WishMaster Excluded from Bonus Play

[Nate]

I just found out that The WishMaster is now excluded from Bonus Play at Casino Luck - apparently this is for a 'few weeks' according to Live Chat. Are there any other places that are adopting this? I don't want to speculate either, but does anyone know why?

Nate

 

[Lemurz]

Thrills casino too.

 

[Finn]

My guess is that Wishmaster probably pays bigger proportion of it's RTP in de facto x500-x2000 hits than pretty much any other slot out there, and according to experiences of some casinos this does not mix well with bonuses from their point of view.

 

[Nate]

My guess is that Wishmaster probably pays bigger proportion of it's RTP in de facto x500-x2000 hits than pretty much any other slot out there, and according to experiences of some casinos this does not mix well with bonuses from their point of view.

Damn... I was hoping they would remove CFTBL and TwinSpin for the same reason.... Oh wait... They actually make the Casino money

Nate

 

[Brockie]

Yes I only found out it was excluded at Thrills when I went to play it, not sure why the ban, as above it is very streaky. But a lot of slots are like this.

The other reason could be the potential of getting 3 good wishes on a relatively high stake and saving these spins for when not playing with a bonus.

 

[Nate]

Well I thought that this was an 'EveryMatrix' thing:

The Chat rep at Guts said they weren't aware of such a rule. The ABC (although not on EM) rep also clarified that they do not block the game.

For now it seems its Thrills and Casinoluck (I would assume sisters Superlenny and NextCasino would be included)

Nate

 

[mattsgame]

Kind of strange really.

Sure I have some ok hits on it but I had to lose my shirt and one shoe first, which would have had me bust on any and many bonuses.


Guess a lot of people got lucky at these 2 casinos on the game and they didn't like it.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Well I thought that this was an 'EveryMatrix' thing:

The Chat rep at Guts said they weren't aware of such a rule. The ABC (although not on EM) rep also clarified that they do not block the game.

For now it seems its Thrills and Casinoluck (I would assume sisters Superlenny and NextCasino would be included)

Nate

At least they block the game so that these strange terms do not trap the unwary. However, the strategy of blocking ever more slot games from a slots bonus could backfire on the operators because the refusal to explain why this is happening causes speculation as to why, and since the RTP is published, and is not overly generous, it means speculation has to be on other things.

It could be the good wishes, or the streakiness, or anything else, but it can also suggest to players that some games are excluded because just as in Animal Farm "all slots are random, but some are more random than others", with the "less random" slots being the ones that are both excluded, and the better deal for the player.

 

[spintee]

I noticed this yesterday at thrills, It would not load so I automatically guessed that it is now bared from bonus play, Which in a way was a good thing as I had a little win for once, I see Nate mentioned about twinspin, Glad that stayed as that gave me a good few wins

 

[Erik]

Hi,

I can only speak for Thrills & SuperLenny, but the reason it was excluded had nothing to do with players winning on this slot. We like winners - They make the happiest players

However, after thorough investigation we found that a group of players had started playing this and similar slots with ill intent. I would like to avoid going into detail, but as you can guess these players were trying to get an advantage using one of our generous bonus offers. Also I want to emphasize that it had nothing to do with this games Streakiness or RNG that made us exclude it.

To avoid any "shady T&Cs" the Casino Team decided to simply exclude The Wish Master and a few more games from bonus play completely. All-in-all 5 games have been excluded from bonus play - But there's still 500+ games still included!

Regards
Erik

 

[gagamel]

One year ago I said that all this bonus hunting/abusing is bullshit and will touch "normal" players soon.

A lot of members told me that this is like a competition and it`s the way it has to go.

Well, here we are. The "normal" player has to pay the price.

Thanks to all the fraudsters around. More restrictions , more rules for bonuses, that`s the consequence for ME and most players here in this forum.

 

[asghan]

The other reason could be the potential of getting 3 good wishes on a relatively high stake and saving these spins for when not playing with a bonus.

I think that this is exactly the reason of exclusion. Erik made some hints in his post.

 

[gagamel]

I think that this is exactly the reason of exclusion. Erik made some hints in his post.

Where please?

 

[asghan]

When he mentioned about other games being excluded along with Wishmaster.

Those games are: Devil's Delight, Champion of the Track and Robin Hood.

They all work in similar way, you are collecting bonus symbols. like souls in Devil's Delight, and then you play bonus round.

Bonus hunters are collecting symbols with bonus funds, and then they return to play bonus round with real cash.

I guess it must be the same with Wishmaster and wishes.

 

[vinylweatherman]

When he mentioned about other games being excluded along with Wishmaster.

Those games are: Devil's Delight, Champion of the Track and Robin Hood.

They all work in similar way, you are collecting bonus symbols. like souls in Devil's Delight, and then you play bonus round.

Bonus hunters are collecting symbols with bonus funds, and then they return to play bonus round with real cash.

I guess it must be the same with Wishmaster and wishes.

Rather silly slot design then.

Surely the designers knew full well that giving bonuses is the mainstay of the online casino industry, yet they failed to take this into account when designing the games.

The good thing is that they did manage to implement software based enforcement that blocks access to the banned games, so no player should be capable of breaking this term.

However, are they sure they have not simply moved the problem, rather than having solved it?

It's the zeroing out of WR when the player busts out that has made this AP method (and others) a problem. If WR routinely carried over, many of the AP methods would be worthless, and as such it would be possible to reduce the current dizzyingly high WR requirements back to levels not seen in a decade or more.

The clever and crafty players are simply going to look for the next method of gaining an advantage, and this will be the case for as long as casinos rely so much on bonuses. All they are REALLY doing is trying to win over the long term, the same thing that the operators are trying to do. The clever players look for the best ways to play the games and offers, whilst the operators look for the best ways to market their wares and entice players into parting with their money. SPAM is one thing that is the operator equivalent of "playing the game with ill intent", misleading advertising of an offer to make it appear much better than it is another "ill intent" in the marketing game.

Since it is almost unheard of to receive 32Red spam, the operators who do seem to get involved with spam are doing less than they are capable of in order to address the problem, hence the "ill intent" of turning a blind eye in order to gain the advantage that a small percentage of conversions IS from responses to spam, which they would lose were they to adopt a strict "zero tolerance" approach.

 

[brianmon]

Some misleading spam from the 32Red group

Sorry to digress.... But

Since it is almost unheard of to receive 32Red spam, the operators who do seem to get involved with spam are doing less than they are capable of in order to address the problem, hence the "ill intent" of turning a blind eye in order to gain the advantage that a small percentage of conversions IS from responses to spam, which they would lose were they to adopt a strict "zero tolerance" approach.

What they neglected to mention was that it was actually a £25 bonus. It only worked out at 100% for a £25 deposit. if you were to deposit £50, it would have been a 50% bonus, deposit £100 (which I was intending to do), a 25% bonus.
The link to 'find out more' just lead to the standard bonus T&C
I emailed CS about it, but never had a reply. So I just uninstalled Dash.

 

[chuchu59]

I played at Casino Luck yesterday. Deposited with a bonus and went to WM but was denied making spins where I was told there was not enough money in my account. Played other games, busted out and deposited 20 bucks and won another 20 at the live casino. Went to WM again and the same thing happened. It was a full cash balance so maybe its more a glitch than not allowing the slot to be played with a bonus.

 

[mattsgame]

When he mentioned about other games being excluded along with Wishmaster.

Those games are: Devil's Delight, Champion of the Track and Robin Hood.

They all work in similar way, you are collecting bonus symbols. like souls in Devil's Delight, and then you play bonus round.

Bonus hunters are collecting symbols with bonus funds, and then they return to play bonus round with real cash.

I guess it must be the same with Wishmaster and wishes.

Ahh, I will admit this was not something I thought of but should have. I have had 3 of the bonus symbols before when I have gone bust and the symbols stay there when I next load up with funds.

Wishmaster is a lot harder to achieve the 3 bonus symbols than collecting them on the other games you mentioned above but I can now see how it could be problematic and bonus abusers would try to use it to there advantage.

 

[Balthazar]

Also I want to emphasize that it had nothing to do with this games Streakiness or RNG that made us exclude it.

Thanks for replying Erik.

We've heard in the past of groups of AP's taking bonuses together and then betting big on a high variance game. Should be able to find a solution without banning the game

 

[Balthazar]

When he mentioned about other games being excluded along with Wishmaster.

Those games are: Devil's Delight, Champion of the Track and Robin Hood.

They all work in similar way, you are collecting bonus symbols. like souls in Devil's Delight, and then you play bonus round.

Bonus hunters are collecting symbols with bonus funds, and then they return to play bonus round with real cash.

I guess it must be the same with Wishmaster and wishes.

It's not the same at all. It's possible to get all 3 wishes on your very first spin on WM while it's not possible on the other games. You don't really collect things on WM, you just get lucky if you get many bonus symbols in a few spins.


The problem has been openly discussed here in the past, Erik can't say it but I can.

A group of AP's (say 5 ppl) takes the bonus and bets high on a high variance game (like WM). If they win, they split the money. Since they are all playing as "one entity" vs the casino, from the casino's POV it's like giving out the bonus 5 times to the same player. They play a high variance game and bet big so if they win it's still worth it after the money has been split.

One player depositing $100 with a 100% bonus ($200 bankroll) spinning WM at $6/spin doesn't have a good chance to hit something big.
Five players depositing $100 each with a 100% bonus (so a $1000 total bankroll) spinning WM at $6/spin have a MUCH better chance to do it though.

They could do it on any game, but WM seems like a good balance of "high variance vs chances of triggering a good win" slot. Perfect slot to try to pull that sort of "scam".

 

[Balthazar]

One more thing...

For those wondering why someone would do that instead of depositing $100 on their own, getting a bonus ($200 bankroll) and playing at $1.20/spin... it's true that the chances of winning would be the same and the money at the end would also be the same (would win 5x less but wouldn't have to share). However, the advantage here is WR. In the first example, they'd get $500 worth of bonus but would only have to complete WR on $100. That's where they cheat the system.

 

[maphesto]

I have waited for this to come. Collecting slot machines, the ones who collect symbols or features which can be played later do attract EV+ seekers.

This is not about the high variance at all. If so, it would be DoA or COTBL they chose to restrict from bonus play.

RTG have a few collecting machines, MG have a few. There was a time when MG players could collect symbols/features on Scrooge, Wealth Spa and Tomb Raider 2 using high stakes with bonus money and then return with their own funds later. It was not restricted at all.

The other reason could be the potential of getting 3 good wishes on a relatively high stake and saving these spins for when not playing with a bonus.

Well, here we are. The "normal" player has to pay the price.

Thanks to all the fraudsters around. More restrictions , more rules for bonuses, that`s the consequence for ME and most players here in this forum.

Yes, "normal" players have to pay the price. Fraudsters are not the same as bonus hunters or EV+ seekers. As long as players do follow rules and are legitimate players, they are not fraudsters.

When he mentioned about other games being excluded along with Wishmaster.

Those games are: Devil's Delight, Champion of the Track and Robin Hood.

They all work in similar way, you are collecting bonus symbols. like souls in Devil's Delight, and then you play bonus round.

Bonus hunters are collecting symbols with bonus funds, and then they return to play bonus round with real cash.

I guess it must be the same with Wishmaster and wishes.

Yes!

NetEnt have some more machines (not mentioned in this thread I think) who really do depend on earlier spins:

Aliens
Eggomatic
Lucky Angler
Big Bang
Crime Scene

Theoretically, a player can use bonus funds to play these games and then leave it at the right moment and then return with their own funds. Just to let you know.

 

[petro]

Edited out.
I thought the slot may have just paid well. But after reading further posts it seems there was some kind of flaw in the game which allowed it to be abused.

The other reason could be the potential of getting 3 good wishes on a relatively high stake and saving these spins for when not playing with a bonus.

Yes, that is probably it. As I recall even in the bonus round you have to pay for your spins. Meaning that people on a bonus could bet high then finish it when they are not on a bonus, bypassing the WR.

 

[Balthazar]

Theoretically, a player can use bonus funds to play these games and then leave it at the right moment and then return with their own funds. Just to let you know.

Unless they are about to bust out and/or have very little WR done, that'd be pretty pointless. Collecting 3 good symbols would be a good thing to help them to go through WR in the first place.

It sure wouldn't be an elaborated scam worth banning the slot from being played with bonus funds...

 

[Brockie]

Unless they are about to bust out and/or have very little WR done, that'd be pretty pointless. Collecting 3 good symbols would be a good thing to help them to go through WR in the first place.

It sure wouldn't be an elaborated scam worth banning the slot from being played with bonus funds...

If the 3 good symbols were the random wild, expanding wild and one of either the orange or pink symbols with say over 10 spins this would almost likely bring a 500 times stake or more so I would see this as an 'advantage' so to speak.

It's a shame that 'advantage players' see this and ruin this for others like me who likes this game.

But from the casinos point of view it would be a nightmare trying to write terms and conditions about not leaving wishes in play.

 

[maphesto]

My guess is that all NetEnt casinos who offer (100% or above) bonuses soon will restrict this game from bonus play. Personally, I don't mind, I don't like this game.

Some NetEnt's have 400 or 500% welcome offer. The player do not have to deposit much at all, almost impossible WR to clear. Collects the symbols on WM and then leave for other machines. Win or lose, he/she immediately comes back with a fresh deposit with a very low risk an continues with the same stake on WM.

 

[vinylweatherman]

It seems the poor slot design is worse than I thought, with many different developers making the same mistake. Maybe they are blocking more slots than they need to because they are trying to be as thorough as possible in order to achieve a good fix now, rather than have to chase after the evolving scene, forever shutting stable doors as the horse canters off in the distance (with the money).

I think many casinos now have such games blocked from play with bonus credits, the error is "not enough funds for this bet", and it seems that the block is achieved by not transferring the bonus balance over to the game.

However, there could be other "less than 100% random" games where the relationship between past spins and future outcomes is less obvious.

With most of the games, the player CANNOT play off the bonus round early just because they have busted out, they are FORCED to redeposit in order to carry on chasing.

Curiously, we had a few fruit machines like this, Action Bank and clones back in the 1980's. They would build up a pot of nudges or cash that would grow ever higher if the player kept knocking back the offers. This feature was later outlawed in a new set of machine regulations as it encouraged players to "chase" the pot until it offered the jackpot rather than take a lower offer and move away from the machine once they had spent their budget. I wonder if the technical standards due to come in next year under the UKGC will place similar restrictions on games such as Tomb Raider that force players to chase tokens in order to unlock a potentially large payout. If they do, such games will have to be pulled from UK players, or redesigned to meet the standards.

 

[maphesto]

I don't know if "Dallas", Unibet's exclusive NetEnt slot, is excluded from bonus play.

At "Dallas" you collect bonus money and when you have 5 bonus dollars the bonus game starts. The bonus game use your average bet during collecting spins. The player (if it's not excluded) can use bonus funds to collect 4 bonus dollars with high stakes and return with own funds and bet lower and still have a reasonable average bet.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I don't know if "Dallas", Unibet's exclusive NetEnt slot, is excluded from bonus play.

At "Dallas" you collect bonus money and when you have 5 bonus dollars the bonus game starts. The bonus game use your average bet during collecting spins. The player (if it's not excluded) can use bonus funds to collect 4 bonus dollars with high stakes and return with own funds and bet lower and still have a reasonable average bet.

It will be now you have mentioned it

It seems very much like TRII, where you have to collect 5 passports to travel the world for a payout of up to 450x average bet.

The downside is that it could be hundreds of spins before even the first passport is collected, and the last is hardest of all to collect (has to be unique, they are collected once for each reel).

It initially doesn't seem to offer a serious advantage due to the unpredictability of when all 5 will be collected, but maybe the players have now worked out a viable strategy that makes it a step too far for operators to ignore.

Unfortunately, more complicated slot games being developed means more opportunities to gain an advantage through the game mechanism. ANY game that carries value over from earlier bets is potentially a problem.

Unfortunately the seemingly random banning of otherwise ordinary slots has made a far wider audience aware that these opportunities exist, and probably have existed for some time, mostly undiscovered. This far wider audience now knows what to look for in future.

Developers will have to design such advantages out of the games, or implement an across the board blocking option for operators who use bonuses (which is probably all of them). Having the games blocked helps players because they can't break any terms that have suffered an "emergency update" because the operator "just noticed" the scale of the problem, and operators don't need to be forever paranoid about a similar type of issue going undetected, forcing them to drive WR to insane levels based on the drop in overall hold from their players.

However, there are also those games that have been banned where there is no such obvious problem, so despite this aspect having reached a wider audience, there is something else going on that currently has a much more restricted audience.

 

[vinylweatherman]

It's not the same at all. It's possible to get all 3 wishes on your very first spin on WM while it's not possible on the other games. You don't really collect things on WM, you just get lucky if you get many bonus symbols in a few spins.


The problem has been openly discussed here in the past, Erik can't say it but I can.

A group of AP's (say 5 ppl) takes the bonus and bets high on a high variance game (like WM). If they win, they split the money. Since they are all playing as "one entity" vs the casino, from the casino's POV it's like giving out the bonus 5 times to the same player. They play a high variance game and bet big so if they win it's still worth it after the money has been split.

One player depositing $100 with a 100% bonus ($200 bankroll) spinning WM at $6/spin doesn't have a good chance to hit something big.
Five players depositing $100 each with a 100% bonus (so a $1000 total bankroll) spinning WM at $6/spin have a MUCH better chance to do it though.

They could do it on any game, but WM seems like a good balance of "high variance vs chances of triggering a good win" slot. Perfect slot to try to pull that sort of "scam".

How is this different from ONE player taking a 100% bonus 5 times and employing the same strategy?

One main factor is that casinos always treat new customers better than the existing ones. If instead they gave the best bonuses to their loyal players, there would be no point in having an organised group of APs take a number of 100% bonuses from the same casinos, as ONE AP could simply take all 5 having become a loyal player.

It doesn't seem as big an issue as the casinos make it out to be.

I was once asked to join a fruit machine "syndicate" where we would all be run by a big boss, be funded as a group, play as a group, and split the risk and proceeds. My response was an immediate "are you mad!!!". I said I would be better off as I am, using my own money, being my own boss, and keeping ALL of the proceeds. Playing as an employee would suck all the fun out of it. My suspicion though was that I was being "shut down" by being lured into the fold where I could be controlled, because operating on my own, I was beating their group efforts into the dust As I didn't join, he carried out his threat to get me banned, so effectively I was "shut down" in the end. This also told me that the "corruption" went a little higher than just a group of players, otherwise his threats would have been a bluff, an "empty" threat, just like the machines after I had finished with them

I didn't think this kind of thing would be a big problem online, as it would involve the transfer of money to people I don't know other than by a forum handle, and where they say they are located. I remember the Cypher syndicate, which in the end left quite a few members thoroughly ripped off after handing over money for a "sure fire" piece of software that could beat online Blackjack through complex pattern analysis, and even more to have the game played for them in a "sweatshop" so that they didn't even have to sit with the software and click their own mouse.

 

[asghan]

It's not the same at all. It's possible to get all 3 wishes on your very first spin on WM while it's not possible on the other games. You don't really collect things on WM, you just get lucky if you get many bonus symbols in a few spins.


The problem has been openly discussed here in the past, Erik can't say it but I can.

A group of AP's (say 5 ppl) takes the bonus and bets high on a high variance game (like WM). If they win, they split the money. Since they are all playing as "one entity" vs the casino, from the casino's POV it's like giving out the bonus 5 times to the same player. They play a high variance game and bet big so if they win it's still worth it after the money has been split.

One player depositing $100 with a 100% bonus ($200 bankroll) spinning WM at $6/spin doesn't have a good chance to hit something big.
Five players depositing $100 each with a 100% bonus (so a $1000 total bankroll) spinning WM at $6/spin have a MUCH better chance to do it though.

They could do it on any game, but WM seems like a good balance of "high variance vs chances of triggering a good win" slot. Perfect slot to try to pull that sort of "scam".

Sure, they can use it this way too, but I refuse to believe that Wishmaster is so much better to do this than other high varianced slots, that has to be banned.

 

[maphesto]

It will be now you have mentioned it

Yes!

Casino reps, remember who told you this stuff. Donations are greatly appreciated.

It seems very much like TRII, where you have to collect 5 passports to travel the world for a payout of up to 450x average bet.

The downside is that it could be hundreds of spins before even the first passport is collected, and the last is hardest of all to collect (has to be unique, they are collected once for each reel).

Bonus Dollars on "Dallas" are much easier to collect but the feature usually pays a lot less than the one on TR2.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Yes!

Casino reps, remember who told you this stuff. Donations are greatly appreciated.



Bonus Dollars on "Dallas" are much easier to collect but the feature usually pays a lot less than the one on TR2.

Scrooge is very easy to time, each win awards one of the two possible tokens. It's also the only MGS slot that is almost universally banned with a bonus in browser casinos. It's probably because it's so easy to set up, and where bonuses are high and frequent, it's a strategy that is too good not to ban.

I haven't seen the others like TRII and Wealth Spa banned (yet), but they are damn hard to set up, and can sometimes pay nothing at all (trap, trap on first destination on TRII).

 

[lotusch]

My guess is that Wishmaster probably pays bigger proportion of it's RTP in de facto x500-x2000 hits than pretty much any other slot out there, and according to experiences of some casinos this does not mix well with bonuses from their point of view.

I lost €500.00 in the space of 30 minutes on €1.50 bets...
So dunno what the problem is when using this monster in bonus play...
Nothing over 10x stake,it was atrocious!

And I blame you too Nate with your Wishmaster winning vids!!!
I was so inspired by those that I wanted to try the slot myself...

Oh boy,did I get smacked and spanked all over the place...

 

[Balthazar]

How is this different from ONE player taking a 100% bonus 5 times and employing the same strategy?

It's not different at all. The thing is, you're not allowed to get the welcome bonus 5 times. They do that to circumvent WR, as explained earlier in the thread.

 

[jshort]

Scrooge is very easy to time, each win awards one of the two possible tokens. It's also the only MGS slot that is almost universally banned with a bonus in browser casinos. It's probably because it's so easy to set up, and where bonuses are high and frequent, it's a strategy that is too good not to ban.

I haven't seen the others like TRII and Wealth Spa banned (yet), but they are damn hard to set up, and can sometimes pay nothing at all (trap, trap on first destination on TRII).

Lol, me too. It happened twice; TRII is on my shit list now.

 

[vinylweatherman]

It's not different at all. The thing is, you're not allowed to get the welcome bonus 5 times. They do that to circumvent WR, as explained earlier in the thread.

This becomes irrelevant when the casino offers 100% bonuses to regular players too. Many still do this, although some don't. It's also something that casinos can't really police if the players taking part are careful. It's a mistake on the part of colluding players that gets them caught, such as playing through the same internet connection, even the same PC.

After all, we all share hints and tips here on where to play, the best bonuses, and how best to play them. Whilst we don't share our money with each other but use our own, the casinos have no real way of determining this either way unless we do something that gives them a strong clue.

It's possible that some of the daft game exclusions are not because the game has an exploit, but done in order to disrupt these "syndicates" by shutting out their preferred games from use. Unlike a single player who would respond on the fly by choosing another game, a syndicate would have to convene a meeting to discuss and change their strategy.

 

[KasinoKing]

If the 3 good symbols were the random wild, expanding wild and one of either the orange or pink symbols with say over 10 spins this would almost likely bring a 500 times stake or more so I would see this as an 'advantage' so to speak.

Yes that would be a good advantage, but what are the CHANCES of the "abusers" actually getting that during their relatively short wagering at very high bets?

I guess I will never fully understand how this works out long-term for the "abusers" - I would have thought it is a VERY risky strategy for them, unless the group of players is VERY large. Even then, the profit per player must be quite small.

Oh well, if the casinos want to block certain games that's OK with me as long as it's in the T&Cs and the game physically can not be opened while a bonus is in play.

KK

 

[quber]

The safe way for the Casinos to get round these issues is to start offering after wager bonuses. Wager £500 or so and then get a bonus, this keeps the games all available and, as a player, they mean that your funds are always available to withdraw or to play anything you want.

I know most players don't like them as you don't have the extra funds up front to play with but you are not tied in with them and if you have a good run a £10 deposit can get the bonus. I am surprised we don't see more of them or at least offer a choice of limited games but start with the bonus or all games but get the bonus after.

 

[tinybettor]

Don't know what these people are thinking. 400 Euros down at 60-80 cents bet. Getting 3 good wishes that actually produce a big win is as rare as a big win on any other slot. Get one wish and 99% of the time you're paying more than winning. 2 wishes and you're lucky to break even or get slightly ahead. And if you're not getting those 3 good wishes, then you can kiss your money goodbye. More than 3OAKs are bloody rare for top symbols, so until you get those magical wishes, you can watch your balance deplete with every spin.