Worst Ever TSII Experience

[ChopleyIOM]

I have done over 5 mio. spins on IR, TS2, TFROL, BG and BTBA. I have saved every detail of every spin in a MySql database (over 20 GB of data).

I believe that MG slots are fair, and their RTP claim is 100% correct. I do not believe MG adjusts RTP for individual players.

At the same time, I am convinced that each individual spin is NOT random. I suspect MG uses pregenerated series of random spins to control RTP and to make the slots more exiting to play.

243 lines=daft makes a good point: I have not seen MG claim that each spin is random and independant of previous spins - I'd be very interested if anyone could provide a link to this effect.

I have not had losing sessions that could not be explained by random bad luck, but I HAVE had winning sessions that were almost 6 standard deviations from the expected result (meaning very unlikely - contrary to what some posters in this thread seems to believe, standard deviations and NOT sample size is important when determining randomness - 3 or 4 spins can be enough to determine this).

We cant really look at TRTP, since we dont know how Wild Desire/Shitstorm is triggered - I suspect that Wild Desire/Shitstorm replaces a normal bonus round, but who knows.

In my book, non-random is NOT the same as unfair.

How do you calculate 6 standard deviations from expected results when the odds of any single event are not known?

Standard deviations are (relatively) easy to work out when it comes to 'known odds' games such as roulette, or cards, or dice - how do you work out standard deviations when you have no known odds/probabilities to work from?

 

[kktmd]

I use my 5 mio spins as baseline. Also, knowing the wheel layout, we can calculate the odds of each event (except Wild Desire/Shitstorm, since we dont know what triggers this).

 

[Nifty29]

Oh no Dunover......you can't get away with the "I didn't say Wintingo/MGS are rigged/cheating" or "Wintingo has lowered the RTP" etc etc just because your OP was 5 pages back.

You know EXACTLY what you were implying and here is the proof:

[

B]something doesn't feel right about this place.[/B] I would be interested to hear how others have fared. I'm going to close a/c (when they can talk to me) because I simply don't trust the place. Remember, if I thought this was just a 'bad run' I wouldn't be mentioning it. Something wasn't right. BE CAREFUL if you are regular MG players.

I'd love to know else anyone would read this....if I were a newb etc I would think right awsy that Wintingo was dodgy and rigging their slots.

If you're now NOT saying that, you should apologize to Wintingo for calling their integrity into question.

I apologize to daft as promised BTW...although he is avoiding important questions.

I'm bowing out here now. The tinfoil hatters guard their headwear to the last man, so nothing more I can say will make a difference. I've put enough facts and information out there to help intelligent readers come to the right conclusion based on facts and logic.

I've provided mathematical facts, informed sources with superior inside knowledge, and sound logic.....and add to that kktmds analysis proving 100% fairness.

The other "camp" have provided nothing except 1200 spins. "Prove me wrong" isn't evidence. Remember, the burden of proof is on the accuser. ..calling on opponents to provide evidence, which they have, and refusing to do the same is very poor debating and, at worst, childish.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

Ok, I've just sat and read through the entire thread which took me quite a while!

Anyway I can only agree with those that say there was nothing suspicious about dunover's initial session. Highly unusual (and I don't think I've ever seen something quite as bad on TSII, as shit as it is), but nothing can be called into question. Truth is, after 200 spins on any slot, even my all-time favourite IR, I would walk away if it were that bad and play something else. I'd actually walk away after less than 100 spins so bad.

I do totally understand the OP's frustration though, but I also have to question someone's motives to continue playing when it was clearly a lost cause from very early on.
I know when a slot is playing bad and I get out of there sharpish

 

[243 lines=daft]

I apologize to daft as promised BTW...although he is avoiding important questions.

Thank you for that apology.

If you can clarify the important questions that you think I am avoiding then please do so, preferably avoiding needlessly divisive terminology such as 'fixed' or 'rigged'

 

[dunover]

Ok, I've just sat and read through the entire thread which took me quite a while!

Anyway I can only agree with those that say there was nothing suspicious about dunover's initial session. Highly unusual (and I don't think I've ever seen something quite as bad on TSII, as shit as it is), but nothing can be called into question. Truth is, after 200 spins on any slot, even my all-time favourite IR, I would walk away if it were that bad and play something else. I'd actually walk away after less than 100 spins so bad.

I do totally understand the OP's frustration though, but I also have to question someone's motives to continue playing when it was clearly a lost cause from very early on.
I know when a slot is playing bad and I get out of there sharpish

Same as when you are winning - you play on to see how long it will last. And because usually the bad run on TSII is followed by better.

 

[dunover]

I have done over 5 mio. spins on IR, TS2, TFROL, BG and BTBA. I have saved every detail of every spin in a MySql database (over 20 GB of data).

I believe that MG slots are fair, and their RTP claim is 100% correct. I do not believe MG adjusts RTP for individual players.

At the same time, I am convinced that each individual spin is NOT random. I suspect MG uses pregenerated series of random spins to control RTP and to make the slots more exiting to play.

243 lines=daft makes a good point: I have not seen MG claim that each spin is random and independant of previous spins - I'd be very interested if anyone could provide a link to this effect.

I have not had losing sessions that could not be explained by random bad luck, but I HAVE had winning sessions that were almost 6 standard deviations from the expected result (meaning very unlikely - contrary to what some posters in this thread seems to believe, standard deviations and NOT sample size is important when determining randomness - 3 or 4 spins can be enough to determine this).

We cant really look at TRTP, since we dont know how Wild Desire/Shitstorm is triggered - I suspect that Wild Desire/Shitstorm replaces a normal bonus round, but who knows.

In my book, non-random is NOT the same as unfair.

I have long suspected series of spins too, pregenerated. There are just too many instances whereby the 'runs' you mention are consistent in their behaviour. I have noticed on every occasion bar once, in 5 years of TSII, if you get 2 losing heartstoppers for the bonus (i.e. only get the two scatters) and it gives you a third consecutive heartstopper, it will come in on the third. Surely other must have noticed it. You also get a decent bonus round, either followed next spin by a decent sh!tstorm or 5-line win. there are several others I can think of.
Your WD/shitstorm is triggered exactly like any other spin - the video is just different. You have selected with the RNG either a win that can be represented on the reels in a normal spin OR via the sh!tstorm feature. Image 2 reels wild and getting 9x10's. You can hit this value with a normal spin or with 5x10's with 2 wilds for same amount. Some amounts are too high for the standard spins and thus can only be represented on the WD/sh!tstorm video feature.
Agreed, non random is not necessarily unfair.
The deviation is what matters here, as you say. You can see a massive deviation in relatively few spins. This is what triggered my beef. You have done 5 mio spins. This is worth more than what the black-and-white theorists spout, as it's real, it's been done and is quantifiable.
I only wish you could tell me that you had any period of 1k+ spins on TSII in your sample with no bonus rounds, just one 5 characters and one bad sh!tstorm of 5x stake and no more than 6 5oaks of letters, mostly with no wilds. Also, an absence of 4oak characters too.
I doubt it.
I still maintain that what I experienced was so unusual I can't trust the game there, whether down to the casino (although unlikely as they only feed the game to me) or MG or any other reason. I have played it since in other places, and the gameplay is the same as I have experienced on every occasion except the one in my OP.

 

[243 lines=daft]

I have noticed on every occasion bar once, in 5 years of TSII, if you get 2 losing heartstoppers for the bonus (i.e. only get the two scatters) and it gives you a third consecutive heartstopper, it will come in on the third. Surely other must have noticed it.

The original 9 line Thunderstruck also spits out suddenly recurring sequences of two scatter spins that VERY regularly are followed almost immediately by a three scatter plus free spins round (and very often after a relative drought). While this could be predetermined series of spins, it also ties in with the theory of support and resistance bounce points.

i.e. It could be that as the negative trend 'turns' off the lower (support) bounce point the slot reflects the changing direction of the trend by gradually ramping up the returns (through x2 stake (2 scatters) into x5 stake and the bonus round). Like the waking dawn before the morning sunshine, as it were.

Added to this my experience (of playing TS1 and its clones since 2008) is that the hottest streaks occur after a tangible 'turn' (as indeed do the coldest streaks) suggesting that the greatest new momentum is generated straight off the bounce.

A corresponding effect occurs in Cyberstud poker (the high variance casino game , not actual HoldEm/Poker) when a near straight or near flush occur several times in very close order (that nonetheless become winning or non-losing hands), that can be a leading indicator of a subsequent opening flush or straight. And if this is confirmed by a follow up decent hand within 5 hands (straight +) then my experience is that the new trend is often effectively confirmed.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

Same as when you are winning - you play on to see how long it will last. And because usually the bad run on TSII is followed by better.

I just know there's no way in Hell I could stay on TSII that long if it was playing so badly. Earlier today I played 100 spins on TFROL, £0.90 bet, my return was about 30% and I was nearly in tears
I dunno how anyone makes it to 1200 without smashing their monitor in rage.

 

[dunover]

I just know there's no way in Hell I could stay on TSII that long if it was playing so badly. Earlier today I played 100 spins on TFROL, £0.90 bet, my return was about 30% and I was nearly in tears
I dunno how anyone makes it to 1200 without smashing their monitor in rage.

LOL.....I came bloody close, believe me!

 

[dunover]

The original 9 line Thunderstruck also spits out suddenly recurring sequences of two scatter spins that VERY regularly are followed almost immediately by a three scatter plus free spins round (and very often after a relative drought). While this could be predetermined series of spins, it also ties in with the theory of support and resistance bounce points.

i.e. It could be that as the negative trend 'turns' off the lower (support) bounce point the slot reflects the changing direction of the trend by gradually ramping up the returns (through x2 stake (2 scatters) into x5 stake and the bonus round). Like the waking dawn before the morning sunshine, as it were.

Added to this my experience (of playing TS1 and its clones since 2008) is that the hottest streaks occur after a tangible 'turn' (as indeed do the coldest streaks) suggesting that the greatest new momentum is generated straight off the bounce.

A corresponding effect occurs in Cyberstud poker (the high variance casino game , not actual HoldEm/Poker) when a near straight or near flush occur several times in very close order (that nonetheless become winning or non-losing hands), that can be a leading indicator of a subsequent opening flush or straight. And if this is confirmed by a follow up decent hand within 5 hands (straight +) then my experience is that the new trend is often effectively confirmed.

Yes, and look at my screenshot of Hitman, 1006xstake recently. I (before this thread) added a comment to the screenshot when I posted it, that it was 'showing' before the win. By that I mean for the preceding 10 spins I had one or 2 wilds on most of them, with near-wins or small wins. I commented because I found it odd. Another poster (I cannot remember who but he is a 'big boy' here) reported on his cashapillar screenie he posted from a big win bonus round that preceding it it was dropping in bonus rounds almost every few spins that yielded small wins, so much so he thought something was wrong.
I think that there is just too much anecdotal evidence and consistent comments to ever believe MG slots play to a simple rolling RNG pool whereby a number is picked, put back and so-on. There is clearly more to it. And that DOESN'T mean I am saying they cheat or are unfair.

 

[dunover]

I heard back today and the rep. has told me that Microgaming acknowledged the play was unusually poor but no fault found. I cannot tell you the communications between Rep/IOM/MG as the rep says these are confidential and I can't see them. I did ask for my figures and he simply said look in my game history (as per all MG casinos.) I know this! That wasn't what I wanted, just my RTP for my time on the slot (which is thus my time at Wintingo as that slot was all I played).
I haven't had a reply to that, maybe the rep has finished for today and will reply tomorrow. All I ask is for that. Like Chopley in his example, I'm curious to how really bad it was.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I heard back today and the rep. has told me that Microgaming acknowledged the play was unusually poor but no fault found. I cannot tell you the communications between Rep/IOM/MG as the rep says these are confidential and I can't see them. I did ask for my figures and he simply said look in my game history (as per all MG casinos.) I know this! That wasn't what I wanted, just my RTP for my time on the slot (which is thus my time at Wintingo as that slot was all I played).
I haven't had a reply to that, maybe the rep has finished for today and will reply tomorrow. All I ask is for that. Like Chopley in his example, I'm curious to how really bad it was.

Just ask them for your play logs for the session, any even half-reputable casino should be able to provide them.

From there you can work out your own RTP pretty easily (I can just plug them into my Excel spreadsheet, and that'll do all the legwork).

 

[dunover]

Well, the rep hasn't replied yet with my RTP, but it has been calculated now.

49.87%

For a whole 5 deposits, 788 spins, £250-odd wagered at 60p a spin.

I have never done this before, on any slot, even BDBA and DoA.

Never even come close before on TSII.

Maybe not Wintingo's fault, but leaves a bitter taste.

 

[Nifty29]

Well, the rep hasn't replied yet with my RTP, but it has been calculated now.

49.87%

For a whole 5 deposits, 788 spins, £250-odd wagered at 60p a spin.

I have never done this before, on any slot, even BDBA and DoA.

Never even come close before on TSII.

Maybe not Wintingo's fault, but leaves a bitter taste.

So its gone from 1200+ spins to 788 spins......from totally meaningless to even more totally meaningless.

Honestly, this has just got out of hand and become laughable.....nothing personal Dunover, but it really is beyond ridiculous.

If everyone posted every time they got an RTP of ~50% from less than 800 spins Bryan would have to buy more bandwidth. Just ask the BDBA players what kind of losing streaks they have....some are probably worse.

Your results are POOR. Your results are NORMAL for a HIGH variance slot. Your results suggest NOTHING other than what I just stated.

It was bad enough calling "dodgy" or "suspicious" or "rigged" ( and you DID imply these things....check out where I quoted you earlier) based on 1200+ spins, but now that we find you exaggerated, perhaps deliberately for effect, and that the real number is 788 spins, it puts what was already a borderline losers rant squarely into the certified sore loser rant category. I mean, how do you "over estimate" by 4-500 spins? Moreover, why would even ESTIMATE any data when you are calling the integrity of Wintingo and MGS into question? Its very poor form, and you owe them an apology IMO.

In case anyone is reading the latest replies first, don't bother reading the earlier ones. Its a waste of time and effort and I'm upset with myself that I even helped give it airtime, especially since it has now become an even bigger waste given that data was inflated or fudged to begin with to lend it more credibility (I can't think of any other reason).

Its a good example of how ridiculous and pointless it is to base assumptions and accusations on miniscule sessions playing high variance slots.

I'm afraid you've just joined my tinfoil hat list Dunover. No big deal either way I guess, but I'll be viewing anything you provide or theories you have with far less respect than i did previously.

 

[just play]

Well, the rep hasn't replied yet with my RTP, but it has been calculated now.

49.87%

For a whole 5 deposits, 788 spins, £250-odd wagered at 60p a spin.

I have never done this before, on any slot, even BDBA and DoA.

Never even come close before on TSII.

Maybe not Wintingo's fault, but leaves a bitter taste.

Let me get this straight...you made 5 seperate deposits, and wagered 250 at 60p a spin?

I assumed it was one deposit, and you spun 1200 spins at 60p?


5 different deposits wagering 250 and getting a 49.87% is no big deal in my eyes...(but I cannot play these games, so I have no idea if it is indeed a big deal) have you ever played RTG? lol...that's probably my percentage EVERY time I play!!!

If I understand this correctly I would have to agree with parts of Niftys post (and I NEVER agree with him, hehe)


Dunover I understand feeling like something is wrong with slots (I am a half tinfoil hat wearer ) but couldn't this just be shitty luck?

 

[Nifty29]

Let me get this straight...you made 5 seperate deposits, and wagered 250 at 60p a spin?

I assumed it was one deposit, and you spun 1200 spins at 60p?


5 different deposits wagering 250 and getting a 49.87% is no big deal in my eyes...(but I cannot play these games, so I have no idea if it is indeed a big deal) have you ever played RTG? lol...that's probably my percentage EVERY time I play!!!

If I understand this correctly I would have to agree with parts of Niftys post (and I NEVER agree with him, hehe)


Dunover I understand feeling like something is wrong with slots (I am a half tinfoil hat wearer ) but couldn't this just be shitty luck?

LOL thanks jp. See...we CAN get along

Well it was only 788 spins over 5 deposits, which supports what you say even more.

 

[just play]

I have to add something...this is from your very first post (I'm not gonna read the entire thread again)

I deposited 30, 25, 45, 50 and 50. Well over a thousand spins at 60p.

Your depositing so little...60p a spin will go quick at any casino.


I see nothing wrong with your play.


Unless I'm missing something???

 

[just play]

LOL thanks jp. See...we CAN get along

Well it was only 788 spins over 5 deposits, which supports what you say even more.

It's about time Nifty, only took 7 years



It just makes no sense at all!!!

Dunover I'm not picking on you...but I assumed something different.

 

[mrmark21]

So let me get this straight Dunover the stats you claimed have now gone from "Well over a thousand spins" to "788 spins"??

I've done 400 spins on TS2 without a feature and never blinked an eyelid. I've done the same thing on IR. Maybe you were about to get an amazing bonus round considering the small amount of spins you really did you just don't know.

 

[Balthazar]

Look at this Donover: (This is me chatting with the 32red CSR. I posted it before in another thread).

Ruth: Hi, how can I help?
Me: Hi, could you please tell me my rtp for my last 3 sessions please? Thank you.
Me: I'd like to know my rtp for each individual session if possible
Ruth: ok, bear with me
Ruth: for the 22nd - 41%
Ruth: for the 18th - 60%
Ruth: for the 15th - 62%
Me: Thanks. That's absolutely horrible.
Me: for low betting
Ruth: and over all for those 3 days 60%
Ruth: It is lower than avarage yes,
Me: much lower hopefully
Ruth: Well for the games you are playing you would expect to get an average over time of around 95%, so you havn't been especially lucky so far
Ruth: And you are right in that your bets are not huge,
Me: minimum bets
Me: I get no play time at all
Ruth: let me see if i can do anything to compensate a little for you,
Ruth: unfortunately i cant promise the play will be any better but a little something cant do any harm
Me: thanks
Ruth: No problem
Ruth: Ill put 32 chips in your account for you, i hope they are a little more lucky for you
Me: thank you Ruth

Free chips didn't help (but were appreciated). On the 15th my starting balance was $260 and $75 each on the 2 other sessions. During my last session, I spent $75 betting $0.30 with a 41% RTP. Lasted 15 minutes.

As you can see, I've had worse sessions than you!

 

[dunover]

Look at this Donover: (This is me chatting with the 32red CSR. I posted it before in another thread).




As you can see, I've had worse sessions than you!

Your average there was 55% in the 3 sessions you enquired about. Better than mine, but the last one at 41% really sucked! I had 5 sessions in total.
What slot were you playing? At risk of criticism here, when I was at 32red I had a long period that had me reaching for the stats/RTP like you, the only other time I asked for them before Wintingo.

Anyway for the rest of you:
I DID state over 1k spins yes. I apologize for that. This was because when I first accessed the TSII stats after 400-odd spins I had a play rate of 554 per hour. After playing for 2 and a quarter hours I simply approximated the amount. The reason it fell short was the connection issues; reels spinning and not stopping and reloading game. This lost me spins as well as reset the game stats.

Regardless of that, the sessions were still appalling, and I still maintain I have never had gameplay that bad at a new casino in my life. Nowhere near. I do not apologize for querying this or making it known. If you've ever played a slot regularly in an arcade or pub in the UK, and the thing's been rechipped without you knowing, you know from your sheer familiarity with how it plays that it becomes apparent after a few minutes something's up. This is the feeling I had when playing it.

Even 788 spins without any one of the features/wins I described is unheard of in my gaming life on TSII. I have never seen it before, nor since. The game plays what I would call 'normally' elsewhere. Ups and downs, dead patches, runs of wins etc.

So, I gladly accept my foil hat, I'll wear it with pride because I still question the way MG software works. I ain't saying it isn't fair or doesn't meet TRTP eventually but it certainly has its foibles so to speak. I think it goes beyond simply picking numbers from a pool and replacing them.

The fact remains that I joined to try their new bonus cashpay system. I never got enough gameplay to really form an opinion. Maybe the rep will contact me with his figures next week. All i know is that I had my worst ever MG experience there.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Just for the record I should state that dunover sent his playlogs over to me and I ran them through my spreadsheet, at which point it became clear there were fewer spins than expected, but that the RTP was indeed pretty horrible - I fed the numbers back to him but did say I felt it was just too small a sample size to make any conclusions.

Out of interest I tried to find a block of spins in my Bruce Lee shitathon that was quite so bad (any block of 700 spins with an RTP of under 50%), and I didn't find one, not even close in fact. Not that this proves anything of course, but bearing in mind that session 'felt' incredibly bad (I can still remember it ), it does give some idea as to how bad dunover's TS2 session was.

Thing is though, as has already been noted, this stuff can work both ways.

Last night I was playing at Jackpot Party on the Bruce Lee clone Fortunes of the Caribbean (i.e. high variance, and free spins frequency is probably about 1 in 200 spins on average), and I triggered three free spins rounds on three subsequent spins (and they all paid a reasonable amount too) - something I've never had before, on any slot, on any software, in about five years of playing online. (Either in real money mode or free money mode, this was in real money mode.)

I was like, 'Bloody hell, I wonder what the chances of that are?'

 

[Balthazar]

What slot were you playing?

I played a bunch of different slots. The 41% was exclusively on IR.

I was like, 'Bloody hell, I wonder what the chances of that are?'

Weird stuff do happen. Just last week on my very first spin on TFROL I got the free spins, on the second spin I got the wild celebration and on the 4th spin I got the free spins again. That's 3 bonuses on my first 4 spins, it had me wondering if something was wrong with the slot (Turned out that everything was OK because it chewed on my balance "normally" after that and I couldn't retrigger any bonus to save my life).

 

[dunover]

Just for the record I should state that dunover sent his playlogs over to me and I ran them through my spreadsheet, at which point it became clear there were fewer spins than expected, but that the RTP was indeed pretty horrible - I fed the numbers back to him but did say I felt it was just too small a sample size to make any conclusions.

Out of interest I tried to find a block of spins in my Bruce Lee shitathon that was quite so bad (any block of 700 spins with an RTP of under 50%), and I didn't find one, not even close in fact. Not that this proves anything of course, but bearing in mind that session 'felt' incredibly bad (I can still remember it ), it does give some idea as to how bad dunover's TS2 session was.
Thing is though, as has already been noted, this stuff can work both ways.

Last night I was playing at Jackpot Party on the Bruce Lee clone Fortunes of the Caribbean (i.e. high variance, and free spins frequency is probably about 1 in 200 spins on average), and I triggered three free spins rounds on three subsequent spins (and they all paid a reasonable amount too) - something I've never had before, on any slot, on any software, in about five years of playing online. (Either in real money mode or free money mode, this was in real money mode.)

I was like, 'Bloody hell, I wonder what the chances of that are?'

At least somebody knows how I felt! This is where my challenge to others regarding TSII came from - I simply defy you to show me 800 spins as bad on a TSII. Now we know Bruce Lee is a bugger of a VHV slot and yet the play is 'balanced' enough to prevent 700 spins as bad as I had. This was the point I made earlier - I cannot show you anything as bad even on BDBA/DoA/SWR which are probably equal in variance to Brucie and far higher V than TSII.
Funny you should mention the 3 spins you had. I had 2 consecutive bonus rounds once on TSII followed by a sh!tstorm on the 3rd. spin on one of my VPL accounts, and the b'stard died for 20 minutes afterwards.

 

[Nifty29]

Your average there was 55% in the 3 sessions you enquired about. Better than mine, but the last one at 41% really sucked! I had 5 sessions in total.
What slot were you playing? At risk of criticism here, when I was at 32red I had a long period that had me reaching for the stats/RTP like you, the only other time I asked for them before Wintingo.

Anyway for the rest of you:
I DID state over 1k spins yes. I apologize for that. This was because when I first accessed the TSII stats after 400-odd spins I had a play rate of 554 per hour. After playing for 2 and a quarter hours I simply approximated the amount. The reason it fell short was the connection issues; reels spinning and not stopping and reloading game. This lost me spins as well as reset the game stats.

Regardless of that, the sessions were still appalling, and I still maintain I have never had gameplay that bad at a new casino in my life. Nowhere near. I do not apologize for querying this or making it known. If you've ever played a slot regularly in an arcade or pub in the UK, and the thing's been rechipped without you knowing, you know from your sheer familiarity with how it plays that it becomes apparent after a few minutes something's up. This is the feeling I had when playing it.

Even 788 spins without any one of the features/wins I described is unheard of in my gaming life on TSII. I have never seen it before, nor since. The game plays what I would call 'normally' elsewhere. Ups and downs, dead patches, runs of wins etc.

So, I gladly accept my foil hat, I'll wear it with pride because I still question the way MG software works. I ain't saying it isn't fair or doesn't meet TRTP eventually but it certainly has its foibles so to speak. I think it goes beyond simply picking numbers from a pool and replacing them.

The fact remains that I joined to try their new bonus cashpay system. I never got enough gameplay to really form an opinion. Maybe the rep will contact me with his figures next week. All i know is that I had my worst ever MG experience there.

Honestly. It makes NO difference if its a new casino or one you've played for years. If you think it DOES, then you're saying MGS slots ARE RIGGED. No other explanations are possible.

Anyhow, you can continue to believe that the Earth is flat. Just don't expect reasonable people to take you seriously any more. I still think you owe the Wintingo rep an apology, and I think a decent man would offer one.

Tinfoil hat duly allocated.

 

[mrmark21]

I understand what you're saying Dunover and my opinion about MG isn't going to change any time soon I just think that before starting this thread and giving the wrong stats for you're gaming session that you could have confirmed that with Customer Support.

 

[michielm1]

this chat you had, was exactly my experience. min bets no time. happened on every single 1 of my deposits. even with bonus. in not a single other MGs casino i have this. only at 32 red. thats why i had my acc permanently locked yesterday. i dont trust 32red. wont even bother to play there for free.

 

[Nifty29]

this chat you had, was exactly my experience. min bets no time. happened on every single 1 of my deposits. even with bonus. in not a single other MGs casino i have this. only at 32 red. thats why i had my acc permanently locked yesterday. i dont trust 32red. wont even bother to play there for free.

You don't trust 32Red because.....

1. You lost

2. - 10. ????

 

[mrmark21]

this chat you had, was exactly my experience. min bets no time. happened on every single 1 of my deposits. even with bonus. in not a single other MGs casino i have this. only at 32 red. thats why i had my acc permanently locked yesterday. i dont trust 32red. wont even bother to play there for free.

I've had the opposite experience at 32 Red that casino has been the best to me. Different people, different experiences: Comes from random numbers being random

 

[kktmd]

Out of 1.073.543 spins i did on TS2 (freespin), I saw RTP lower than 49,9% after 788 spins 330 times. If the freespins plays like the regular games, I guess you will see a session this bad or worse about 1 in 3.000 sessions.

If you play 788 spins every day, you should experience a session like this once every 10 years.

I would say that dunover's session was highly unusual (but still well within the possible for a random slot). I too would have moved to a different casino, had I experienced this RTP.

The very lowest trailing 788-spin RTP I saw in 1.073.543 spins: 46,9%

Disclaimer: depending on how you interpret the data, you can get different results!

 

[sscrabble]

just to continue the theme , what have been your 'best' returns over 788 spins in the million spins - I have only played about 30000 spins , but never had over 100% return in any sequence of 788 spins ! If I get a couple of decent wins it is always followed by a couple of hundred spins at less than 50%.

 

[kktmd]

... but never had over 100% return in any sequence of 788 spins !

Really? wow, thats bad

Anytime you get a win larger than 788xbet, your trailing RTP is going to be above 100% for the next 788 spins (even if you win nothing in the next 788 spins).

The best trailing 788-spin RTP: 252%

Trailing 788-spin RTP was over 100% 429.509 times....about 40% of the times.

 

[dunover]

Honestly. It makes NO difference if its a new casino or one you've played for years. If you think it DOES, then you're saying MGS slots ARE RIGGED. No other explanations are possible.

Anyhow, you can continue to believe that the Earth is flat. Just don't expect reasonable people to take you seriously any more. I still think you owe the Wintingo rep an apology, and I think a decent man would offer one.

Tinfoil hat duly allocated.

I think you need to read kktmd's stats on TSII.
I could play 788 spins per day and expect that gameplay once in every 9 1/2 years.
I have thus had an exceptionally bad slot experience at Wintingo. Wasted £200 on a session I couldn't possibly have won on. I'm almost tempted to play it again to extend the data, so kktmd can crunch it to see if that 1/3000 gets higher.
I had a 1/3000 chance of that session. I have been online slotting for half that 9 1/2 year period, which gives me very little chance of having experienced something equally as bad before. As I said, I haven't.
I speak to rep by PM, but if there's any suggestion in posts that he/Wintingo have been the cause of this of course an unreserved apology is offered.
Please remember though Wintingo never got back to me as regards that RTP so I had help as you saw.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

this chat you had, was exactly my experience. min bets no time. happened on every single 1 of my deposits. even with bonus. in not a single other MGs casino i have this. only at 32 red. thats why i had my acc permanently locked yesterday. i dont trust 32red. wont even bother to play there for free.

I locked my 32Red account years ago because my luck was so bad there. But reopened a couple of weeks ago, then closed it again last week because my luck (overall) continues to stink there.
I have much better returns at BetSafe, Red Flush etc, so I play there instead. 32Red are listed in my "worst casinos" section of my profile, but that is based solely on my luck with them and nothing to do with them as a company.
I still believe they are the best in the business and I actually feel quite sad that I can't have an account there (without it costing me a fortune), although to say you don't trust them simply because you don't win there is folly.

Nobody says you have to like them (I don't), but as far as trust goes they are top of the tree.

 

[dunover]

I locked my 32Red account years ago because my luck was so bad there. But reopened a couple of weeks ago, then closed it again last week because my luck (overall) continues to stink there.
I have much better returns at BetSafe, Red Flush etc, so I play there instead. 32Red are listed in my "worst casinos" section of my profile, but that is based solely on my luck with them and nothing to do with them as a company.
I still believe they are the best in the business and I actually feel quite sad that I can't have an account there (without it costing me a fortune), although to say you don't trust them simply because you don't win there is folly.

Nobody says you have to like them (I don't), but as far as trust goes they are top of the tree.

You have basically summed up exactly how I view 32red too. I quit too because after 2 accounts over the years there, I could never seem to win either. I trust them implicitly.

 

[michielm1]

just played again @ crazyvegas... put 25, no bonus, played 4 hours max balance was 210, withdrew 150
last week i got 20 free, only deposited a few times at another casino in that group. i cleared a 200 euro payout.

actually i have never had this little playtime as at 32red ever. if i burn my money literally, i have more time watching the fire than playing @ 32red

 

[RikkiGT-R]

I like it 'cause it's funny

 

[Nifty29]

I think you need to read kktmd's stats on TSII.
I could play 788 spins per day and expect that gameplay once in every 9 1/2 years.
I have thus had an exceptionally bad slot experience at Wintingo. Wasted £200 on a session I couldn't possibly have won on. I'm almost tempted to play it again to extend the data, so kktmd can crunch it to see if that 1/3000 gets higher.
I had a 1/3000 chance of that session. I have been online slotting for half that 9 1/2 year period, which gives me very little chance of having experienced something equally as bad before. As I said, I haven't.
I speak to rep by PM, but if there's any suggestion in posts that he/Wintingo have been the cause of this of course an unreserved apology is offered.
Please remember though Wintingo never got back to me as regards that RTP so I had help as you saw.

The chances of someone hitting the 5 wilds on wildstorm is far worse than 3000/1.....and yet people hit it. Check the winner screenshots.

How do you explain that? Is it rigged?

Why don't you see members posting huge wins in the "non bonus complaints" section? After all, some of them would be 100,000/1 chances.

Its ok. Ill answer. Its because they WON. The only ones that whine and yell rigged are the ones on the LOSING end of the pendulum.

You'll happily accept a 5 wild feature, but you can't accept an exceptionally bad run.

Kktmds stats are open to interpretation BTW. He also states the slot pays as it should and is fair.

 

[kktmd]

On a lighter note:

In all my spins, the best Wildstorm I hit was a 3-reel wild that payed 315xbet!

I only hit a 3-reel Wildstorm 5 times in all - it really deserves the name Shitstorm! I suspect you would have to do 10's or 100's of millions of spin to hit a 5-reel Wildstorm. If I ever hit a 5-reel Wildstorm, I will definitely think the game is rigged

The same number of spins (more or less) on IR gave me 4-reel Wilddesire 5 times, paying 1620xBet, 1688xBet, 1710xBet, 2025xBet and 3172xBet.

I got 3-reel Wilddesire 148 times.

 

[sscrabble]

what is your overall percentage return over the million spins , and was it similar on IR ?

It must have cost you a fortune to play that many games - I know we all enjoy playing slots but have very little chance of being ahead over a long period - is it just an addiction you cannot shake ?

 

[243 lines=daft]

Its ok. Ill answer. Its because they WON. The only ones that whine and yell rigged are the ones on the LOSING end of the pendulum.

You'll happily accept a 5 wild feature, but you can't accept an exceptionally bad run.

Forums being for discussion/debate, I don't really understand why you are trying to steamroller over the parts of this thread where both the winning and losing ends of the pendulum are discussed. Nobody apart from yourself was using the word rigged during that discussion, and as Dunover was actively acknowledging that the streaks in his experience could be just as hot as they were cold.

The real question remains whether Microgaming has ever specified exactly how it reaches its 'set in stone RTPs' (for both slots and the various virtual table games) as I cannot find anything to that effect and other parties have mentioned this apparent dearth on this thread.

Unless that question can be answered in a satisfactory way, speculation will inevitably continue. Not by 'tinfoil hat wearers' but by individuals with healthy, non assuming, open minds.

 

[Nifty29]

Forums being for discussion/debate, I don't really understand why you are trying to steamroller over the parts of this thread where both the winning and losing ends of the pendulum are discussed. Nobody apart from yourself was using the word rigged during that discussion, and as Dunover was actively acknowledging that the streaks in his experience could be just as hot as they were cold.

The real question remains whether Microgaming has ever specified exactly how it reaches its 'set in stone RTPs' (for both slots and the various virtual table games) as I cannot find anything to that effect and other parties have mentioned this apparent dearth on this thread.

Unless that question can be answered in a satisfactory way, speculation will inevitably continue. Not by 'tinfoil hat wearers' but by individuals with healthy, non assuming, open minds.

Your reply shows that you do not understand what TRTP is......otherwise you wouldn't continue making a big deal out of it being "set in stone".

The only way it is "set in stone" is that the reels, stops and paytables do not change. Hence, the casino KNOWS that, over time, the slot will return CLOSE to that TRTP. What "set in stone" does NOT mean is that the game returns EXACTLY that TRTP amount in a given period. If you think it DOES mean this, then I can understand where you're coming from....but it doesn't.

Also, casinos do not NEED to create "compensation" and "artificial streaks" and "virgin games (i.e. ones that pay differently depending on their past history)". The casinos make pretty much the SAME profit regardless. In fact, if the natural variance is altered somehow (and this IS A FORM OF RIGGING), it can COST the casino money because the ACTUAL RTP will not be HIGHER than the TRTP.....when it COULD make them MORE money if the natural variance is allowed to run it's course. It would be a whole lot of extra stuffing around for no financial gain.

No tinfoil hatter or tinfoil-hatter-in-waiting uses the word "rigged" because they know their credibility will take an immediate hit. Rather, they scout around the word and use other words like "compensation" and "manipulation" and "virgin slots" etc etc. It all amounts to RIGGING i.e. designing a game to function in a fashion OTHER than advertised e.g. the finsoft games. You and dunover et al can call it whatever you like, but suggesting that the slots are somehow "manipulated"....and you HAVE both suggested this (I provided quotes earlier for dunover)...is exactly the same as calling them "rigged".

I'm not "steamrolling" over anything. Unless you call providing the facts and sound logic and mathematics "steamrolling". Actually, now I think about it, if I had some idea/theory/conspiracy etc in my head that I was convinced was true, and someone was continually not only debunking those theories but providing cold hard facts to the contrary, I would probably see that as "steamrolling".

If you read some of my posts, you will see that I have stated that I have no issue at all with people complaining about losses. I never have. I do have an issue when they blame the software, the operator, or both for their losses. Admittedly, dunover and yourself et al in this thread aren't in the same class as some screaming lunatics I've seen over the years claiming "It's <insert other term for rigged here> I tells ya!!", so I do find that refreshing. However, the suggestions made are the same. The other common denominator is that they continue to play using that very same software....go figure! Who is to blame for subsequent losses when the player insists there is "something wrong" with the games? The player of course.

If yourself and dunover said right now "That's it. I'm not touching MGS ever again" then I would at least consider you to have the courage or your convictions. However, I'm sure you will both play at MGS again and the same game to boot, and probably post again in the future about there being "something wrong" with the software, or the particular operator "changing the TRTP" etc. I will also predict that these posts will involve heavy or unusual LOSSES, as with all posts that question game fairness and integrity. When I add all this together, I look at these "theories" with a sigh of "meh...they don't even believe it themselves so why should I try?". As I said, I'm only presenting the realities for the benefit of new members and those who wish to know how slots REALLY work.

Out of interest....why is my presentation of contrary facts and information in this thread not "discussion" or "debate". Does it only count if I agree with everything you say? Your statement is weird, and way off the reservation.

 

[Balthazar]

I have no issue at all with people complaining about losses. I never have.

Good! So now I can complain about THE WORST RUN EVER ON BDBA! 550 spins with no free spins, NOT ONCE. Ate my entire $130 bankroll at $0.54 a spin

 

[LaHutti]

Which, again, is very normal for that game. I think my all times "best" is 1200 spins without a bonus round, and I have had numerous sessions, like the one you experienced.
On the other hand, I've hit the rocks with wilds, in base game, between 12 and 15 times over time, where some people will never see them.
My wife hit the rocks with wilds 2 times in free spins, where MOST people will never see them, and other 5 oak with wilds combinations. I have yet to see ONE combination higher than Aces in the bonus round....
That game is such high variance that you can not even begin to guess, if you'll ever hit anything worth mentioning.

Good! So now I can complain about THE WORST RUN EVER ON BDBA! 550 spins with no free spins, NOT ONCE. Ate my entire $130 bankroll at $0.54 a spin

 

[mrmark21]

Which, again, is very normal for that game. I think my all times "best" is 1200 spins without a bonus round, and I have had numerous sessions, like the one you experienced.
On the other hand, I've hit the rocks with wilds, in base game, between 12 and 15 times over time, where some people will never see them.
My wife hit the rocks with wilds 2 times in free spins, where MOST people will never see them, and other 5 oak with wilds combinations. I have yet to see ONE combination higher than Aces in the bonus round....
That game is such high variance that you can not even begin to guess, if you'll ever hit anything worth mentioning.

Yes I'm one of them that have never seen them That's normal though for such a high variance game

 

[kktmd]

what is your overall percentage return over the million spins , and was it similar on IR ?

It must have cost you a fortune to play that many games - I know we all enjoy playing slots but have very little chance of being ahead over a long period - is it just an addiction you cannot shake ?

I posted the overall stats in another thread. I only play in freeplay (not using real money). It would be much more interesting to play for real money, but that WOULD cost a fortune

Also, using bots in real play is not allowed, so if I won (against all odds), they could well confiscate the winnings.

 

[kktmd]

Which, again, is very normal for that game. I think my all times "best" is 1200 spins without a bonus round, and I have had numerous sessions, like the one you experienced.....

My wife hit the rocks with wilds 2 times in free spins, where MOST people will never see them, and other 5 oak with wilds combinations.....

I played 2.050.540 spins (in free mode) and never got the 5 diamonds+wild in the bonus round. Best I got was a payline with 4 wilds and the gold bar (win=2777xbet).

1200 spins without bonus rounds is actually not that bad. On average I got a bonus round every 188 spins. The chance of getting 1200 spins without a bonus round should be about 0,16% - you should experience this once every 600 days (if you played 1200 spins every day).

I did 1420 spins without hitting a bonus round the other day on BdBA and IR in real mode (I was switching between the two). It was about the same time that dunover had his lousy session. The chance of 1420 without a bonus round on those two slots is about 1 in 6000. If I play 1420 spins every day, I should experience this once every 17 years

EDIT: my original numbers sounded too high (!!), so I just checked my numbers again and edited the post.....

 

[Nifty29]

Good! So now I can complain about THE WORST RUN EVER ON BDBA! 550 spins with no free spins, NOT ONCE. Ate my entire $130 bankroll at $0.54 a spin

Yes you would be fully entitled to tell everyone how much that session sucks!

It's the reason I don't play BDBA any more.

 

[mrmark21]

Yes you would be fully entitled to tell everyone how much that session sucks!

It's the reason I don't play BDBA any more.

I second that