- Joined
- Apr 27, 2017
- Location
- Remote
The answer is really what risk you want to take yourself surely no? Are you willing to take the risk to win at 25% chance?
Q&A Ask Me Anything about Slots (AMA) 2020 with Trancemonkey
- Thread starter trancemonkey
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2019
- Location
- sweden
For Chilli (and i think most games with a gamble feature in the bonus) the optimal strategy is to always gamble for the top.
Its in Swedish, but thats what it says in the help/paytable.
So i assume the 96.41% rtp is what you get if you make a couple billion spins and always gamble for the top with your bonuses.
Or 96.82% if you only buy bonuses and always gamble for the top.
I know its the same for mystery reels MW and Gonzo megaways, the recommendation is to always hit the gamble.
Those games are alot kinder than chilli tho, because worst scenario is that you end up with 4 spins, so you still get a bonus and some money back even on failed gambles.
On chilli its much more all or nothing with the gambles.
Its in Swedish, but thats what it says in the help/paytable.
So i assume the 96.41% rtp is what you get if you make a couple billion spins and always gamble for the top with your bonuses.
Or 96.82% if you only buy bonuses and always gamble for the top.
I know its the same for mystery reels MW and Gonzo megaways, the recommendation is to always hit the gamble.
Those games are alot kinder than chilli tho, because worst scenario is that you end up with 4 spins, so you still get a bonus and some money back even on failed gambles.
On chilli its much more all or nothing with the gambles.
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2010
- Location
- Your Happy Place
I agree. I'm also atrocious at math. I personally play scared with gamble features and just don't like being put into a predicament of risking it or nothing.. mostly due to Chilli..
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2010
- Location
- Your Happy Place
Thanks Kroffe. I'm curious to know what a mathematically inclined slot developer would do as a player with his knowledge. Also, Chilli is super brutal during feature buys like you've stated and I've gotten burnt so many times that it's just not worth it. Maybe that's why the bonus buys are so small compared to other slots? ?
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2019
- Location
- sweden
White rabbit is pretty much the only slot i buy features on, and not often.
It usually gives back a decent chunk of the buy cost even on buys that end up losing, and the feature takes a while, and is pretty exciting if you start getting re-triggers.
I have bought the chilli bonus a couple of times, but usually when i have collected a bunch of coins to bring it down to 20-25x stake cost instead of 50x.
The 'optimal stratgegy' is not really worth following imo, since the edge you get is usually not very big, its usually around 0.5% rtp, and you have to consider thats calculated over billions of spins/thousands of bonus buys, which is not something ill ever do anyway.
Since i almost always play for the bonus instead of buying it, i always take the 8 spin.
Same thing on who wants to be a millionaire.
I used to gamble on that one when it first came out, but losing 2-3 bonuses in a row kind of sucks, and you really only need 1 good hit with a 5-6x multiplier during the bonus for it to pay.
I guess part of the reason i play this way is because im always lowrolling and dont really have the budget to go crazy with bonus buys.
Would be easy for me to burn my monthly gambling budget during one night of bonus buys, even on min stake.
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2010
- Location
- Your Happy Place
Thanks for this Kroffe. This basically sums up my exact current method of play. With Millionaire, first off, it can be a nightmare to land the bonus trigger, then to gamble it for two extra spins? I've gotten burnt lots of times where I end up losing a bonus trying to gambe to 10 free spins instead of taking the 8 after finally landing the trigger after 200+ spins.. how frustrating is that?
Also, same as you, I lowroll, usually between 20p and 40p.. if I'm up big, I boost it to 60p or even 80p. If I'm up super big, the max I bet isn't over 2.00. I tend to stick with higher variance slots though and megaways. I also agree with the limited monthly budget. Same here. Trying to make it last! Lol
As far as White Rabbit, I'll have to try that out. I dislike the game though but love the music.
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2010
- Location
- Your Happy Place
Yep, that's kinda how I feel too. I've read that the 'optimal strategy' is to gamble features but just cannot comply with this strategy any longer.
This is why I'm curious to hear what Trancemonkey would do in a player's shoes after buying one feature on Extra Chilli and being dealt with 8 spins off the top with the option to gamble.
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2013
- Location
- United Kingdom
I would make whatever gamble i felt comfortable with... i tend to gamble to 16 and stop most of the time. If i'm quite a bit up, i would risk it for 20 or 24. If i'm a lot down, i would collect the initial offer. Let's assume the odds are as displayed by the graphics (i'm not 100% sure they are, because the free games are worth exponentially more... but that's for another day).
8 to 12 - 50% Win, 50% Lose
12 to 16 - 60% Win, 40% Lose
16 > 20 - 60% Win, 40% Lose
20 > 24 - 60% Win, 40% Lose
So, the chance of getting all the way to 24 free games if you start at 8 is 10.8%
Which means 1 in 9.26 times you buy the feature you should make it to the top
Of course, this is an average.
I have to reiterate, this is assuming that that odds are as per the visual representation which i'm not 100% sure they are...
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2010
- Location
- Your Happy Place
Thanks for the detailed explanation. This was exactly what I was looking for.
Looking forward to the free games being worth exponentially more story!
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2019
- Location
- sweden
Im not sure if Btg has made any comments regarding how accurate the representation on the wheel is.
I think Blueprint has said their pie gambles are accurate representations of your chances.
I wonder what the chances are to get max spins + max multiplier on their Vikings unleashed megaways.
Would be a bit of a pain in the butt to calculate since they dont give you a percentage, just a pie, and you would have to measure the pie after each gamble since it changes size.
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2018
- Location
- South
I'm not so sure but I'm also puzzled why Blueprint send down the following to the game client for the bonus spin on "The Goonies". I was on "Fratelli's Hideout" from the initial spin and this is what came down when I selected to gamble for 'Skeleton Organ' bonus:
<PlayFeature type=“FEATURE_GAMBLE” finalWin=“6.00”>
<PrevGambleInfo type=“STANDARD” state=“INIT” action=“INIT” bankedWinnings=“0.00” currentLevel=“0” targetLevel=“0” maxGambleLevel=“5” gambleChance=“51.3,30.27,20.6,15.36,7.47” totalWinnings=“0.00” />
</PlayFeature>
</GameResponse>
Why does the client need to know that gambleChance parameter ? There is nothing visual to use those numbers and are they an accurate representation of what the server is doing maths-wise ??
As you can guess - I got a £6 Mystery Win
(I've posted this before elsewhere but it fits in with context of what you were saying above)
<PlayFeature type=“FEATURE_GAMBLE” finalWin=“6.00”>
<PrevGambleInfo type=“STANDARD” state=“INIT” action=“INIT” bankedWinnings=“0.00” currentLevel=“0” targetLevel=“0” maxGambleLevel=“5” gambleChance=“51.3,30.27,20.6,15.36,7.47” totalWinnings=“0.00” />
</PlayFeature>
</GameResponse>
Why does the client need to know that gambleChance parameter ? There is nothing visual to use those numbers and are they an accurate representation of what the server is doing maths-wise ??
As you can guess - I got a £6 Mystery Win
(I've posted this before elsewhere but it fits in with context of what you were saying above)
neon claws
Non-Gambler
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2020
- Location
- Australia
Check the reply I was quoting. We're in agreement.
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2018
- Location
- Lincoln UK
I'm not so sure but I'm also puzzled why Blueprint send down the following to the game client for the bonus spin on "The Goonies". I was on "Fratelli's Hideout" from the initial spin and this is what came down when I selected to gamble for 'Skeleton Organ' bonus:
<PlayFeature type=“FEATURE_GAMBLE” finalWin=“6.00”>
<PrevGambleInfo type=“STANDARD” state=“INIT” action=“INIT” bankedWinnings=“0.00” currentLevel=“0” targetLevel=“0” maxGambleLevel=“5” gambleChance=“51.3,30.27,20.6,15.36,7.47” totalWinnings=“0.00” />
</PlayFeature>
</GameResponse>
Why does the client need to know that gambleChance parameter ? There is nothing visual to use those numbers and are they an accurate representation of what the server is doing maths-wise ??
As you can guess - I got a £6 Mystery Win
(I've posted this before elsewhere but it fits in with context of what you were saying above)
That's because we already know that the gamble wheel isn't representative, hence the parameters?
- Joined
- May 5, 2019
- Location
- United Kingdom
I vaguely remember Nick Robinson saying (when he was on stream with NickSlots) that the wheels on Chilli were accurate representations. The VOD probably still exists on YouTube somewhere.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2016
- Location
- uk
I'm almost certain it was stated on here too, as I remember it at that time, and I don't watch streamers so certainly didn't hear it from there.
Slotplayer83
multi-accounts in forum
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2021
- Location
- World
Really you make it sound like the gamble feature is a complete random set; while at point of buying the bonus it's already pre-determined the outcome. You know i can LIVE with a loss; loss or 2, 3, 4 5 6 7 8 , even over 3 different sessions. I just cant live with the idea that i'm playing on a slot now these days where the top feature is simply gimped out, the overal chance of winning the 24 spins is just drastically then compared to one or even 2 years ago. It started at the beginning of this year really.
I'm not going into argument. That game is rigged. Or at least it's set on a lower volatility for the casino. Either way or the other, ive kind of cured from buying and gambling bonus games. It's so frigging toxic.
You can still have a enjoyable game and no you dont have to shoot for the top all the time. But that was the objective. I was prerared to take some loss (as you can see) and i attempted it over various sessions. But you here saying now how random the gamble feature is? Lol. It booted me straight to zero the moment i press buy.
paul7388
Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2014
- Location
- glasgow scotland
Just wondering why you feel you need to gamble the free spins.
All biggest hits personally have been on 8 spins.
Most of the biggest screenshots posted by members on here have also been from the 8 spins.
It is like Bonanza . Does not matter how many free spins you start with. If it pays big on first few spins afterwards it is dead spin after dead spin.
Slotplayer83
multi-accounts in forum
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2021
- Location
- World
Lol what are you talking about. My best win on 24 spins years ago on the same bet 24k. I really would you to see any of you accomplish the same at 8 spins.
paul7388
Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2014
- Location
- glasgow scotland
Whatever. It was a simple question.
But anyway not sure what size bet it was but even if it was 10 euro 24k would only be 2400x stake win and seen many much higher x stake wins.
Anyway nice of you to boast about your 24k win. By sounds of it not much of a boast since you seem to be losing way more now.
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2013
- Location
- United Kingdom
No outcome is determined at the point you are buying the bonus...whether you believe that or not is up to you
Slotplayer83
multi-accounts in forum
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2021
- Location
- World
Great for you. Where the wins from streamers? You get off watching streamers?
paul7388
Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2014
- Location
- glasgow scotland
No i get off laughing at smart arsed tossers like yourself losing on gambles on Chilli then greeting it is rigged.
But that doesn't apply to all provider though? I know for a fact that with certain Red Tiger games the total amount won during a bonus game is already determined because the balance updates as soon as the feature starts.
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2018
- Location
- Malta
But none og those got gambling features. RT bonus rounds are decided when the actual gameplay initiate.
- Joined
- May 5, 2019
- Location
- United Kingdom
It depends on the game provider, but the only time a game MUST go back to the RNG is when there is a real choice to be made (not a fake choice like picking pots or whatever). Whether to gamble or whether to take your spins is a REAL choice, and so the game must go back to the RNG.
With Chilli (and BTG in general) they send every spin to the RNG (as to a number of providers) regardless of whether there is a real choice, however there are many providers who will determine the entire result of a spin (initial win, whole bonus round etc, assuming there is no real choice) at the point the spin button is pressed, send it all to the game client and then just let the game client play it out.
- Joined
- May 8, 2014
- Location
- chelmsford UK
And how much of that 24k win, was spunked away gambling for 24 spins over the years?
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2018
- Location
- Malta
5-6 buy-ins at 500 each, went all the way afterwards. Printed money and then they closed the loop-hole.
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2018
- Location
- Malta
My best win on iron bank is 11.547x bet. I would love for you to accomplish the same
- Joined
- May 8, 2014
- Location
- chelmsford UK
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2018
- Location
- Malta
Trying to help Slotplayer83 make proper bloaty posts.
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2018
- Location
- South
But the server could just say 'Spin to Mystery Win' or 'Spin to Next Bonus'. There is nothing graphically representative of the gamble chance so why bother sending the numbers - unless there was an alternative version of the client code/graphics with corresponding sector sizes ?
Not being picky, I'm just trying to work out that reasoning.
neon claws
Non-Gambler
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2020
- Location
- Australia
I'm going to go do a test to see if slots are rigged, brb.
neon claws
Non-Gambler
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2020
- Location
- Australia
Yep still rigged.
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2019
- Location
- sweden
Im gonna search the forum and see if there is any actual evidence showing its not rigged.
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2019
- Location
- sweden
Nope, still nothing.
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2017
- Location
- Malta
I heard they gonna publish them around the same time when they have evidence that the democrat elite in the US doesn't have an organized child pedophile ring in a pizza place basement.
Hope it happens soon, both are quite horrible things to happen and still no evidence of no guilty shown anywhere
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2013
- Location
- United Kingdom
If they offer a player choice (where the choice actually matters) it can't be predetermined. Legally.
Once you collect the number of free games, in theory at that point it could run through all the free games on the server and know what the total outcome is - yes. Quickspin do this. As do others. But you cannot do that if you offer the player a gamble on the free games like BTG do here.
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2013
- Location
- United Kingdom
Well this thread has devolved somewhat...
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2019
- Location
- Manchester
Hey @trancemonkey
Have you already talked about how slot developers get paid by casinos, or how the deals are structured? If there's a search function on the thread I can't see it.
Im interested in how the money is split and how the deals are made, so if they are done per game or for the whole collection, and if white label providers do deals with the developers then just package it up as a single product to their clients etc.
Cheers!
Have you already talked about how slot developers get paid by casinos, or how the deals are structured? If there's a search function on the thread I can't see it.
Im interested in how the money is split and how the deals are made, so if they are done per game or for the whole collection, and if white label providers do deals with the developers then just package it up as a single product to their clients etc.
Cheers!
- Joined
- May 5, 2019
- Location
- United Kingdom
I can cover this one.
So in general there are 3 parties involved.
Casino - The ones fronting the whole thing that have the end users who sign up, put in money etc
Platform Provider - The ones who provide the accounting and reporting integration to the Casino, and the back end logic for the games. So when you place a bet with the Casino, the Casino sends a message to the Platform saying 'Player X just placed this bet on Game Y, please generate a result and tell me how much I need to pay them back'.
Game Provider - The ones who produce the games, the graphics, the front end, the mathamatical model etc. Sometimes they also produce the back end themselves and integrate it to the Platform, sometimes they will even build it on the Platform directly (although I believe that is rarer now days).
In some instances the Game Provider and the Platform Provider are the same company.
In terms of the contractual relationships, they go like this
Where each line is a many to many relationship.
A Casino will have contracts with 1 or many Game Providers and 1 or many Platform Providers.
A Platform Provider will have contracts with 1 or many Casino's and 1 or many Game Providers.
A Game Provider will have contracts with 1 or many Casino's and 1 or many Platform Providers.
Most deals work on a profit share per month, so whatever profit the game makes in a month is shared between the three parties. If the game makes no profit, noone gets any money. Sometimes losses are rolled over to the next month and offset against profits. It depends on the contract.
In general, the numbers are around the following:
Casino - Takes about 70-80%
Platform Provider - Takes about 10-15%
Game Provider - Takes about 5-10%
The better content the Game Provider has, the better the deal they can strike. The more high quality content a Platform has, the better deal they can strike.
Then you have things like exclusives, where the Casino will offer a higher percentage, or a one time fee, for a limited exclusivity period with a game.
This is the most common setup
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2013
- Location
- United Kingdom
Need to change the thread title to ASK US ANYTHINGI can cover this one.
So in general there are 3 parties involved.
Casino - The ones fronting the whole thing that have the end users who sign up, put in money etc
Platform Provider - The ones who provide the accounting and reporting integration to the Casino, and the back end logic for the games. So when you place a bet with the Casino, the Casino sends a message to the Platform saying 'Player X just placed this bet on Game Y, please generate a result and tell me how much I need to pay them back'.
Game Provider - The ones who produce the games, the graphics, the front end, the mathamatical model etc. Sometimes they also produce the back end themselves and integrate it to the Platform, sometimes they will even build it on the Platform directly (although I believe that is rarer now days).
In some instances the Game Provider and the Platform Provider are the same company.
In terms of the contractual relationships, they go like this
View attachment 155468
Where each line is a many to many relationship.
A Casino will have contracts with 1 or many Game Providers and 1 or many Platform Providers.
A Platform Provider will have contracts with 1 or many Casino's and 1 or many Game Providers.
A Game Provider will have contracts with 1 or many Casino's and 1 or many Platform Providers.
Most deals work on a profit share per month, so whatever profit the game makes in a month is shared between the three parties. If the game makes no profit, noone gets any money. Sometimes losses are rolled over to the next month and offset against profits. It depends on the contract.
In general, the numbers are around the following:
Casino - Takes about 70-80%
Platform Provider - Takes about 10-15%
Game Provider - Takes about 5-10%
The better content the Game Provider has, the better the deal they can strike. The more high quality content a Platform has, the better deal they can strike.
Then you have things like exclusives, where the Casino will offer a higher percentage, or a one time fee, for a limited exclusivity period with a game.
This is the most common setup
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2019
- Location
- Manchester
Thanks for explaining that so well... and with pictures too!I can cover this one.
So in general there are 3 parties involved.
Casino - The ones fronting the whole thing that have the end users who sign up, put in money etc
Platform Provider - The ones who provide the accounting and reporting integration to the Casino, and the back end logic for the games. So when you place a bet with the Casino, the Casino sends a message to the Platform saying 'Player X just placed this bet on Game Y, please generate a result and tell me how much I need to pay them back'.
Game Provider - The ones who produce the games, the graphics, the front end, the mathamatical model etc. Sometimes they also produce the back end themselves and integrate it to the Platform, sometimes they will even build it on the Platform directly (although I believe that is rarer now days).
In some instances the Game Provider and the Platform Provider are the same company.
In terms of the contractual relationships, they go like this
View attachment 155468
Where each line is a many to many relationship.
A Casino will have contracts with 1 or many Game Providers and 1 or many Platform Providers.
A Platform Provider will have contracts with 1 or many Casino's and 1 or many Game Providers.
A Game Provider will have contracts with 1 or many Casino's and 1 or many Platform Providers.
Most deals work on a profit share per month, so whatever profit the game makes in a month is shared between the three parties. If the game makes no profit, noone gets any money. Sometimes losses are rolled over to the next month and offset against profits. It depends on the contract.
In general, the numbers are around the following:
Casino - Takes about 70-80%
Platform Provider - Takes about 10-15%
Game Provider - Takes about 5-10%
The better content the Game Provider has, the better the deal they can strike. The more high quality content a Platform has, the better deal they can strike.
Then you have things like exclusives, where the Casino will offer a higher percentage, or a one time fee, for a limited exclusivity period with a game.
This is the most common setup
Do you have any stats on what kind of money a regular under the radar game will earn each month compared to say something ever popular and marketed like Starburst? I guess new games might do well initially then tail off and find a regular level apart from the few that become famous.
- Joined
- May 5, 2019
- Location
- United Kingdom
That's pretty hard to answer because the main factor is the size of the Casino and how many players (and specifically, high rollers) they have.
But (and this is 10 odd years ago) on the average Casino's a new game would do 30k odd profit in its first month, then tail off pretty rapidly from there. By month 3, it'd be doing 1 or 2k profit. Games that have drifted into obscurity would be lucky to get a few hundred profit.
Majority of games did the most of their profit in the first 2 to 3 weeks, that's why game providers churn out content so fast, cause they need to keep the new content coming to keep the profits up. Games that gain popularity or a cult following (like DOA2 or DHV) are the dream, as they will do consistent numbers all the time.
On the bigger Casino's we supplied (888.com within their Casino download client, which was their big thing back then) a game would do 100k odd in the first month.
But as I say, there are many factors (and it was quite a long time ago) so it's really hard for me to give you decent estimates
neon claws
Non-Gambler
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2020
- Location
- Australia
those numbers seem really low... you're talking about the total profit brought in per month from a game at all casinos? or are those numbers for a single casino?That's pretty hard to answer because the main factor is the size of the Casino and how many players (and specifically, high rollers) they have.
But (and this is 10 odd years ago) on the average Casino's a new game would do 30k odd profit in its first month, then tail off pretty rapidly from there. By month 3, it'd be doing 1 or 2k profit. Games that have drifted into obscurity would be lucky to get a few hundred profit.
Majority of games did the most of their profit in the first 2 to 3 weeks, that's why game providers churn out content so fast, cause they need to keep the new content coming to keep the profits up. Games that gain popularity or a cult following (like DOA2 or DHV) are the dream, as they will do consistent numbers all the time.
On the bigger Casino's we supplied (888.com within their Casino download client, which was their big thing back then) a game would do 100k odd in the first month.
But as I say, there are many factors (and it was quite a long time ago) so it's really hard for me to give you decent estimates
- Joined
- May 5, 2019
- Location
- United Kingdom
Single casino. A reasonably sized one (for the time). It really would vary from anywhere from 5k to 50k though, depending on the game, the provider, the theme (branded content always did better), whether it was promoted, if it had jackpots or the casino attached a bonus or free spins.
As I say, this is 10 odd years ago. When I first joined the industry, online slots weren't even a thing, by the time I left, complex bonus rounds were only just becoming a regular feature of slots (most were still basic free spins, or picking bonuses). Also there were many markets that weren't fully opened up yet. So there has been a lot of growth and change since then.
Last edited:
neon claws
Non-Gambler
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2020
- Location
- Australia
Interesting, I always wonder how much the smaller casinos I have to play at are making..
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2018
- Location
- Uk
Don’t forget they are only supposed to keep 4 or 5% so it just shows how much dough is being whacked through each slot.
neon claws
Non-Gambler
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2020
- Location
- Australia
That's not how RTP works.
- Joined
- May 5, 2019
- Location
- United Kingdom
You're not wrong. The total amount of money that went through all of my companies systems every year was equivalent to the GDP of a small country.
A small percentage of a lot is still a lot haha.
That said, it wasn't uncommon to have a slot wind up at 70% rtp some months. That's because it only takes a few unlucky high rollers to massively offset the wins of the lucky low rollers.
Likewise slots often made a loss for the opposite reason.
Slotplayer83
multi-accounts in forum
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2021
- Location
- World
Can i check in a alternative way the RTP for a provided game other then the help file?
Ive F12'd my way through it (console) but i coud'nt find anything in particular. You have a game version and a server sided version, which proberly holds the magic does'nt it?
It's about Nextgen / Star Clusters.
Ive F12'd my way through it (console) but i coud'nt find anything in particular. You have a game version and a server sided version, which proberly holds the magic does'nt it?
It's about Nextgen / Star Clusters.
