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32 Red randomness/shoe games

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by Nobunaga, Nov 19, 2008.

    Nov 19, 2008
  1. Nobunaga

    Nobunaga Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Service Clerk
    Location:
    Cambridge ON
    Hey there everyone.Sell me on Red32 casino then.I am Canadian, so I am currently legal to play there and to play most games there.

    Perhaps ownership of this casino, a manager, could end the debate on how traditional shoe games are being treated by online casinos.

    Baccarat, Spanish 21, Blackjack, games that play out of a shoe in a physical casino.

    Why isn't the same happening online?

    Shoe games can be randomized, so why isn't this duplicated online, or the decks protected by cheaters in the same way that pokerstars.com has done for poker?

    I play shoe games, and so I want more information about the why this online casino has done it differently, with a specific answer.

    The people I have talked to offline would join a company like Red32, if they knew that the game would be fair just like their experience in a shoe game, or a non shoe game like craps, roulette, sic bo when played at a physical casino.

    The term "randomization" gets thrown around in internet gaming, but there are lots of cons happening in online gaming too that say that there games are "randomized".

    I hope that I will get an answer on here.I've even asked Casino Meister too, and he was too busy to comment on the shoe game topic.

    I've also been told that these casinos track bets online by the players, so the "randomize" hand comes to clear their bets more often, because the programs is fixing the players situation.

    It's like if you are a player who plays follow the banker in baccarat, and the software knew this and made sure that you would lose so much, when a group of player hands would be "randomized" against that player, in order to make that player forfeit their wagers.

    A real casino, the shoe is random, their are laws against fixing of the shoes by players and casino, and there comes down to the truth, that the situation was random or not random.

    Hope that someone from this company will give me a reply on how they determine randomness.

    Thanks.

    Nobunaga
     
  2. Nov 20, 2008
  3. path

    path Newbie member

    Occupation:
    Operations Director
    Location:
    Gibraltar
    Hi Everyone,

    Nobunaga raises some interesting points (some of which are much discussed around these parts) and has asked for our comments.

    Firstly, dealing with the randomness across all of our games. We are responsible for providing fair and reliable casino games but we have no influence (in any way, shape or form) over the payout percentage that the games deliver; that is the job of the Random Number Generator (RNG). The RNG delivers results randomly, doesnt consider the size of the bet (whether its 1, 10, 1,000 or even free play) nor does it recognise who the player is. It exists purely to churn out an outcome as random as man can make. Indeed, as a condition of our Remote Gambling Licence, we have to provide certification that the equipment used is tested in that it delivers a fair outcome. Given the role of the RNG, I trust that you can see that it is impossible for us to track players and randomise the outcome of any bet in order to make that player forfeit their wagers.

    We offer many variants of Blackjack and Baccarat which are played in a range of decks from single up to eight. In an on-line environment the decks are shuffled at the completion of each individual game; an act which actually reduces the house edge in favour of the player (not my statistical analysis, but that of the wizardofodds).

    If Nobunaga and his associates are not comfortable with the outcome that the RNG would produce versus that of a physical casino, may I suggest trying Live Dealer (a halfway house, if you like). We offer a number of versions of Baccarat in this format, where you view the Dealer via a live video feed. In this environment, there is a shuffle card placed in each deck and when the Dealer reaches this card, a new deck is then brought to the table. The swapping of the decks is then done in front of the camera for all to see. Each deck is stored and locked in its own case to prevent against any tampering of any kind.

    I hope that allays any concerns that you may have but please feel free to PM me if you need any more information on this or any other matter.
     
    10 people like this.
  4. Nov 20, 2008
  5. SlotMonster

    SlotMonster SoftSwiss Representative webmeister

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Somewhere in eternity
    Great post, path! And what about "invariability" of the outcome?
    Will you agree with statement, that even "fair" outcome can be simply changed to any other in favor of Casino? AFAIK, f.e. reel spinning on slots - it's just a visualization of received packets from casino server! And that's why I'm so confident, that every casino shoud implement "Randomness Control" for their games. More about RC option you can find here:
    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    Let me quote few questions:

     
    3 people like this.
  6. Nov 20, 2008
  7. SteveCut

    SteveCut Senior Member

    Occupation:
    None
    Location:
    EU
    Path wrote:

    This is not true. The RNG has no say in the payout percentage. It's task is simply to generate random numbers.

    The RNG does not make it impossible to track players or influence the outcome of bets. It's true that it does not do this itself, but that is hardly the point. This is like saying that a car engine set to rev at 3000 r.p.m. guarantees that the car will progress at a constant speed! It ignores the rest of the car (gears, clutch, brakes etc.). You are ignoring the rest of the software where it would be perfectly possible to control these things. A perfect RNG is no guarantee of fairness!

    This is a very disingenuous statement. You must know very well that you do not shuffle the pack to reduce the house-edge and to give the players an advantage. You shuffle after every game to thwart card-counting and thereby protect the house-edge.

    Regards
    Steve
     
    10 people like this.
  8. Nov 20, 2008
  9. SlotMonster

    SlotMonster SoftSwiss Representative webmeister

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Somewhere in eternity
    Excellent post and comments, Steve! :thumbsup:
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Nov 20, 2008
  11. zuga

    zuga Dormant account webmeister

    Occupation:
    Webmaster
    Location:
    Belgrade, Serbia
    i second that !!
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. Nov 21, 2008
  13. path

    path Newbie member

    Occupation:
    Operations Director
    Location:
    Gibraltar
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Nov 21, 2008
  15. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. Nov 26, 2008
  17. Grey

    Grey Dormant account

    Occupation:
    education
    Location:
    France
    The interesting point of view, but I have one question.
    How we can check your words?
     
  18. Nov 26, 2008
  19. SlotMonster

    SlotMonster SoftSwiss Representative webmeister

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Somewhere in eternity
    There is no way to check it, and I more than sure about it.
    The only one method to prove, maybe not only randomness, but invariability too, is Randomness Control! And pre-formulated sequence - the best way to prove that your bet size doesn't matter!
     
  20. Nov 26, 2008
  21. Jufo

    Jufo Three-toed sloth

    Occupation:
    Teacher
    Location:
    Finland
    Yes, Microgaming should include some kind of Randomness Control into their software. Listen Path, maybe 32Red could be industry leader in this aspect and be the first one to include randomness verification. I am sure you see from the posts here that this is a very big issue with players. Maybe you could ask Microgaming whether such feature would be possible to implement?
     
    1 person likes this.
  22. Nov 26, 2008
  23. SlotMonster

    SlotMonster SoftSwiss Representative webmeister

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Somewhere in eternity
    It's not only about Microgaming casinos. I truly believe, that Randomness Control should be developed and implemented in every online-casino!
    And it's not the case, when Casino Manager come to us say "Our casino is fair because we have great CS, many deposit options, we treat our customers like Kings, and we pay fast". For me good reputation doesn't mean that Casino's RND produce "fair" outcome and Casino cannot change (or doesn't change) game results while play.
     
    2 people like this.
  24. Nov 27, 2008
  25. aka23

    aka23 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Technical
    Location:
    Planet Earth
    If a casino were to cheat, I doubt it would have anything to do with a faulty RNG. It would be unnecessarily awkward to change to the core RNG. Instead it's more an issue of how the RNG is used or not used. For example, a software provider could manipulate a blackjack game by programming the software to draw a random card from the deck (using RNG), then discard that card if it caused a dealer bust and draw a new random card (using RNG). A software could also make the outcome of a BJ game like a weighted slot, instead of a deck of cards. The weighted slot would still use a fair RNG, but it wouldn't play like a deck of cards.
     
    1 person likes this.
  26. Nov 27, 2008
  27. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    This had indeed happened.

    One casino I joined had top notch service, paid faster than iNetBet, and had a 100% bonus on EVERY DEPOSIT. It worked like EZBonus, and released bonus funds at 2.5% and this INCLUDED BLACKJACK.


    After a while, I got just a bit suspicions that I could NEVER seem to make WR, even on Blackjack. Interestingly the dealer played like MGS blackjack, forever getting Ace up, 20s and Blackjacks. Further the game had a SHOE!!!! The rules stipulated that there was NO reshuffle until the shuffle card was reached. I calculated the house edge with their rules to be around 0.0045%, far too low to explain NEVER being able to beat it with a 2.5% bonus redemption.
    I bought a blackjack strategy program that worked on a shoe game, and tried it, and it seemed the results went the other way. The application suggested strategy based on remaining shoe composition.

    I thought I would then gather data to see if I could "bust" them, but sadly I was beaten to it, they WENT BUST:D

    Later, someone pointed out their Deuces Wild VP paid 111%, (and you could use the 100% bonus on it), so clearly something was up.

    I just had my ass bitten, that's what was up:mad:

    Cheating software, yet they went on about their RNG....etc.......

    If I now see patterns that just "beggar belief", I think back to this 2004/5 episode, and it can be hard to convince me there is nothing to find.

    Episodes like the MiniVegas "illegitimate play" fiasco come along and reinforce this view. This episode would never have happened if the games were perfectly random.

    MY curious BJ experiment, 80,000 hands and 844 units ahead - simply beggars belief, and all this happens to ME, a single player.

    Because of the secrecy surrounding how games calculate their outcomes, the impression is given that there is something to hide. The "might help our competitors" doesn't wash, since the method of deriving the outcome should be mathematics, not "commercial secrecy", and the mathematics is available at any good university.
     
  28. Nov 27, 2008
  29. SlotMonster

    SlotMonster SoftSwiss Representative webmeister

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Somewhere in eternity
    vinyl, I think it's too obvious that casino is cheating. And it's obvious, that any casino should have (and even must have) certificated RNG to froduce "fair" outcome and Randomness Control to prove that "fair" outcome wasn't changed while playing. Combination of these two factors (certificated RNG + Randomness Control) will guarantee hundred-per-cent fairness of the Casino. And it's very-very-very BAD, that there is still ONLY ONE casino, which GUARANTEE that its games totally fair and game results could be easily checked!
     
  30. Nov 27, 2008
  31. Jufo

    Jufo Three-toed sloth

    Occupation:
    Teacher
    Location:
    Finland
    To be fair, the randomness control only verifies that the outcome is not affected by bet size. The randomness control doesn't guarantee for example that dealt cards are randomly picked.
     
    1 person likes this.
  32. Nov 27, 2008
  33. SlotMonster

    SlotMonster SoftSwiss Representative webmeister

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Somewhere in eternity
    Reread my post again, Jufo. It was clearly said that:

    Not certificated RNG will guarantee this, and not Randonmess Control, but certificated RNG plus Randomness Control.
     
  34. Nov 27, 2008
  35. Jufo

    Jufo Three-toed sloth

    Occupation:
    Teacher
    Location:
    Finland
    Hmph, certificated RNG doesn't quarantee fairness like it doesn't at any other casino with certificated RNG. RNG + Randomness control only quarantees that the outcome is independent of what you bet, but the software can still manipulate what the outcome is.

    Suppose that the certified RNG in Video Poker gives: Jack (clubs), Queen (clubs), King (clubs), Ace (clubs), Ten (clubs).

    How can you be certain that the software doesn't interfere and give you

    Jack (clubs), Queen (clubs), King (clubs), Ace (clubs), Ten (spades)
     
  36. Nov 27, 2008
  37. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    Do you have some kind of financial interest in that casino or in "Randomness Control"? "Randomness control" only proves that say, in a card game, the order of the cards was not changed from the previously generated shuffle. Even if the RNG is certified fair, it still does not mean that the numbers are converted to cards in a fair way. Furthermore, it is also possible for a casino to select a card at random from the remaining one whenever a new card is needed, without generating the whole shuffle in advance. The only method I l know that guarantees fairness for the player without having to trust external certifying agencies is Fairdice.
     
  38. Nov 27, 2008
  39. SlotMonster

    SlotMonster SoftSwiss Representative webmeister

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Somewhere in eternity
    Well, first of all, almost all casinos cannot guarantee even this.
    The second thing is, even if what you said was true (about changing cards) - I doubt anyone were still playing at casinos.

    Edit: GrandMaster, I don't have any financial interest. I have only personal interest to be able to play at casino and be sure, that this Casino doesn't cheat or change play.
    It's impossible. Changing order of cards appearance will cause changing of checksum given before game.
     

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