Why MG doesn't offer multiplayer games??
- Thread starter gfkostas
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speaking of multi-player:
I was playing blackjack at Intercasino last week with two other players at the table. A new player joins and first hand hits his seventeen against the dealer's two. He took the dealers bust card (hole card was a ten), the dealer draws a nine, everybody looses. WELCOME TO THE TABLE A-HOLE!
I'll give the guy credit though, he did apologize, saying he hit the wrong button (mouse fart).
OTOH, there have been times when it seems like the addition of another player has turned a bad run of cards for the better.
And don't get me started about the players who take the entire count down to decide they are going to pass the next hand.
Maybe I should play more microgaming. Too bad I win most at Crypto's.
I was playing blackjack at Intercasino last week with two other players at the table. A new player joins and first hand hits his seventeen against the dealer's two. He took the dealers bust card (hole card was a ten), the dealer draws a nine, everybody looses. WELCOME TO THE TABLE A-HOLE!
I'll give the guy credit though, he did apologize, saying he hit the wrong button (mouse fart).
OTOH, there have been times when it seems like the addition of another player has turned a bad run of cards for the better.
And don't get me started about the players who take the entire count down to decide they are going to pass the next hand.
Maybe I should play more microgaming. Too bad I win most at Crypto's.
Dirk Diggler
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The only fun I have from playing multi-player games is through the utter astonishment of how many bad BJ players there are out there.
Splitting cards is always the most amazing - seeing 4's and 6's split when dealer showing face or ace is a sight to behold
Splitting cards is always the most amazing - seeing 4's and 6's split when dealer showing face or ace is a sight to behold
sw2003
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What do you care how other people play? It is their money!
If everybody plays the same, then we might just as well send an
army of robots in there to play for us! No fun!
If everybody plays the same, then we might just as well send an
army of robots in there to play for us! No fun!
I only care when it affects my chances of winning. Like previous posters have said, there are so many bad players out there that screw up the table for everyone else. Its ok if you want to watch others play, but you don't really want them playing with you if they are going to screw you up do you?
angahar
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Also, another player's decisions can't lower your expected return. Here is a section from the wizardofodds gambling myths section:
Myth: That idiot at third base is killing me.
Fact: A common myth at the blackjack table is that a bad player, especially one in the last seat, will disrupt the natural order of the cards and cause everyone to lose. It is true that such a player sometimes will make a play that will result in the dealer beating everybody rather than breaking. However in the short run such a player is just as likely to help you as to hurt you and in the long run they won't make any difference. The cards are in random order and they are not prearranged to make the dealer break assuming correct play. If anyone rebukes you for hitting a stiff hand at third base tell them you'll keep doing so when the odds favor it and if they don't like it they can find another table.
My first time ever playing blackjack I was at a land casino. I had a 14 versus a dealer 5, and because I didn't know what the hell I was doing I hit. I got a 7 which was fine for me but the smarmy gambaholic at the table with me was totally pissed. He kept ranting on about me hitting the dealers break card. What a jerk. I had told the dealer that I had never played but she rudely said she couldn't help me. I moved to another table and got a dealer that told me the basic strategy for every hand until I learned the ropes, plus some players that were actually having fun. So anyway don't scold a player for bad plays. They are just as likely to help you as hurt you.
Myth: That idiot at third base is killing me.
Fact: A common myth at the blackjack table is that a bad player, especially one in the last seat, will disrupt the natural order of the cards and cause everyone to lose. It is true that such a player sometimes will make a play that will result in the dealer beating everybody rather than breaking. However in the short run such a player is just as likely to help you as to hurt you and in the long run they won't make any difference. The cards are in random order and they are not prearranged to make the dealer break assuming correct play. If anyone rebukes you for hitting a stiff hand at third base tell them you'll keep doing so when the odds favor it and if they don't like it they can find another table.
My first time ever playing blackjack I was at a land casino. I had a 14 versus a dealer 5, and because I didn't know what the hell I was doing I hit. I got a 7 which was fine for me but the smarmy gambaholic at the table with me was totally pissed. He kept ranting on about me hitting the dealers break card. What a jerk. I had told the dealer that I had never played but she rudely said she couldn't help me. I moved to another table and got a dealer that told me the basic strategy for every hand until I learned the ropes, plus some players that were actually having fun. So anyway don't scold a player for bad plays. They are just as likely to help you as hurt you.
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bethug said:dirk and them same people want to run to this forum say the games is fixed and they cant even play
I run this forum. What be you sayin'?
bethug said:jpm, i like when people cant play, i know for a fact the casino will have money to pay me
LOL, good point!
I don't really believe in the wizard's view on bad players at your table. I think they do affect your game, at least in the short term. Over the long term (thousands of hands or more), I'm sure the affect probably becomes negligible, however, most of us don't have the bankroll to survive that long with a bad player screwing up the table. I've had it happen too many times at land based casinos to think its not going to affect the table.
However, I never say anything to the bad player who is screwing up. I think that is obnoxious behavior. I either grin & bear it waiting for them to bust (take a quick peek at their stack to see how long it will last), move to another table, take a walk with my seat saved, or even offer some advice if they don't know how to play a particular hand and seem perplexed. But I can't stand the ones who berate someone else at the table for making a bad play.
GrandMaster
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jpm said:
You don't have to believe the Wizard :notworthy, he is still right. Your play does not affect the other players' expected win or loss. It affects the outcome of individual hands, but not the expectation. Sometimes the deviation from correct strategy makes no difference, sometimes it will save you by causing the dealer to bust when he would not have busted otherwise, but people don't tend to thank 3rd base when this happens.
Flavio4321
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jpm said:
I think is the first time, I see someone not agreeing with the Wizard!!!
GrandMaster said:
That's what I said, I agree when it comes to EXPECTED return, but since it is a short term game in that scenario, it certainly affects your actual return. If everyone was playing thousands of hands, it'd probably even out, but the bad player will bust out before then and will take some other players on the table down too.
hhcfreebie
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How? Would you mind to give me an example? I do know that the short term and the long term expectation are the same. If the house has an advantage, he will have the advantage be it 1 or 10,000 hands. The more hands we play, the more likely the outcome will "converge" to the expectation.jpm said:
I just can't picture how the bad players would change the outcome of my game. Maybe my feeble mind is just too rusty to come up with anything meaningful.
Hmm, come to think of it, maybe their bad play would encourage casinos to offer better promotions?
I myself always avoid playing with the others.The pace is just too slow and that effect my hourly rate.
hhcfreebie said:
Sure, real simple. I've had it happen many times at land based tables (which is why I'd never play multiplayer online). You've got one bad player that has no clue what they're doing sitting either before you or after you in the deal, doesn't seem to matter their position, and they are typically hitting when they shouldn't (like whenever they have less than 17, regardless of dealer up card), or splitting when they shouldn't. You play your hand the way you should, (doubling, hitting, standing) and you end up losing a hand you should have won because the bad player misplayed their hand. Either they pulled the card you needed or pulled the dealer's bust card away with their misplayed hit or split.
I know, I know, the card position is all random, blah blah blah. But do a quick calculation on where the cards would have fallen if they played their hand properly, and you usually see that the outcome would have been reversed had they played it right. On RARE occassions I've seen a misplay result in the dealer busting, but much more often its improved the house's advantage to have the bad player at the table.
Obviously the house always has the advantage, but the bad player is affecting my actual return. And since they probably only last for maybe a couple of dozen hands or so, there's no time for it to even out. Its just a big sigh of relief when they finally bust out and leave. I think typically its someone who's just visiting the casino for fun, etc and just plays at the cheapest table they can find ($5 at the casinos I frequent). Because of this, I'll play at the next level table ($10 or maybe $15) to avoid the 'newbie' player. Don't know if this happens online though, since I won't play multiplayer BJ online.
Other games like Let it Ride, 3 card poker, or Caribbean Stud aren't affected by the 'bad player' because the only decision is play or don't play. But I prefer to play these one on one in the hope of a better chance of getting winning hands (as in let it ride, if I have a king and 3 other players at the table do too, then the dealer will never flip one to make my hand a winner. But if its just me, then there's 3 more kings that could come out of the deck to help my hand).
dickens1298
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Statistically speaking, the concept of good or bad play ruining a table is flawed. Basic strategy is predicated on the probability of certain card combinations - whether another player hits or not does not materially affect this statistic. Here's an example:
Dealer with 6 showing, you have a 14, third base has a pat 12. You stay, third base hits, and elicits a look of hatred from you. Third base busts out with a 10. Dealer has 10 in the hole, then pulls the 3 to beat you. Sound familiar?
But what if the 3 and the 10 were reversed? Then third base "saves" the table. Are you telling me that the 10 ALWAYS comes before the 3...?
If it were this situation (where the next card was a 3), you would say that third base was lucky, and congratulate yourself on playing correctly.
Anecdotally, we tend to remember our losses due to "bad play" more than our lucky wins due to "good play".
By the way - I've seen high limit players do irrational moves (such as split tens), and kept a win streak alive by doing so. As they say, it's better to be lucky than good.
Dealer with 6 showing, you have a 14, third base has a pat 12. You stay, third base hits, and elicits a look of hatred from you. Third base busts out with a 10. Dealer has 10 in the hole, then pulls the 3 to beat you. Sound familiar?
But what if the 3 and the 10 were reversed? Then third base "saves" the table. Are you telling me that the 10 ALWAYS comes before the 3...?
If it were this situation (where the next card was a 3), you would say that third base was lucky, and congratulate yourself on playing correctly. Anecdotally, we tend to remember our losses due to "bad play" more than our lucky wins due to "good play".
By the way - I've seen high limit players do irrational moves (such as split tens), and kept a win streak alive by doing so. As they say, it's better to be lucky than good.
jpm said:
I went yesterday to Gala casino in London and when I joined the table i was told off by some players that I should not join when they are in the middle of the shoe.Like I will affect the outcome of the game.....BS!They also don't like see hits on 16 because they believe that 4,5,6 wont help you but in reverse it will help dealer to bust.They really pissing me off all these mindless players :mad
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GrandMaster
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gfkostas said:
Don't be too harsh on them, these are the people who keep the casinos in business.
For those who still believe that other people's play affects them, I recommend that they check the Optional Stopping Theorem for Martingales (nothing to do the martingale betting system), here is a reference on the web
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. It is heavy duty mathematics, but you can also do calculations by hand for particular cases if you assume that there are only a few cards left in the deck.I've never disputed the statistical or theoretical aspects, but if you've ever played at a table where this happens, you'd know it absolutely affects your actual return. As I said in my earlier post, on RARE occassions I've seen a misplay result in the dealer busting, but much more often its improved the house's advantage to have the bad player at the table.
gfk, at some of the land based casinos I frequent, the high roller tables all have signs saying 'No mid-shoe entry'. Those are $100 minimum tables, so I don't really blame them for wanting to keep things status quo. Sometimes when I get bored or run out of my gambling money for the day, I'll go an watch these guys bet (and lose) hundreds & hundreds per hand. All done without a word from the players or dealer, just hand motions. Doesn't seem like as much fun as a low limit table with people cheering each other on and a dealer hoping to bust his own hand. That's the kind of dealer I enjoy tipping.
gfk, at some of the land based casinos I frequent, the high roller tables all have signs saying 'No mid-shoe entry'. Those are $100 minimum tables, so I don't really blame them for wanting to keep things status quo. Sometimes when I get bored or run out of my gambling money for the day, I'll go an watch these guys bet (and lose) hundreds & hundreds per hand. All done without a word from the players or dealer, just hand motions. Doesn't seem like as much fun as a low limit table with people cheering each other on and a dealer hoping to bust his own hand. That's the kind of dealer I enjoy tipping.
