signed by an official. Proof in this case is suitable when something from the back end is shown, with head and tail exposed, this is how it looks like, these are the protections against counterfeiting, against cheating if any, this is how it works. For the lack of an actual eye-palpable proof we have to resort to our imagination. I'm not a basic user nor advanced, and I struggle to understand some worded suppositions in the absence of an accompanying proof, to evolve from suppositions to facts ala bone needs to have enough meat on it to be worth cooking(remember not from the supermarket though Lmao).



In a word: Volkswagen
Was it worth? Obviously not. Worth a try? 7 years of safe run. Investors were satisfied, unprecedented expansion and sales. They didn't think at their value and how someone will spill the bean if they made it isolated enough. And were not talking about here a software that is always is a control room with the benefit of immediate protection, but freely handed to the public to use and possibly dissect, which is what has happened. Car industry stringent regulation was corruptible, in places, partly because who is paying the regulators? The industry they are supposed to control, making them unfit for purpose by definition. Telling me that the casino inspectors that reside on safe haven islands rigorously check the colossus goats that provide a good chunk of said islands economies... I mean you can tell me, you told me already about tinfoil hattery when I questioned the inspectors possible collusion, I can safely call you an idealist or you want to believe but choose to turn the head away like is not happening, perfectly acceptable though.

Im not going to derail this thread by hating involved here but suffice to say that your suggestion that the UKGC all reside in a safe-haven somewhere is mind-boggling and not even worth the time to reply.

 

[Playford7]

Having had a little think, found it a bit weird that Bloat did not make any rigged nor conspiracy related posts when he went through a phase of posting 4-figure wins on Extra Chilli

Didn’t he have a method on that?..

 

[trancemonkey]

I don't know if you saw these at the time Trancemonkey but the rep from midaur made some interesting comments when he wrote his closing post:

Midaur - Another One Bites The Dust

• Now fraud got more sophisticated and we have fought the battles. From persistent feature abuse to actual RTP manipulation. YES, if planned and executed well you can still manipulate RTP’s and be a guaranteed winner. Nonetheless, we have fought back and closed the doors where we could.
• When you think you have done it all and can sit back a bit it suddenly seems that everyone is a winner. Turns out that as an industry content supplier there is no justification required, players can hit a once in a lifetime win 4 times a week or 10 times a month. Seems to be absolutely normal. That these winning accounts never return after cashing their win is absolutely normal also – who would go back to the place that made them fortunes? You end up removing certain games and find that your winning superstars also disappear. Let’s leave this one parked right there.

and

"I will close with sharing the knowledge that although the RNG’s are audited and certified, the hosting environments and codebases (of the games) of some suppliers are vulnerable. So yes, its 100% fair if you play fair. Just paint the picture of a developer leaving a back door open or techies finding one so they can have a good Xmas by triggering wins here and there. Surely once a supplier finds a leak they close it, but without mandatory audits on their reports, liability can be easily denied. these are attacks that as an operator are very hard to protect against. "

If he truly knows of some dodgy operators / developers then he should absolutely whistleblow

 

[Slottery]

If he truly knows of some dodgy operators / developers then he should absolutely whistleblow

I guess it was part of sour feeling when finding reasons why their casino didn't succeed like wanted. Also there are some games where you can get to position where your edge is higher than taking one random spin. Casinos do have some games bonus banned and pretty sure most are familiar with syndicates who try to win together, not buying these backdoor theories in other mean but that.

Even you can get yourself to advantage position, it's still not guaranteed that you would win even your odds are better, often also loads of dosh is needed when trying to do it, therefore it includes collusion which you can see that suddenly gang of people started to play some slot with quite a loads of money same time.

Not gonna promote any specific game or way, but there are some when conditions are met and like said, there's no guaranteed cash cows, they wouldn't exist long if players just start to win from particular game all the time, it would be flagged in casinos pocked and game history probably tells you what was a trick.