Why MG doesn't offer multiplayer games??

[Clayman]

at some of the land based casinos I frequent, the high roller tables all have signs saying 'No mid-shoe entry'. Those are $100 minimum tables, so I don't really blame them for wanting to keep things status quo.

The ONLY reason casinos post "No mid-shoe entry" signs is to protect themselves from card counters who would otherwise "wong-in" in positive counts. Nothing at all to do with "maintaining the flow" or some such other nonsense.

A corollary is that often, if you choose to skip a hand while seated at the table, you will not be allowed to play another hand until after the shuffle.

Recently, at a Detroit casino, I was surrounded by 4 of the worst BJ players I have EVER seen and did nothing but win. People get mad at me all the time when I hit 12 vs 4,5 or 6, or 13 vs 2 thru 6, or don't split aces in negative counts. Or double an A,8 or 9 vs 5 or 6 or double 10 vs 10 or Ace, split 10,10 vs 6, or hit 15 vs 10 in positive counts. They think I'm a really bad player. If I'm at 3rd base and do this, even my wife wants to kill me.

There are probably at least 60 such deviations from BS just in the range of -4 to +4, so, when you see some "bad" play, keep in mind he might be counting.

 

[Clayman]

By the way - I've seen high limit players do irrational moves (such as split tens), and kept a win streak alive by doing so. As they say, it's better to be lucky than good.

If he had 4 to 6 or more times his normal bet out at the time and it was vs a dealer 4-6, he almost certainly was a counter and therefore good, rather than lucky. Another tip-off would be that he left the table immediately after the hand in the hope management would not see the "I'm a counter" sign on his chest.

Or, like you say, he's a high-rolling idiot.

 

[GrandMaster]

I've never disputed the statistical or theoretical aspects, but if you've ever played at a table where this happens, you'd know it absolutely affects your actual return. As I said in my earlier post, on RARE occassions I've seen a misplay result in the dealer busting, but much more often its improved the house's advantage to have the bad player at the table.

Individual hands will be affected, of course, but the average effect is 0. You may have selective memory, you are more likely to remember when another player's play affected your hand negatively.

Let me restate it. Imagine that you have observed which cards have been played, and then you have two table for each of possible combination of dealer's hole card and order of cards of the remaining deck. At one of these tables you have a player who stays, at the other you have a player who hits. Then you average the results over the two sets of tables, and the average will be the same.

 

[gfkostas]

gfk, at some of the land based casinos I frequent, the high roller tables all have signs saying 'No mid-shoe entry'. Those are $100 minimum tables, so I don't really blame them for wanting to keep things status quo. Sometimes when I get bored or run out of my gambling money for the day, I'll go an watch these guys bet (and lose) hundreds & hundreds per hand. All done without a word from the players or dealer, just hand motions. Doesn't seem like as much fun as a low limit table with people cheering each other on and a dealer hoping to bust his own hand. That's the kind of dealer I enjoy tipping.

That's not the case for at least 80% of London casinos.It's ridicullous to have people preaching you like THEY KNOW how to play BJ.I'm there to play my money and what ever I do is none of their business.If the manager comes im sure i will win the case or be moved to an other private table for my satisfaction

 

[Clayman]

That's not the case for at least 80% of London casinos.It's ridicullous to have people preaching you like THEY KNOW how to play BJ.I'm there to play my money and what ever I do is none of their business.If the manager comes im sure i will win the case or be moved to an other private table for my satisfaction

Once, at Casino Niagara, this guy asked me very nicely if I would mind waiting before joining the table in mid-shoe because he was in the middle of a hot streak. I said fine, as I usually do, knowing I'll be pissing everybody off soon enough anyway. His streak continued. When the shoe was over, he gave me a $25 chip for NOT joining the table.

Maybe you should ask these people how much is it worth it to them for you to not play! If they don't pay you, they shouldn't care.

It's also funny that, once seated at a table, these same folks never seem to care at all if you skip a few hands.

 

[jpm]

Oooh, interesting strategy there. Get paid not to play. Might be worth a try!

 

[jpm]

Individual hands will be affected, of course, but the average effect is 0. You may have selective memory, you are more likely to remember when another player's play affected your hand negatively.

Let me restate it. Imagine that you have observed which cards have been played, and then you have two table for each of possible combination of dealer's hole card and order of cards of the remaining deck. At one of these tables you have a player who stays, at the other you have a player who hits. Then you average the results over the two sets of tables, and the average will be the same.

No arguement the average effect will eventually be 0, but as I said, either the bad player's bankroll or your own won't live long enough to even out. Its always a very small sample. And the negative play is probably a more vivid memory as well.

The ONLY reason casinos post "No mid-shoe entry" signs is to protect themselves from card counters who would otherwise "wong-in" in positive counts. Nothing at all to do with "maintaining the flow" or some such other nonsense.

A corollary is that often, if you choose to skip a hand while seated at the table, you will not be allowed to play another hand until after the shuffle.

Interesting, thanks for the explaination on that. I always thought it was to keep the players happy, but its actually to keep the casino 'happy'. Makes more sense that way now that I think about it.

 

[gfkostas]

Don't be too harsh on them, these are the people who keep the casinos in business.

For those who still believe that other people's play affects them, I recommend that they check the Optional Stopping Theorem for Martingales (nothing to do the martingale betting system), here is a reference on the web

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

. It is heavy duty mathematics, but you can also do calculations by hand for particular cases if you assume that there are only a few cards left in the deck.

In UK you can have up to 3 different bets from 3 different persons in one hand.The person who place the first bet has the responsibility for the hand.I was that one at the BJ table.I got a 12 and dealer had 2.I hit i got an ace for a total of 13.I stand and dealer got 19.Then i had some stupid blind superstitious players start bothering me that they lost their bet because of my poor decision etc.I got pissed off and left the casino.Is it possible to demand that i dont want any bet along with mine?If someone from uk know please let me know.This situation is a joke i can't even play BJ now because I play wrong for them or if i go to play in the middle of the shoe I again have problems because I affect their outcome

 

[GrandMaster]

I would not trust someone else to play for my money unless I am confident that that person can play at least basic strategy.

 

[jpm]

In the US it seems to be customary for someone to ask if they can play behind you. Most people don't even know this is an option though, I rarely see it anymore.

 

[DealerBusts]

No arguement the average effect will eventually be 0, but as I said, either the bad player's bankroll or your own won't live long enough to even out. Its always a very small sample. And the negative play is probably a more vivid memory as well.

I have to say that I've played at land casinos and other peoples play definitely doesn't matter. I've been helped as much as i have been screwed by other people's play. You are also going to get screwed more often than not because of the house advantage the casino has.

As for evening out, you might get lucky first and have other player's bad play help you at the start. There is no reason why their play should influence your hand negatively instead of positively at the start of a playing session.

 

[Clayman]

In UK you can have up to 3 different bets from 3 different persons in one hand.The person who place the first bet has the responsibility for the hand.

Actually, assuming that when the primary player splits and the "piggybacker" has the option of splitting his hand or not, and, if he chooses not to split, his hand becomes the first "post-split" hand, a nice opportunity for collusion between primary and "piggybacker" exists.

For instance in 8,8 vs 10, since EV of 16 vs 10 < than EV of 8 vs 10, when the primary player splits, the "piggybacker" has the opportunity to turn a 16 into a free 8.

If the front better bets small and is willing to make sacrificial plays, while his friend the "piggybacker" bets big, a gain of 0.2% on the HA is possible, mostly involving splitting plays.

 

[jpm]

Who gets the first new hand on a split in this scenario? The player or piggybacker? In other words, is the p.b's hand played first or second?

 

[Clayman]

Who gets the first new hand on a split in this scenario? The player or piggybacker? In other words, is the p.b's hand played first or second?

The pb's hand becomes by definition the first post-split hand of the seated player. The point is the pb has gained an advantage by being able to choose to play an 8 vs 10 rather than a 16 vs 10. Clearly, it's a benefit to be pb because you will never have to play 8,8 vs 10.

There are other plays where the seated player can make sacrificial plays to help benefit his accomplice, the pb, who is betting big. For instance the seated player would split 2,2 vs everything and allow the pb to play a single hand with first upcard of 2.

This is assuming of course that the pb is not required to also split when the seated player chooses to do so. But I think that is how it usually works. Unless the casinos have become smarter. I think they are just happy to be getting the increased action that pbing allows.

 

[sw2003]

Actually, assuming that when the primary player splits and the "piggybacker" has the option of splitting his hand or not, and, if he chooses not to split, his hand becomes the first "post-split" hand, a nice opportunity for collusion between primary and "piggybacker" exists.

For instance in 8,8 vs 10, since EV of 16 vs 10 < than EV of 8 vs 10, when the primary player splits, the "piggybacker" has the opportunity to turn a 16 into a free 8.

If the front better bets small and is willing to make sacrificial plays, while his friend the "piggybacker" bets big, a gain of 0.2% on the HA is possible, mostly involving splitting plays.

Could you explain a bit better please? I don't see why both of them shouldn't split the pair of 8's given that you already said the EV of 8,8 vs 10 is bigger than 16 vs 10?

 

[Clayman]

Could you explain a bit better please? I don't see why both of them shouldn't split the pair of 8's given that you already said the EV of 8,8 vs 10 is bigger than 16 vs 10?

Simply put, you lose more money by properly splitting 8,8 vs 10 than you do when your first card is an 8 vs a 10 and are able to take your chances on what your second card to go along with the 8 will be. Naturally the seated player still makes the decision how to play his split hands. But the pb is only betting on one of the 2 hands that begins with a single 8. Wouldn't you rather have the chance of playing 8,A, 8,2, 8,3, 8,4 8,5, 8,6, 8,7 8,9 or 8,10 vs a 10 rather than having to play an 8,8 vs 10?

Think of it as being dealt 8,8 vs 10 and then being allowed to ask the dealer to remove one of your 8's and then deal the next card to you.

 

[sw2003]

ok this piggback rule is foreign to me! So the piggy guy could effectively have one card removed whenever there is a pair and the primary player split the hand.
That makes quite a bit of a difference! I would have thought the casino would force the biggerbacker to play the same thing as the primary guy.

 

[ukcroupier]

Piggybacking will generaly only occur when there's a full table (although some idiots do it even when there's a seat). So, given that it is a full table, the casino is getting extra action from the piggybacker that they wouldn't get without the rule so they're willing to put up with the occasional 'cheater'

As to gfkostas's query about not allowing piggybackers, I'm afraid you've got no choice unless you're a highroller. When I was a UK dealer (4 years back) the rule was that the maximum bet was per box not per hand - so just bet the box up to the table maximum and then nobody can piggyback with you

 

[jpm]

I'm sure if you made enough of a fuss about it, they would tell the pb to find someone else to play behind though. Personally, I wouldn't allow it unless it was a friend of mine.

Here's another question, not sure if anyone knows this, are your comp points based on just your bets, or yours + a pb if one is playing behind you?

 

[GrandMaster]

I'm sure if you made enough of a fuss about it, they would tell the pb to find someone else to play behind though. Personally, I wouldn't allow it unless it was a friend of mine.

Here's another question, not sure if anyone knows this, are your comp points based on just your bets, or yours + a pb if one is playing behind you?

The piggybacker does not change anything for you, unless he distracts you or you have disagreements over the correct strategy. It is the piggybacker who is risking his money on your skills.

 

[sw2003]

How do you get comps from Blackjack table game? I don't believe there is a person sitting there with a notebook just to record all your wager, is there?

 

[jpm]

That's one thing the pitboss does, checks your play and enters your comps into the computer. At least at the places I've been at in the US. Maybe its a different system in the UK.

Grandmaster, that's what I meant, distraction or disagreement. I just tell them no if they ask to play behind me. I just don't want the distraction or second guessing.

 

[Clayman]

Piggybacking will generaly only occur when there's a full table (although some idiots do it even when there's a seat).

Well, as I tried to point out, you can actually reduce the house edge by piggybacking, so there is a good reason to piggyback even though there may be empty seats. Rather than being idiotic, it's actually smart.

And, if the seated player is betting $5 and making apparently insane plays like splitting 2,2 vs 10 while the pb is betting $100, you can be sure they know exactly what they are doing.

Can you, or anyone, say whether piggybackers currently have the option of not splitting along with the seated player?

 

[ukcroupier]

The idiots I refered to were those who didn't take advantage of the system but just lumped there chips on and let someone else do the job - regardless of whether they could play or not.

 

[gfkostas]

Can you, or anyone, say whether piggybackers currently have the option of not splitting along with the seated player?

The piggybacker must split along with the seated player.He can choose not to double but he must split if the seated player wants to.What if the piggybacker doesn't have anymore money? he will ruin your hand except if you want to bet for him.

In uk we have no comps.At least based on the 80% of casinos am a member of you don't get comps even if you are high roller or not.

I have all the time problems with piggybackers distracting me,blaming me and many disagreements on how I play my hand.Lately I got irritated so much with some idiots where they got the point at last that I don't want any bloody piggybacker behind me.Better online sniff sniff