A plea to WMS and Microgaming

[fun4all]

I realise new UK regulations regarding autoplay suck for everybody but can you please put autoplay back on your slots?

All my fave WMS games like Ruby Slippers and the Rhino have had autoplay removed . I realise you have to be compliant with the new regs but cmon, its awful having to click every spin.

Also a lot of MG games might have been made compliant but some have simply had autoplay removed. Eagles Wings? Agent Jane Blonde? Elementals? I like these games and wish you could put the autoplay functionality on them

PLEASE BRING THE AUTOPLAY BACK

 

[dunover]

WMS Had only basic autoplay which couldn't be adapted to UKGC specifics without a massive rejig of all their software, unlike Netent and MG and the newer software like Thunderkick, Nextgen, PnG. So it was simpler to remove it altogether to be compliant. I have asked them but it won 't be for a while, if they do decide to rework their game settings.

 

[spoton]

There must be lot of autoclickers out on the net that will do the same thing? If not, I can't see that it would be very hard to code one

 

[fun4all]

There must be lot of autoclickers out on the net that will do the same thing? If not, I can't see that it would be very hard to code one

I would not recommend anyone to do that. Betfred on here once voided somebody winning a jaguar on a pontoon game - because they had used an autoclicker on a slot game months before. It is in the archives.

 

[spoton]

I guess you may be right. I guess the generic autoclickers may throw off some warnings if they have a common process name, or clicks the button at the same time interval everytime.

The guy who got the boot from Betfred used a program to win as many pontoon hands as he could in a certain time to win a Jaguar car though. Not because he was to lazy to click the mouse. But I see what you mean.

 

[fun4all]

The guy who got the boot from Betfred used a program to win as many pontoon hands as he could in a certain time to win a Jaguar car though. Not because he was to lazy to click the mouse. But I see what you mean.

He did not, if you take the time to read the thread (which is long I know) you will see the auto clicker logs and "proof" were from a slot session months before. There was no proof of auto clicker on pontoon

https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...uspended-pending-investigation.52180/?t=52180

 

[vinylweatherman]

He did not, if you take the time to read the thread (which is long I know) you will see the auto clicker logs and "proof" were from a slot session months before. There was no proof of auto clicker on pontoon

https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...uspended-pending-investigation.52180/?t=52180

They didn't expect to award the jag, and it was a case of they knew he used a bot on the Pontoon, but couldn't prove it, but they COULD prove the slots incident months before. If it was REALLY about the slots issue months before, they would have taken action then. They must have needed a trawler for that fishing expedition to find a reason to void the Jag win.

However, this is an unintended consequence of the UKGC making such a stipulation without thinking of how the players would react when game developers decided they couldn't be arsed to change their systems, so simply left players with nothing at all. An autoclicker is WORSE than even the non compliant basic autoplay that has been banned, as it cannot work with any of the game variables, and if anything is even less helpful for players in terms of responsible gambling.

The UKGC should have required games like slots to offer autoplay as specified, rather than leaving sore fingered players having to scour the internet for an alternative solution.

What seems rather odd is that the oldest MG games had compliant autoplay by design, MG dug themselves into this hole by removing many of the old options and leaving players with a very basic autoplay that needs far more work in order to make it compliant. Agent Jane Blonde was one of these old games, and had all the bells and whistles, even the "stop on bonus" one that meant the player could come back and find the game had stopped BEFORE the free spins had been played out, rather than afterwards as in newer games. For players, this is the main point of autoplay, getting them to a bonus round that they want to play out in person, and enjoy.

 

[fun4all]

They didn't expect to award the jag, and it was a case of they knew he used a bot on the Pontoon, but couldn't prove it, but they COULD prove the slots incident months before

I agree when you read the thread it does feel like the player used an auto clicker on the pontoon game but clearly there is no proof. It also feels like Betfred just did not want to pay out the Jaguar (notice all the attempts and excuses to use other reasons not to pay at first)

However it is extremely telling that they did not provide the logs of the pontoon play to the independent expert (Jacobsen) for analysis, but instead gave logs of a slot session from months before. That shows there was no proof at all in the pontoon logs and they were wrong to void the win.

If you read the thread again Jacobsen is furious he was used like a dope by Betfred and rightly so. Using slot game auto clicker play from months ago is not proof of anything to do with the Jaguar.

Conclusion
The only thing I take from that is never EVER EVER use an auto clicker or recommend that someone does. It is asking for trouble

 

[dave1888]

It's so tedious manually clicking on WMS I wholeheartedly agree! Please bring back autoplay ASAP! Also this 100 max spins on NETent is brutal too the UKGC are going a little Ott with this whole thing I see where they are coming from but why spoil it for everyone else because of a minority who can't control their spinning? These people will lose their money inevitably whether it be from football bets,betting on another casino, betting on table games etc etc...

 

[Nicola]

It would seem that the WMS auto play removal is actually making people spin quicker.

Watching live streamers and youtube videos today, players are constantly stop/starting - something they would not have done before, therefore wagering more!

 

[dunover]

SUSSED IT!!!

The WMS lack of autoplay has been driving me nuts.

Necessity is the mother of invention, and sure enough I rummaged through the missus's wardrobe and found this, combined it with my touchscreen laptop job done!!!




I can adjust it to play 10-20 spins per minute too!

 

[pinkfloyd]

home made auto clicker fail

why you stupid bird !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[wobble33]

V and J now no microgaming for us british players! What the hell is going on here!

 

[vinylweatherman]

Redbet have now confirmed no MG for UK players, and it's nothing to do with technical issues nor this Autoplay issue. They also have no timescale for MG coming back. With other casinos also doing this, it's suggestive of a staged withdrawal of browser based MG from the UK market at least, but no assurances that this isn't also going to result in a very short notice closure of download MG for the UK player, and as we know, such things often happen with zero notice, we find one day that we can't log in, and a while later we are told that we are no longer a supported market.

Something has prompted this, because by now MG would be properly licensed to offer it's games to the UK market because the transition arrangements are over. The only thing that might cause such an action is the changes that came into force last week, which do include the autoplay changes, but this alone does not explain the TOTAL removal of ALL MG games, nor why this is taking place AFTER the deadline rather than on or before.

 

[dave1888]

Checked Rizk and they still have the MG ones up. Hopefully it's only maintenance in regards to VnJ!

 

[fun4all]

Redbet have now confirmed no MG for UK players, and it's nothing to do with technical issues nor this Autoplay issue

V and J now no microgaming for us british players! What the hell is going on here!

 

[Jono777]

Forgive me for this and hate to put any pressure on but maybe a rep who run MGS on their casino platform in the UK could help reassure us please...

If we lose MG slots and I have no IR, TS II and JP etc, I simply will reduce my play massively, not being the only one who will possibly take this stance, this would have a HUGE impact on the UK casino market.

32 Red alone see a good 50% of my total monthly budget, this would be not deposited elsewhere to play Netent, WMS etc.

 

[Nicola]

From my understanding speaking with the affiliate manager today, MicroGaming games have been pulled at a small number of casinos as they "fail to meet responsible gaming criteria set under UKGC guidelines"

If correct, this is a short-time issue rather than anything permanent

 

[dunover]

From my understanding speaking with the affiliate manager today, MicroGaming games have been pulled at a small number of casinos as they "fail to meet responsible gaming criteria set under UKGC guidelines"

If correct, this is a short-time issue rather than anything permanent

This is what I have been trying to tell ya all!!!!
The autoplay and autoplay loss-limit settings etc. fall short. This appears to only affect the Quickfire versions.

 

[Jono777]

Never doubted you for a second mate. It was just an email from these guys which put small doubts in my mind.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/redbet-pulled-microgaming-in-u-k.73314/

I remember been told by several casino groups 'Yeah were staying for UK players' (Fortune Lounge, Digimedia, VPL) not totally related I appreciate but 'had my guard up' ever since when it comes to this sort of thing!

 

[Captain Rizk]

We were given notice that a handful of older games would not be compliant for the UK market but it was a very small number. Other than that we have received zero communication from MG of any need to restrict UK players in any way

Checked Rizk and they still have the MG ones up. Hopefully it's only maintenance in regards to VnJ!

 

[fun4all]

We were given notice that a handful of older games would not be compliant for the UK market

Which games are these can we know? Are these the ones that have simply had autoplay removed like eagles wings? Or will worse happen and we wont be able to play them at all anymore?

Thanks for the update Mr Rizk we appreciate it!

 

[Captain Rizk]

Unfortunately, as I hope that you can understand, I cannot divulge the details of confidential inter company notifications further than I have done - this is for Microgaming to comment on. However my comments were to hopefully reassure you that Mg games will continue at Rizk as we have had zero indication that MG are pulling out of the UK market

Which games are these can we know? Are these the ones that have simply had autoplay removed like eagles wings? Or will worse happen and we wont be able to play them at all anymore? Thanks for the update Mr Rizk we appreciate it!

 

[Deeplay]

For me my WMS has fallen through the floor. Done maybe a 100 spins on RR and a few on Ruby but simply can not be bothered click click click ... plus PITA to keep track of the number of spins you have played.
With such a huge european market Wms probably find it makes more sense to just leave the games as they are. But the new AUTO play requriments are total pants imo and something that the UKGC did not need to bother about. And actually now without being able to count how many spins you have done say with WMS it is actually less RG friendly not more.

 

[philderby]

I realise new UK regulations regarding autoplay suck for everybody but can you please put autoplay back on your slots?

All my fave WMS games like Ruby Slippers and the Rhino have had autoplay removed . I realise you have to be compliant with the new regs but cmon, its awful having to click every spin.

Also a lot of MG games might have been made compliant but some have simply had autoplay removed. Eagles Wings? Agent Jane Blonde? Elementals? I like these games and wish you could put the autoplay functionality on them

PLEASE BRING THE AUTOPLAY BACK

Good luck with that! pmsl

 

[vinylweatherman]

Unfortunately, as I hope that you can understand, I cannot divulge the details of confidential inter company notifications further than I have done - this is for Microgaming to comment on. However my comments were to hopefully reassure you that Mg games will continue at Rizk as we have had zero indication that MG are pulling out of the UK market

Micrgaming really don't give a toss about the players, as we know they NEVER comment other than in official press releases. Even the little you have been able to reveal does not match what is happening, as it isn't just a few of the older games, but the entire Microgaming suite, that have been pulled from some casinos.

Unfortunately, players no longer trust anything that is said in the nature of reassurance, as we have been let down repeatedly by broken promises, the example of the Fortune Lounge and Digimedia jerking around of their UK players being just one of many.

What players don't like is the usual outcome, they wake up one morning and find they are locked out of the casino (or their usual games), and front line CS are absolutely clueless and waste hours of the players' time advising them to try things like reinstalling the casino, cleaning out temporary internet files, updating Flash, Windows, browsers, etc. What is even worse is that such actions often happen mid promotion, which means it isn't even as simple as players being able to withdraw their balances and close the account.

This will also affect those casinos that supposedly DO meet requirements, and where MG are not going to pull their games. Players have no idea, so they see or experience reports of some casinos suddenly losing the games, and they are on "red alert" for them all. This will cost these casinos business because whilst they may have the games, and there are no plans to withdraw them, affected players will be reluctant to deposit due to getting their fingers burned in the past.

The damage may already be done though, and deposits may well dip until players are confident that this has "blown over", and those casinos with the games are likely to keep them.

Others, like me, will worry about the potential impact on download casinos, as ALL the games are MG, so if they are pulled, the casino will be as empty of games as Frankley services in February

 

[Harry_BKK]

For years we have been saying about the US: "Oh dear, we feel really sorry for our fellow players from the Great Free Land."

I think we can slowly add to that: " Oh dear, the UK is following Big Brother to the Hell of making online gaming a disaster for everybody."

 

[paul7388]

For years we have been saying about the US: "Oh dear, we feel really sorry for our fellow players from the Great Free Land."

I think we can slowly add to that: " Oh dear, the UK is following Big Brother to the Hell of making online gaming a disaster for everybody."

You are so correct. This UK responsible gambling is doing my head in. Trying to play certain games without autoplay and having to constantly type in an amount that I am willing to lose. All a lot of crap.

And welcome back posting Harry

 

[Naok777]

The irony of it all is what annoys me the most.

The UKGC forcing "responsible gambling" restrictions on games offered by casinos like Videoslots who already go far above and beyond regulatory requirements in that regard, seriously:
Deposit limit option
Loss limit option
Wager limit option
Max bet protection
Time limit option
Temporary account blocking
Self exclusion

But no, the UKGC thinks that somehow the above is not enough and tries to ruin autospin

Meanwhile the unlicensed clip joints from Costa Rica will continue to not give a toss, so really how does any of it help protect players?

 

[vinylweatherman]

The irony of it all is what annoys me the most.

The UKGC forcing "responsible gambling" restrictions on games offered by casinos like Videoslots who already go far above and beyond regulatory requirements in that regard, seriously:
Deposit limit option
Loss limit option
Wager limit option
Max bet protection
Time limit option
Temporary account blocking
Self exclusion

But no, the UKGC thinks that somehow the above is not enough and tries to ruin autospin

Meanwhile the unlicensed clip joints from Costa Rica will continue to not give a toss, so really how does any of it help protect players?

It's the nanny state effect. It can be overdone by treating adults like children, and ruining the very thing they are trying to keep safe. However, it's not just a risk for the players, it's a risk for the treasury too because if the licenced experience is ruined, players will start looking for the better experience that only unlicensed casinos can offer, such as unfettered autoplay, no banned game features, and software that isn't available at all in the UK licensed environment. Not all unlicensed casinos are rogue either.

There are some things the UKGC have left out. Of MORE value to players than RG measures on autoplay would be to make it compulsory for max bet terms and game exclusions to be enforced by the software, not left as traps for the unwary player who hasn't scoured the website for terms and conditions that may be in several different places. This is another licensing condition they should have considered, a ban on terms scattered around a site, but all terms to be in one place, with a prominent link at the TOP of the page, not a small print link right at the bottom that can often only be reached by a fair bit of scrolling. They should also have banned terms that can only be viewed once a player has made a deposit and claimed the offer.
A ban on unnecessarily long payment times is another thing they have missed. They should have taken the lead from the banks and insisted on a "faster payment" type system, with licensed casinos having to explain each step and why it takes as long as it does, and having to get their times approved by the UKGC, which would ban any time spent "doing nothing", which players see as "pending period". Of course, some casinos already comply with this suggestion.

 

[Harry_BKK]

I have a slightly different view on this. As with all new "government agencies" the beginnings are always rough and actions rarely effective/understandable/rational.

To me as an outsider it looks rather like a rushed patchwork than a comprehensive "Responsible Gaming" policy.

In clear words, the UKGC has little clue what they are indeed doing. Some committee/designated group developed some ideas/proposals and - "yep, we do this one...and errm this one...and eeeerrrrmm, maybe this one".

And i tell you why i see it this way. The bloody MAX BET button is still next to the SPIN button!!!

As i mentioned in the other thread i had a lawyer going through the UKGC RG regulations and he was laughing his head off. I am sure he would laugh again when he would read the regulations that asked for these changes.

In my view, and i think many will agree, the Videoslots "responsible gaming" console is the perfect example how sensible and thought-through RG can be done/achieved, for both sides, the player and the casino.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I have a slightly different view on this. As with all new "government agencies" the beginnings are always rough and actions rarely effective/understandable/rational.

To me as an outsider it looks like rushed patchwork than rather a comprehensive "Responsible Gaming" policy.

In clear words, the UKGC has little clue what they are indeed doing. Some committee/designated group developed some ideas/proposals and - "yep, we do this one...and errm this one...and eeeerrrrmm, maybe this one".

And i tell you why i see it this way. The bloody MAX BET button is still next to the SPIN button!!!

As i mentioned in the other thread i had a lawyer going through the UKGC RG regulations and he was laughing his head off. I am sure he would laugh again when he would read the regulations that asked for these changes.

In my view, and i think many will agree, the Videoslots "responsible gaming" console is the perfect example how sensible and thought-through RG can be done/achieved, for both sides, the player and the casino.

The UKGC would have used their own lawyers to look through the proposed regulations, as well as ensure that they were properly implemented within a robust legal framework. Perhaps part of the problem is that no one at the UKGC nor their lawyers have actually played at one of these "remote gambling" establishments, so really don't know what they are doing in terms of the player experience.

They should have had some lay members co-opted on to their committee who are active players, preferably with a variety of experiences from poker, casino, bingo and betting. The UKGC did at least run public consultations, but the method they used would have scared off many ordinary players as it involved "fat" documents and plenty of "legalese" to be waded through. We did have one or two members here who took our views and converted it into something the UKGC could accept as a proper representation, but it doesn't seem to have carried much weight. I suspect the industry had far too great an influence, and fought off measures likely to cost them too much, and they didn't succeed entirely. They probably didn't want a requirement to enforce max bet terms via the software, and the UKGC probably didn't have much of a clue about the convoluted terms surrounding boni, so didn't look too deeply into it.

The UKGC simply passed the buck by stating that casinos should ensure that their terms and conditions were consistent with consumer protection laws, leaving it up to casinos to interpret these laws, and for players to challenge these interpretations through the ADR system or the courts.

 

[Jd666]

The bloody MAX BET button is still next to the SPIN button!!!

Was just thinking that on Net Ent slots.
UKGC should be doing something about that

 

[Jono777]

Agreed Harry.

Have to say the balance and design the way this RG has been implemented (yes very important and 'a must') is a bit school boy tho.

Various random pop up's across numerous casinos, none of which are accurate with regards to the time frame (take BetAT's - You've been playing 2.36 hours and won £471.00)

Errm I fucking wish, more like I been playing 45 minutes and almost bust!

Leo Vegas, 'You've been playing for 196 hours, don't you think it's time for a break?'

Erm again, I've been to work, slept, ate, shat and yes I did log out at the end of my last session!

I'm sure the basic or programmers could have designed a generic RG tool which 'one size fits all' but no they have to beat about the bush, drag their feet and generally make a hash of implementing such a simple piece of coding.

Same with the auto play, mountain out of mole hill time again.

 

[fun4all]

UKGC has always been a poor jurisdiction. To be fair so has every other one except the IOM but it is disappointing.

Now they are demanding their 15% and that operators must be licenced here I think they are simply trying to show they are doing something, and this very public autoplay rule is just that, proving they are "doing something".

Sadly for the UKGC this autoplay rule is poorly thought out, helps absolutely nobody (operators, normal players, vulnerable players) and is merely a big annoyance. They are doing nothing to help anybody here and merely look ham fisted and having no experience of the industry to anybody with any sense.

If responsible gaming was their thing and they really did want to help vulnerable players there are a myriad of reasonable regulations they could have implemented. Instead we get this useless annoyance.

 

[Jono777]

Just this minute logged in, I rest my case

 

[vinylweatherman]

These wildly inaccurate RG popups need to be addressed as they are clearly a glitch, but one that could cause casinos to fall foul of their licensing conditions. If the UKGC had co-opted some players onto a committee, they would already know this, probably from the laughter coming from the committee room

One of their regulations states that operators "cannot be held responsible if players hide their clocks", so it probably follows that they can't be held responsible if after implementing the autoplay rules, players simply buy a fancy gaming mouse with "auto fire" and use this instead. This would not be AI or a bot, nor even the vague "prohibited software", it would be a mouse that is freely available and is intended for gamers.

 

[Harry_BKK]

The UKGC would have used their own lawyers to look through the proposed regulations, as well as ensure that they were properly implemented within a robust legal framework. Perhaps part of the problem is that no one at the UKGC nor their lawyers have actually played at one of these "remote gambling" establishments, so really don't know what they are doing in terms of the player experience.

They should have had some lay members co-opted on to their committee who are active players, preferably with a variety of experiences from poker, casino, bingo and betting. The UKGC did at least run public consultations, but the method they used would have scared off many ordinary players as it involved "fat" documents and plenty of "legalese" to be waded through. We did have one or two members here who took our views and converted it into something the UKGC could accept as a proper representation, but it doesn't seem to have carried much weight. I suspect the industry had far too great an influence, and fought off measures likely to cost them too much, and they didn't succeed entirely. They probably didn't want a requirement to enforce max bet terms via the software, and the UKGC probably didn't have much of a clue about the convoluted terms surrounding boni, so didn't look too deeply into it.

The UKGC simply passed the buck by stating that casinos should ensure that their terms and conditions were consistent with consumer protection laws, leaving it up to casinos to interpret these laws, and for players to challenge these interpretations through the ADR system or the courts.

With all due respect VWM, i gave the UKGC RG regulations to a lawyer specialized in contract law and got the copy back full of RED markings, really totally full. Each highlighted either a loophole, a missing word/expression, partial explanation etc etc. It was just hilarious to see that, literally i could not believe what i was seeing. And i had 100's if not 1000's of sale/project contracts in front of me in my life, each 20 - 114 pages long, where the "legal spiel" was much more exhaustive than the scope of supply.

Hence, in my view, the legal advice the UKGC took, if they really did, was not worth a penny they paid for it. My lawyer said and i quote his letter: "I wish to have only once in my life such an easy case where these regulations are part of the court proceedings."

But I agree with you, the big casino operators/software providers/lobbyists had their hands in this and made well sure the regulations are rather a farce than something firm, especially on "Responsible Gaming" or "Social Responsibility Code Provision" as they call it.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Agreed Harry.

Have to say the balance and design the way this RG has been implemented (yes very important and 'a must') is a bit school boy tho.

Various random pop up's across numerous casinos, none of which are accurate with regards to the time frame (take BetAT's - You've been playing 2.36 hours and won £471.00)

Errm I fucking wish, more like I been playing 45 minutes and almost bust!

Leo Vegas, 'You've been playing for 196 hours, don't you think it's time for a break?'

Erm again, I've been to work, slept, ate, shat and yes I did log out at the end of my last session!

I'm sure the basic or programmers could have designed a generic RG tool which 'one size fits all' but no they have to beat about the bush, drag their feet and generally make a hash of implementing such a simple piece of coding.

Same with the auto play, mountain out of mole hill time again.

LMAO Jon ... :clap:

I find Rizk the worst (sorry to say this Captain), they just log you out in the middle of a spin!!!

 

[vinylweatherman]

With all due respect VWM, i gave the UKGC RG regulations to a lawyer specialized in contract law and got the copy back full of RED markings, really totally full. Each highlighted either a loophole, a missing word/expression, partial explanation etc etc. It was just hilarious to see that, literally i could not believe what i was seeing. And i had 100's if not 1000's of sale/project contracts in front of me in my life, each 20 - 114 pages long, where the "legal spiel" was much more exhaustive than the scope of supply.

Hence, in my view, the legal advice the UKGC took, if they really did, was not worth a penny they paid for it. My lawyer said and i quote his letter: "I wish to have only once in my life such an easy case where these regulations are part of the court proceedings."

But I agree with you, the big casino operators/software providers/lobbyists had their hands in this and made well sure the regulations are rather a farce than something firm, especially on "Responsible Gaming" or "Social Responsibility Code Provision" as they call it.

Well, the UKGC won't talk to you, but if they have another of those public consultations, maybe a UK player could submit your red marked contribution to it in their name to see if they take it rather more seriously.

Government bodies often find themselves out of their depth when it comes to loophole exploitation. The tax laws are a great example, for every loophole they shut, two more are found by smart lawyers and accountants. This is despite the tax code now being almost the size of the Encyclopaedia Britannica.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Well, the UKGC won't talk to you, but if they have another of those public consultations, maybe a UK player could submit your red marked contribution to it in their name to see if they take it rather more seriously.

Government bodies often find themselves out of their depth when it comes to loophole exploitation. The tax laws are a great example, for every loophole they shut, two more are found by smart lawyers and accountants. This is despite the tax code now being almost the size of the Encyclopaedia Britannica.

Firstly, I doubt they would listen to us "low lives of players", they never did, nor can i remember that any other jurisdiction has. The weight of the casino industry is just so huge, they would surely be there to grind down any potential changes not favorable to the casino operators.

Secondly, I didn't spent the money to do this for the UKGC (they got a budget in the millions), I wanted my own peace of mind regarding the RG regulations and get closure on the 32RED case, which i did.

 

[Deeplay]

In my view, and i think many will agree, the Videoslots "responsible gaming" console is the perfect example how sensible and thought-through RG can be done/achieved, for both sides, the player and the casino.

Agreed Videoslots have it bang on right as do Royal Panda - easy to implement and control. And instant. Only difference between the 2 is Royal panda you can up your deposit limit after 24 hours / videoslots it takes 7 days.

I am totally fine with both of the above options for deposit limit increases. I still feel the UKGC will in the end get it right but its going to take time, and lots of trial and error. I get the feeling they are learning as they go along.

As for if UK players are better off with the UKGC now in full swing or not - well this has yet to be seen I think.