Bogus Complaint Aladdin's Gold/Club World complaint - player fraud

[dunover]

Reading between the lines here and given the fact the OP said his documents were submitted and accepted, and the fact the case isn't necessarily document related, maybe he is in no-man's land; his faxed submissions are OK to a degree, but the next request was notarized submission which has not been forthcoming?

 

[skiny]

I did! You said "Making a 'hullaballoo' about every case is how we get things done" and I was demonstrating how misguided that may be. If you misspoke then so be it but I can only respond to what you say, not what you wanted to say or might have said.

I always say exactly what I mean to say. I don't type first and think later. And I still stand by that statement. Not everyone has all the information. I certainly know that I don't. And since the day I joined this forum every thread, whether it's about player fraud or casino fraud or global warming or the best way to skin a cat has been an exchange of ideas, an exchange of information and an exchange of opinions whether everyone else agrees with them or not. If we're going to start deciding that our opinions shouldn't be included any thread simply because a specific member or handful of members have already given theirs the forum is dead. We engage and debate. We don't always agree and we're not afraid to say it. Sometimes our opinions change as new information is added and sometimes it does not. And in the end sometimes we all find out exactly where the truth lies. And that IS how we get things done around here. You can call it hullaballoo if you like but it's the way it is.

You're assuming that i-gaming enjoys the same rule of law that your country has. I think I've made it clear why that isn't so, hence the rules are different.

And are we not starting to get into semantics, the difference between "caught" and "captured"? I'm saying that the bank robber may well be guilty, whether he has been captured or not. Whatever, I suspect we're kicking a dead metaphor here.

I'm not talking semantics. I'm being very specific. you're statement read "Suggesting that the player who hasn't been proven guilty is an innocent player is like saying that the bank robber who hasn't been captured yet is still innocent. No, he's just at large, no more and no less." And I strongly disagree with that. Nobody who hasn't been PROVEN guilty can be guilty and any casino who decides a player is guilty without proof is not a casino that I would feel very secure playing at. "Innocent until proven guilty" isn't just a slogan someone came up with because they ran out of ideas for bumper stickers. It's a fundamental principle that keeps people in positions of authority from arbitrarily punishing people simply because they think they might know something. Some online casinos do "enjoy" these beliefs. I'm not saying CW does or does not but I am saying that it's a core principle that we cannot toss out simply because it makes some of our lives easier.

Do we really want to go there? Is this an adult discussion or school-yard squabble? I assumed the former.

You took it there when you automatically assumed I was advocating for the player. If you read my posts with an open mind I've been saying from the start that I do NOT know who is right and who is wrong AND that the OP has been acting more than a little weird about this whole situation. I have not drawn any conclusions. I have added my opinions about what I found strange.

What I do know is that the player's account is not locked so he has NOT been proven a fraud. No casino is going to leave an account open if the player has been proven guilty of fraudulent activity. And if the casino is not calling the player a fraud, I'm certainly not going to.

And the player really hasn't seemed too bothered by an unwithdrawable 7000 dollars for the last 6 months. If you go back and read my posts you'll see that I find it more than a little strange the OP hasn't had a fit trying to get to it.

This is my thoughts on this situation. Anytime my input becomes unwanted just let me know. I disappeared for a year once already. I'm sure I can find something else to occupy my spare time.

 

[maxd]

If we're going to start deciding that our opinions shouldn't be included any thread simply because a specific member or handful of members have already given theirs the forum is dead.

This discussion hasn't been about contributing an opinion. It's been about the choice between blindly championing a player's case for no better reason than "that's how we get things done" VS being selective about which cases to champion based on the merit of said case.

I have repeatedly pointed out that this player has failed some basic verification issues and is therefore suspect. Choosing to champion his case, or make a great lot of noise about it, seems misguided. "Engage and debate" as you like but try not to ignore the facts in the process.

As to "innocent until proven guilty" I can only say that you are clearly favouring rhetoric over the realities of this business. People are "proven guilty" in courts of law. 99.99% of the cases that casinos have to deal with are decided a very, very long way away from any court.

I have said and say again that these things are almost always decided by a few (hopefully) reasonable people trying to make (hopefully) fair judgement calls. An imperfect situation to be sure but for the most part it's the best we've got. And whatever it is "innocent until proven guilty" it ain't. It's more like "innocent until a reasonable assessment of the evidence available indicates otherwise".

 

[colly]

Still?

Geez

You go away for 6 months, come back in and nothings changed. Some points

1) casinos aren;t ALWAYS in the wrong,
2) players sometimes are in the wrong,
3) Max is doing his job which is to investigate and assess impartially
4) If you think he should always take the players side then maybe its time to tippytoe to another board

 

[GrandMaster]

Suggesting that the suspected fraudster who hasn't been proven guilty is just another innocent player is like saying that the bank robber who hasn't been captured yet is just another innocent civilian. No, it may well be that he's just at large, no more and no less. "Innocent until proven guilty" is great for lawyers and juries and courts of law, but that's not the world we live in when it comes to online gaming. For the most part there is no "rule of law" here so we do the best we can under the circumstances. In practice that means that the suspected fraudster is somewhere in the grey zone between "player" and "cheat". With luck reasonable people will try to gather evidence in an attempt to reach a fair conclusion. Sometimes that happens quickly and sometimes it doesn't. The best we can hope for is that the people are "reasonable", that judgements are not made without supporting evidence, and that in the end the actions taken are fair. I believe the OP's case qualifies on all counts.

The presumption of innocence only applies in criminal trials. PABs are more akin to civil cases, where the issue is whether the casino should or should not pay the player, such cases are decided on the balance of probability.

 

[skiny]

This discussion hasn't been about contributing an opinion. It's been about the choice between blindly championing a player's case ....

Ok.

I'm done.

 

[appl3pye]

I've been in contact with Max who suggested that I write an email offering to prove my identity to them, and that they suspected me of fraud. I'd be completely fine with Max copy/pasting precisely or back and forth emailed conversation. Needless to say, I have zero emails from them asking for any sort of notarized or supplemental documentation beyond the items requested of me in November. I also am 100% certain they had confirmed both in chat and over the phone that the documents were accepted, before they later told me that my account was with a manager and awaiting review.

It seems everyone thinks that I should have thrown some enormous fit for not being paid immediately and kicked and screamed, I just assumed that the best way to go about dealing with casinos was politely and professionally, and despite that all of the representatives were completely unhelpful in getting me to a manager or explaining why my payments had not been made (and I still do not understand why, nor do I understand why it is this casino hadn't said a single word to me about "fraud" until I complained here) they were always civil and promised emails and calls back from managers that never materialized. For what its worth, I drafted the email as Max suggested, I'm perfectly happy to go through their procedures of verification and if I must I can have documents notarized from them, but unsurprisingly to me, its been over a week and a half since Max confirmed to me that he received my email and forwarded it to their management, and they STILL have not responded to it.

So, please advise me by all means what I am supposed to do next, or what rooftop I need to fiddle from to get someone in contact with me, and I'll be happy to do so. I'm exasperated at this point, I've spent six months being told everything was fine, I just need a manager review, I'll hear back from a manager shortly by email, phone call, etc, with nothing happening. I read this forum and see the casino has a good reputation, I private message the representative, and nothing. I'll be happy to post a screenshot of the private message they never responded to, I'd be happy to post screenshots of the emails I've sent that aren't responded to, I'd be happy to post a screenshot of the message I sent to max telling them I'd cooperate with their procedures that weren't responded to. Now I have the casino apparently claiming they asked for additional documentation. BY ALL MEANS forward/resend these emails to me, there's nothing more I'd like to do than comply with them and be paid. I have searched my email account in every way I can conceive of to see if I somehow missed these supposed emails, I have nothing. Max, can you ask them to respond to my forwarded email and also resend me any of the supposed emails they sent me asking for additional information please? Can you get them to explain why they still have not responded to me or provided any email or phone number at which I can directly contact a manager? I don't see how a six page thread about their practices is practical for either myself or the casino, and I don't understand what is so difficult to them about having someone in their casino with some authority respond to me as a customer rather than having to bother you with this and reading everyone on the forum chime in about how I certainly must be a dodgy individual.

 

[butterflyboogie]

Suggestion

Max, I have a question and a suggestion. If it seems the casino is not responding to the op yet they are responding to you, could you find out exactly what they want and then the op send you the required documentation? Then, in return you send it on to the casino. I know this puts you in the middle, however you seem to be getting response from both sides. This would include any emails, etc. Would this work?

 

[maxd]

Max, I have a question and a suggestion. ... Would this work?

Not really, no. Firstly our purpose with the PAB process is to get the involved parties talking, if possible, not to courier documents. I'm confident that the casino is perfectly capable of responding to the OP and/or receiving documents if they so desired. To be blunt that is not the problem here.

Secondly the OP's request and description of the problem are in error. I never said that the casino was obligated to respond if the OP offered to cooperate. What I did say was that said offer was basically the OP's last hope for reopening a dialogue with the casino if they were so inclined. Apparently they are not which, as I've said, if fully their right and choice.

The point is this: the casino has good evidence that the OP is a fraud. Obviously they are confident in that evidence and having seen it and discussed it I don't blame them. The OP has, and presumably continues, to fail a number of the casino's basic security checks. That makes it his problem, not the casino's. If they feel they've spent enough time on his issue then so be it. As I've (repeatedly) said, they have their reasons and they seem fair and reasonable to me.

I should also mention that the OP keeps asking questions to which there are obvious answers. To say "why didn't they respond to me? ... why was I not served promptly?" and so forth completely ignores the basic fact that the casino had flagged the OP as a fraudster. Fraudsters don't get treated like good customers because the casino has reason to believe they are trying to cheat them and take their money. Fraudsters always bang on about being treated like everyone else because that gives them an advantage: they get to cheat and lie while the casino is supposed to treat them with every courtesy and respect. I'm sure I'm stating the obvious when I say "sorry but that's not the way it works".

 

[butterflyboogie]

Thank you for explaining Max

 

[maxd]

Thank you for explaining Max

NP. The only reason this stuff isn't obvious is that the OP keeps ignoring those facts which he finds inconvenient. I'm hopeful that readers will read what he says closely enough to see that. If they do I'm sure the realities of this situation will be apparent.

 

[appl3pye]

So, its perfectly acceptable for a casino to steal not only my winnings but all of my deposits as well, never respond, and refuse to engage their customers in clearing up a problem because they "suspect fraud" and there's no recourse for the customer who has had his winnings, deposits stolen, and been summarily ignored and this is the industry standard?

 

[appl3pye]

NP. The only reason this stuff isn't obvious is that the OP keeps ignoring those facts which he finds inconvenient. I'm hopeful that readers will read what he says closely enough to see that. If they do I'm sure the realities of this situation will be apparent.

What facts am I ignoring? That they find me fraudulent? They didn't even suggest a word of that until I complained here and have given me no opportunity to clear up that situation and they told me my documents were on order. There's nothing I'm ignoring, what I'm missing here?

 

[vinylweatherman]

So, its perfectly acceptable for a casino to steal not only my winnings but all of my deposits as well, never respond, and refuse to engage their customers in clearing up a problem because they "suspect fraud" and there's no recourse for the customer who has had his winnings, deposits stolen, and been summarily ignored and this is the industry standard?

There IS a recourse, and it seems you have availed yourself of it, only to find it agrees with the casino that there are grounds to suspect you of wrongdoing.

Have you been told specifically that your DEPOSITS have been confiscated. Often in such cases, no payment will be made until the case has been resolved, which could mean a full payment of the balance, or a refund of the deposits only.

As the balance remains sat in the account, no final decision has yet been made.

This is not about documents in any case, and now that this has been made clear, the fact that documents have been verified does not mean they should have paid.

There are many ways to use genuine documents, and have them verified as genuine, yet still be committing a fraud.

The most obvious is identity fraud, where players "rent" (or steal) genuine identity documents in order to open multiple accounts at casinos offering particularly generous welcome offers.

My only real issue with this case was the fact that the balance remained playable for all this time, yet there was no real progress on whatever problem was causing the withdrawals to be rejected. Max has suggested that it is you, not the casino, that is causing the procedure to drag out for so long, which is why the casino gave up and sent you that email asking you to PAB here, and have Max look into it.

Since your username in the forum has not turned red with "banned for fraud" next to it, you are still being given the chance to work with Max to address the outstanding issues, and Max will be able to communicate with the casino.

The casino will not give you any answers that could help you, or others, to try a similar fraud and evade detection, so they will not elaborate on what is meant by "failed basic security checks".

 

[labeled]

Usually in cases of fraud doesn't the casino refund deposits and void winnings?

I read Max's post as saying "they think you're a fraudster so don't have to communicate with you" but... 7k in playable funds on an open account just makes it weird.

 

[secret2]

Very interesting point from VWM:


''The most obvious is identity fraud, where players "rent" (or steal) genuine identity documents in order to open multiple accounts at casinos offering particularly generous welcome offers."

Just wondering if this is the real underlying case, here.

This just seems to go on forever...

I, myself, cannot see why a 'reputable, accredited casino' would stall, otherwise.

There is way too much fraud online and it seems, it's getting easier by the minute.

 

[chuchu59]

Not really, no. Firstly our purpose with the PAB process is to get the involved parties talking, if possible, not to courier documents. I'm confident that the casino is perfectly capable of responding to the OP and/or receiving documents if they so desired. To be blunt that is not the problem here.

Secondly the OP's request and description of the problem are in error. I never said that the casino was obligated to respond if the OP offered to cooperate. What I did say was that said offer was basically the OP's last hope for reopening a dialogue with the casino if they were so inclined. Apparently they are not which, as I've said, if fully their right and choice.

The point is this: the casino has good evidence that the OP is a fraud. Obviously they are confident in that evidence and having seen it and discussed it I don't blame them. The OP has, and presumably continues, to fail a number of the casino's basic security checks. That makes it his problem, not the casino's. If they feel they've spent enough time on his issue then so be it. As I've (repeatedly) said, they have their reasons and they seem fair and reasonable to me.

I should also mention that the OP keeps asking questions to which there are obvious answers. To say "why didn't they respond to me? ... why was I not served promptly?" and so forth completely ignores the basic fact that the casino had flagged the OP as a fraudster. Fraudsters don't get treated like good customers because the casino has reason to believe they are trying to cheat them and take their money. Fraudsters always bang on about being treated like everyone else because that gives them an advantage: they get to cheat and lie while the casino is supposed to treat them with every courtesy and respect. I'm sure I'm stating the obvious when I say "sorry but that's not the way it works".

Max,

While I am pretty sure you have given this issue your due attention has the casino ever told the OP that his documents had been accepted. He said he was told thru live chat/phone that his docs had been accepted. If the former is true surely there should be a record of some sort. The OP also needs to recall when this occurred though I am thinking it may have been a case where the OP mistook it as being docs were received rather than them being accepted.

In this industry, as long as the casino states that a player is a fraudster it is usually up to the latter to prove otherwise so it is necessary for players to be wary and play at accredited/reputable casinos only lest this be used as an excuse not to pay. I understand that casinos will not need to state in detail what fraudulent act took place but if they are keeping the deposit as well this needs to go public IMO.

 

[secret2]

Also, was thinking if the OP played from different computers? Home, office, vacation places.. cell, even, friends computer?...ISP thing?.

I am not that computer savvy but I know that they may question the ISP?

 

[Nifty29]

One thing I do agree with.

It's time to either call 'fraudster" or not. IMO the OP has had more than enough time to provide extra docs, and the casino has had enough time to decide if their suspicions are correct or not.

IMO, the longer this drags on, the worse it looks for the casino.

 

[appl3pye]

Since your username in the forum has not turned red with "banned for fraud" next to it, you are still being given the chance to work with Max to address the outstanding issues, and Max will be able to communicate with the casino.

This doesn't seem to be the case. I have offered repeatedly to comply with whatever checks there are, there seems to be some allusion that the casino has told me that I need to work with some sort of verification process, as far as I can tell the many times I have searched my inbox, they have not. If they gave me some specific guidelines about what it is I need to do resolve this issue I would. I have been asked for my identification, a screen shot of my neteller account, a faxback form, and a bill a long time ago all of which I provided. If there's something else that I could do that would further this process along I would, but the response I get is that I need to change my status at the casino for Max to go any further with the issue, which is an impossible catch 22 if the casino refuses to take the minute needed to contact me and tell me what I need to do to change my status.

 

[skiny]

One thing I do agree with.

It's time to either call 'fraudster" or not. IMO the OP has had more than enough time to provide extra docs, and the casino has had enough time to decide if their suspicions are correct or not.

IMO, the longer this drags on, the worse it looks for the casino.

I was kind of making that point myself and got tagged with "blindly championing the player" so I quit.

I may do things people don't agree with but I never do them "blindly."

I'm not sure this is a "bogus" complaint either. In the end the player may never pass the required security checks but if the account is still active and he hasn't been paid, I would think it's a valid complaint... at least until the casino decides he's a fraud.

 

[maxd]

I'm not sure this is a "bogus" complaint either. In the end the player may never pass the required security checks but if the account is still active and he hasn't been paid, I would think it's a valid complaint... at least until the casino decides he's a fraud.

Point taken, thread prefix updated accordingly.

 

[vinylweatherman]

This doesn't seem to be the case. I have offered repeatedly to comply with whatever checks there are, there seems to be some allusion that the casino has told me that I need to work with some sort of verification process, as far as I can tell the many times I have searched my inbox, they have not. If they gave me some specific guidelines about what it is I need to do resolve this issue I would. I have been asked for my identification, a screen shot of my neteller account, a faxback form, and a bill a long time ago all of which I provided. If there's something else that I could do that would further this process along I would, but the response I get is that I need to change my status at the casino for Max to go any further with the issue, which is an impossible catch 22 if the casino refuses to take the minute needed to contact me and tell me what I need to do to change my status.

I don't understand what this means either, but the casino were the ones that told you to PAB and work with Max, so rather than trying to communicate with the casino on this, communicate with Max and ask him what they mean by "change your status", and then comply with whatever instructions you are given, or explain to Max why you cannot.

A "status" as far as I am aware is something the casino gives you, and is largely out of the players' control. It could be your VIP level based on play, or the verification stage you have reached with your account. If it is about verification, the player can only do what they are instructed to do, and this mostly involves sending in the documents asked for, and your issue is not about documents, so I can't see what you can do to change your current verification status.

You would probably need specialist advice, such as someone with experience of this kind of issue, which you have with Max. Unlike the rest of us, Max has access to what the casino has in the way of evidence and failed security checks, but Max is not allowed to share much detail about this to you or the forum.

You should go through your own history to see whether there are any unusual personal circumstances that could have caused government or credit databases to have the wrong information about you.

The most obvious is to check that your current address has been given to all companies you have dealings with, and that you are on the electoral roll at the address you are using for casinos. This can be a problem if you have moved house within the past year, or have changed your name.

Perhaps less obvious is where you registered your account and played, such as from a friend's house or public Wi-Fi.

Another problem is using a deposit method that does not belong to you, such as a friend's card, eWallet, or bank account. This causes the name on the deposit method not to match the name registered on the casino account, which is against the terms of registration and play.

If the details you register at a casino do not check out with the electoral roll or credit reference agencies, your account will automatically be flagged as "suspicious". If you then compound this by engaging in further "suspicious" activity such as registering from a different location or using a friend's money to play, you will find yourself in a deep hole unable to dig your way out in order to convince the casino you are not up to something and pay you.

Rather than trying to work with the casino, work with Max. If Max can be convinced of your innocence, it is likely the casino will follow this recommendation and pay up (although they might ban you from further play).

 

[Jasminebed]

The OP had advice very early in this thread to PAB. Correct me please if I am wrong, but I don't think he employed this method of resolution.

But it does seem CWG shared info about the the player with Maxd.

If there was no PA or consent of the player's parts, do they have thar right?

Maxd had said it's not his job to ferry documents, but it his job if there was a PAB.

I'm been here and reading a few years, and once upon a time (briefly) a suspected fraudster. I was not aware for quite a long time that a request for additional ID was only asked from suspected fraudsters since the casinos asked it from several forum members, all of which complied, and all of which were paid.

I remember when Rushmore were good guys, and they got hit badly by fraud rings, but there were forum members here that were dolphins caught in the tuna nets, but did eventually get paid after the casino sent private investegators to their doors.

Maxd, I have a lot of respect for you, and I thank you for having an open mind and changing the thread title.

Dispite previous posting by the OP, I hope you would consider a PAB from the OP still. Then maybe it would be your job to ferry documents if that's part of the issue.

@ the OP... there are several Birgminghams, what country are you in? And do any of your relatives live in Markham?

 

[maxd]

The OP had advice very early in this thread to PAB. Correct me please if I am wrong, but I don't think he employed this method of resolution.

Um, not so. The OP did file a PAB. So ... having docs and data on the OP is perfectly legit.

Maxd had said it's not his job to ferry documents, but it [is] his job if there was a PAB.

Um, not so. With a PAB on the table my primary job is to get the OP and the casino working toward a resolution OR know the reason(s) why that is not going to happen. That has all been done here. At no time is it my job -- or desire for that matter -- to be a document courier, especially when it is completely unnecessary as it is here. The casino already has all the docs they need or want. There are no outstanding issues there as far as the casino is concerned. So ... no courier required.

Feel free to clarify if I've missed or misunderstood something.

If Max can be convinced of your innocence, it is likely the casino will follow this recommendation and pay up (although they might ban you from further play).

Precisely the point: I am NOT convinced of the OP's innocence, not by a long shot. In fact I'm a hair away from being convinced of exactly the opposite. If it wasn't for that hair's breadth the OP's name would be in red and this discussion would have taken a dirt nap a long time ago.

What I am convinced of is that the casino has done what they should have in order to verify the OP's identity. That process failed. The end result of that is that they are convinced the OP is a fraudster and they are done with him. I support their conclusion and that bounces the ball back to the OP: as I've said it is on him to clear up his issues at the casino if and how he can. If he cannot -- and that is likely since they don't want to talk to him -- then too bad but that's just the way it is. We are not in the business of identity verification, nor should we be IMHO, so it's not up to us to prove anything to anybody. We've evaluated the case and found the casino's suspicions of the OP to be reasonably well-founded. As I've said, for me that means "case closed" until the OP's status at the casino changes.

The bottom line AFAIC is that it is not my job to force a player onto a casino if they don't want him. And it's not my job to champion this player's case because there is good evidence that he is a fraud. Is that evidence 100% conclusive? No, not for me it isn't, because I believe there is a slim margin of error into which it is theoretically possible that the OP has fallen. That's why he hasn't been banned outright. But the evidence is good enough for me to say "we'll talk when you've cleared your name at the casino, and not before". That's pretty much where things stand.

 

[The Dude]

Just to add, Max usually waits for my input when it comes to closing a member's account concerning PAB issues. I'm looking into this today.

 

[vinylweatherman]

It seems unfair that the casino has asked the player to change their status, yet this is beyond their control. If there is a margin for error, this should at least be properly explored before concluding this case in favour of the casino.

The only thing in the players' power is to comply with all requests from the casino, and the OP has done this already, and the issue has nothing to do with this players' identity documents.

This will go down on record as a very odd case indeed because of the unusual factors, mainly things like the player having full access to their casino account for play during this whole process, yet never able to withdraw.

The casino seem to have told the player to PAB, yet at the same time blocking the player from doing what Max has suggested, which is to work with the casino to provide additional evidence that could deal with the remaining uncertainty that this is an innocent player caught in the net, and make the case for fraud even more watertight.

It's not just a case of the casino exercising it's right to not accept a player, they have already accepted the bets, and the casino is disputing the validity of the winnings.

They may well be right, and have busted a fraudster, but they have left themselves open to a PR mess because of the secretive and arbitrary nature of such decisions, along with the apparent reluctance to allow the player a proper third party appeal through the creation of "catch 22" situations.

In the real world, fraud goes before a criminal court, and all the evidence used to catch them is made public, and put to a jury. This could help other fraudsters improve their methods, but this is a price worth paying in order to be seen to be offering fair trials to those so charged.

When commercial organisations cry "fraud", they are really talking about a civil matter, and it is more a breach of terms. In order to brand it fraud in the legal sense, a conviction has to be obtained in court. Unfortunately, online casinos have hold of the money, and therefore do not have to go to court, leaving the player with the problem of seeking redress this way. It is different in B & M, as shown in the notorious roulette case where a laser and covert computer was used to predict the likely landing place of the ball. The money was with the players, so the casino had to go to court to recover the winnings because they viewed the use of such devices as cheating. The casino LOST the case on the grounds that the equipment did not amount to tampering with the game to alter the outcome.

Online casinos get away with a fair bit that a B & M casino would never get away with, and it is all down to the nature of the internet and how much harder the laws of individual countries are to enforce. It is only recently that the UK law changed to make it possible to sue a casino for winnings, as previously gambling debts were a matter of honour, not enforceable in law. The online situation is similar to that in the UK before this change, with the party having hold of the money being able to dictate whether or not the other party has a valid claim to a gambling debt.

Casinos suffer too, as they can be hit by chargebacks and be able to do little about getting the money back. Their best, and often only, defence is to blacklist players who charge back losses and cooperate in an industry wide warning system.

Vegas used to have such a database on undesirable players (card counters for example), but it was challenged in court and ended up being scrapped.

 

[maxd]

It seems unfair that the casino has asked the player to change their status, yet this is beyond their control. If there is a margin for error, this should at least be properly explored before concluding this case in favour of the casino.

Not sure where the confusion here originates by the "change your status" stuff comes from me, not the casino.

Regarding the margin of error I have already said that it was my opinion and that it was "slim", meaning not very significant. AFAIC it was "properly explored" during my discussions with the casino and it was taken into account when deciding the OP's case. It was instrumental in determining the OP's fate here at CM.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Not sure where the confusion here originates by the "change your status" stuff comes from me, not the casino.

Regarding the margin of error I have already said that it was my opinion and that it was "slim", meaning not very significant. AFAIC it was "properly explored" during my discussions with the casino and it was taken into account when deciding the OP's case. It was instrumental in determining the OP's fate here at CM.

Has the OP been given enough information in order to be able to prove to you that this slim margin is what applies in his case?

Has the OP shown signs of being uncooperative over some questions asked of him?

It would not be good PR for this player to be kicked to the curb, and then somehow manage to prove their innocence later as happened in the Rushmore case, and in another long running saga (can't remember the detail) some years back here.

 

[Nifty29]

I still cannot get past that a regular player would just not bother chasing up winnings like that for OVER 6 MONTHS. No, it doesn't prove anything, but it certainly is extremely unusual. I would say that 99.99% of genuine players would have kept on their backs and given DNA if it was going to clear their name.

IIRC, the issue is NOT about documents specifically, so I'm not sure why it keeps being mentioned. Plenty of fraudsters can supply convincing docs.

Sorry, but I just don't buy that there isn't something dodgy about this guy.

 

[maxd]

Has the OP been given enough information in order to be able to prove to you that this slim margin is what applies in his case?

Not applicable. It is not the purpose of the PAB process to give the OP information nor to require him to prove anything. First we try to get the parties to resolve the issue themselves. If that fails or is not possible them we gather case information from the parties involved and we evaluate it. If we have questions we pursue them. When we feel those questions have been satisfactorily answered we make a decision. The "margin of error" I mentioned is a casino issue, not a player issue, so the player's input would have no relevance.

Has the OP shown signs of being uncooperative over some questions asked of him?

Again, not applicable. More often than not we do not require the OP's commentary on the evidence in order to evaluate it. If he wants to have questions asked of him and so forth then he is welcome to take it to a court. That is not a service we provide.

It would not be good PR for this player to be kicked to the curb, and then somehow manage to prove their innocence later ....

You're basically saying "fear of making a mistake should force you to change what you are doing". I'd say we make precious few such mistakes and I'm willing to take my lumps for those few that we do. If this one turns out to be such then so be it. That said you are speculating on what we might do and what might happen after that and so forth. I don't see that being a productive exercise.

 

[P.V.]

Has the OP been given enough information in order to be able to prove to you that this slim margin is what applies in his case?

Has the OP shown signs of being uncooperative over some questions asked of him?

From what Max appears to say, it's a fine line, so I'm guessing it's not doc's, or chargeback's so maybe we're looking at another suspected student, not sure though. Only speculation on my part but the fine line theory as I read it shows something we're not reading into within this thread.

 

[skiny]

All I know at this point for sure is I have no idea what's going on. I may strongly disagree with this casino's decision. It wouldn't be the first time. It may also be that this player is just another fraud trying to get one over on the system. It certainly wouldn't be the first time for that either.

I think the problem here is with the system itself. If a player can't pass a security check and can't be told why for security reasons the player is pretty much left out in the cold.

It's entirely possible the OP is telling a series of bold faced lies but personally I don't have enough evidence to say this is true. Apparently the OP has no idea what he has to do to clear this mess up and nobody will tell him.

What I do know is if I was in that position I wouldn't be taking it nearly as well as he is.

 

[maxd]

Re the speculations: no, not a student issue. It's no mystery, I believe I stated it clearly some time ago: the OP failed basic security checks at the casino, repeatedly. THAT'S the issue. Nothing more and nothing less.

It's entirely possible the OP is telling a series of bold faced lies but personally I don't have enough evidence to say this is true.

Nor do you have any evidence to say it IS NOT true. In fact you don't have any evidence at all, either way, other than the OP's statements and a few sparse responses from me. And this gets us back to where we were before: why be so outspoken and obviously biased about something you know virtually nothing about?

If it were me and I knew about this case what you guys know I would think that the only reasonable thing I could ask on the player's behalf is that his case be given a thorough second look. And that's what Bryan is doing right now so ... there you have it. As you were.

 

[vinylweatherman]

This is a thin margin for error, and is a casino issue, not a player one. The casino have clearly made their final decision, possibly some time ago, so what was the point of the PAB and leaving the case in limbo for so long?

If the casino are not going to change their mind, and there was never anything the player could do about proving their innocence, why did we have 6 months of dithering with the player still able to play the balance, and dithering that seems to continue to this day.

Why won't the casino just lock the account, and say "final decision - winnings voided for fraud". The player could then take it to court if they wanted to, or accept that they got caught doing something dodgy.

It seems the casino made this decision some time ago, and there was no real prospect of them changing their minds, even if the evidence was not 100% convincing.

I don't accept that innocent players should accept that they might be called upon to sacrifice several thousand dollars "for the greater good" when the processes are so secretive and come with no real rights for the accused to challenge the data held on them, nor have incorrect data corrected.

If the casino are so unsure that they have allowed this to drag on for 6 months, and then go to PAB, then THEY, "big business", should be the ones making that sacrifice "for the greater good". It would be the price paid for keeping the procedures so secret, which benefits the industry, not the players.

If players DID start taking such cases to court, then the secrecy of procedure that the industry currently enjoys would come to an end, and the details behind each case would be part of court, and thus public, records. This would help innocent players, but it would also speed up the learning process for organised fraudsters, who would make such court case records part of their essential reading list.

Many businesses do their best to keep disputes out of the courts, and this does mean offering settlements even though they believe they shouldn't have to, but equally do not want the matter to be aired in court for all to see. This is what the UK banks have been doing over the penalty charges issue. They were certain they were covered because it was in the terms, but for years they would cave in at the last minute rather than let a case come to court. They didn't fear an individual claim going through, but a successful challenge to the procedure as a whole that set a legal precedent that would make them liable for all claims in the future.

There is a significant risk that a court would rule the current fraud procedure used by online casinos as invalid, and this too could set an uncomfortable legal precedent.

Only a genuine fraudster would not want the matter to go to court, as the casino would win, and they would be hit with costs, and even possible arrest and criminal charges.

 

[Nifty29]

This is a thin margin for error, and is a casino issue, not a player one. The casino have clearly made their final decision, possibly some time ago, so what was the point of the PAB and leaving the case in limbo for so long?

If the casino are not going to change their mind, and there was never anything the player could do about proving their innocence, why did we have 6 months of dithering with the player still able to play the balance, and dithering that seems to continue to this day.

Why won't the casino just lock the account, and say "final decision - winnings voided for fraud". The player could then take it to court if they wanted to, or accept that they got caught doing something dodgy.

It seems the casino made this decision some time ago, and there was no real prospect of them changing their minds, even if the evidence was not 100% convincing.

I don't accept that innocent players should accept that they might be called upon to sacrifice several thousand dollars "for the greater good" when the processes are so secretive and come with no real rights for the accused to challenge the data held on them, nor have incorrect data corrected.

If the casino are so unsure that they have allowed this to drag on for 6 months, and then go to PAB, then THEY, "big business", should be the ones making that sacrifice "for the greater good". It would be the price paid for keeping the procedures so secret, which benefits the industry, not the players.

If players DID start taking such cases to court, then the secrecy of procedure that the industry currently enjoys would come to an end, and the details behind each case would be part of court, and thus public, records. This would help innocent players, but it would also speed up the learning process for organised fraudsters, who would make such court case records part of their essential reading list.

Many businesses do their best to keep disputes out of the courts, and this does mean offering settlements even though they believe they shouldn't have to, but equally do not want the matter to be aired in court for all to see. This is what the UK banks have been doing over the penalty charges issue. They were certain they were covered because it was in the terms, but for years they would cave in at the last minute rather than let a case come to court. They didn't fear an individual claim going through, but a successful challenge to the procedure as a whole that set a legal precedent that would make them liable for all claims in the future.

There is a significant risk that a court would rule the current fraud procedure used by online casinos as invalid, and this too could set an uncomfortable legal precedent.

Only a genuine fraudster would not want the matter to go to court, as the casino would win, and they would be hit with costs, and even possible arrest and criminal charges.

On what basis to you assert that there is a considerable risk of a court finding that (the) casinos security and anti-fraud processes are illegal or unlawful?

Members should remember that fraudsters WANT the casinos to tell them how they caught them. The reason is self-evident.

The OP doesn't really seem too concerned either way about whether he gets paid. The reason for this is also (IMO) self-evident.

 

[vinylweatherman]

On what basis to you assert that there is a considerable risk of a court finding that (the) casinos security and anti-fraud processes are illegal or unlawful?

Members should remember that fraudsters WANT the casinos to tell them how they caught them. The reason is self-evident.

The OP doesn't really seem too concerned either way about whether he gets paid. The reason for this is also (IMO) self-evident.

The main risk is down to the fact that players are legally classed as "consumers" by the courts. It would not make much difference where it is just a case of a casino refusing to register an account, but it can be a big deal where the casino has decided to void winnings.

The court would want to see that the procedure was fair, and that the player had a chance to exercise their rights under data protection laws to see the data held on them, and have any incorrect data corrected. It is the latter that presents the most risk, as in order to comply with this, the casino would have to give out information that could help fraudsters.

This case is one where the casino is not 100% convinced, even after 6 months. Usually, a casino has evidence that is sufficiently convincing to lock an account straight away, and issue a final decision to the player that their winnings are voided due to fraud being detected.

Very few players actually seem to take such matters to court, despite kicking up a fuss in the forums. This may be a sign that it is mostly fraudsters that are getting busted, who would not want to compound the problems by going to court, else they get 2 years for perjury as Lord Archer did when he lied to get revenge on a tabloid that published unsavoury details about his private conduct.

If a fraudster lies to court as they might do to the forum or Max, they could face 2 years here in the UK.

7K is a considerable sum for an innocent player to walk away from, and it would be expected that said player WOULD continue to pursue the case, even if it meant exposing themselves to the level of scrutiny they would face in court. As this is dollars, it is close to the upper limit for the small claims process, which is much cheaper and less risky than a full court case.

Club World (the company) are UK based, even though the casino servers are offshore.


There is also CDS or the Costa Rican gambling authority to complain to

 

[dadnazza666]

I've been in contact with Max who suggested that I write an email offering to prove my identity to them, and that they suspected me of fraud. I'd be completely fine with Max copy/pasting precisely or back and forth emailed conversation. Needless to say, I have zero emails from them asking for any sort of notarized or supplemental documentation beyond the items requested of me in November. I also am 100% certain they had confirmed both in chat and over the phone that the documents were accepted, before they later told me that my account was with a manager and awaiting review.

It seems everyone thinks that I should have thrown some enormous fit for not being paid immediately and kicked and screamed, I just assumed that the best way to go about dealing with casinos was politely and professionally, and despite that all of the representatives were completely unhelpful in getting me to a manager or explaining why my payments had not been made (and I still do not understand why, nor do I understand why it is this casino hadn't said a single word to me about "fraud" until I complained here) they were always civil and promised emails and calls back from managers that never materialized. For what its worth, I drafted the email as Max suggested, I'm perfectly happy to go through their procedures of verification and if I must I can have documents notarized from them, but unsurprisingly to me, its been over a week and a half since Max confirmed to me that he received my email and forwarded it to their management, and they STILL have not responded to it.

So, please advise me by all means what I am supposed to do next, or what rooftop I need to fiddle from to get someone in contact with me, and I'll be happy to do so. I'm exasperated at this point, I've spent six months being told everything was fine, I just need a manager review, I'll hear back from a manager shortly by email, phone call, etc, with nothing happening. I read this forum and see the casino has a good reputation, I private message the representative, and nothing. I'll be happy to post a screenshot of the private message they never responded to, I'd be happy to post screenshots of the emails I've sent that aren't responded to, I'd be happy to post a screenshot of the message I sent to max telling them I'd cooperate with their procedures that weren't responded to. Now I have the casino apparently claiming they asked for additional documentation. BY ALL MEANS forward/resend these emails to me, there's nothing more I'd like to do than comply with them and be paid. I have searched my email account in every way I can conceive of to see if I somehow missed these supposed emails, I have nothing. Max, can you ask them to respond to my forwarded email and also resend me any of the supposed emails they sent me asking for additional information please? Can you get them to explain why they still have not responded to me or provided any email or phone number at which I can directly contact a manager? I don't see how a six page thread about their practices is practical for either myself or the casino, and I don't understand what is so difficult to them about having someone in their casino with some authority respond to me as a customer rather than having to bother you with this and reading everyone on the forum chime in about how I certainly must be a dodgy individual.

Wow,if this is not fraud,goodbye FOREVER CLUBWORLD

 

[skiny]

Re the speculations: no, not a student issue. It's no mystery, I believe I stated it clearly some time ago: the OP failed basic security checks at the casino, repeatedly. THAT'S the issue. Nothing more and nothing less.



Nor do you have any evidence to say it IS NOT true. In fact you don't have any evidence at all, either way, other than the OP's statements and a few sparse responses from me. And this gets us back to where we were before: why be so outspoken and obviously biased about something you know virtually nothing about?

If it were me and I knew about this case what you guys know I would think that the only reasonable thing I could ask on the player's behalf is that his case be given a thorough second look. And that's what Bryan is doing right now so ... there you have it. As you were.

You really do only read what you want to, don't you? I have never posted a single biased post in this entire thread. Every single post I've made in this thread said either one of them could be right. I have stated over and over I don't have enough information to make any sort of judgement call and even said this time that it's entirely possible the OP could be telling bold faced lies and you still say I'm obviously biased?

I think I see where the bias is and once again, I'm done.

 

[LHofsdal]

If this is an issue with documents proving the OP to be the OP, then it should not be that hard to clear up IMP. Were are not talking a couple of hundred dollars here.

The OP should be doing whatever it takes to get the documents they need to have CWC's accept them. It may be a PITA, but for that amount of money I would do it. I am sure it may take some time to get the documents CWC's is asking for, but the OP has already been waiting for 6 months before they decided to persue it, so really what is a little more time.

@the OP-No matter what casino you play at, your going to have to submit documents anyway. Some may require more than others. I think it is in your best interest here to try and get whatever documents they are asking for. You have a lot of money riding on it.

LH

 

[maxd]

You really do only read what you want to, don't you? I have never posted a single biased post in this entire thread.

Ok, maybe it's my bad here. I've gone back, read over all of your posts in this thread, and I can see how your comments on the case could be misinterpreted which, apparently, I have. I still think you have a bias on this one but a good case could be made that I've read too much into that and taken it out of proportion. My apologies for that.

I think I see where the bias is and once again, I'm done.

That's not the first time you've got your pouty face on and tossed the toys out of the pram. WTF? Feel free to PM me if you've got a beef that needs airing. Otherwise ... maybe hitch up your panties a bit? Just saying.

 

[skiny]

Ok, maybe it's my bad here. I've gone back, read over all of your posts in this thread, and I can see how your comments on the case could be misinterpreted which, apparently, I have. I still think you have a bias on this one but a good case could be made that I've read too much into that and taken it out of proportion. My apologies for that.



That's not the first time you've got your pouty face on and tossed the toys out of the pram. WTF? Feel free to PM me if you've got a beef that needs airing. Otherwise ... maybe hitch up your panties a bit? Just saying.

I almost thanked this post when I thought you were taking the high ground.

You can call it whatever you like but it certainly didn't come with a pouty face. All your statements like "blindly championing" and "biased against the casino" do is make me roll my eyes. These comments aren't disagreeing with an opinion which I've clearly stated I don't even have. They're personal jabs and I don't have the ambition to spar with you on a subject that I don't really care about one way or the other.

And I don't know how you dress but I've never worn anything that would fit in the catagory of "panties" and even if I did I would appreciate it if you spent less time concentrating on them. Just saying.

 

[chuchu59]

I think all this speculation stems from the term 'suspected fraud' and its just normal that posters will feel the need for more transparency. The casinos need to lift their veil of secrecy and cite in, at least general terms, what fraudulent acts took place. They cannot simply shy away from this much longer and say they cannot disclose anything lest the fraudsters get smart as genuine players may also be affected. This industry needs to come up with a clearer definition of 'fraud'. Several years ago, the Riverbelle group locked all my accounts saying that I was part of a fraud ring. Subsequently I was cleared of all this but I dont know what made them reverse their decision. I had a feeling that it was 'Guilty until proven innocent' and that does not sit in well with me.

While I have my own doubts on the OP's integrity, I do think Skiny has valid concerns and IMO the issue as what constitutes fraud should be openly discussed and should not be left to the casinos, especially rogues who will use this as an excuse not to pay up.

 

[The Dude]

Just to add - the OP's deposits have been refunded (please confirm with Max), and his casino account is closed. Thus the PAB has been closed as well.

I know it's not an ideal situation for the OP, but it gives him the opportunity to use his money elsewhere.

 

[Slotster!]

Just to add - the OP's deposits have been refunded (please confirm with Max), and his casino account is closed. Thus the PAB has been closed as well.

I know it's not an ideal situation for the OP, but it gives him the opportunity to use his money elsewhere.

Just read through the whole thread... can't really call it either way though.

What I find utterly staggering though is the complete lack of input from Club World!?!

Right or wrong, fraudster or otherwise - this reflects dreadfully on the casino.

 

[clubworld]

Hi Slotster, we also cannot post publicly on an issue while there is an active PAB.

 

[chuchu59]

Hi Slotster, we also cannot post publicly on an issue while there is an active PAB.

Welcome to the thread Tom. I understand what you are saying but there have been some threads that went on for weeks without a PAB that you did not provide any input in. Communication is one of CW's weakest spots and I am pretty sure many will concur with me.

 

[Slotster!]

Hi Slotster, we also cannot post publicly on an issue while there is an active PAB.

Thanks Tom, understood.

A little ''we're on it" input though goes a long way to reassure people, particularly when the OP's main point of complaint is lack of contact.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Hi Slotster, we also cannot post publicly on an issue while there is an active PAB.

I got the impression the PAB was "dead in the water" because it was now down to the casino to "change the player's status at the casino" in order for any further progress to be made.

The end result seems to have been the OP getting their deposits returned and branded a fraud, with the only further recourse open to them being to take it to court.

All we know is that the OP's documents were fine, and were verified. The issue was that they then failed some basic security checks (repeatedly), and it wasn't anything the player could do anything about, for example by getting notarised documentation.


It then became unusual in that for 6 months the player was neither branded a fraud nor cleared and paid, during which time they were still able to log on and place further wagers.

 

[EdieD]

The decision for club world casino to refund the players money and confiscate his winnings (without proving anything) is the very reason why regulation is a must. A truly reputable casino would pay in full and then perhaps ask player not to return.

Casinos get away with this as there is no legal ramification. This behavior by club world will in the end be a major contributor to their survival or demise.