$4700 in Fraudulent Charges, then $12000 in Withdrawals Taken When Trying to Fix it

[Keno]

You have to understand, any time the word "chargeback" is used, casinos become totally paranoid

I don't know of any other terms to use when describing how to handle fraudulent charges. I've used all the synonyms I know: "chargeback", "reversal", and "getting the bank involved." Casinos should not get hung up on one word, and should not completely dismiss a player, their withdrawals, and all of their action because of it.

Of course I understand the initial paranoia. But doesn't legitimate fraud happen to players enough that a casino group as big as CW has experience with false positives? I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't. Casinos MUST allow people to fight legitimate fraud without hassles such as the one I've experienced. CW can clearly see the difference, and that it's obviously the case here. Geez...I even have Rushmore's emails owning up to the charges! Why nobody from CW will accept any evidence from me is mind boggling. The situation was handled poorly by CW the whole way through.

That's sounds pretty odd to me. I've never heard of any site allowing this. And I'm sure that's covered in most affiliate terms and conditions. Tom said you were playing on your account - not your wife's.

I don't know of any poker affiliate T&Cs that outright allow it, no. But a large amount of them look the other way. I was a poker affiliate for 10 years, and still am at 1 or 2 places, and I am (or was) very knowledgeable about the online poker scene. I've even had conversations with affiliate managers from 2 different rooms, openly discussing my wife as a player on my affiliate account. Here, it was the opposite -- my wife has the affiliate account and I play the games.

We have been trying to sign up players (like we did over the years with poker), but no one will bite. As silly as it sounds, most of the poker players we know don't gamble. My wife is the same way. She doesn't get much enjoyment from -EV games. Tom is correct. The accounts on CW are all primarily my player accounts. Despite being a mid-to-high limit poker pro, my wife plays casino games very rarely, and plays much smaller than I do. Take a look at the paragraph in response to Tom about how the casino cashiers automatically change the name of the account holder. I gave a pretty long-winded explanation of it above.

We have a forum policy that if you chargeback, your membership is terminated. I would suggest not to do this.

Agreed. I've done everything in my power to avoid charging anything back, and look at what's happened to both my accounts and my reputation as a player. I know you haven't seen Rushmore's emails to me, but despite my numerous requests for them to issue the reversals from their end, Kate (from their "Deposits Department") keeps alluding that they won't do it, and that I have to charge the transactions back on my side. To quote from her 2nd email response on the issue:

"Dear XXXXX

It seems as these transactions were through a processor we used to use and I have heard that unfortunately some players were charged in error and therefore have charged back those specific amounts. As you seem to know chargeback are not good for casinos or processors but obviously if it was the processors fault players are in the right to get back their funds."

I can PM you the emails if you want.

 

[Keno]

they also seem to offer secret special deals to their big pro players

Full Tilt Poker did this relentlessly. Stuff like 100% rakeback and what not. But their pros were also fundamental in attracting new and bad casual players (fish).

 

[Redbush54]

Just to verify the t & c's of the affiliate program...

3.3 Commercial Use Only. This Marketing opportunity is for commercial use only, and you may not make purchases, directly or indirectly, through your Tracker for your own personal use or to fraudulently increase the Marketing Fees payables to you. If you wish to make test transactions to evaluate the system, including Purchases, please contact [email protected] so we can refund the charges once you have completed your testing. Transactions made in violation of this provision will be deemed Fraud Traffic and we will deduct such Purchases or traffic from your Marketing Fees.

IMO you should loose every bit of commission you ever made and it should come out of your w/d and they should close your aff acct. Its a good ideal to always read the t & c's of every affiliate program you join. It's YOUR responsibility to know what's legal and what's not.

 

[Keno]

Oh, what the heck. Since it seems we're handling this in the thread, and since I have some free time right now...

---------- RUSHMORE'S RESPONSE TO MY INITIAL EMAIL (Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 7:34 AM)(16 days after I sent the original email to everyone) ----------​

Dear Keno

I am sorry that i havent gotten back to you sooner the email was not delivered to my box until now, and that this has happened. Please let me know if you did charge back these amounts?

Kind regards

Kate Roberts
Deposits Department

---------- ME (Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:04 AM) ----------​

Hi Kate,

Thanks for the reply. No worries on the timing. As they say, better late than never.

I'm just as anxious as you are to get to the bottom of this. It strikes me odd however, that you would ask if the transactions were charged back without first saying whether any of them are yours. Chargebacks on those transactions would only affect you if the charges belong to one or more Rushmore casinos. Did you want to claim any of those charges as either failed deposit attempts during last month's processor issues, or successful deposits that were never marked as such and therefore never added to my account balance? Or, do you recognize those transactions or descriptors for any other reason, or from any other casino?

Once you claim the transactions that are Rushmore's responsibility, or once you clear your processors or affiliates of any of these fraudulent charges, then I will be happy to fill you in on the details of my progress.

In the meantime, let me know if there is anything else you require from me.

Thank You,
Keno

---------- RUSHMORE (Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:26 AM) ----------​

Dear Keno

It seems as these transactions were through a processor we used to use and I have heard that unfortunately some players were charged in error and therefore have charged back those specific amounts. As you seem to know chargeback are not good for casinos or processors but obviously if it was the processors fault players are in the right to get back their funds.

I hope to hear from you soon with an update.


Kind regards

Kate Roberts
Deposits Department

---------- ME (Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:33 AM) ----------​

Thanks, Kate. It helps a great deal to know the source of the transactions. Can you be a bit more specific? Do all those transactions come from your group, or only some?

I'm with you in trying to avoid chargebacks. That is why I had sent this email out to several casino groups a couple of weeks ago -- to give the casinos the opportunity to issue refunds on those charges before getting the banks involved. The same applies for Rushmore of course. I don't mind giving you a chance to make good on the charges.

How would you prefer to proceed? The transactions have not been charged back yet. Do you want to initiate the reversal from your end? If so, I could give you a day or two to do so before taking action on my end.

Let me know.

Thanks,
Keno

---------- RUSHMORE (Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 9:54 AM) ----------​

Dear Keno

I have attached a list of the transactions that did were credited and played in our casino, the rest I think came from the processor we used previously, as long as you don't charge back on the transactions that are included in this mail that is fine.

Once again I am sorry about this.


Kind regards

Kate Roberts
Deposits Department

---------- ME (Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 9:59 AM) ----------​

Hi Kate,

Did you leave off the attachment? I don't see it.

Thanks,
Keno

---------- ME (Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 10:01 AM) ----------​

I should have that list as part of my full spreadsheet. You're talking about the cashier (deposit) history for Rushmore, Cherry Red, Slots Oasis, and Slotsville, right? I never used Pure Vegas before.

Thanks,
Keno

---------- RUSHMORE (Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 10:03 AM) ----------​

Dear Keno

Sorry i forgot to attach the actual list.


Kind regards

Kate Roberts
Deposits Department

---------- ME (Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 10:07 AM) ----------​

Kate,

Just to be clear, you want me to charge back the unauthorized transactions* myself? You do not want to issue the reversal from your side?

Thanks,
Keno

*unauthorized transaction = any transactions on my cards that do not belong to any other casinos, and are not on the list you attached

---------- RUSHMORE (no response since) ----------​

 

[Keno]

IMO you should loose every bit of commission you ever made and it should come out of your w/d and they should close your aff acct. Its a good ideal to always read the t & c's of every affiliate program you join. It's YOUR responsibility to know what's legal and what's not.

Dude, chill out a bit...

First off, the affiliate account and player accounts have been active for months. Not one penny of affiliate commissions were ever paid. So apparently, this was an issue with the affiliate company months ago and they just hadn't ever said anything. I don't like the fact that they "saved it" to use later as an excuse to complicate things when it's time to withdraw.

Also, I'm trying to figure out why this is even part of the discussion. The whole time I was in contact with CW, the ONLY reason I was ever given for the account closure was that I said I was going to charge back all of my deposits (which I NEVER said). These other issues about husband/wife and the affiliate program were never even spoke about as a problem in the past, even though commission on the affiliate account wasn't paid for any of the past few months, and even though the staff instructed us to set the player accounts up this way. Tom's post in this thread is the first I'm hearing about either of those things.

 

[The Dude]

Dude, chill out a bit...

You mean "Dudette"

 

[vinylweatherman]

Although they don't say so outright, it seems Rushmore are effectively telling all those players who had these charges deducted in error to issue a chargeback via their bank. It looks like Rushmore are happy that this action can't hurt them now that they have ditched this processor, but their attitude seems to be "sod the rest of the industry" who's collective interest would be best served by the casino dealing with this from their end, leaving the US banks none the wiser.

If Rushmore are routinely dismissing responsibilty and telling players to go to their banks, this could have a serious impact on the whole industry. It won't take much for those players not paid by Rushmore to also believe they have been given the green light to hit the errant processor (as Rushmore always blames it's processors for players not getting paid on time) by charging back even those deposits that made it through and were played on the grounds that they would at least partly compensate for the withdrawal Rushmore claims has been misappropriated by a "processor we no longer use".


Perhaps Rushmore should be triple rogued for telling it's players to issue chargebacks against the processor, rather than the casino taking care of the matter.

The real problem is how the banks will handle it. Will they accept the players tale that they only want to charge back for the 25 duff cycles they bought from that shop in Dubai, but that the other 150 worked fine and should not be chanrged back for

I am sure the bank will go into "nanny state mode" and charge back all 175 cycle purchases, 25 from Rushmore, and 150 from a wide variety of other casinos.

I am still surprised that Barclays haven't questioned my sudden purchase of almost 10 grands worth of computer software when playing at Casino La Vida earlier in the year I am thinking what the hell are they thinking doing this miscoding trick for UK player purchases, don't they want to stay under the radar so that the trick works for as long as possible for US players.

 

[Keno]

SLIGHT CORRECTION: The amount of pending withdrawals should be $10,500 and not $12,000. (Mods/Admins, feel free to update the thread title) My wife just told me that my estimate is off, and that she remembers the individual amounts from when she last saw the cashier's withdrawal tabs. All together, it was $7000 from one casino and $3500 from another. Disclaimer: We're both working off of memory for this amount. I don't have an exact total because the CW cashiers are unavailable to me right now.

 

[Keno]

You mean "Dudette"

Noted.

 

[vinylweatherman]

SLIGHT CORRECTION: The amount of pending withdrawals should be $10,500 and not $12,000. (Mods/Admins, feel free to update the thread title) My wife just told me that my estimate is off, and that she remembers the individual amounts from when she last saw the cashier's withdrawal tabs. All together, it was $7000 from one casino and $3500 from another. Disclaimer: We're both working off of memory for this amount. I don't have an exact total because the CW cashiers are unavailable to me right now.

Perhaps better record keeping would have allowed you to spot what the Rushmore processor was up to before they had walked off with $4700. If you only have a rough estimate from memory of what you are due from pending withdrawals, how can you be sure you have not been screwed over.

Every time I make a withdrawal, I write it down on a table on a sheet of paper. When it gets credited to my account, I cross it off. This table has occasionally prompted me to chase up an unusually slow withdrawal, or one where the wrong amount has been paid because of an entry from a while ago remaining whilst all later ones have been crossed off because they have been paid.

 

[Keno]

Perhaps better record keeping would have allowed you to spot what the Rushmore processor was up to before they had walked off with $4700.

Perhaps. Still, you should see the records I have. They're not 100% perfect, but they're pretty good nonetheless. I can PM you whatever you want to look over (except for casino cashier histories or the pending withdrawals on CW). But I will say one thing about that, since it's not as cut and dry as you make it sound: Many of the processors's descriptors and such make it difficult to trace the source...especially for a player who deposits a LOT, and in many of the same amounts. 50, 50, 50, 100, 100, 25, 25, 50, 50, etc. is what my CC statements and cashier histories look like. Add that in with the fact that I have played on almost every casino from each group, and it gets kind of messy no matter how good you are at keeping records. IMO, it's left that way on purpose. The casinos aren't in any rush to fix it. And why would they be? Anything that trips up the player (vague or hidden bonus clauses, conflicting information from incompetent phone or chat agents, declined withdrawals that get put back in the account with no explanation, etc.) benefits the casino, and never the player.

If you only have a rough estimate from memory of what you are due from pending withdrawals, how can you be sure you have not been screwed over.

Cashier histories, when checked against bank and CC statements. But the cashier histories were taken away because the accounts got locked. I already got paid several $2500 withdrawal checks from these latest Keno wins )) on 2 different CW casinos. The remaining $10,000 or $12,000 shows in the pending withdrawal section of those cashiers.

Incidentally, I hope you're not saying I'm in the wrong, or I should lose the money I'm entitled to receive, simply because I caught this fraud a week or two later than I should have. You seem like a really good poster, so I doubt that was your implication. Also, I didn't notify the casino groups until after I compiled that deposit spreadsheet from my CC statements, had all the correct facts in front of me, and was able to attach a list of the 25 fraudulent transactions -- amounts, dates, descriptors, etc. Putting the spreadsheet together took an additional week or so.

 

[Keno]

Immediately afterwards you send another email saying that actually it not our casino that you are going to chargeback your deposits, it is a different one.

I didn't catch this on the first reading, but I never said I would be charging back anything other than the fraudulent transactions. Once again, I find CW being disingenuous in order to make me look like the villain and to try to rationalize confiscating my withdrawals. Tom, can you point to the email where I said I was going to charge back deposits at any casino?

It is not unreasonable for my Risk Team to suspect that you are waiting for your withdrawals to clear before doing the chargebacks with us too.

Yes it is. See above.

As other people have said, it is absurd to put players in a position where they cannot try to recover stolen money without fearing the loss of their legitimate winnings.

 

[anniemac]

Keno,

Did you post a copy of the original email you sent to all the casinos regarding thing? I called myself reading this thread but if you posted it, I missed it. That might clarify for all readers what exactly was said.

There has got to be a way for casinos and players to work together regarding unauthorized charges. Casinos cannot expect a player to eat these charges. If that be the case, then no one is safe to deposit via credit/debit card because we have no recourse in recovering fraudelent charges. Casinos need to work with players with these problems and they need to make it top priority.

Because of the problems I am having, I have implemented a plan on how I will deposit and where. Never, ever will I give out my 'real' banking information to anyone online. I will use prepaid cards only and change them with regularity. I will never have more than a night's worth of depositing on it either. At least that way, they can't steal what's not there.

I would rather that casinos refuse US players than leave us without recourse for theft.

 

[Keno]

Did you post a copy of the original email you sent to all the casinos regarding thing?

No, not yet. I only posted the emails with Rushmore so far. I'll post the ClubWorld emails later this morning, when I have more time.

 

[KasinoKing]

No, not yet. I only posted the emails with Rushmore so far. I'll post the ClubWorld emails later this morning, when I have more time.

Haven't you submitted a PAB about your issue?
If you have, or are intending to (and I strongly think you should), then you MUST STOP posting any more information about your issue!

Otherwise Maxd would be justified in tossing your PAB out for breach of the terms.

KK

 

[Keno]

Haven't you submitted a PAB about your issue?
If you have, or are intending to (and I strongly think you should), then you MUST STOP posting any more information about your issue!

Otherwise Maxd would be justified in tossing your PAB out for breach of the terms.

KK

Yes, I read the PAB T&C 2 or 3 days ago, and I remember the part about posting in threads (before, during, after, or whatever it said). The PAB form was filled out almost 48 hours ago, and only had to be proofread when ClubWorld's Tom posted, and started discussing the case in this thread. If I lose the PAB because of that, I should at least be able to claim entrapment.

 

[Mousey]

Yes, I read the PAB T&C 2 or 3 days ago, and I remember the part about posting in threads (before, during, after, or whatever it said). The PAB form was filled out almost 48 hours ago, and only had to be proofread when ClubWorld's Tom posted, and started discussing the case in this thread. If I lose the PAB because of that, I should at least be able to claim entrapment.

Keno... if Tom is not working with you on this situation via PM or emails, listen to KK... and listen to myself and others... if you are on the up and up, leave us a note here that you're doing the PAB, and please stop posting and PAB now! Have copies of emails ready, and your spreadsheet, etc.

 

[clubworld]

Hi Keno,

I do understand your frustrations and that this situation is far from ideal.

I must re-iterate that this matter is still on-going and therefore it would be better to take it off the boards and into Private Message.

If you are unsatisfied with the outcome at least you can then PAB and gain Max’s official input or update this thread as you see fit.

Kind regards
Tom

 

[Keno]

Hi Keno,

I do understand your frustrations and that this situation is far from ideal.

I must re-iterate that this matter is still on-going and therefore it would be better to take it off the boards and into Private Message.

If you are unsatisfied with the outcome at least you can then PAB and gain Max’s official input or update this thread as you see fit.

Kind regards
Tom

PM sent.

 

[griffon51]

my thanks

I would like to thank all subsribers in this thread...Its like a tv drama,cant wait for the next instalment.

good lck too all ....you are going to need it....Grif

 

[SlotMonster]

Any news on this case?

 

[Keno]

Latest Update:

Hi everyone. My accounts with the Club World group have been unlocked and I have been able to withdraw. So far, I have received 3 smaller cashouts to MyPaylinQ and OKPay and there's a check for $2500 on the way.

I never got an email, or any other communication from them about the accounts being unlocked. I just happened to see some CW promo emails during the hurricane, when there was no power in the area. After power came back to my desktop (and also several days after sending Tom my last private message), I tried logging in and the accounts were all open!

Thank you all for your posts and advice. Without the forum's help, the result could have been very different. There's still the issue of Rushmore's $4700 in fraud charges, which I'll post about separately in a few minutes.

 

[Keno]

The $4700 that Rushmore erroneously charged has still not been resolved. I haven't received any other communication from them about whether they are refunding the transactions or if I should charge them back myself. ALL emails with Rushmore about this issue were posted earlier in the thread.

We are closing in on 120 days from the first fraudulent charge, which I understand is the time limit for some credit cards on initiating a chargeback. Since they have been non-responsive, and they are a (triple?) rogued casino, I'm probably not able to do a PAB with them. I think I should just go ahead and get the banks to issue the reversals from their side.

Thoughts?

 

[bb28]

The $4700 that Rushmore erroneously charged has still not been resolved. I haven't received any other communication from them about whether they are refunding the transactions or if I should charge them back myself. ALL emails with Rushmore about this issue were posted earlier in the thread.

We are closing in on 120 days from the first fraudulent charge, which I understand is the time limit for some credit cards on initiating a chargeback. Since they have been non-responsive, and they are a (triple?) rogued casino, I'm probably not able to do a PAB with them. I think I should just go ahead and get the banks to issue the reversals from their side.

Thoughts?

I'm sure others will chime in, but it may get you on the blacklist even though you are illegitimately in the right to get your money back. Maybe someone will suggest a better way of handling it.

Funny but I said, very early in this thread, that I figured it was rushmore and it wasn't an accident.

 

[premiergaming]

Get them back with there own medicine and reverse before its to late! Dont let them get away with it!

 

[vinylweatherman]

The $4700 that Rushmore erroneously charged has still not been resolved. I haven't received any other communication from them about whether they are refunding the transactions or if I should charge them back myself. ALL emails with Rushmore about this issue were posted earlier in the thread.

We are closing in on 120 days from the first fraudulent charge, which I understand is the time limit for some credit cards on initiating a chargeback. Since they have been non-responsive, and they are a (triple?) rogued casino, I'm probably not able to do a PAB with them. I think I should just go ahead and get the banks to issue the reversals from their side.

Thoughts?

One thought.

Before acting, make certain you have no money tied up in any online casino. Although Rushmore told you to go to your bank, instead of via them, I suspect this is in THEIR interests, not yours. Having ditched this processor, the processor no longer has a hold over Rushmore in terms of security deposits. Rushmore would rather save $4700 than do the right thing as far as this industry is concerned by avoiding you approaching the banks by dealing with the matter themselves. Rushmore employed the processor, not you, and it was Rushmore's responsibilty to ensure that the processor was behaving properly. Rushmore must know that for a mere $4700, the damage to the US processing industry would be disproportionate as after the $4700 had been recovered, the banks would start investigating HOW such a large fraud had been perpetrated in the first case. Once they dig deep enough, they will see that the charges were not just wrongly taken, but were disguised as non gambling purchases in order to bypass UIGEA. The bank would then look for other transactions from the same processor, and the end result could be that processor getting shut down and it's funds frozen. It would affect pretty much all US facing casinos EXCEPT Rushmore, who have moved on to a different processor and tactic.

If the bank is determined enough, they can use this one incident to flag the player as one who uses their bank to make gambling transactions, and will have a look at other transactions with different casinos that may be disguised gambling transactions. This could result in a mass retrospective chargeback of ALL deposits at ALL casinos that the bank can trace, not just the ones in dispute. This is why it beggars belief that Rushmore are actually TELLING a player to issue a chargeback through their bank, rather than dealing with the matter themselves directly with the processor concerned.

This unquantifiable collateral damage is why the industry is so paranoid when players, especially US ones, start mentioning chargebacks as the FIRST action to consider when they have an issue.

The problem is the 120 day window. If Rushmore can stall until then, it forces the player to accept the fraudulent charges or start the ball rolling with the bank.

It might be worth checking whether outright fraud is excluded from this 120 day window, as surely it was designed with consumer/business disputes in mind (a civil matter), rather than criminal fraud by theft (a criminal matter).

It seems rather odd that by stealing from someone's card, a thief can keep the money after 6 months, yet steal a car, and it can still be recovered years later, with the thief being brought before a court.

 

[Nifty29]

One thought.

Before acting, make certain you have no money tied up in any online casino. Although Rushmore told you to go to your bank, instead of via them, I suspect this is in THEIR interests, not yours. Having ditched this processor, the processor no longer has a hold over Rushmore in terms of security deposits. Rushmore would rather save $4700 than do the right thing as far as this industry is concerned by avoiding you approaching the banks by dealing with the matter themselves. Rushmore employed the processor, not you, and it was Rushmore's responsibilty to ensure that the processor was behaving properly. Rushmore must know that for a mere $4700, the damage to the US processing industry would be disproportionate as after the $4700 had been recovered, the banks would start investigating HOW such a large fraud had been perpetrated in the first case. Once they dig deep enough, they will see that the charges were not just wrongly taken, but were disguised as non gambling purchases in order to bypass UIGEA. The bank would then look for other transactions from the same processor, and the end result could be that processor getting shut down and it's funds frozen. It would affect pretty much all US facing casinos EXCEPT Rushmore, who have moved on to a different processor and tactic.

If the bank is determined enough, they can use this one incident to flag the player as one who uses their bank to make gambling transactions, and will have a look at other transactions with different casinos that may be disguised gambling transactions. This could result in a mass retrospective chargeback of ALL deposits at ALL casinos that the bank can trace, not just the ones in dispute. This is why it beggars belief that Rushmore are actually TELLING a player to issue a chargeback through their bank, rather than dealing with the matter themselves directly with the processor concerned.

This unquantifiable collateral damage is why the industry is so paranoid when players, especially US ones, start mentioning chargebacks as the FIRST action to consider when they have an issue.

The problem is the 120 day window. If Rushmore can stall until then, it forces the player to accept the fraudulent charges or start the ball rolling with the bank.

It might be worth checking whether outright fraud is excluded from this 120 day window, as surely it was designed with consumer/business disputes in mind (a civil matter), rather than criminal fraud by theft (a criminal matter).

It seems rather odd that by stealing from someone's card, a thief can keep the money after 6 months, yet steal a car, and it can still be recovered years later, with the thief being brought before a court.

@Keno

If you want legal advice, please go and see a lawyer.

 

[skiny]

Can you even get advice from a lawyer if you're gambling where it's prohibited?

 

[rockycatt]

Can you even get advice from a lawyer if you're gambling where it's prohibited?

in a word no you will just be a poster boy for DO NOT GAMBLE ONLINE

 

[anniemac]

This is a minefield for sure but how many of us have $4700 to just give to a thief? I couldn't absorb the loss even if I wanted to.

There is no way to hold Rushmore responsible. They don't care about paying legitimate winners so what would make anyone think they would give a rat's butt about a person having money stolen from them by a hinky processor.

We, as US players, have no recourse except to do the unthinkable and make a chargeback when we have money stolen by processors. Yet if we do have to go this route, then we are punished for trying to protect our funds.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Please folks, if you are going to play online, use a prepaid card and put only just enough money on it to handle a small amount of play. Crooks can't get what's not there.

 

[Nifty29]

Can you even get advice from a lawyer if you're gambling where it's prohibited?

in a word no you will just be a poster boy for DO NOT GAMBLE ONLINE

Given that lawyer-client conversations are protected, I don't see why one couldn't get an opinion.

I'm not sure if the topic would even have to encompass the legality of online gambling.

I was referring more to the actions that could be taken via the card companies and/or other involved entities.

The reason I said it was so that the OP would realise that none of us are lawyers and that, if they wanted to move forward, they should get proper advice from a professional, as opposed to an armchair attorney etc

I'm not sure how they could become a "poster boy"....??

 

[skiny]

Given that lawyer-client conversations are protected, I don't see why one couldn't get an opinion.

I'm not sure if the topic would even have to encompass the legality of online gambling.

I was referring more to the actions that could be taken via the card companies and/or other involved entities.

The reason I said it was so that the OP would realise that none of us are lawyers and that, if they wanted to move forward, they should get proper advice from a professional, as opposed to an armchair attorney etc

I'm not sure how they could become a "poster boy"....??

I would imagine the opinion would be "You lost money while breaking the law so good luck."

Now, that doesn't mean the next best thing is to get legal advice in a forum or chat room.

Psychiatric and medical advice, yes. Legal advice, no.

 

[SlotMonster]

3D Secure is the solution. Also, if possible, add SMS notification for every transaction. I also suggest you to start checking your account statement on daily basis.

The basic concept of the protocol is to tie the financial authorization process with an online authentication. This authentication is based on a three domain model (hence the 3-D in the name). The three domains are:

Acquirer Domain (the merchant and the bank to which money is being paid).
Issuer Domain (the bank which issued the card being used).
Interoperability Domain (the infrastructure provided by the card scheme, credit, debit, prepaid or other type of finance card, to support the 3-D Secure protocol). Interoperability Domain includes the internet, MPI, ACS and other software providers.

The protocol uses XML messages sent over SSL connections with client authentication (this ensures the authenticity of both peers, the server and the client, using digital certificates).

A transaction using "Verified by Visa" or SecureCode will initiate a redirect to the website of the card issuing bank to authorize the transaction. Each issuer could use any kind of authentication method (the protocol does not cover this) but typically, a password-based method is used, so to effectively buy on the Internet means using a password tied to the card. The Verified by Visa protocol recommends the bank's verification page to load in an inline frame session. In this way, the bank's systems can be held responsible for most security breaches. Today with the ease of sending white listed text messages from registered bank senders, its easy to send an OTP one time password as part of a SMS text message to users mobiles and emails for authentication. At least during enrollment and for forgotten passwords.

 

[vinylweatherman]

3D Secure is the solution. Also, if possible, add SMS notification for every transaction. I also suggest you to start checking your account statement on daily basis.

It is up to the merchant taking the charge whether or not this additional level of security is used. Currently, card issuers do not automatically block transactions that are not made via this method unless their own fraud detection algorithms have reason to flag the attempt.

My cards are all enabled for this, yet MOST casinos bypass this step, yet the transaction goes through. Only at 32Red have I been seeing the redirect to my bank's secure authentication page when using my Barclaycard.

I doubt the questionable processors running these transactions are even allowed access to 3D Secure and it's counterpart.

If the banks INSIST on this step being implemented by merchants, it will freeze out many, and this is probably what has stopped it becoming compulsory. It has F-all to do with protecting cardholders, else it would have been made a compulsory step for all online merchants. The lack of compulsion is all to do with the banks themselves, as by freezing out merchants who won't or can't implement this step, they will lose billions between them in transaction fees to other players such as Paypal. UKash, etc.

Banks normally cover fraud losses themselves, as it is more profitable to let some fraud through in the interests of easy access to online card based transactions than to really crack down and insist on best practice across the board.

Even chip & pin is full of loopholes, and a lack of implementation across the board has allowed a significant weakness to remain in the system. Chip & Pin cards STILL have the magnetic strip, meaning a skimmer can still harvest everything except the PIN from the card.

 

[Keno]

Rushmore is still a MAJOR problem

Hey All,

We're still in a problematic spot with Rushmore's transactions. I called Rushmore and spoke to the manager on duty at the time. He told me outright to do chargebacks for the $4700. He also said a few other things that were completely untrue, like no other customers were affected (Kate said in her emails that plenty of others were affected), or that issuing chargebacks would not be a blemish on my RTG account in this situation because the charges never made it through to their casinos. I told him that I ran this situation by other RTG casino operators and they all said that wasn't true. His response was that they are competitors who would tell me anything to get me to play on their casinos instead of Rushmore. Even worse, he told me that if I asked him that question about other casino processors, that he would lie or bs or tell me whatever it took to get me to play at Rushmore casinos instead of the others. Wow!

But here's the major problem. After calling the bank about one of the CCs that had $2700 of the $4700 charged to it, they are saying that the cutoff for reversals is 60 days and we have no recourse. So now, because we tried to do the right thing by investigating the transactions, corresponding with all the casino groups until the culprit was found, posting on casinomeister, and finally, doing a PaB if needed...we lost out on $2700 worth of fraud. The Visa timeframe is normally 120 to 180 days, but at this particular bank it's only 60. Of course, nobody knew that until now because we were avoiding getting the banks involved. Sigh.

What do we do now? Help please!

 

[just play]

Hey All,

We're still in a problematic spot with Rushmore's transactions. I called Rushmore and spoke to the manager on duty at the time. He told me outright to do chargebacks for the $4700. He also said a few other things that were completely untrue, like no other customers were affected (Kate said in her emails that plenty of others were affected), or that issuing chargebacks would not be a blemish on my RTG account in this situation because the charges never made it through to their casinos. I told him that I ran this situation by other RTG casino operators and they all said that wasn't true. His response was that they are competitors who would tell me anything to get me to play on their casinos instead of Rushmore. Even worse, he told me that if I asked him that question about other casino processors, that he would lie or bs or tell me whatever it took to get me to play at Rushmore casinos instead of the others. Wow!

But here's the major problem. After calling the bank about one of the CCs that had $2700 of the $4700 charged to it, they are saying that the cutoff for reversals is 60 days and we have no recourse. So now, because we tried to do the right thing by investigating the transactions, corresponding with all the casino groups until the culprit was found, posting on casinomeister, and finally, doing a PaB if needed...we lost out on $2700 worth of fraud. The Visa timeframe is normally 120 to 180 days, but at this particular bank it's only 60. Of course, nobody knew that until now because we were avoiding getting the banks involved. Sigh.

What do we do now? Help please!

This probably won't be the most popular reply, but oh well.

I never ever would have given the casino this much leeway, never. I would have found out how long I had to do a chargeback, tried to work with them, if they weren't helpful, I would have done a chargeback. You got your money STOLEN, I don't care how many people tell me "no you can't do a chargeback", that is theft!!! You were a honest player, you weren't a cheat.

I guess it depends what's more important to you? Being able to play at casinos, (is it proven that someone who does a chargeback can never play at casinos again? I mean is it just black or white, or is there a grey area) or $4700?

 

[bpb]

There's little that you can do besides appeal to your bank. They may be willing to waive their 60 day notice requirement based on your banking history. Otherwise, you are going to have to eat that loss.

While you were put into a bad situation, and I completely understand why you didn't immediately report the charges as fraudulent, you were ultimately responsible for knowing your options and the timeframe for executing them.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Hey All,

We're still in a problematic spot with Rushmore's transactions. I called Rushmore and spoke to the manager on duty at the time. He told me outright to do chargebacks for the $4700. He also said a few other things that were completely untrue, like no other customers were affected (Kate said in her emails that plenty of others were affected), or that issuing chargebacks would not be a blemish on my RTG account in this situation because the charges never made it through to their casinos. I told him that I ran this situation by other RTG casino operators and they all said that wasn't true. His response was that they are competitors who would tell me anything to get me to play on their casinos instead of Rushmore. Even worse, he told me that if I asked him that question about other casino processors, that he would lie or bs or tell me whatever it took to get me to play at Rushmore casinos instead of the others. Wow!

But here's the major problem. After calling the bank about one of the CCs that had $2700 of the $4700 charged to it, they are saying that the cutoff for reversals is 60 days and we have no recourse. So now, because we tried to do the right thing by investigating the transactions, corresponding with all the casino groups until the culprit was found, posting on casinomeister, and finally, doing a PaB if needed...we lost out on $2700 worth of fraud. The Visa timeframe is normally 120 to 180 days, but at this particular bank it's only 60. Of course, nobody knew that until now because we were avoiding getting the banks involved. Sigh.

What do we do now? Help please!

Which is EXACTLY what he is doing now. By getting you to issue chargebacks, he will ensure that Rushmore is the ONLY casino that won't show you the door due to there being a blemish recorded on your account at RTG. It is not even Rushmore that has the say in whether or not you get blacklisted, it is the processor against whom the chargeback is issued.

Find out from your bank whether the 60 day window is merely for disupted transactions, rather than outright fraud. The problem of course is that in taking things further, you are going to have to admit that the theft was done by a dodgy processor who was circumventing UIGEA. Your bank does not see this $2700 as a gambling transaction, as it has been coded to look like a legitimate purchase of goods or services from overseas.

If you told the bank this was all to do with gambling, they would probably waive procedure and reverse the transactions rather than have the authorities bust them for violating UIGEA. Unfortunately, it will be the end of you gambling online.

If you want to continue, your only real option is to continue the fight with Rushmore by lighting a big enough fire under their ass that they would rather give you back the money than have it burn out of control in the public gaze.

It seems that their attitude to players who have funds go missing in transit is to chargeback via the bank, this is NOT how 99.99% of the US facing operators want players to deal with the problem. The usual recourse is for the casino to sort it out with the processors and get the money into the players' casino account, from where they can retrieve it, with the banks being none the wiser.

Any fallout won't just affect "other" RTG operators, Rushmore will get caught up in any mess as another wave of processor shutdowns comes along after the banks figure out what Rushmore have been up to as they retrieve the stolen funds.

If you can track down the processor, it may be possible to put pressure on them, especially if they are still operating for other casinos.

 

[anniemac]

Here's a question for all CM readers, just how many of you could absorb $4700 of fraudulent charges? How many of you would?

As far as I am concerned, the casino is the one responsible for this because they hired the processors. I know we are talking about Rushmore here which is just as rogue as Virtual but why are we having to protect thieves and no one is protecting us?

 

[Balthazar]

This probably won't be the most popular reply, but oh well.

I never ever would have given the casino this much leeway, never.

Neither would I.

I once called my bank because there was a $4 unauthorized charge on my credit card, I googled the processor and it was related to some sort of porn site I never heard of. I told them that I'd not pay this, to cancel this card and to send a new one. They agreed.

 

[slotplayer]

Personally, I'd be more interested if cb's will effect a credit score more that a blemish on RTG accounts.

 

[anniemac]

I don't believe that disputing charges that are fraudulent will effect your credit score. Only if you are found to be at fault and the bank had already put the money back into your account would it hurt your score. Then the bank would make you liable for payment. I can tell you that I have had to dispute charges on various cards, not gambling related, and it's never effect my credit score at all.

If you don't owe it, there is no need to pay for it.

 

[LaHutti]

I would definitely NOT.
I don't care what fantasy (illegal by most countries laws) register they would try to put me in. If anyone tried to steal $4700 from me, there is no way they would get away with it, if there was ANYTHING I could do to prevent it...including chargeback.

Here's a question for all CM readers, just how many of you could absorb $4700 of fraudulent charges? How many of you would?

As far as I am concerned, the casino is the one responsible for this because they hired the processors. I know we are talking about Rushmore here which is just as rogue as Virtual but why are we having to protect thieves and no one is protecting us?

 

[Keno]

Which is EXACTLY what he is doing now. By getting you to issue chargebacks, he will ensure that Rushmore is the ONLY casino that won't show you the door due to there being a blemish recorded on your account at RTG. It is not even Rushmore that has the say in whether or not you get blacklisted, it is the processor against whom the chargeback is issued.

(paraphrasing the best I can)

Me: Are you going out of business or something? I don't understand why you're so willing to throw all the other casinos, players, banks, processors, etc. under the bus solely to be able to keep stolen funds.
Rushmore: We're not going anywhere. In fact, our casinos just got better! We recently added...(I zoned out here. Definitely NOT interested in listening to a sales pitch right now.) As far as throwing people under the bus, that's only true for some of them. For instance, why should I care what happens to other casinos? They don't care what happens to us. My job is to get you to play HERE. And why should we care about the processors we no longer work with, like the one that took off with your money? They screwed both of us, so why do I need to worry about helping their business?? You see, that's why YOU have to be the one to do the chargebacks. It's because we can't reverse the transactions from here. They belong to the processor, not Rushmore. And you were the only person this happened to. Trust me, just do chargebacks for those and you'll get paid.
(This was in an email I got from Rushmore's Kate: It seems as these transactions were through a processor we used to use and I have heard that unfortunately some players were charged in error and therefore have charged back those specific amounts.)
Me: But you chose to do business with that processor. As someone who owns several businesses, I know that means it is YOUR responsibility to stand behind them. YOU should be the one who pays me back after I just got raped for $4700 at YOUR casino! I mean, seriously?!?!
Rushmore: We *do* stand behind our processors. All the ones we have now are solid, and fully backed by us.
Me: That other processor was solid too -- at the time. But they took all that money from me without my permission, and now you're telling me I'm SoL for it. That's how you stand behind your processors? Really??
Rushmore: That happened to be an exception...
Me: Yeah, I can't listen to this anymore. *Click*

Sorry for the excessive punctuation and emphasis -- it was a phone conversation, and LOUD at times.

We obviously covered a lot more than just what's above. For example, we discussed other parts of Kate the Cashier's emails, the delays in response time about this, their lack of initiative and apathetic view of my stolen money, etc. Seriously though, this is like talking to a spoiled, selfish 10 year old brat. ME ME ME! Completely detached from the industry, and pretty indicative of a sinking ship imo. I'm so mad that I found the rogue reports in this forum after I already gave them my deposit money (and then some!).

 

[Keno]

Find out from your bank whether the 60 day window is merely for disupted transactions, rather than outright fraud. The problem of course is that in taking things further, you are going to have to admit that the theft was done by a dodgy processor who was circumventing UIGEA. Your bank does not see this $2700 as a gambling transaction, as it has been coded to look like a legitimate purchase of goods or services from overseas.

If you told the bank this was all to do with gambling, they would probably waive procedure and reverse the transactions rather than have the authorities bust them for violating UIGEA. Unfortunately, it will be the end of you gambling online.

Fortunately, the card in question for this $2700 is from a Canadian bank, just in USD. No UIGEA talk necessary. The bank was also told the card had been used for online gaming. No problem either way. But they wouldn't budge from the 60 day deadline.

The other $2000 is spread across 2 different US cards. Those transactions are in the process of being charged back properly.

 

[Balthazar]

Keno do you have any info on that payment processor? Name, etc?

The right thing to do for Rushmore would be to give you your money back and then go after the payment processor to get refunded, but they seem to see this as an impossible task for some reasons. They obviously know more about that payment processor, and the kind of person who's owning it, than they'd admit. Could be owned by straight up criminals for all we know. Criminals running around with nearly 5 Grand that belongs to you, might I add.

You need to drop every bit of info that you have about them.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Fortunately, the card in question for this $2700 is from a Canadian bank, just in USD. No UIGEA talk necessary. The bank was also told the card had been used for online gaming. No problem either way. But they wouldn't budge from the 60 day deadline.

The other $2000 is spread across 2 different US cards. Those transactions are in the process of being charged back properly.

That might be why the deadline was 60 days, not 180.

This is serious in another respect though, as even if the money was stolen, rather than it being a dispute with a merchant, the criminal gets to keep it purely because the bank has an internal policy and can't be arsed to pull out all the stops to ensure a criminal is stripped of the proceeds of the crime.

As this was a fraudulent transaction, rather than a dispute with a merchant, surely it falls under criminal law, not civil.

It looks as though you are going to have to go after Rushmore, or try to trace the processor from the descriptors shown on the card statement.

Perhaps you should now tell Rushmore that your bank will not help by charging back the funds because it is now too late, and that you have had to get the FBI involved as it is now a criminal matter. (The FBI will follow the trail right back to Rushmore, and shut down their processors, which WILL affect Rushmore directly).

The fact that they are prepared to throw anyone who parts ways with them or competes with them under the bus demonstrates how low they have now sunk. Even Virtual group would be embarrassed by this

It looks like we now have a new "super rogue" group to take Virtual's crown.

If this is what it takes to keep Rushmore afloat, they are already out of business. It is not just the processor that screwed everyone, Rushmore are acting in a criminal manner in order to stay afloat, and there is some behind the scenes deal that makes players charging back a better option than dealing with the matter away from the gaze of the US banks.

You can see what the industry in general feels about this from the reaction at Club World when they found out Rushmore had told you to charge back the $4700. You may have lost $2700 by trying to do the right thing for the industry, but you have GAINED that $12,000 withdrawal through NOT charging back straight away when Rushmore told you to. Had you charged back and asked questions later, you would probably not have seen that $12,000.

Whatever you do to get Rushmore to give the money back, make sure it doesn't involve Club World in "collateral damage".

You may also find that you ARE blacklisted by RTG after all of this, and end up with nowhere to play except Rushmore (resist the temptation!).

 

[labeled]

Here's what bothers me about the almost hardline stance some take against charging back - in this case, it's clearly a "rogue processor" judging by Rushmore's willingness to throw them under the bus. So if even the roguest of the rogues are saying "eh, whatever, they're crooks, charge-back" where is this processor going to "report" to with this phantom(?) database? I mean, if RTG is going to just take the word of any shit processor out there that this is a 'problem' customer, where is the fairness to the player?

 

[The Dude]

I've been asked to chime in here on the chargebacking thing. Not a problem. In this situation where the player has gone through all means available on coming to terms with the disappearance of funds, then to charge back is a logical solution. We could ask, "Why didn't Rushmore step in to square this player away?" Well, Rushmore is in no position to pay this player, much less any others since their casinos are - I'm extrapolating here - barely financially afloat.

The main thing is that the player understands the consequences of charging back. He may be blacklisted at those processors involved, but I'm sure that the casinos that have been reading this thread would be willing to waive that blacklisting since they know the chargeback was done with no ill-intent.

 

[rockycatt]

from the bleachers its easy to see who's stealing second base , the cheapest seat in the house /field

so is there a pab processes to the RTG gaming provider [shouldn't they know how there games ] are being presented to the public isn't paying a player even more important then taking a deposit to allow them to play, theres got to be a pardon put in place for a liget charge back give me one good reason that there shoulgdet be one for a criminal riping off a consumer

are we that sick about gambling that we just surrender our money to a puke brained lazy corrupted thug criminal processor

PS i'm assuming that the O P is in fact 100% legit and investigated this is a long ongoing thread

PS# 2 BRYAN just got in what i ment thank you bryan

then if so ill buy the bullets