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Are casinos being fair with the bonus terms and conditions?

Discussion in 'Online Casino Bonuses' started by dogshead1, Jun 6, 2017.

    Jun 6, 2017
  1. dogshead1

    dogshead1 Experienced Member PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    Security
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I see alot of online casinos both new and old are altering their terms and conditions for bonus policies. All the more unfair towards the customer in my opinion.

    More recently two that I note are bonuses offers with a bet limit of around no more than 10-30% of the bonus granted including at least 40x wagering on deposit plus bonus these are also usually capped deposits which means it is almost nye impossible to come even close to being lucky enough to cash out!

    Second is irregular betting patterns and systems. For instance if a player is deemed to have increased and decreased his bets accordingly on slots to help complete wagering then their winnings will be removed and deposit returned. This I feel is unjustified as slots are random (are they not) bet size should not really matter you'll either end up a winner or loser either way. Second to this they always certainly have a max bet rule because they are afraid of having to pay huge if a player wins big.


    Personally I don't see the problem with them issuing bonus and have players win big every once in a while. It's not there money going out it is the gaming company. Pretty certain they are on the winning side financially before even issuing a bonus or they would not do it! So risk going bust!

    I don't like the way things are going I feel we are just being robbed in every possible way they can think of!

    What's your thoughts?
     
  2. Jun 6, 2017
  3. dionysus

    dionysus can turn wine into water CAG MM

    Occupation:
    n/a
    Location:
    I'm a Canucklehead
    I don't much mind as there's always the option to dep bonus-free; for me, I don't mind the challenge and extra playtime a bonus brings - I still expect to go in losing.

    Some casinos still have pretty basic terms. To the max bet rules, sure I understand it - people would drop a 50, take a bonus and pound big bets and pray, lose, move on to the next until they finally soak the one casino and offer no loyalty in return.

    Basically with a bonus, it's their playground. If you want to go hassle-free, forgo bonuses altogether. If bonus terms are ludicrous, just move onto another casino if you enjoy bonuses.
     
  4. Jun 6, 2017
  5. Jono777

    Jono777 Meister Member CAG mm4 mm1

    Occupation:
    Self- Employeed
    Location:
    Wolverhampton
    I think its totally unfair for a casino to continually keep "Moving the goal posts" more so for those players who have a loyalty / deposit history / time served with that particular casino.

    Terms which affect "freebie hunters" such as max caps on no deposit cash outs etc, I have mixed feeling towards, I think in this instance there should be two sets of rules, one for each category of player.

    This being said, I don't (hope :eek:) think UK Players will have to suffer too much longer as these are the things which are being looked at seriously by 'our' UKGC with a view to player protection.

    Downside is that as has been discussed already in another thread on here to 'counteract' whichever the UKGC rules on this term changing / player unfriendly matter, casinos will remove/reduce rewards (bonuses / FS / deposit offers / loyalty offers)
     
  6. Jun 6, 2017
  7. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    I absolutely HATE the way bonus rules have developed over the last few years - especially when I see casinos excluding games where the player can have no possible advantage over the casino.
    e.g. Thunderstruck and other games with no "token saving".
    And NetEnt's Robin Hood... I mean - have any of these casino people ever played it and seen how much you have to invest to get the free-spins and how crap they usually are??? :eek2:

    Most of the rules are to prevent "bonus abuse" - but most are nonsense in my personal opinion.
    The only one which does make sense and I have no problem with, is max bets.
    For the other rules, I just think the casinos need to be more clever in their thinking, so they are not putting-off the genuine players.

    KK
     
  8. Jun 6, 2017
  9. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    Casino's monee, casino do what they likee - as long as it's in the termees. ;)

    The math is carefully worked out so they're an EV- proposition - naturally.

    Things which can increase them in your favour dramatically are naturally excluded:

    Slots with stupidly high RTP's like 1429 Uncharted Seas, Hack Spammer 1 and 2. If the casino is working on an average 96% to calculate the EV- of the bonus, a 98% slot will double this to EV+ on say a 35x B WR. A 97% one will effectively make it around EV. So they exclude them

    Slots with cumulative features like TR2, SMM etc. are naturally excluded.

    High bets for obvious reasons where over time (despite the 'random' nature of the games) you can 'prime' them with free money using the law of large numbers.

    High Variance slots again obviously excluded like DoA and JatB - use a decent bonus stake like £2 on these, hit big and you've already effectively cashed the bonus in for certain as your balance will be over or near the whole damn WR figure!

    I'm fine with that as long as the terms are clear and posted COMPLETELY in the bonus banner without being sent to the general (and often conflicting) bonus terms. I don't like scam and misleading shit like SlotsMagic and their lot do, advertising a '30xB WR' then you discover it's actually nearer 45x because the fuckers haven't made it obvious that ONLY those awful Green Vulva or whatever games 100% contribute to WR - all the ones you want to play like Rhino and Twin Spin etc. only contribute 75% or 80% whatever their misleading terms are.

    Considering those 100% games only form about 3% of what they have available in their slot selection, to use them as the foundation for a 30xB WR claim is plain disingenuous, misleading and they would be bollocked severely at least in the UK by the ASA if caught doing it here. If they do and you are aware of any of their UK TV ads claiming 30xB with this term hidden away, I'll put in a complaint myself - it's plain dishonest and misleading.

    Basically I couldn't give a shit about bonus terms as I seldom take them unless testing a new site. They are DESIGNED to take your cash deposit, mathematically. If you have a really low budget and rely on them for your play, I feel pity for you. For all I care they could put a term in saying you must film yourself with a carrot up your arse until wagering is complete or you bust - as long as the terms are in plain sight and unequivocal.
     
  10. Jun 6, 2017
  11. Jono777

    Jono777 Meister Member CAG mm4 mm1

    Occupation:
    Self- Employeed
    Location:
    Wolverhampton
    Please, PLEASE exclude that from your next video!
     
  12. Jun 6, 2017
  13. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    I told you, I don't take the bloody bonuses. :)
     
  14. Jun 6, 2017
  15. brianmon

    brianmon Meister Member webby mm4

    Location:
    uk
    They've recently made that contribution percentage even lower now. It's changed from 75% to 60%

    Obviously too many players were making it through the wagering, and managing to cash something out
     
  16. Jun 7, 2017
  17. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Which casino is that? I want to give it a try! :D

    KK
     
  18. Jun 7, 2017
  19. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    There is a good chance these kinds of convoluted terms will end up being outlawed in the UK under consumer protection laws, so casinos will have to stop being lazy and use the software rather than the smallprint to govern which bets they will accept and refuse.

    The correct way to enforce a max bet is at the point of the wager being offered, as happens in regular casinos. Online casinos tend to accept the bet and void all winnings after the fact, although they are happy to accept the outcome when the player loses.

    Imagine a London casino pulling a stunt like this, player bets £100 a time on blackjack all evening and tries to leave £10,000 up on the night, only to be stopped at the door and his £10,000 confiscated by security because the table max where he played was £50, but it wasn't up to the dealer to enforce this, it was for the player to know and only place chips to the value of £50 per hand.
     
  20. Jun 7, 2017
  21. Vibroverb

    Vibroverb Experienced Member

    Location:
    Europe
    terms and conditions are getting more complicated, and more mathematically calculated, but as Dunover says, all these bonuses and promotions are designed to make the casino mathematically win, they calculate that maybe 10% of the players they've communicated the offer to, will take it and with that, they'll be in profit and have a good ROI.

    It's similar to the raffle and prize drop promos, stating that players will be chosen at random to win, but it's not like they pull the winners out of a hat :) Players are not chosen at random most of the time, but how can you prove it?
     
  22. Jun 7, 2017
  23. osulle

    osulle Ueber Meister CAG mm4 mm1

    Occupation:
    life
    Location:
    Northern hemisphere
    I agree with Dunover. Casinos design bonuses to be EV- which is the way they make profit. I think having a 35 or 40x wagering is hard to achieve unless you hit big which is rare but when you add the excluded games then it becomes next to near impossible. I do take bonuses because my budget is quite small but ideally I would prefer not to. I do like some casinos that allow you to play games that other casinos exclude except they don't contribute to wagering like M casino for example.

    With the way the newer slots are designed winning on them has become harder and harder as Dunover's many videos on Jungle Dispirit show so cashing out on a bonus has become nearly impossible. For the entire month of May and the start of June I can't seem to hit a barn door with a bazooka whether I take a bonus or not.

    I think in the end these bonus rules will turn people off from these casinos. Having taking a bonus at many casinos and having a terrible RTP does not inspire me to deposit there again and I never deposit at Slots Magic due their crazy bonus contributions on all games except the green vomit ones.

    The market today seems to be focused on new players who don't know a whole lot about slots bonuses and how they actually work and I think the casinos like it that way. It's quite possible seasoned slots players unless they have a big gambling budget may throw in the towel and say fudge it to the online casino world. It's just not fun anymore:(
     
  24. Jun 7, 2017
  25. goatwack

    goatwack Calendar Time for Buddy CAG

    Occupation:
    Stuntman
    Location:
    Londonia
    Obviously bonuses will become unsustainable in the near future as they'll become unbeatable for the player.

    Perhaps this is the end for bonuses, and casinos are making them unattractive on purpose to finally focus on another business model, like trying new and inventive ways to screw players over using just straight deposits. Max bets, excluded games, unusual betting patterns - they'll all be there.

    I think casinos ought to start from the beginning with bonuses, like say 15 years ago with what, 10-15 x wagering etc, but only to select, trusted and loyal players, not new sign-ups that want to exploit it. This would help repair some of that player/ casino trust and help keep the bonus alive for those that deserve it :cool:

    I avoid bonuses now because of the ever-changing terms, all of them being anti- player. I could accept DOA being excluded for example, now it reads like the number of users that log into CM everyday.

    The simple fact is bonuses aren't fun anymore, they don't enhance the overall session but serve only to catch the unwitting user out, and the fact that casinos can constantly alter their T&Cs at a moment's notice is not only deceitful, but borderline fraudulent, and something I'd love governing bodies to come down hard on :cool:
     
  26. Jun 7, 2017
  27. Vibroverb

    Vibroverb Experienced Member

    Location:
    Europe
    that's what Casinos want to see, players still playing bonuses that are less attractive and that bring in more money to them. I've struggled with this, keeping that fine line between a bonus/ promotions being attractive to the players, from the players point of view, and still bringing in enough money to be attractive from the Casinos point of view. A lot of people working for Casinos don't know much about playing, and are not players themselves so they don't understand it, they just look at numbers and how to increase them, hence directives to the Casino promotions team to just bring in more money, even if it means losing players.
    Also the competition means that the terms will only become less attractive...And as for reduced wagering requirements, I've looked at that too, but that's not attractive from the Casino's point of view, especially to the guy who doesn't understand playing and just looks at numbers...at best, they'll do reduced wagering for one day max, as they do with extra VIP points promos. Maybe we should start a "Promotions we'd like to see" thread
     
  28. Jun 7, 2017
  29. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    They've exempted me as they know my ass as been serially fisted for 4 weeks by crocodiles, rhinos, gorillas, honey badgers, cheetahs, tigers, cobras, elephants and bears. :cool: :oops:
     
  30. Jun 7, 2017
  31. geordiecolin

    geordiecolin Sells powdered water in the Gobi CAG PABnononaccred mm4

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    West Sussex
    I think that given the conditions that casino's have to operate these days I understand most bonus terms need to be pretty tight. But my understanding only stretches as far as 100% bonuses are concerned. So many 10/20/25 and 50% deals are untouchable for me because they involve tying up my entire deposit in the same terms as 100% match bonuses which is utterly unreasonable.
    The risk for the casino is that they are only ever going to win the deposit from you while they are liable to lose xxxx times the deposit amount.

    If I suggest that the average player is content to make a no bonus deposit and is over the moon to withdraw 2/3/4 times that deposit. If that same depositor takes a 100% bonus,reaches 10 times their deposit with wagering remaining they have the potential to go on and win much more. It could be many times more than that they would of otherwise cut and ran with.
     
  32. Jun 7, 2017
  33. dogshead1

    dogshead1 Experienced Member PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    Security
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I tend to take a bonus and take shots at higher stakes, that's what they advertise the bonus as, as a selling point and I will and continue to utilise the bonuses purely for this reason. "Extra funds to take a shot and win big." This has been the exact words in so many promotions.

    What I disagree with is advertising this and entrapping the player knowing in quantity this is a EV- proposition then including terms such as the ability to confiscate winnings if they detect irregular betting patterns. Such as betting high then reducing bets to improve your odds of making a wager.

    These patterns are what players do on a no bonus deposit along with many other strategies to force the RNG to trigger a bonus round or big win. So for me seems unjustified. Just another excuse a clause to steal from the customer. Like it's been highlighted by many already. The calculations have already been made so whether the odd 10% win big and cash out and the rest lose they make money. They get a share of the players play each spin etc anyways.

    If your balance is at a point where lowering your bets to make the wager rewards with a cash out who cares. In my opinion as a business model I'd rather this than they bet larger and potentially win thousands and cash out!

    Overall summary they are just being pure greedy. After all we as slotters play to win. They as the casino offer the games with odds in their favour to win.

    As the old saying goes "house edge always wins"
     
  34. Jun 7, 2017
  35. petro

    petro Dormant account, per user request PABnoaccred2 PABaccred

    Occupation:
    N/A
    Location:
    Narnia
    The crap terms making it too hard or impossible to win has driven me back to B&M casinos.
    Give it time and I'm sure more people will be turning their back on online casinos.
    I think what happened is online casinos made too much money; so they just thought they'd make more and now look what happened.
     
  36. Jun 14, 2017
  37. Ivar6353

    Ivar6353 Newbie member

    Location:
    Sweden
    Hi everyone.Interesting discussion! I never take bonuses.I prefer to play poker or blackjack.I think the casino always wins.And when I put the money I have parted with them forever.Truth in card games I often win, I don't know how to slots this is happening.Of course, any businessman wouldn't be to create a business at a loss.But to get the adrenaline and fun online casino fits.You just need to understand it is not a means for enrichment, this is entertainment!And if you are lucky and you win, it's your bonus is.:D
     

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