£200 in deposits, bet values 20p to 40p on low variance 96% rtp slots

[dealer wins]

Not a single feature.

Played Rick and Morty, The Goonies, Immoral Romance, Thunderstruck 2, Raging Rex 1,2 and 3, raging rhino. primal megaways and several other slots all on MrQ all with a 96% or higher RTP.

It sucks, and I struggle to believe the RTPs are legit TBH

 

[gonzo fonso]

ive noticed in the last few weeks slots have changed,they are very dry,yes the RTP is lower that its ever been,no fun is it,just ask yourself the question like im doing is it actually worth playing anymore.

 

[Jono777]

Nice typo on Immortal Romance.

Pretty much describes the complete slotting experience these days

 

[snorky510238]

It’s bullshit! Been calling it for the past couple of years. Not a prayer that there’s even the slightest chance it’s random.

 

[Itaghai]

Not a single feature.

Played Rick and Morty, The Goonies, Immoral Romance, Thunderstruck 2, Raging Rex 1,2 and 3, raging rhino. primal megaways and several other slots all on MrQ all with a 96% or higher RTP.

It sucks, and I struggle to believe the RTPs are legit TBH

You are getting something extremely wrong.
One thing is the RTP, other is the volatility.

In a hypothetical scenario for this, if you bet 1£ for 10000 spins and you get 0x in 9999 spins and then one hit of 9600£, you would be playing a 96% RTP slot but with extreme volatility.

If you want your money to last but slowly bleeding it out, play slots with low volatility.
If you want to lose your money quickly but have a shot of hitting something really good, play high volatility slots.

 

[gonzo fonso]

i went into live chat on friday to close my KWIFF casino account,i mentioned to the guy that i was leaving because the RTP on slots has been lowered on many slots and i wasnt enjoying my time here anymore,he just seem to go on about gambling safe tools etc and asked me when i gambled was it to make money ? or for the entertainment aspect ? then said its about the random number generator,he said someone can win big on the first spin then others play thousands of spins and win nothing,i said yes the majority of us is certainly the latter.
the BONANZA slot on there is 94% i notiched it was playing different but didnt really bother looking at the RTP this alone put me off playing anymore at this site,so everytime i play at the odd other site will have to check RTP basically the difference between 94% and 96% is massive

 

[snorky510238]

When you’ve played Bonanza as much as we have, you notice the smallest tweak or change. It’s been changed at all sites, that’s for sure. Whether the correct rtp is being displayed is another question.

BTG were already an underhanded bunch of crooks so getting Evolution onboard will have put them up there with politicians, when it comes to lies and screwing the public.

 

[gonzo fonso]

When you’ve played Bonanza as much as we have, you notice the smallest tweak or change. It’s been changed at all sites, that’s for sure. Whether the correct rtp is being displayed is another question.

BTG were already an underhanded bunch of crooks so getting Evolution onboard will have put them up there with politicians, when it comes to lies and screwing the public.

ive been playing bonanza for about 5 years quite frequently,yes i have notiched more change in the last 6 months,one really bizzare thing is in all the bonuses ive had which must be 700-800 not once never a 4 cart trigger 3 cart of course that itself well makes me question everything,its never random,its a machine so its fixed

 

[snorky510238]

Yes, I haven’t seen the 4 cart trigger in the last 1,000 bonuses either. I’ve also noticed far more paying less than x100 and the max wins not producing a win of any note, the multiplier in the bonus game, rarely hitting x20 or more, equating to a lot of dead spins in the bonus. Along with the amount of consecutive dead spins in the base game, which has definitely increased. Regularly get 10-15 and I’ve even had one patch where I hit 1 win in 31 spins (unbelievable) and it was x1.5 at that.

 

[gonzo fonso]

yet we still play it,ive had shocking runs of £50 deposit at 0.40 with not a win above x15 like ive said many times before this game never shows its true potential,i guess if it was between bonanza and wwtbam one would have to choose wwtbam everytime because its max pay is about x4 more than bonanza yes

 

[snorky510238]

I don’t play anywhere near as much nowadays for that very reason. It just isn’t worth it. There was a time that playing online was really enjoyable and seemed fair. Not the case now, I hasten to add.

 

[justdoit]

one time I played on MrQ I did bonus hunt £1000 I got 25 bonuses on £1, Return was just under £500, never played again, Bet365 is much better casino

 

[mcgameboy]

Not a single feature.

Played Rick and Morty, The Goonies, Immoral Romance, Thunderstruck 2, Raging Rex 1,2 and 3, raging rhino. primal megaways and several other slots all on MrQ all with a 96% or higher RTP.

It sucks, and I struggle to believe the RTPs are legit TBH

Absolutely NOT low variance games. Higher tier RTP YES (except for Rhino, which is still decent enough at...what is it 95.91% or something close to that?)

I played TS2 as recently as yesterday. And had to wait until my FORTY-THIRD spin to get my first win ABOVE ONE TIMES STAKE. Marvellous.

In that same session, I got FOUR features in the space of just 48 spins. Wonderful...or so you would think.
All four of them paid less than 15x. And then, later on, in the space of 54 spins, I suffered a net loss of 46x.
How the hell can a player win with "luck" like that?

Low variance? Not a fucking chance. That said, TS2 can still pay reasonably well.
But you will most likely have to suffer a lot of balance shredding first before you get to see/enjoy any of the higher end payouts. At which point, it may only serve to be a pyrrhic victory.

These games have clearly had their volatility increased on the TAKE end, resulting in a much more efficient and ruthless shredding of a player's balance, while at the same time FAILING MISERABLY to deliver the HIGH QUALITY PAYOUTS.

Don't even get me started on Rhino. That game was nerfed to the gills years ago the moment they killed off the Flash version and gave it a HTML5 "makeover".
What was an already high variance game is now a very high variance game with a severely diminished base game.
Without that potential safety net, players are now fully dependant on the features delivering.
Which they do not.
Like IR, a once all-time great slot reduced to a shell of its former greatness, nerfed to the point of being virtually unplayable.

What I have noticed happen a hell of a lot more frequently (particularly in the last 12 months) is the regular INSTANT compensated retributive meltdowns a slot has the moment you DARE to win anything between 15x and 50x. It's not even subtly disguised, it is blatant and totally in your face.
To the extent that you can't even enjoy the low end "big wins" for even a brief moment.
Because it will almost certainly be wiped out within a minute or two, a punishment for having the audacity to land a win that temporarily stops the almost unrelenting rot.

There was a time when you could session games like the likes of IR, TS2 and Finer Reels for SEVERAL HOURS and you could not only win, but also continue to increase your balance. Higher peaks, shallower troughs. You obviously would get bad sessions fairly often, but at least when you were lucky to catch it in a good mood, it played (and more importantly paid) really good.

But now, the opposite is true. The peaks are not only shallower, but they are also significantly scarcer in supply. While the troughs are considerably deeper and much more frequent.

As for Primal, it's nothing more than yet another clear case of higher RTP completely failing to translate to higher quality gameplay.
A game that is chronically difficult to bonus, a game that is chronically difficult to land a 100x win on (in my experience at least). Not a chance in hell that game is low variance. Just another game with high RTP, low variance payouts and high variance take.

All in all, slots have never been harder to win on than they are right now. And that doesn't even include providers with games that have "nosebleed variance", such as NLC, Hacksaw and Relax.

Providers and casinos not only want your money, they want it as quickly as possible and increasingly give less of a rats ass about whether you received the level of entertainment your hard earned money paid for/deserved.

If one mug decides to call it quits, there will be always be a fresh mug waiting to replace them.
Casinos don't need to give a shit about whether players get to ever enjoy themselves while playing slots anymore. Or player retention.

It's all about the profits. Nothing else matters, especially the happiness of the customer.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Aren’t all the games mentioned above fairly high variance with the exception of Rick N Morty and Goonies?? Despite some of the in play action on these games they can certainly make you wait for a feature tho.

Primal has ALWAYS been brutal and has never pretended to be low variance.

Rhino is 99% shite unless u get a decent line up in the feature. Always has been. Funnily enough I played this on 365 the other day. I got a very quick and shite feature then the game shredded £400 on 80p stake for absolutely nothing. Not one feature which I have to admit I found baffling given that most of them are dreadful.

Can’t comment on the Raging Rex games but again aren’t they just poor copies of an already poor raging rhino??

TS2 and IR have never really impressed me but I would agree they could hold the balance to a reasonable degree even tho like the above mentioned games the features are normally dire.

Obv a lot of the games mentioned are fairly old but all have always had the ability to go on baron runs. It absolutely sucks but primal especially can deliver fairly chunky wins (mainly from the base rather than the feature) and the miracle line up in rhino is a treat for what compared to some of todays possibilities is a fairly small win!!

It is frustrating, I’ve had so many almost unimaginable scenarios on games that really shouldn’t be capable of sucking so much given what they can deliver.

It’s difficult for providers to get a good balance, and even more difficult for players to load one up and get consistency as a result.

 

[SlotsBlogger]

I have to agree with every sentiment, I play at Grosvenor and they are always running a slot tournament which normally runs for a 7 day period. I'm playing a brand new slot (not one I would ever touch), it's set at 94% RTP and over the course of the tournament I expect to lose but made up for the fact that i'll get that back plus more with the tournament winnings. I'm currently in second place for £500.

Over the course of play I will pretty much be doing thousands and thousands of spins on minimum stake. Its eye watering the battering my balance is taking. To start with the game was playing ok and the balance was evening out, but third day in an i'm getting absolutely destroyed. I think im on about 25% RTP at the moment. Every deposit (£50 a time) just seems to be getting wiped out at a fast rate with nothing happening and bonuses getting more scarce with those that land barely paying 50x back.

I've noticed this more and more with playing games on an extended period.

 

[mcgameboy]

Well guess who played Rhino for the first time in over a year today?

Yep...this f*&% numpty called yours truly did....that's who.

And in news that will shock ABSOLUTELY BLOODY NOBODY, here is what happened.

100 quid in, 40p bets. I actually managed to make this deposit last an hour and a half.
Because I got TWELVE features. Which is rather good actually.

But it was anything but "rather good".
Because unfortunately, the "best" one of those twelve paid 30x. And it was 39 spins long. *

* Actually, after checking back, the 39 spin feature wasn't quite the best one.
And the best win was slightly more than 30x (31.5x - if you include the 2x triggering win)
Details below at the bottom of the post.

As for the others, here were the erm....."lowlights". Mainly because there weren't any highlights to report!

I had EIGHT features end with a BOG. Of which....

SIX CONSECUTIVE features paid less than 7x
FIVE CONSECUTIVE features paid less than 3.5x.
FOUR CONSECUTIVE features paid less than 1.5x and last but not least...
TWO CONSECUTIVE features that paid ZERO.

Across three features, I at one point had TWENTY-FOUR CONSECUTIVE FREE SPINS, ALL OF WHICH WERE DEAD SPINS. TWENTY FUCKING FOUR.

Are you fucking kidding me, Shite And Blunder?

In all seriousness, how the actual fuck can a slot "randomly" pull out the worst possible set of spins the very moment a feature is triggered. I mean, do they actually WANT you to think that a slot is RIGGED beyond belief?

Of course, that is only part of the story.

Biggest base game win....25x. Surprised I even got one that big tbh.
But of course, there was a bloody craptonne of "what might have beens" in the base game.
Four times I was one reel out from 8 ways of six cheetahs.
One reel short of six ways of crocodiles.
One reel short of 4 ways of 5 Rhinos SEVEN times.
One reel short of 12 ways, 8 ways and 6 ways of Rhinos once each.

In EVERY SINGLE ONE of those spins mentioned above, the one reel that let me down was on the left.
So I ended up with either a 2OAK or a dead spin.

In terms of buyers remorse, that session EASILY ranks among my top 5 of all time in nearly THIRTEEN YEARS of online slotting.

I cannot for the life of me remember a session as frustrating as that.
Where literally nothing goes right, but your agony and frustration is prolonged by the sheer volume of wasted opportunities, that only serve to add insult to injury.

I honestly wish I had busted out having seen only one or two shit features.
Because at least that would have been in line with my less than positive expectations, as well as being less frustrating and painful.
If you play a slot for an hour and a half, get twelve features (which is averaging one every seven or eight minutes) and you STILL can't manage even ONE win of a mere 35x stake during the ENTIRE session, then I think you are more than entitled to believe that a slot has been completely nerfed into the ground and is damn near unplayable. It ain't right.

It was that frustrating that I have now closed my account for three months at the casino where this took place (Gala).

I am absolutely fucking done with casinos that think it is OK to treat me like crap with "entertainment" like THAT. Oh...and to hell with the "the casino doesn't control the games" line. It happened at their site, and I can't complain to the provider. They were my hosts and I had a thoroughly miserable time. So fuck them
and their pathetic rewards wheels where the biggest thing you can win is 50 fucking pence.

EDIT: Oh I just realised, I recorded the features on that Microsoft game bar thingymebob, so I can actually give more accurate details. NB. The 2x triggering wins are not included.

Feature 1 - 13 spins, paid 65p (1.625x)
Feature 2 - 18 spins,, paid £11 (27.5x)
Feature 3 - 8 spins, paid £5.50 (13.75x)
Feature 4 - 13 spins, paid £1.30 (3.25x)
Feature 5 - 8 spins, paid £11.80 (29.5x)
Feature 6 - 39 spins, paid £10.80 (27x)
Feature 7 - 8 spins, paid £1.30 (3.25x)
Feature 8 - 8 spins, paid 40p (1x)
Feature 9 - 13 spins, paid 50p (1.25x) NB. 10p win on last spin
Feature 10 - 8 spins, paid ZERO
Feature 11 - 8 spins, paid ZERO
Feature 12 - 13 spins, paid £2.70 (6.75x). NB. First spin retrigger, but didn't get first win until spin 9, which ended the 24 dead free spins streak.

 

[gonzo fonso]

Well guess who played Rhino for the first time in over a year today?

Yep...this f*&% numpty called yours truly did....that's who.

And in news that will shock ABSOLUTELY BLOODY NOBODY, here is what happened.

100 quid in, 40p bets. I actually managed to make this deposit last an hour and a half.
Because I got TWELVE features. Which is rather good actually.

But it was anything but "rather good".
Because unfortunately, the "best" one of those twelve paid 30x. And it was 39 spins long. *

* Actually, after checking back, the 39 spin feature wasn't quite the best one.
And the best win was slightly more than 30x (31.5x - if you include the 2x triggering win)
Details below at the bottom of the post.

As for the others, here were the erm....."lowlights". Mainly because there weren't any highlights to report!

I had EIGHT features end with a BOG. Of which....

SIX CONSECUTIVE features paid less than 7x
FIVE CONSECUTIVE features paid less than 3.5x.
FOUR CONSECUTIVE features paid less than 1.5x and last but not least...
TWO CONSECUTIVE features that paid ZERO.

Across three features, I at one point had TWENTY-FOUR CONSECUTIVE FREE SPINS, ALL OF WHICH WERE DEAD SPINS. TWENTY FUCKING FOUR.

Are you fucking kidding me, Shite And Blunder?

In all seriousness, how the actual fuck can a slot "randomly" pull out the worst possible set of spins the very moment a feature is triggered. I mean, do they actually WANT you to think that a slot is RIGGED beyond belief?

Of course, that is only part of the story.

Biggest base game win....25x. Surprised I even got one that big tbh.
But of course, there was a bloody craptonne of "what might have beens" in the base game.
Four times I was one reel out from 8 ways of six cheetahs.
One reel short of six ways of crocodiles.
One reel short of 4 ways of 5 Rhinos SEVEN times.
One reel short of 12 ways, 8 ways and 6 ways of Rhinos once each.

In EVERY SINGLE ONE of those spins mentioned above, the one reel that let me down was on the left.
So I ended up with either a 2OAK or a dead spin.

In terms of buyers remorse, that session EASILY ranks among my top 5 of all time in nearly THIRTEEN YEARS of online slotting.

I cannot for the life of me remember a session as frustrating as that.
Where literally nothing goes right, but your agony and frustration is prolonged by the sheer volume of wasted opportunities, that only serve to add insult to injury.

I honestly wish I had busted out having seen only one or two shit features.
Because at least that would have been in line with my less than positive expectations, as well as being less frustrating and painful.
If you play a slot for an hour and a half, get twelve features (which is averaging one every seven or eight minutes) and you STILL can't manage even ONE win of a mere 35x stake during the ENTIRE session, then I think you are more than entitled to believe that a slot has been completely nerfed into the ground and is damn near unplayable. It ain't right.

It was that frustrating that I have now closed my account for three months at the casino where this took place (Gala).

I am absolutely fucking done with casinos that think it is OK to treat me like crap with "entertainment" like THAT. Oh...and to hell with the "the casino doesn't control the games" line. It happened at their site, and I can't complain to the provider. They were my hosts and I had a thoroughly miserable time. So fuck them
and their pathetic rewards wheels where the biggest thing you can win is 50 fucking pence.

EDIT: Oh I just realised, I recorded the features on that Microsoft game bar thingymebob, so I can actually give more accurate details. NB. The 2x triggering wins are not included.

Feature 1 - 13 spins, paid 65p (1.625x)
Feature 2 - 18 spins,, paid £11 (27.5x)
Feature 3 - 8 spins, paid £5.50 (13.75x)
Feature 4 - 13 spins, paid £1.30 (3.25x)
Feature 5 - 8 spins, paid £11.80 (29.5x)
Feature 6 - 39 spins, paid £10.80 (27x)
Feature 7 - 8 spins, paid £1.30 (3.25x)
Feature 8 - 8 spins, paid 40p (1x)
Feature 9 - 13 spins, paid 50p (1.25x) NB. 10p win on last spin
Feature 10 - 8 spins, paid ZERO
Feature 11 - 8 spins, paid ZERO
Feature 12 - 13 spins, paid £2.70 (6.75x). NB. First spin retrigger, but didn't get first win until spin 9, which ended the 24 dead free spins streak.

so what is the issue here is it the RTP or something else ?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

And yet over in this thread I've been comfortably lumping away at HV BTG games (albeit all their back catalogue that is still on the proper RTP at VS, as VS are taking their new stuff at 94% and I won't touch that with a bargepole), with all the stats to back it up, and some decent withdrawals too, so it's not a figment of my imagination or wishful thinking.

Depositing at Videoslots again, because at least it works - Page 11 - Casinomeister Forum

Recently I got twenty hours of play off a single £100 deposit, and at the end of that withdrew £290, all done on 20p spins.

I'm not saying some games out there haven't been changed in terms of their volatility profile, and I'm not familiar with all the games listed above, but as long as you're playing 96% or better (a 4% house edge is already very generous and don't let anyone tell you different), and have the bankroll to ride out the peaks and troughs, 96% on a random game is still going to balance out alright given enough spins. (Albeit you're inevitably going to lose in the long run, because that's literally the only reason they exist in the first place.)

Personally I wouldn't be doing 40p spins on a £100 deposit, the comfort zone I've landed on over the years is a 500x bankroll. For me to go up to 40p spins I'd need a bankroll of £200, which used to be a regular thing in the days of 100% bonuses but they don't seem to exist anymore

Obviously things can still go wrong even with a 500x bankroll, but assuming even a really bad session knocking around 60-70%, that's going to buy enough spins to give you a decent chance of landing a solid win at some point.

 

[slot_zombie]

Tbh lasting 1.5 hours @40p on Rhino with that deposit sounds like victory. I would be busting out in 45 minutes if I still played it.

It's always been a tough beast, even on Flash. I ploughed hundreds of thousands through it on Flash, was pretty much obsessed with it for 4 years. Only saw 18 rhinos in the bonus ONCE. But it used to give you a decent run for your money most of the time. Plenty of base game hits and decent retriggering features.

Contrast with the shuddering mess of the HTML version which loves a Bonus Guarantee, crashes if you try to skip the count up when you get a win with Rhinos, constantly shows near misses and for some reason has 9's showing a lot more than the original.

The RTP hasn't changed, so where have the payouts gone? Unless there is a scripted bonus or two in there which pays multiple lots of 16-18 rhinos (unlikely), I can't explain it. Nefarious to say the least.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Chops, I’m not disagreeing with what you’ve said, but if you think the norm is sessioning BTG games for a few days and hitting (was it 2 or 3) 500x + bonuses/wins and one of over 1000x then you are wrong. That is incredibly fortunate , of that there is no denying.

To put this into context, it took me 1 year to hit a 500x bonus on bonanza and 2 years to hit a 1000x plus and believe me I played them a shit load more than ur few days!! If you take those incredibly Spawny features / base hits out on QOR then your money doesn’t last anywhere near as much if u replace them with the usual 30x shitters. U got very lucky.

But you are correct, play the games long enough and you’ll make RTP on most games. The only exception I can think of is maybe DOA 2 which if you don’t run well enough on will kill you.

It’s funny how the guy above is complaining about a load of features on rhino doing fuck all. That’s what the game normally does. But compare that to what I got. 500 x stake in deposits for 1 feature?? At least he had a chance!!!

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Tbh lasting 1.5 hours @40p on Rhino with that deposit sounds like victory. I would be busting out in 45 minutes if I still played it.

It's always been a tough beast, even on Flash. I ploughed hundreds of thousands through it on Flash, was pretty much obsessed with it for 4 years. Only saw 18 rhinos in the bonus ONCE. But it used to give you a decent run for your money most of the time. Plenty of base game hits and decent retriggering features.

Contrast with the shuddering mess of the HTML version which loves a Bonus Guarantee, crashes if you try to skip the count up when you get a win with Rhinos, constantly shows near misses and for some reason has 9's showing a lot more than the original.

The RTP hasn't changed, so where have the payouts gone? Unless there is a scripted bonus or two in there which pays multiple lots of 16-18 rhinos (unlikely), I can't explain it. Nefarious to say the least.

All the bonuses are pre determined on rhino aren’t they???

 

[jasonuk]

Not a single feature.

Played Rick and Morty, The Goonies, Immoral Romance, Thunderstruck 2, Raging Rex 1,2 and 3, raging rhino. primal megaways and several other slots all on MrQ all with a 96% or higher RTP.

It sucks, and I struggle to believe the RTPs are legit TBH

As already mentioned - most of these are not "low" variance slots though by the old standard or the new.... most of them would be somewhere between high (old scale) and medium-high (new scale).

Don't even get me started on Rhino. That game was nerfed to the gills years ago the moment they killed off the Flash version and gave it a HTML5 "makeover".
What was an already high variance game is now a very high variance game with a severely diminished base game.
Without that potential safety net, players are now fully dependant on the features delivering.
Which they do not.
Like IR, a once all-time great slot reduced to a shell of its former greatness, nerfed to the point of being virtually unplayable.

I wouldn't say the variance has changed, it's just that you get three rhinos and the game crashes out because of a botched HTML5 conversion... it amazes me that SG/LnW still haven't fixed this last I checked because it makes the game unplayable.

100 quid in, 40p bets. I actually managed to make this deposit last an hour and a half.
Because I got TWELVE features. Which is rather good actually.

But it was anything but "rather good".
Because unfortunately, the "best" one of those twelve paid 30x. And it was 39 spins long. *

Rhino was always about the one big hit... the bonus guarantee paid frequently because it was such a lumpy slot in the bonus. Cue flashbacks to @dunover screaming "Jack Queen pissing King" into the microphone...

It's on the brutal end of the spectrum, but I could go back through my notes from 6-8 years ago and probably find similar... it was all about multiple (ideally four) paying wilds in the bonus.

All the bonuses are pre determined on rhino aren’t they???

Absolutely not, WMS used genuine reels - much like with the Life of Luxury discussion a few months back, the PAR sheets may still be out there with the full reel strips and everything. The only thing that would be undisclosed is the distribution of 2x and 3x multipliers but you can probably work that out from gameplay (or RTP modelling) if you really wanted to.

I can't speak for modern LnW games, but old school WMS did almost everything with natural odds.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Certainly on the old flash version, if the bonus crashed it would restart it back at the very beginning and produce the exact same results?? That’s what made me think it was all predetermined?? Surely a random call for each spin wouldn’t do that???

 

[jasonuk]

Certainly on the old flash version, if the bonus crashed it would restart it back at the very beginning and produce the exact same results?? That’s what made me think it was all predetermined?? Surely a random call for each spin wouldn’t do that???

Those results have already been determined by previous RNG calls, it would be a pretty serious violation of game principles (and pretty easy to exploit) if you could reset the bonus in such a way.

Which is also why you would see Microgaming and WMS bonuses occasionally bomb out in the middle - your connection crashed, or some part of the site went down. If it can't commit the RNG result to the database and/or audit logs, it cannot continue the game round and will stop until it can.

I would say nobody would be dumb enough to send the RNG result to the client before committing it to the database / audit logs, but I also remember BTG did exactly that... RocknRolla's infamous two-for-one Extra Chilli bonus, it tried to write the entire game round at the end of the bonus, failed, and then played out a completely different bonus round the second time...

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Well yes because each spin on extra chilli ‘s free spins is an entirely independent call to the server? So if it couldn’t close the bonus round out for whatever reason at the end of the feature then obviously a completely different one played out when reloading it. This bug had happened before hadn’t it on BTG games. But it didn’t mean you could just close it down and start the bonus again and get something completely different, it was obviously a fuck up there end somehow?

Thus proving despite what some people think on here that each spin IS a random call and not predetermined in the features.

Obviously I’m not in anyway shape or form a developer for games, so how does rhino work then, if when the game crashes (not by you closing the game down urself) I’m talking about a fuck up in the games free spins?

If unlike BTG it doesn’t make random calls for each spin and just replays the bonus out spin for spin? Does it remember the previous calls and then replay them and then carry on with random calls for each spin after??

 

[jasonuk]

Well yes because each spin on extra chilli ‘s free spins is an entirely independent call to the server? So if it couldn’t close the bonus round out for whatever reason at the end of the feature then obviously a completely different one played out when reloading it. This bug had happened before hadn’t it on BTG games. But it didn’t mean you could just close it down and start the bonus again and get something completely different, it was obviously a fuck up there end somehow?

I've highlighted the part which is the design error. Each step (spin / RNG call) should be recorded by the game provider before the client or operator can act on it, to prevent tampering and/or manipulation.

So in the scenario above, the game should either:

• the provider has a technical fault - the first 23 spins are recorded, the game round can be concluded when the fault is resolved.
• the operator has a technical fault - the provider records the 24th spin, and will keep replaying the same final spin until the operator acknowledges the concluded game round.

This is to stop intermediate parties tampering with the result - operators can reject game rounds that have big wins, players can reject game rounds that don't have big wins. In this case it was a genuine technical error by the operator (and iirc they paid up the difference), but it exposed a severe design vulnerability in the BTG system.

Thus proving despite what some people think on here that each spin IS a random call and not predetermined in the features.

The age-old test was to disconnect from the game mid-bonus and see what happened - BTG, MG and WMS all do independent RNG calls and thus a game round would stop because the client cannot tell the server it is ready to continue.

Obviously I’m not in anyway shape or form a developer for games, so how does rhino work then, if when the game crashes (not by you closing the game down urself) I’m talking about a fuck up in the games free spins?

If unlike BTG it doesn’t make random calls for each spin and just replays the bonus out spin for spin? Does it remember the previous calls and then replay them and then carry on with random calls for each spin after??

People used to use it as a trick to record their "replays" - they saw the big win, closed the game out, started recording and then recorded the whole bonus (including future spins they had not seen). And yes, it'll replay the spins it has already performed, then resume with new RNG calls for the remaining spins of the bonus.

A modern equivalent (albeit far more manipulative) would be showing the bonus result screen of a previous bonus round (from a previous session) because you haven't done the next spin. It doesn't change past behaviour, but that information is made available for future use (in this case, dopamine hits)

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The age-old test was to disconnect from the game mid-bonus and see what happened - BTG, MG and WMS all do independent RNG calls and thus a game round would stop because the client cannot tell the server it is ready to continue.

I tested this at 3Dice in a video on my old Degsy channel, when I was delving into the Jammin' Jars controversy.

Technically speaking there's nothing wrong with generating the entire free spins round server side and then playing it back to the client, but certainly at 3Dice the server only 'knows' about the free spins it's generated so far, so if you yank your network cable halfway through, it'll replay the bit it knows about, and then start generating the remaining spins.

Direct timestamped link.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Chops, I’m not disagreeing with what you’ve said, but if you think the norm is sessioning BTG games for a few days and hitting (was it 2 or 3) 500x + bonuses/wins and one of over 1000x then you are wrong. That is incredibly fortunate , of that there is no denying.

To put this into context, it took me 1 year to hit a 500x bonus on bonanza and 2 years to hit a 1000x plus and believe me I played them a shit load more than ur few days!! If you take those incredibly Spawny features / base hits out on QOR then your money doesn’t last anywhere near as much if u replace them with the usual 30x shitters. U got very lucky.

But you are correct, play the games long enough and you’ll make RTP on most games. The only exception I can think of is maybe DOA 2 which if you don’t run well enough on will kill you.

It’s funny how the guy above is complaining about a load of features on rhino doing fuck all. That’s what the game normally does. But compare that to what I got. 500 x stake in deposits for 1 feature?? At least he had a chance!!!

I've had good and bad runs on BTG over the years, back when I reviewed one of their slots for my channel, think it was Wild Flower, it destroyed three balances simultaneously at three different casinos

I'm down at VS this year, I'm down at VS lifetime, in a decade of playing at 3Dice I basically made RTP and did around 1.3m game rounds so that cost me a bob or two! (Albeit 3Dice have a very generous bonus structure and gave me quite a few comps when Arctic Adventure was ripping me a new arsehole over an extended period of time.)

I've paid my dues with shitty luck, and I've had some serious spawn too (The Final Countdown remains my crowning glory ), but at the end of the day I'm just pressing the SPIN button along with everyone else and hoping for the best. No one can beat the maths of online slots, but we can try to make choices that give us the best chances of decent playtime and decent wins, within the parameters of what we're looking for.

 

[jasonuk]

Technically speaking there's nothing wrong with generating the entire free spins round server side and then playing it back to the client, but certainly at 3Dice the server only 'knows' about the free spins it's generated so far, so if you yank your network cable halfway through, it'll replay the bit it knows about, and then start generating the remaining spins.

Absolutely - and all of these are "old school" providers who were often working with much tighter limitations in bandwidths and resources. The "WMS lag" being a perfect example, you knew a big win was coming because the bigger message took longer to arrive

Historically it was more about spreading out demand (bandwidth, RNG calls etc) because of limitations of the network and systems.

Now-a-days it'll be more of a stylistic choice for slot providers - although naturally there will be scratchcard providers willing to "fake out" and send the spins individually as a way to "prove" the game rounds are actual spins (when of course they're not, because it's a pre-determined scratchcard).

 

[Jono777]

All the bonuses are pre determined on rhino aren’t they???

I'd say predetermined on EVERY game (well slots anyway)

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I'd say predetermined on EVERY game (well slots anyway)

But I literally proved that wasn't the case, at a real casino playing with real funds. Jason's listed multiple examples above where they don't work like that too.

 

[Jono777]

But I literally proved that wasn't the case, at a real casino playing with real funds. Jason's listed multiple examples above where they don't work like that too.

Sorry but I'm stubborn

All the outcomes are predetermined in some form or another whether it's spin by spin or the bonus as a total.

They can't ALL be RANDOMLY CRAP all of the time.

As for a "generous house edge" why then with exactly the same "generous house edge" has my play become awful last 12-24 month's, possibly longer.

Same casino, Same game, Same RTP, Same bet size, Same(ish) deposit size, Same(ish) deposit frequency, Same play style, same play time of the day yet DRASTICALLY different experience.

You can put laughing emojis, disagree in a nice way or even otherwise but without blowing my own trumpet too much, I know I am an educated and clever bloke* with years, no make that decades of gambling experience and know I am not getting anything remotely close to the entertainment value of years gone by. I know what I am seeing on my screen, etc, etc, etc

*Maybe not as clever as I think constantly chucking (yes small granted) my budget at this gimped pile of bollocks.

Also, before I go (for now, then again can only bang my head up the wall for so long before it starts to hurt a bit) in relation to long term stats, slogging it out and it eventually 'gives' - Sorry but nope, going back a few month's inclusively but last 21, yes TWENTY ONE deposits have failed to get over starting balance by more than 25% (a measly £2.50, £3.75, £5.00 depending on the deposit that day)

Let's all be totally honest (mentioned this several times) we can all put our view points forward with proof, evidence or otherwise but unless we one day get let into BTG's Netents, Pragmatics etc coding room whilst the boss is away, no one can truly prove anything and sadly never will.

 

[snorky510238]

What I don’t get if every spin is random, is how is it that all the bad shite comes at once? When you’re a seasoned player, it’s impossible not to notice how black and white sessions are.

You either get, deposit after deposit swallowed up, post haste or the occasional early bonus as a tease, that doesn’t pay enough to make a withdrawal, then it kill’s you, double quick time or about 1 in 30 deposits that go the desired way from the start.

BUT, when that deposit occurs, make sure you run when it reaches the “cap”. After that your balance will go in a downward spiral. Sometimes it may be slow, other times it’s like lightning but it’s extremely and I can’t emphasise extremely, enough, rare that your balance will ever exceed the initial pinnacle.

If people choose to take my posts with a pinch of salt, that’s fine (not the salt), but whereas at one time, I seemed to be pretty much ploughing a lone furrow, we now have some exceptionally seasoned and experienced players saying the same thing.

 

[paul7388]

Okay I will post something most will now disagree with.

But I still think gamblings luck nothing else. I know people say that they are experienced players etc. But on the other side of things I would like to think I am experienced as well having played slots just about every day online for the last 25 years and been gambling for over 35 years.

And to be honest for small deposits I get plenty of playtime and even lowrolling from small deposits my sessions last long enough. And I increase my balance plenty as well.

Posted the other week on Chopleys thread that I am in profit at some casinos.

Even yesterday to show an example at 2 different casinos I hit decent wins on 10p stakes while just messing about. Lol one was even at William Hill on some low RTP crap and I do not really play slots there anymore I was just messing about with little balance left from sports bets. And the other was at Paddy Power whilst playing the £50 for the free spins.

Anyway I will never argue with what people think as its how they see things. But not everyone has the experience that it's impossible to get play time any longer.

 

[dunover]

Well guess who played Rhino for the first time in over a year today?

Yep...this f*&% numpty called yours truly did....that's who.

And in news that will shock ABSOLUTELY BLOODY NOBODY, here is what happened.

100 quid in, 40p bets. I actually managed to make this deposit last an hour and a half.
Because I got TWELVE features. Which is rather good actually.

But it was anything but "rather good".
Because unfortunately, the "best" one of those twelve paid 30x. And it was 39 spins long. *

* Actually, after checking back, the 39 spin feature wasn't quite the best one.
And the best win was slightly more than 30x (31.5x - if you include the 2x triggering win)
Details below at the bottom of the post.

As for the others, here were the erm....."lowlights". Mainly because there weren't any highlights to report!

I had EIGHT features end with a BOG. Of which....

SIX CONSECUTIVE features paid less than 7x
FIVE CONSECUTIVE features paid less than 3.5x.
FOUR CONSECUTIVE features paid less than 1.5x and last but not least...
TWO CONSECUTIVE features that paid ZERO.

Across three features, I at one point had TWENTY-FOUR CONSECUTIVE FREE SPINS, ALL OF WHICH WERE DEAD SPINS. TWENTY FUCKING FOUR.

Are you fucking kidding me, Shite And Blunder?

In all seriousness, how the actual fuck can a slot "randomly" pull out the worst possible set of spins the very moment a feature is triggered. I mean, do they actually WANT you to think that a slot is RIGGED beyond belief?

Of course, that is only part of the story.

Biggest base game win....25x. Surprised I even got one that big tbh.
But of course, there was a bloody craptonne of "what might have beens" in the base game.
Four times I was one reel out from 8 ways of six cheetahs.
One reel short of six ways of crocodiles.
One reel short of 4 ways of 5 Rhinos SEVEN times.
One reel short of 12 ways, 8 ways and 6 ways of Rhinos once each.

In EVERY SINGLE ONE of those spins mentioned above, the one reel that let me down was on the left.
So I ended up with either a 2OAK or a dead spin.

In terms of buyers remorse, that session EASILY ranks among my top 5 of all time in nearly THIRTEEN YEARS of online slotting.

I cannot for the life of me remember a session as frustrating as that.
Where literally nothing goes right, but your agony and frustration is prolonged by the sheer volume of wasted opportunities, that only serve to add insult to injury.

I honestly wish I had busted out having seen only one or two shit features.
Because at least that would have been in line with my less than positive expectations, as well as being less frustrating and painful.
If you play a slot for an hour and a half, get twelve features (which is averaging one every seven or eight minutes) and you STILL can't manage even ONE win of a mere 35x stake during the ENTIRE session, then I think you are more than entitled to believe that a slot has been completely nerfed into the ground and is damn near unplayable. It ain't right.

It was that frustrating that I have now closed my account for three months at the casino where this took place (Gala).

I am absolutely fucking done with casinos that think it is OK to treat me like crap with "entertainment" like THAT. Oh...and to hell with the "the casino doesn't control the games" line. It happened at their site, and I can't complain to the provider. They were my hosts and I had a thoroughly miserable time. So fuck them
and their pathetic rewards wheels where the biggest thing you can win is 50 fucking pence.

EDIT: Oh I just realised, I recorded the features on that Microsoft game bar thingymebob, so I can actually give more accurate details. NB. The 2x triggering wins are not included.

Feature 1 - 13 spins, paid 65p (1.625x)
Feature 2 - 18 spins,, paid £11 (27.5x)
Feature 3 - 8 spins, paid £5.50 (13.75x)
Feature 4 - 13 spins, paid £1.30 (3.25x)
Feature 5 - 8 spins, paid £11.80 (29.5x)
Feature 6 - 39 spins, paid £10.80 (27x)
Feature 7 - 8 spins, paid £1.30 (3.25x)
Feature 8 - 8 spins, paid 40p (1x)
Feature 9 - 13 spins, paid 50p (1.25x) NB. 10p win on last spin
Feature 10 - 8 spins, paid ZERO
Feature 11 - 8 spins, paid ZERO
Feature 12 - 13 spins, paid £2.70 (6.75x). NB. First spin retrigger, but didn't get first win until spin 9, which ended the 24 dead free spins streak.

That's why I gave up the orange bastard 3 years ago. It was brutally buggering me with menaces. You didn't get close to my record of NINE consecutive bonus guarantees at WhiteBet back in 2015. Plus the stoooopid bloody thing crashes when you try and truncate the count up by clicking on the game when hitting 3+ reels with rhinos on, although that achievement seems to be a rarity nowadays.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

You weren’t playing it right back then Dazza.

It’s very simple, you just start off with a 100 x stake deposit.

You then get ahead on that deposit simply by playing normally. Then when ur ahead you raise the stake by a multiplication of 2.5.

That’s the clue basically.

Employ this strategy over 3 years and you should make about 60 bag.

Shame u weren’t in on it mate. Made a killing on that one.

 

[jasonuk]

Okay I will post something most will now disagree with.

But I still think gamblings luck nothing else. I know people say that they are experienced players etc. But on the other side of things I would like to think I am experienced as well having played slots just about every day online for the last 25 years and been gambling for over 35 years.

Couple of nice hits there

One interesting note you touch on is the "little and often" strategy a lot of sites operate now - where they want you to log-in daily, or qualify daily/weekly for a reward, but the top tiers of said promotions have long gone (e.g. Paddy used to do £200 for a tenner weekly, that became £100 for a fiver, now it's £50 for 25fs).

Plenty of sites out there offering 5-10% kickbacks (whether cash, free spins, or other promotions) on small amounts of wagering (£10, £20, £50 daily/weekly) which would negate most - if not all - of the house edge.

Doesn't help the high rollers or those that want an "old school" longer session, but when sites are taking the piss with RTPs, those kickbacks will help the tide somewhat. It probably helps with the CDD headaches as well given your deposits are spread across multiple sites - at least until the UKGC try to battle the ICO for another round of the single customer view (SCV) privacy invasion.

Until those disappear as well... and you're WH offering 88%.

 

[brianmon]

Well yes because each spin on extra chilli ‘s free spins is an entirely independent call to the server? So if it couldn’t close the bonus round out for whatever reason at the end of the feature then obviously a completely different one played out when reloading it. This bug had happened before hadn’t it on BTG games. But it didn’t mean you could just close it down and start the bonus again and get something completely different, it was obviously a fuck up there end somehow?

Thus proving despite what some people think on here that each spin IS a random call and not predetermined in the features.

Obviously I’m not in anyway shape or form a developer for games, so how does rhino work then, if when the game crashes (not by you closing the game down urself) I’m talking about a fuck up in the games free spins?

If unlike BTG it doesn’t make random calls for each spin and just replays the bonus out spin for spin? Does it remember the previous calls and then replay them and then carry on with random calls for each spin after??

It happened to me on BTG's Opal Fruits.
The game kept crashing on the final spin of the feature. Upon reloading the game it restarted the feature from the beginning. But would play completely different spins and give a different final win amount each time. But always crashing on the final spin

Proof That BTG Free Spins Are Random??? - Casinomeister Forum

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Yea I’ve seen it numerous times.

 

[jasonuk]

It happened to me on BTG's Opal Fruits.
The game kept crashing on the final spin of the feature. Upon reloading the game it restarted the feature from the beginning. But would play completely different spins and give a different final win amount each time. But always crashing on the final spin

That's interesting... so they knew about it in 2019, and it was still happening in 2021 - despite being a major compliance issue.

Also reminded me of this discussion from 2022 regarding game state, for those interested - Interaction between player, casino and game provider - Casinomeister Forum

 

[snorky510238]

I had the same happen on book of gods (I think that’s what it was called).

Only played on iPhone and the game wouldn’t let me play the bonus. I messaged the Casino and the rep (they had 1 on here at the time) and was told, (scoff, scoff), that they had contacted BTG and unfortunately (shock of the century), the bonus had paid nothing.

Didn’t believe it for a second but the rep on here confirmed it so I let it go. Must have been months later, I thought about trying it on my laptop. Sure enough it let me play the bonus to completion and it paid £17.40. The problem I hit then was, it wouldn’t let me exit the bonus round. Not overly bothered by the amount (although confirming what a lying bunch of people BTG are), I decided to play it again. Different total so I played it again and again. The strange thing is that out of the 30 odd I played, even though the spins were different, 6 of them paid £2.40 and 3 paid another amount (low) which I can’t remember.

It made me wonder, if the total is predetermined and it’s just the eye candy that varies. I absolutely think it is and always have. Nothing that has been posted, proves beyond doubt that each spin is random and individual. There are simple ways of getting around, what people are saying seems, random and individual.

 

[Kroffe]

I had the same happen on book of gods (I think that’s what it was called).

Only played on iPhone and the game wouldn’t let me play the bonus. I messaged the Casino and the rep (they had 1 on here at the time) and was told, (scoff, scoff), that they had contacted BTG and unfortunately (shock of the century), the bonus had paid nothing.

Didn’t believe it for a second but the rep on here confirmed it so I let it go. Must have been months later, I thought about trying it on my laptop. Sure enough it let me play the bonus to completion and it paid £17.40. The problem I hit then was, it wouldn’t let me exit the bonus round. Not overly bothered by the amount (although confirming what a lying bunch of people BTG are), I decided to play it again. Different total so I played it again and again. The strange thing is that out of the 30 odd I played, even though the spins were different, 6 of them paid £2.40 and 3 paid another amount (low) which I can’t remember.

It made me wonder, if the total is predetermined and it’s just the eye candy that varies. I absolutely think it is and always have. Nothing that has been posted, proves beyond doubt that each spin is random and individual. There are simple ways of getting around, what people are saying seems, random and individual.

You know what they say, gods work in mysterious ways.

 

[jasonuk]

The strange thing is that out of the 30 odd I played, even though the spins were different, 6 of them paid £2.40 and 3 paid another amount (low) which I can’t remember.

I remember Book of Gods was pretty good at lots of dead spins though - I would expect those wins are related to a common scenario (such as 3 expanding symbols). You've clearly contradicted your next statement because the total wasn't predetermined - it changed with each re-run of the bonus.

Nothing that has been posted, proves beyond doubt that each spin is random and individual. There are simple ways of getting around, what people are saying seems, random and individual.

If the circle of trust is that broken, then the best thing is not to play... the whole point of all the reviews, testing and auditing is to make sure such situations don't occur, or on the rare occasion they do they can be resolved quickly.

There's a lot of slimy behaviour linked to BTG, but at least they are using genuine math models which is more than can be said for the scratchcard brigade.

 

[SlotsGuy]

Not a single feature.

Played Rick and Morty, The Goonies, Immoral Romance, Thunderstruck 2, Raging Rex 1,2 and 3, raging rhino. primal megaways and several other slots all on MrQ all with a 96% or higher RTP.

It sucks, and I struggle to believe the RTPs are legit TBH

I notice the game-play is far better on smaller stakes, 10p, 30p, 40p and 50p maybe it's just me, but I've cut down on the bigger stakes like £3 + but £2 seems to play well also.

 

[snorky510238]

You've clearly contradicted your next statement because the total wasn't predetermined - it changed with each re-run of the bonus.

But in the games program, I was effectively starting a new bonus each time.

Do you believe electronic roulette is random?

 

[jasonuk]

But in the games program, I was effectively starting a new bonus each time.

That comes down to the game design though:

• single-phase scratchcard "slot" - everything is predetermined from one RNG call
• multi-phase scratchcard "slot" - each phase is one RNG call
• traditional slot - each device (e.g. reel) is one RNG call

It would depend what has already been recorded - a multi-phase scratchcard could give you a different predetermined bonus (that may pay a different amount), or it could have already decided the amount and then selects a different ball for how it generates that amount.

In the case of BTG, they tend to be complicated traditional slots - so the dozens of RNG calls used in the bonus would have to be generated again if the original data has been lost. The common payouts will be where there is a single low-value win followed by a bunch of dead spins.

Do you believe electronic roulette is random?

Not sure there's a need for a whataboutism here... especially one where the first question is going to be "what do you consider random"...

 

[snorky510238]

That comes down to the game design though:

• single-phase scratchcard "slot" - everything is predetermined from one RNG call
• multi-phase scratchcard "slot" - each phase is one RNG call
• traditional slot - each device (e.g. reel) is one RNG call

It would depend what has already been recorded - a multi-phase scratchcard could give you a different predetermined bonus (that may pay a different amount), or it could have already decided the amount and then selects a different ball for how it generates that amount.

In the case of BTG, they tend to be complicated traditional slots - so the dozens of RNG calls used in the bonus would have to be generated again if the original data has been lost. The common payouts will be where there is a single low-value win followed by a bunch of dead spins.


Not sure there's a need for a whataboutism here... especially one where the first question is going to be "what do you consider random"...

True random for roulette would be 1 number called for, from 37 and each number having the same chance of being selected.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Well I and an army of other ‘players’ made money off certain fobt roulette games for about 8 yrs due to the fact they were random and that the maths became in your favour whilst said games had certain pot levels.

Of course you had the up and down swings on individual terminals but overall a lot of money was made because mathematically the odds became more favourable to the player the larger the pots grew or were sat on.

Like playing slots long term on line will result in a loss over time, these particular games worked in the opposite manner.

No doubt they were random and doing what they said on the tin.

 

[jasonuk]

Well I and an army of other ‘players’ made money off certain fobt roulette games for about 8 yrs due to the fact they were random and that the maths became in your favour whilst said games had certain pot levels.

Of course you had the up and down swings on individual terminals but overall a lot of money was made because mathematically the odds became more favourable to the player the larger the pots grew or were sat on.

Like playing slots long term on line will result in a loss over time, these particular games worked in the opposite manner.

No doubt they were random and doing what they said on the tin.

That's where the terminology starts to break down... because the behaviour of the machine is random (in that each spin is a unique RNG call and is not influenced by past results), but there is inherent compensation from the progressive jackpots or "pots".

So if people can think outside the box and realise where that model breaks down, as you say there's money to be made. Not as easy now-a-days of course, but those opportunities still arise from time to time.

If you read the UKGC guidelines for FOBTs they explicitly exclude pots from the "random" definition - such that you can in theory design a "random" FOBT that is 90%+ compensated behaviour. I don't think we've seen it in the wild (maybe 25% RTP) but it's theoretically possible...

I remember hearing stories about must-drop jackpots (WMS used to love them in the G+ Deluxe days) and people camping them like crazy - it still happens to a lesser extent with people scouting out the bigger Major jackpots... even Joe Public can understand that a $1150 major is better than a $550 one (for the same game).