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A perfect rigged slot - this is how you make it!

Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
Norway
To make my words a little easier to understand, let me write a logical example. This could be programming in any language, however I hope you have a basic understanding on how programming works - and this example would only be the low-end logic oversight.

Proove my logic wrong - how would you detect that this system was rigged?

Basic assumption of a slot:

PHP:
function slot(){
  get_numbers();
  compute_spin();
  update_balance();
  update_graphics_with_numbers();
}

function get_numbers(){
  // Return random numbers
}
function compute_spin(){
  // Calculate if the spin is a win or not
}
function update_balance(){
  // new bank balance
}
function update_graphics_with_numbers(){
  // Updates the GUI, what we persieve as the game infront of us.
}
Also - note that the get_numbers(); function is most likely proprietary, and inside a company like MG this function
is most likely only known by a few. We will never know the story here, we will only know the outcome...

However we already know that all your history is stored by the playcheck data. If you ever asked CS for a dumpt of your data
you will see thay have a nice overview on lots of % payouts, deposits, manager bonus +++ at their disposal. So infact - the
system already have all the calculated stuff freely available at their need, so It is fairly easy to tweak the system
and still it is impossible to detect the rigged system.

Let's assume we tweak the get_numbers() to something like this:

PHP:
function get_numbers(){
  //This function is really extended by the really_get_numers()
  // Remember this function is proprietary, so nobody knows what is happening
  // here. It might aswell be something as this.
  // New logic in place is:
  var userstate = compute_play_mode(); // Three states: default, loser and winner
  if(userstate == winner)
    var maxwin = compute_winner_max_win();

  if(userstate==default)
    return really_get_numers();
    
  var rnd = really_get_numers();
  var win = calculate_winX_compared_to_bet_size();

  if(userstate==winner AND win >= maxwin){
    return really_get_numers();    
  } else if(userstate==loser  AND !win){
    return really_get_numers(); 
  } else {
    return rnd;
  }
}
function compute_play_mode(){
  // Poll earlier playing data and descide if we have a winner or a loser
  // at the moment. This would be a complicated part of the system with
  // alot of weighted triggers depending on this and that. However the
  // general idea is here.
}
function compute_winner_max_win(){
  // Calculate, depending on previous function what wins we will ignore if
  // they would occure.
}

function really_get_numers(){
  // Return random numbers
}
This would be perfect for audit, peferct for all since all numbers are 100% random in the players end.
However you clearly see that the system is rigged, and the casino assures steady players getting more luck when
losing and harder time when winning! In the end a quicker way to meet expected 95%.
 
I think everyone understands that it would be incredibly easy for software companies to incorporate this type of rigging into their codes and be totally undetectable to anyone playing the games.


Speaking of rigging; I spotted something VERY worrying last night when I played MGs new Wealth Spa slot;
Previously most here accepted that MG bonus slots produce totally random spins - both in normal play, and in free-spin mode. But this one actually states that this is not the case.
So is it a slot, or is it an AWP? :confused:
I can't see anywhere where is says it is an AWP...

Old Attachment (Invalid)
Old Attachment (Invalid)

By the way, for anyone thinking of trying this slot, it took me 543 spins, 222.20 in wagers & nearly 70 down to get this bonus. It gave me 16 free-spins which returned 97.20 on a 1 spin.
Oh, and it's possibly the most BORING slot MG have ever made!

KK
 
Speaking of rigging; I spotted something VERY worrying last night when I played MGs new Wealth Spa slot;
Previously most here accepted that MG bonus slots produce totally random spins - both in normal play, and in free-spin mode. But this one actually states that this is not the case.

Derailing in first reply... Typical!

Anyway, this slot obviously take advantage of excactly what I am assuming above! When and where the coins appear are abviously connected to your previous play. Just like picking all the first coins at $0.01 and getting the freeplay at max lines... Go figure! I am not even referring to the possible outcome, but the accual outcome from the spins at winning combinations from a "cheap bonus" compared to an "expensive" bonus.

I have my own statistical graphed outcome from quite a few runs on this machine, just as with tomb raider. It's weighted all the way to the bank. I wonder why you are even confused to be honest. (It's no news either, the MG system itself have weighting already in place on several slots, so why not take advantage of the existing system...)
 
I'm not a slots player on a regular basis, but I've tried some in the past. It would be safe to say that with programming everything is possible, no secret there.

From what I've played, the inconsistency that I could see was between betsize. I'm not surprised or anything by rigged slots, they did that with the real slot machines too right? Paying out whenever the balance was at a certain positive amount.

Anyway I'm no genius on this subject, but I'm sure its controled in some way or another.
 
KimSS,

With all due respect, but what you suggest in your post would be detected by even the most naive test, and there is no way on earth that it would pass the die-hard tests (by Marsaglia), that are industry standard today for randomness testing.

In fact the algorithm you suggest would fail nearly _every_ test in the die-hard test battery. And if I'd have to think of a specific test to disprove randomness in the scenario I think you suggest it would be to plot out the distribution of the distance between wins of a certain size - which should be normally distributed with characteristic mean and sigma. (and it most certainly wont.)

Furthermore, to pass any type of certification, it are exactly the pieces of code that draw the random numbers _AND_ their calls from the game logic that are being certified and fingerprinted. No self respecting auditing company would certify any RNG without reviewing exactly those parts.



KK,

If I'm not mistaking, this concept was introduced by MG before - don't remember which slot, maybe it was TR2? Either way, since this feature will actually be triggered over multiple spins, it is an obvious solution to players stacking up 'triggers' on lowest stake and switching to higher stakes when they have only one trigger left to go. I would assume it takes the average bet of the actual spins that get you the triggers, not all spins inbetween, and rewards freespins based on that. Since it were in fact e.g. 5 bets that started that feature, it seems like a fair solution to me to say you get free spins at (total bet over those 5 triggering spins)/5.

Cheers,

Enzo
 
To make my words a little easier to understand, let me write a logical example. This could be programming in any language, however I hope you have a basic understanding on how programming works - and this example would only be the low-end logic oversight.

This would be perfect for audit, peferct for all since all numbers are 100% random in the players end.
However you clearly see that the system is rigged, and the casino assures steady players getting more luck when
losing and harder time when winning! In the end a quicker way to meet expected 95%.


So basically what you are saying is that when the player is losing, the machine will toss them some wins, and when they are winning, the machine will win it back?

What's the point?

The casino doesn't want to meet expected 95%. Why would it? Some players will win $50,000, great, they flash it up next time you login 'XY from Z-Town won $50,000 playing MegaSlot - why not try your luck'?

Over an extended period of time the casino will achieve an actual % win that's more and more likely to be very close to the theoretical win. There will be a little noise and random variation along the way of course, but it's nothing to worry about.
 
@Enzo

Lovely to see an answer by someone in the business! Thanks for this.

I would assume it takes the average bet of the actual spins that get you the triggers, not all spins inbetween, and rewards freespins based on that. Since it were in fact e.g. 5 bets that started that feature, it seems like a fair solution to me to say you get free spins at (total bet over those 5 triggering spins)/5.

I bet you do. While this sounds like a grest explernation and a logical one to, acctual gameplay contradicts it. What you are saying is that getting the 5 triggers on a $0.60 bet would normally be a good win, atleast could be. I would say that usually if you lose a lot inbetween you complete the feature! If you manage to get tham luckily fast (ctalking about the triggers not the spins in between) you get LOSE in first two ones! If you keep playing this slot, and keep track of notes (or even my sweet graphs) you cant help feeling you always get beat on the finnish line... Sopme magical unluck, always in favour of the computer.

Regarding your comments on my quick system, are you saying that when Marsaglia are doing tests they are infact reviewing the RNG engine? Do they get access to the accuall code? Are 3Dice code reviewed?

My above example is failry an easy example, you could easy add skewing of luck - and you could also add it only sometimes - randomly. Are you telling me that this is impossible to do, it sounds very easy to me to fool a die hard test with some fuzzy logic accompanied with some random triggers.

To be honest, I am sure I can fool this test myself, die hard or not! I am sure I can produce a million spins for you and you will not be able to tell me that this is rigged, however I will be able to skew the end result being either lucky or unlucky! Cause that is the problem here, it is possible to be lucky and unlucky within the realm of random.
 
So basically what you are saying is that when the player is losing, the machine will toss them some wins, and when they are winning, the machine will win it back?

Not quite...

The system doesnt toss wins really, the system could forget that spin and give you another try without you knowing - thus doubling your chance of infact getting a win, that doesnt mean you get one. A lucky streak. It's still 100% random ironically.

(The system checks if you win, and if you didnt discard the result and give you a new random spin instead. If you win or not is beside the point at this stage, the system has just randomly doubled your chance of winning).

Surely there cannot be a pattern on how this is applied, but this is only dynamics really, how you apply your code and is beside the point and when it triggers and with what weight it triggers. The point is it is extremely easy to throw some luck at the player, or on the other hand - take away some luck.
 
About Wealth Spa - the "average bet" during free spins is there to prevent abuse by getting the first four coins at minimal bet then the fifth one at a more higher bet - like Tomb Raider II and the five passports to collect - quite fair to make this , i'd say. (It seems that the "average bet" is (sum of ALL bets placed from first spin to last coin earned)/(number of spins) )

For the second mine , it's there to avoid the case of a disappointing zilch win after collecting all the five coins (quite an upgrade from TR II) that would be very likely to make the player angry and leaving the casino.
 
KimSS,

With all due respect, but what you suggest in your post would be detected by even the most naive test, and there is no way on earth that it would pass the die-hard tests (by Marsaglia), that are industry standard today for randomness testing.

In fact the algorithm you suggest would fail nearly _every_ test in the die-hard test battery. And if I'd have to think of a specific test to disprove randomness in the scenario I think you suggest it would be to plot out the distribution of the distance between wins of a certain size - which should be normally distributed with characteristic mean and sigma. (and it most certainly wont.)

Furthermore, to pass any type of certification, it are exactly the pieces of code that draw the random numbers _AND_ their calls from the game logic that are being certified and fingerprinted. No self respecting auditing company would certify any RNG without reviewing exactly those parts.

Hmm, I've never seen any credible claims by a casino that their code is sufficently well audited to guarantee against cheating. Not that I'm alleging that they are cheating, just that I don't think the 'we are random' audits prove much.

I had a look at your site, and it doesn't say much

"How can I be sure the games are fair?
All software has met strict criteria to guarantee fairness for our users."

'Strict criteria' is a completely empty claim that means nothing.

Intercasino makes more specific claims, which are among the most specific I've seen:

Old / Expired Link


"2.How can you prove that the numbers generated on InterCasino are completely random?

A random number generator is used to determine the outcome of all our games.

The algorithms in the random number generator have been proved to conform to results of similar games found in Atlantic City (with respect to randomness and payout frequency), in line with our license requirements.

In some games the rules differ slightly from the Atlantic City rules. For example, in some card games, the deck is shuffled after every hand. Any exceptions from Atlantic City rules and regulations are noted in the game rules section of the website.

A typical test of the current version of the random number generator involves a sequence of 300,000,000 (three hundred million) numbers.

The random number generator is tested on an ongoing basis to ensure its continued fairness.

A typical test of each game involves a sample size of between 1,000,000 (one million) and 10,000,000 (ten million) bets. If the frequency of winning combinations and general payouts are within expectations, the game is passed to a Quality Assurance team of engineers who play the game (with the real gaming server) until they are sure that the game is flawless.

Based on these tests, the algorithm for each game has been found to be fair.

The software has also been independently tested and certified by an international gaming-testing house to ensure it is fair and completely random.
"

Exactly what the international gaming-testing house has tested isn't made clear, but I'm assuming it's the RNG only.

A later statement appears to confirm that:

"Each game at InterCasino undergoes extensive testing. First, we imitate all possible situations and determine whether the rules are obeyed, payouts are properly paid, etc.

The random number generator is then added and tests are run with automated agents. For games which involve strategy (blackjack, poker, etc.), the optimal strategy is implemented, and for games of chance (red dog, baccarat etc.) a random bet choice is implemented. Depending on the game, between 1 and 10 million bets are run.

If the frequency of winning combinations and general payouts are within expectations, the game is passed to a Quality Assurance team of engineers who play that game to insure its flawless play.
"
In other words, while the RNG is assured to be fair, the game testing is strictly in-house; similarly, I seriously do not believe that Microgaming send each of the slots they spew out each month off to be externally audited before release.

And the payout audit would not appear to be much of a guarantee either:

"10.Are InterCasino payouts reviewed by a third party?

Yes. With one of the world's leading global accountancy firms, provides a monthly review of InterCasino's payout percentage. They examine the data log files for each month and certify the average payout percentage by game.
"

They are certifying payout percentage. Not really rocket science. Intercasino's bj is paying out 98% - is that through bad player strategy or because the casino is cheating (e.g., through a subtle weighting on certain cards, which could be done, despite having a certified RNG)? I'm sure it's just bad strategy, but a simple payout audit does nothing to prove or disprove it - you would need to conduct analysis of card distributions, including analysing different bet sizes, and many other things, and as Intercasino are not claiming that their auditors are doing that, it is very unlikely that they are.

The reality is that if a casino wants to cheat, no third-party company can stop them. Logs can be falsified, code can be switched.

The only true way to catch cheating is logging your own results with real money.
 
I think everyone understands that it would be incredibly easy for software companies to incorporate this type of rigging into their codes and be totally undetectable to anyone playing the games.


Speaking of rigging; I spotted something VERY worrying last night when I played MGs new Wealth Spa slot;
Previously most here accepted that MG bonus slots produce totally random spins - both in normal play, and in free-spin mode. But this one actually states that this is not the case.
So is it a slot, or is it an AWP? :confused:
I can't see anywhere where is says it is an AWP...


It's a slot. The chance of hitting the free spins is random. But because you need to get 5 wins to get the bonus, they take the average bet of all 5.

Which is no difference to me playing a normal game at 9 lines, 1 coin and getting 3 scatters to enter a bonus game which pays 500 coins. If I had played 5 coins, then I would have won 500*5 = 2500 coins.

The payout of bonus games are always multiplied by your coin size and number of coins played. Nothing unusual.

The payout of the game is still random - it's just a different method of calculating what to multiply it by.
 
The only true way to catch cheating is logging your own results with real money.

I am, and which is the basis of my thesis/theory. Studying this for some years now analyzing playcheck datalogs, is why I am quite consistent in my views. Most players in here know I have analyzed reels, randomness on how they land compared to the last wheel when a possible win could occure and such. (example, when the first 4 reels could give a good win if the 5th reel stops at the right place - is the last reel position weighted?) There are a million ways to give you bad luck, almost none detectable. However, being a gambling addict I have lost my head quite some times, many people wonder why I keep playing - so I wanted to add that.

Thanks for a great reply accually doing some study to finalize your thoughts.
 
As an experienced Software Engineer and online casino forum moderator I find myself wondering why you would post such a thing?

In particular I don't think this is appropriate material for the 'Online Casinos' forum whose stated purpose is:
Information, Experiences, questions and such. ....

Now you might say 'I was just asking a question' but I don't think it's as innocent and well-intentioned as that.

From what I know of you from your posting history here you are an intelligent person who has a bit of an axe to grind regarding online casinos. I can only assume that you are attempting to unsettle the readers here with what might best be described as a 'conspiracy theory'.

If I'm seeing this clearly and fairly I'd have to say that a 'conspiracy theory' intended to incite and unsettle the readership is more appropriate for 'The Attic' than anywhere else. Hence the move.
 
Discrediting my post by moving it into the jokes and crazy shit section only strengthens it.

Casinomeister is no longer a place for discussing rigged game topic from a programmers perspective - this was just proved.

Regards,
Kim Steinhaug
 
In particular I don't think this is appropriate material for the 'Online Casinos' forum whose stated purpose is:

That I would agree, however in past theese discussions have been popular. I myself is an experienced programmer, for almost 25 years. So yes, conspiracy or not I should have a firm basis of my views.

However, casinomeister is a forum for players which should embrase wins and loses and not the mechanics of a slot. I get it!

I wont be adding my thoughts more in your fora!
 
Discrediting my post by moving it into the jokes and crazy shit section only strengthens it.

Casinomeister is no longer a place for discussing rigged game topic from a programmers perspective - this was just proved.

Regards,
Kim Steinhaug

I think is always hard to prove negatives...

Prove casino do not cheat, online and land based.

I challenge your to prove any of the top software providers cheat.
.
Then, also define cheat. Might sound silly but i have heard many definitions of this this so I am curious.

PS, your code would not stand up to any serious testing I am afraid...
 
I wont be adding my thoughts more in your fora!

As in the past you are reacting with hostility and anger rather than a reasoned discussion.

If you think this belongs in the mainstream forums say so, justify it, explain why it's not just a conspiracy theory.

Simply saying "I'm pissed and I won't play in your sandbox anymore!" seems unnecessarily petulant.
 
@maxd

Let me rephrase, I won't be adding my grind on this fora! Obviously I agree that casinomeister has exhausted the talk about rigged system and is not the appropriate place of discussing this. I on the other hand have offered statistics, graphs, datamaterial - which is far more than other partisipants have done.

However, I would be much better off doing this with other developers and statistics experts another place - so I agree and respect your choice - however a little offended, it's only human.

So not being hostile, just ending myself taking part in talks about rigged software in this forum which I agree is not the correct place.

@casinojack

My point with the logic is a simplified overview. Anyway, I do not need to throw away my time explaining this for someone that is not willing to accually try to see my point of view. Either you get or you dont, or wont for that matter.

Some people obviously translate the example as a production example. It's like explaining a browser rendering engine in 20 lines of code, surely those 20 lines wont' work! However you get the general idea...0

My work in here covering this field is obviously done! People are obviously not looking into this at the depth I am doing, so you really have nothing to offer me! However I am tired of it myself, since proving or disproving anything wouldnt make a difference. People will gamble anyway, just a new software... Nothing changes - this is life! Hurray!

I was infact hoping for more intelligent replies on this topic. maby things have changed in here lately!
 
Let me add a few words to clarify where I'm coming from.

I could say "at Casino X every 999th blackjack player triggers 'take down' mode ... they clean him out".

Now on the surface of it this is entirely possible. The software could do it. The management could be complicit in it. Prove it doesn't happen!

However 'possible' it might be it is not a reasonable hypothesis, it's basically just something I pulled out of my arse to try and pin on Casino X.

To me there's not a lot of difference between my theory and yours, except that you've provided some code for show and tell.

So this is why I said it smells like 'conspiracy' to me and that's my reasoning for moving it. I could be completely wrong here, reading this totally the wrong way. I tried to explain why I was doing it, not trying to discredit you personally. Besides, 'The Attic' is the place for 'off topic' stuff not 'jokes and shit'.

And last but not least saying things like 'Casinomeister is no longer the place for discussing' and suchlike is not going to win you any friends or forward your topics here. Such things are meant to damage the forums because you are pissed off. They're not a legitimate contribution to what we and the membership do here.
 
So this is why I said it smells like 'conspiracy' to me and that's my reasoning for moving it. I could be completely wrong here, reading this totally the wrong way. Discuss.

Well everyone agrees that this is a conspiracy, since it's not proovable. If it were all hell would break lose...

On the other hand, what I find interesting here from a programming perspective would be this:

How hard would it be to create a system that one could enable a win switch or a losing switch, and still the outcome would be classified as random?

Am I the only one that finds this idea intreaging?
 
Let me add a few words to clarify where I'm coming from.

I could say "at Casino X every 999th blackjack player triggers 'take down' mode ... they clean him out".

Now on the surface of it this is entirely possible. The software could do it. The management could be complicit in it. Prove it doesn't happen!

However 'possible' it might be it is not a reasonable hypothesis, it's basically just something I pulled out of my arse to try and pin on Casino X.

To me there's not a lot of difference between my theory and yours, except that you've provided some code for show and tell.

So this is why I said it smells like 'conspiracy' to me and that's my reasoning for moving it. I could be completely wrong here, reading this totally the wrong way. Discuss.

So if I understand this correctly, there are no rig-threads allowed in the mainstream fora unless proven? Not even speculation?

There's definitely a line being drawn from my point of view.
 
PARS

Kimiss,

I don't know if you've seen a PARS ("paytable and reel strip") spread sheet. This is the mathematical model on which modern slots are built, in both land and i-casinos. These models are done in Excel, and the design and programming of the slot follows the specifications of the PARS.

If you haven't seen a PARS sheet, I suggest you contact one of the major slot manufacturers and see if you can get a legacy copy of one. This will give you a good foundation on which to proceed with your arguments.

If you've seen such a sheet, and still wish to pursue your arguments, then please produce complete code written in C++ that I can compile from the command line in Linux using the g++ compiler that you believe passes all the statistical tests conducted on such programs, but is not fair for some reason that only you know. I will run it through my suite of tests, and we'll see what we get. In particular, assume we have a slot with 48 reel stops per reel, 3 reels, and that the reels are equally weighted so that each stop occurs with equal probability, that is, each reel satisfies the most basic of statistical tests independent of the other reels, a chi-squared test on the distribution of each stop. Your program should produce a single line of data in CSV format: X,Y,Z per spin, with each of X,Y,Z between 0 and 47, representing the stop for that reel. I will run it and produce some number of millions of rounds to generate data to test, but I will not give you any more specifics in advance. However, the data is the only thing I will use to determine fairness, I will not inspect your code. I will provide my ftp site to you so you can upload your files. It can also be written in C or Java, but PHP won't do. No manufacturer that I know of programs their slots in PHP.

Best regards,

Eliot
 
Thanks, that is a good start, but it is a trivial example of a PARS sheet. That slot doesn't have free spins, bonus rounds, scatter symbols, or other things that players claim can be fixed. More typically, PARS sheets have several sheets in them with the calculations for the various features.

By the way, I am very good friends with the mathematician who did that sheet.

--Eliot
 
KimSS,

Alternatively, let me describe the test you could run on your playcheck data to check whether or not an algorithm like the one you describe has been used.

You suggest that a casino would influence when wins are awarded. That implies that the spacing of the wins after the 'tampering' is no longer uniform. The best way to determine if that is the case is by measuring the distribution of the spacing of the wins. One way to do this that results in a graph that you can 'visually' check is the following :

1. express all wins in multiples of the betsize.
2. create categories for each ocuring winsize (2xbet, 3xbet etc)
3. for each category calculate the average nr of spins between two wins in that category
4. for each category construct a distribution graph, with #occurences on the y-axis and on the x-axis the nr of spins.

All the graphs constructed in step 4 should be bell curves around the average from step 3, when provided with sufficient data. (you can make less detailed categories by grouping if you don't have enough data). If your theory is correct you will find win categories (the higher ones) that would show anomalies there.

Cheers,

Enzo
 
Thanks, that is a good start, but it is a trivial example of a PARS sheet. That slot doesn't have free spins, bonus rounds, scatter symbols, or other things that players claim can be fixed. More typically, PARS sheets have several sheets in them with the calculations for the various features.

By the way, I am very good friends with the mathematician who did that sheet.

--Eliot

Well is the only thing I had that I know had been made public before...

ill dig some more..
 
@Eliot Jacobson

This do sound like a fun task, it would be fun as a spare-time project to try and make such a piece of software (should I say proof of conecpt) just to see how hard it would be to beat the system of providing credible data.

I understand that the most easy task would be reverse engineer a known slot. A usual 9 liner would be easy, I do not need a par sheet since we know the reel bands, we also know that randomly positioning all the reels all the time gives 95% or so payout. I assume I would need the following:

1. The flawed RNG, which you feed with lines and betsize, returns reel positions.
2. The bank, polls the game engine and reflects the bank. Also stores stats for the player, and for you to check.
3. The autoplayer which you configure how to play (for easy access).

The three different pieces of software has nothing to do with each other, they are independent tools so to speak.

In the end the randomness of the reels is what gives the payout, I do not feel I need to understand the PAR to make this work? Maby I do, again - I will look into this if I deside to do this.

Also, I would need some help by some friends knowing c++, however my skills are in logic so the accuall c++ would not be my expertice anyway. What I need to look into is how big the task is, if I get anyone to share my interest in this - also what I in the end get out of it, which is nothing exept persuing my nemesis in life - gambling.

To be honest, persuing this any more really defies the purpose since I am thinking of stopping casino games all together. However - it would still be of great interest, however being able to fool someone like you still doesnt proove anything at all, other that it's possible which is something we already know it is.

@ Enzo

You probably seen my other post lately, I have alot of what you are saying already graphed into my multichart. It is very easy to add more calculations into it, or more charts for that matter. However this is timeconsuming.

I also did some runs 2 years ago, analyzing the randomness of reel positions looking at how the reels connected to eachother, say that the first 4 reels lined up and check how the last reel was random (looking to see if the symbols accually giving a good pay were harder to get...). However I only had a some 250.000 spins of data so nobody would accually look into it, to few spins of data.

It's a hard game, since I would need a few million spins to have any accual data. And to be honest I am not willing to deposit enough to get a credible amount of data for deeper testing.

I will however have some words with some friends of mine, if this could be a fun sideproject to do. There are several ways of accomplishing such a testsystem. But I doubt I really have any interest in prooving anything at all, and we should all know by now that completing this project would cosume a few 100 hours of private betatesting before it would be ready for a live-test by any of you.

I will have to think about this, if I even have the time or if this is anything I would like to do at all (as we are talking for real now, and not just theory! I get tired of even thinking of the hours that this project would consume, for nothing other than proving a point!).
 
So if I understand this correctly, there are no rig-threads allowed in the mainstream fora unless proven? Not even speculation?

Forget it. No one seems to give a toss about the point I'm trying to make here and I don't care enough about this to fight over it. If this is what you guys want to spend your time on fill your boots.

Thread moved back to 'Online Casinos'.
 
Kimiss,

I don't know if you've seen a PARS ("paytable and reel strip") spread sheet. This is the mathematical model on which modern slots are built, in both land and i-casinos. These models are done in Excel, and the design and programming of the slot follows the specifications of the PARS.

If you haven't seen a PARS sheet, I suggest you contact one of the major slot manufacturers and see if you can get a legacy copy of one. This will give you a good foundation on which to proceed with your arguments.

If you've seen such a sheet, and still wish to pursue your arguments, then please produce complete code written in C++ that I can compile from the command line in Linux using the g++ compiler that you believe passes all the statistical tests conducted on such programs, but is not fair for some reason that only you know. I will run it through my suite of tests, and we'll see what we get. In particular, assume we have a slot with 48 reel stops per reel, 3 reels, and that the reels are equally weighted so that each stop occurs with equal probability, that is, each reel satisfies the most basic of statistical tests independent of the other reels, a chi-squared test on the distribution of each stop. Your program should produce a single line of data in CSV format: X,Y,Z per spin, with each of X,Y,Z between 0 and 47, representing the stop for that reel. I will run it and produce some number of millions of rounds to generate data to test, but I will not give you any more specifics in advance. However, the data is the only thing I will use to determine fairness, I will not inspect your code. I will provide my ftp site to you so you can upload your files. It can also be written in C or Java, but PHP won't do. No manufacturer that I know of programs their slots in PHP.

Best regards,

Eliot

A few things to say here:
* the OP's theory is nonsense. Casinos have no reason to do this. If they want to make more money, they change the paytable/reels/whatever. Slots are great from this perspective. Why would they want to cheat?
* online gaming is basically unregulated, and the type of testing you describe is not testing that I have seen casinos claim they do, so the idea that the OP's theory would not work because it would be caught by appropriate third-party testing rather pre-supposes that such third-party testing takes place.

But anyway, please, ENOUGH OF THE CONSPIRACY THEORIES ALREADY. Slot machines are a licence to print money as it is. No need to cheat.
 
IMHO, i think this thread is extremely interesting! Especially with the input of the very knowledgeable people already represented in this thread. It will always be very difficult to discuss matters that are usually considered "secretive" in nature... and let's be honest, a lot of people don't really want to know too much detail because it may be so contrary to what they have been led to believe.

Even IF something is true, people don't want to be made to feel stupid or deceived. People don't want to know that bonuses are predetermined. People don't want to know that a slot is not completely random. People don't want to know that they never really had a chance, people don't want to know that some program was determining things outside of the random number generator and PAR sheets...etc. (just examples, by the way)

It's the idea that ignorance is bliss.

I personally don't think online casinos "cheat," but it may be dependent on what your definifion of "cheat" is. "Decepetive" may be a better word.

IF casinos use software that tend to work "differently" than what we think, but still gives you a 95% return in the long run... is it "cheating?" Some people would say yes, others would say no.

For video slots, i was ALWAYS under the impression that a slot was designed by way of reel strips and a random number generator that chose 5 numbers, one for each reel. BUT we know that isn't true in the case of dynamic weighting. For the life of me... I can't think of ONE good reason why that would be! This alone makes me question certain things.

It may not just be a matter of obvious "cheating" by software, but more of deceptive practices that could be seen as "cheating" from a players perspective.

In my other thread, i brought up the "scratch-ticket" type slots used in certain jurisdictions. This method could EASILY be used in online slot software, but would it be "cheating?" Probably not from the casinos point of view, but maybe from the player's.

Another example, if we know that a pick-em bonus is pre-determined and whatever you chose didn't matter...is that cheating? How do you know it isn't similar when you press the "spin" button? (versus picking barrels, shooting ducks, etc....)

And let's be honest, Kimss theory, true or not, conpspiracy or not.... Is it really that hard to believe that it is POSSIBLE? Or is it as ridiculous as, let's say.... A casino software that skews the double up on a video poker game to ONLY the house's favor? Hmmmmm..... Oh... i forgot, that was a software or upgrade "error."

PS..... Anyone seen or have an example of a PAR sheet for a online slot? If they work like vegas slots than surely there has to be examples of them....just wondering.
 
@Eliot Jacobson

This do sound like a fun task, it would be fun as a spare-time project to try and make such a piece of software (should I say proof of conecpt) just to see how hard it would be to beat the system of providing credible data.
...

I have no idea how to build a program of the type you described in your pseudo-code. I think that before you can talk about what is possible, you need to prove you can do what is being done. Take a PARS sheet and write the code. Then take the next step, write a program that passes the statistical tests, looks and feels like the PARS, but cheats. I'd really like to see it. I know you have often written here that you beleive that this is what's going on in some casinos. You have also repeatedly stated your credentials. Now I am offering you the chance. So do it! Write the code and test me.

however being able to fool someone like you still doesnt proove anything at all, other that it's possible which is something we already know it is.

I believe quite strongly that it's not possible to fool me, that's why I want to see you try! I could use the education. I need to know that my tests aren't working on all data sets so I can upgrade them and help my clients produce even more fair products. Your program could enlighten me, so please, write it! And if I am enlightened, you may help the entire industry: I desparately want you to fool me, that's how strongly I believe in fairness.

As far as this specification:
>The autoplayer which you configure how to play (for easy access).

I don't want an autoplayer. Much better would be a command line argument that simply produces that many lines of CSV output corresponding to game play. I would prefer it to compile in Ubuntu, but I have access to other Linux environments if needed. If you are only able to do this in PHP because you don't know other languages, I will accept a PHP product, as long as it works from the command line in Linux.

Your challenge is to use the credentials you have repeatedly touted to create a program that meets the specifications of a PARS sheet in terms of player interaction and does what you say it is possible to do. You started this thread by saying "this is how you make it" and then provided pseudo-code. So you claim to know how to do it. So do it.

Short of producing the code, I'm not sure there's much more to discuss.

Best regards,

Eliot
 
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Eliot,
I got this info off your website, and I'm not sure if I understand this correctly. You state additional wages are not considered such has a double down in BLACKJACK, or like in LET IT RIDE, where you make the initial bet with the option to add two more of the same bets during the same hand, only the initial bet is counted.

My question is, what would stop the online casino from rigging the additional add on bets outcome? If I lost $75.00 in a double split during a $25.00 starting hand of BJ, your saying you only record a $25.00 loss. If I start a hand of Let it Ride with $100.00 dollars, and flop 3 to the flush and raise, then next card is 4 to the flush, raise again and lose a total of $300.00 dollars, again you only record $100.00 dollars being lost. I understand players can do all kinds of crazy additional senseless bets, but an experienced gambler knows exactly how to play to gain their best possible odds.

So when you do these tests you never double on eleven or split 8's in BJ against a dealers 6, or never raise during a hand of Let It Ride? Is your test being done with only the initial bet never pressing another bet? If this is how it's done then maybe I should never make the additional bets online to achieve your confirmed payout percentages.

There have been many claims here that the double bet option during video poker along with the computer auto hold cards during video poker are rigged. Are these options of play offered by the casino ever considered for testing?



Quote From Website:
Amount Wagered by Player This is the amount of the initial wager by the player. Many games allow or require additional wagers to be placed after the initial wager. For example, Three Card Poker requires a Play wager for the hand to compete. Blackjack allows additional wagers for doubling or splitting. For purposes of computing the RTP, these additional wagers are not considered.

Total Amount Wagered by Players For the period over which the audit takes place for a specific game, each initial wager for each round by each player is tallied to give the total amount wagered by all players.

Amount Returned to Player Conceptually, this is the net amount the player wins (positive number) or loses (negative number) in a round.

For most table games, if the player wins the round then his original wager is returned. The amount wagered is not counted in the return, just the net amount won. If the player loses, then the amount returned is a negative number -- he loses the total amount wagered for the round, again this is the player's net result for the round. One way of thinking about the return for table games is that it equals (total amount returned) - (total amount wagered).
 
Theory or not, I don't have a clue, it's way over my head, but the thread is interesting, so hang with it. :thumbsup: It's a good read.

I agree. I have been on this forum a very short time. But I see most of the conversations here slantedntword this topic of Casino Cheating or conspiracy. Getting to the end of it would place the whole industry on a solid moral foundation. Proving that it could be done is a step in the right direction. But to nail the coffin you would need a monitoring system that would give the players a simple proof when they have doubts. Graphs and data on sections of play such as one player or bets over a certain amount would be needed. Then this info would need to be posted by a third party over partisipating casinos in a simple way.

In my opinion a proven honest casino would be popular. Once it was set up perhaps more casinos would partisipate.Eliot Jacobson's knowledge of systems is impressive and o is kimss, But it is something most of us can not follow. The monitored graphs would need to be easy to undertsand to non program oriented persons.

Keep it going guys.
 
I believe quite strongly that it's not possible to fool me, that's why I want to see you try! I could use the education. I need to know that my tests aren't working on all data sets so I can upgrade them and help my clients produce even more fair products. Your program could enlighten me, so please, write it! And if I am enlightened, you may help the entire industry: I desparately want you to fool me, that's how strongly I believe in fairness.
Eliot

I believe you. But honesty needs to be displayed to the public in a simple format. This is the key to a well founded reputation. I feel I wear the same white hat as you. It looks good on people and is worth more (in monetary terms) than bad behavior at the end of the day. But it takes a certain type of intelagence to understand this concept. A one time proof in a forum is the first step forward. But results of on going play need to be publicly posted and undertsood.
This is my train of thought for the last few days.
 
To make my words a little easier to understand, let me write a logical example. This could be programming in any language, however I hope you have a basic understanding on how programming works - and this example would only be the low-end logic oversight.

Proove my logic wrong - how would you detect that this system was rigged?

Basic assumption of a slot:

PHP:
function slot(){
  get_numbers();
  compute_spin();
  update_balance();
  update_graphics_with_numbers();
}

function get_numbers(){
  // Return random numbers
}
function compute_spin(){
  // Calculate if the spin is a win or not
}
function update_balance(){
  // new bank balance
}
function update_graphics_with_numbers(){
  // Updates the GUI, what we persieve as the game infront of us.
}
Also - note that the get_numbers(); function is most likely proprietary, and inside a company like MG this function
is most likely only known by a few. We will never know the story here, we will only know the outcome...

However we already know that all your history is stored by the playcheck data. If you ever asked CS for a dumpt of your data
you will see thay have a nice overview on lots of % payouts, deposits, manager bonus +++ at their disposal. So infact - the
system already have all the calculated stuff freely available at their need, so It is fairly easy to tweak the system
and still it is impossible to detect the rigged system.

Let's assume we tweak the get_numbers() to something like this:

PHP:
function get_numbers(){
  //This function is really extended by the really_get_numers()
  // Remember this function is proprietary, so nobody knows what is happening
  // here. It might aswell be something as this.
  // New logic in place is:
  var userstate = compute_play_mode(); // Three states: default, loser and winner
  if(userstate == winner)
    var maxwin = compute_winner_max_win();

  if(userstate==default)
    return really_get_numers();
    
  var rnd = really_get_numers();
  var win = calculate_winX_compared_to_bet_size();

  if(userstate==winner AND win >= maxwin){
    return really_get_numers();    
  } else if(userstate==loser  AND !win){
    return really_get_numers(); 
  } else {
    return rnd;
  }
}
function compute_play_mode(){
  // Poll earlier playing data and descide if we have a winner or a loser
  // at the moment. This would be a complicated part of the system with
  // alot of weighted triggers depending on this and that. However the
  // general idea is here.
}
function compute_winner_max_win(){
  // Calculate, depending on previous function what wins we will ignore if
  // they would occure.
}

function really_get_numers(){
  // Return random numbers
}
This would be perfect for audit, peferct for all since all numbers are 100% random in the players end.
However you clearly see that the system is rigged, and the casino assures steady players getting more luck when
losing and harder time when winning! In the end a quicker way to meet expected 95%.


Surly if compute_play_mode() results were based on passed performances
the auditors would stamp on this.

If your having a bad streak your previous history should not be crossed checked by the software. Although this may be good for the player as the system may give him better odds of winning.

Think about the opposite, if the player is doing well, would the logic dull down the odds of winning further. Win or lose it should be calculated in a random fashion.

Although I'm not saying your wrong in the slighest it's jusy my view.

Who knows how the logic is written, I for one would love to know :lolup:

Mannie
 
I believe quite strongly that it's not possible to fool me, that's why I want to see you try! I could use the education. I need to know that my tests aren't working on all data sets so I can upgrade them and help my clients produce even more fair products. Your program could enlighten me, so please, write it! And if I am enlightened, you may help the entire industry: I desparately want you to fool me, that's how strongly I believe in fairness.

In point of fact, one of your clients did in the past release a cheating game to its users. (Testing was at the time done by Michael Shackleford)

While I have confidence in the validity of your statistical tests, and generally speaking in online gaming, I do not believe that most casinos are subject to external tests as stringent as those you are describing.

Moreover, as online gaming is essentially unregulated there is nothing stopping an online casino doing what English Harbour did, and releasing an untested or indeed rigged game. In comparison with the status of a financial auditor auditing a company in any developed country, services like yours exist not so much to audit, but to test whatever data the casino chooses to release to you.

Again that's not to say that I believe that online casinos are cheating, but rather that the 'safe gaming' assurances that they are not are far from watertight.

You challenge the OP to provide data to prove his (rather ridiculous) scheme can defeat your tests, but why would he? As a casino operator it would be much simpler to switch the data he sent you. Why go the hard route?

I'm not criticising your service - I think if in the future the US came up with a credible system of regulation then your service would be much more useful - as legally enforced gaming testing, rather than the present scheme where casinos can individually decide what, if any, testing to do.

On the regulation issue - consider Wagerworks, owned by IGT, and regulated in Alderney, one of the more stringent jurisdictions: it has three rigged slot machines - see https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/wagerworks-megajackpots-are-fraudulent-rigged.30090/. I haven't received a reply from Wagerworks about how and why they are doing this, but suffice to say that IMO in online gaming you just have to take things on trust.

Similarly, Boss ran a game for months that played differently from advertised: no audit caught that.

PS. I wrote this post watching the Millionaire ad at the top:

mc-468x60-casinomeister.gif


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I think....
 
My question is, what would stop the online casino from rigging the additional add on bets outcome?

The answer is that although the additional wagers for doubles and splits are not counted in the RTP, the data from those doubles and splits does appear in the log files and is audited for fairness alongside everything else.

The RTP is simple accounting; the way it is computed is:

RTP = (Total amount won) / (Total initial amount wagered).

A full audit looks at the actual results of all play; every outcome of every aspect of the game. RTP is one measure of fairness, obviously the RTP should be approximately (100% - House Edge) with perfect play by the player. For games with no strategy (like Keno and slots) this gives a fairly accurate picture, though the outcomes of the RNG are still audited in full. For blackjack and other strategy games, the audit procedure covers the strategic decisions.

There have been many claims here that the double bet option during video poker along with the computer auto hold cards during video poker are rigged. Are these options of play offered by the casino ever considered for testing?

I test for the double bet option fully every month at each casino I audit. This is very easy. For the computer auto-hold cards, that's a recommendation. Recommendations are not recorded in the logs. Only the final player actions are recorded. If the auto-suggestions are rigged, that would show in the audit of the complete log files for VP as a skewed distribution of player final hands and that would easily be picked up by the audit.

Forgive me if I don't respond to any more questions in this thread.

Best regards,

--Eliot
 
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Kimss - your original post reminds me of what the "Start your own casino" bunch were doing. Or maybe still ARE doing.

The software is very good, with great control over the profit/winnings. It has the ability to change the winning % per game/table in real-time. Also you can withdraw the profit and limit player's winnings. Games are completely random, if the winning is within the limit. If the bet is causing winning over the set limit, the generator is generating another number until the winning is within the limit (or player loses).
 
Why only Betvoyager has randomness control?

As regards the issue of whether the RNG-based software of online casinos cheats or not (note that I am not questioning the casinos but the software!), I have only one question: Why is randomness control only provided by Betvoyager and by no other casino software provider, as far as I know? WHY???!!! :p
 
As regards the issue of whether the RNG-based software of online casinos cheats or not (note that I am not questioning the casinos but the software!), I have only one question: Why is randomness control only provided by Betvoyager and by no other casino software provider, as far as I know? WHY???!!! :p

Thank you for this post. That was an incredible read on the betvoyager website. What a great way to introduce more "randomness" to an online game. You can actually "change" the linear aspect of the random number generator! In other words... the random number generator picks a linear group of numbers and you can interupt that "set" and totally change the future outcomes! Very interesting!
 
Thank you for this post. That was an incredible read on the betvoyager website. What a great way to introduce more "randomness" to an online game. You can actually "change" the linear aspect of the random number generator! In other words... the random number generator picks a linear group of numbers and you can interupt that "set" and totally change the future outcomes! Very interesting!

Now i know this is a fantastically interesting point, so maybe someone can explain it better than i have? I mean.... this is really interesting! I don't think i was able to explain it very well.....the implications....wow!
 

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