Vegas 7 problem

[happygobrokey]

oops

 

[happygobrokey]

i'd like to use an analogy to give defence to the player's side.

guy A asks guy B for fifty bucks (let's call it the DEPOSIT) to get his wife an anniversary present, and if guy B will clean guy A's house (call it a WR) then when guy A gets paid in 3-5 business days he will pay guy B his DEPOSIT plus a BONUS of 50 bucks for cleaning the house (and giving guy A the benefit of the DEPOSIT that he originally asked for).

now say guy B forgets to dust one object or sweep the back porch or whatever. does guy A have every right to not only void the BONUS offer for non-performance, but also to keep guy B's DEPOSIT because guy B unintentionally failed to complete the WR?

if that's the case i am going to hide dirty dishes behind the couch etc. and screw people of of their $50 at every chance i get, and get the benefit of having 99% of my house cleaned at no cost to me.

as guy B, however, i would be steaming that i just lost my own money after accepting an offer in good faith and being screwed by a technicality that wasn't properly expressed.

i highly doubt it says in plain english on this casino's T&C that any player attempting to w/d before meeting the WR would have their account locked and all funds seized, bonus or legitimate. if this were truly the case, then any player who read them would make damn sure they met the WR before attempting a w/d. but also, as has been mentioned, live chat CSRs will verify your betting history, but this also brings up the issue of being labelled a bonus abuser. in trying to be sure you're complying, you get burned by the catch-all "as we see fit" phrase.

i suppose a remedy to this would be to say in chat: "hello (insert CSR name here)... WITHOUT PREJUDICE, please tell me how much i've wagered so far..."

then it looks like you are being a smart ass to get around being labelled, which itself might be "deemed fit" for account closure/balance seizure.

so it appears that simply not talking to live chat is the best way to avoid being labelled a whore, but then if you miscount your wagers by your own means, then you fall into OP's situation and get labelled/banned anyway.

vicious circle whereby the player is always on the hook for either a screw-up/oversight or for innocently asking about the T&C and their progress toward completion. imo, they should have the most important bits of T&Cs larger and easier to find than the lesser points, i.e. WR, allowed games and repercussions of playing disallowed games, w/d details/restrictions, should all be very visible and clearly worded.

mind, this is the bulk of the T&C itself, but if it's bigger you can't ignore it. think billboards vs. posters on telephone poles. with small type the message isn't as long to scroll through, but it discourages readers from poring over it all and squinting to read the fine print. they blast "$250 FREE!!!!!!!!!! DOWNLOAD NOW!!!!!" in a pop up in our face, but then it's a where's waldo of searching through the T&C for the bits that could lead us into error. am i way off point here?

 

[Rusty]

The oven is on, the pastry rolled and the Crow plucked.

As I have said all along the Casinos T&C's for bonus promotions are generally not unreasonable and to some extent understandable. However it is the Casinos that aggresively promote these bonuses as they are obviously to their benefit so if nothing else it is hypocritical of them to even use the term "bonus abuser" a term, incidentaly, that has never been clearly defined.

Vegas 7 have today gone someway to redeeming their reputation with me as I recieved the following email;

Dear David,

We are writing to you regarding your account at Vegas 7 Casino.

We would like first of all to apologize for all the delays occured and the inconvenience caused. Your account was part of a big investigation started few weeks ago and due to a huge amount of promotion abusing happened.

We would like to inform you that your account has been reactivated now as normal. Also we were unable to process the winnings because the terms and conditions weren't met, however the 50.00 have been reversed to your casino account and are now avilable to play.

We wish you the best of luck at Vegas 7 Casino.

Best regards,

Bruno R.

E-Processing Services ltd.

On behalf of Vegas 7 Casino

I have thanked them for this but also admonished them for what I see as deliberate misinformation (I have moderated my language here) which was what angered me in the first place.

I do not now believe that there was any malicious intent on Vegas 7 part during this dispute but this whole thing could have been handled much, much better.

Again thanks to all that have posted their honest opinions here.

Anyone from within the industry who has monitored this thread is welcome to contact me to discuss any of the issues raised here.

 

[murdock]

Nice to see vegas 7 have returned to their refund promise rusty. I had in writing that my withdrawl was imminent so hopefully it will be paid, though I still have not recieved any contact.

It looks like the problem has came from eprocessing services and not the casinos, hopefully I'll have a positive report soon.

 

[silcnlayc]

The oven is on, the pastry rolled and the Crow plucked.

I told you to add some blueberry now didn't I? But then again.......ahem...you are going to share it with me and take the bigger piece now aren't you because ---->

Also we were unable to process the winnings because the terms and conditions weren't met

Ahem....

 

[diane1964]

Hi,

I have just received an email from the 2 casinos that were refusing winnings - both accounts have been unlocked and all winnings returned

thanks to all that have helped

a result!!!

thanks

Diane

 

[murdock]

nice one Diane

Now my turn please (where is the praying smiley when you need it!)

 

[Rusty]

consider it shared

Also we were unable to process the winnings because the terms and conditions weren't met.

Yes I accept responsibilty for this though it was a genuine mistake. I have never denied this or suggested anything else or that the casino were incorrect to deny my cashout so while I am happy to share a slice I am surely the one less likely to choke on it.
metaphorically of course

I am the most humble man in the World

 

[silcnlayc]

I am surely the one less likely to choke on it.
metaphorically of course

I am the most humble man in the World

ROFLMAO!

 

[wootchris]

Well, I've finished the wagering requirements on MY accounts, and they are still locked, and I STILL have not received an explanation.

I am going to wait till the end of the week and the contact eCogra.

 

[chuchu59]

Well, I've finished the wagering requirements on MY accounts, and they are still locked, and I STILL have not received an explanation.

I am going to wait till the end of the week and the contact eCogra.

Did you PM the rep? Others had their issues resolved so this is the course you should be taking now.

 

[wootchris]

Yup, and got some response about their being an investigation and that the casino would email me within two weeks. It's been longer than that since my account was locked, and almost two weeks since the rep messaged me that.

 

[VegasVIP Lounge]

Explanation and statement from the Vegas VIP Lounge

Firstly, please allow me to apologise for not being able to post sooner, however I was prevented from doing so due to the nature of the investigations currently taking place at the Vegas VIP Lounge Casino Group.

Having reviewed the details of the above cases, the Vegas VIP Lounge has issued the following statement:

Over the past months the Vegas VIP Lounge has identified a number of players exhibiting unusually consistent depositing and playing patterns. In turn the Vegas VIP Lounge has commissioned an investigation that has necessitated extensive analysis of a handful of recently opened casino accounts to assess the scope and implications of the situation. Regretfully, in some cases this has involved the temporary locking of player's accounts.

In instances where the Vegas VIP Lounge has identified accounts exhibiting the aforementioned consistencies in playing and purchasing behaviour, the Vegas VIP Lounge has deemed it necessary to apply its "Exclusion" terms and conditions which clearly state:

"Players can be permanently excluded from the site, at the absolute discretion of Casino management."

The Vegas VIP Lounge emphasizes that it is only in the most exceptional of circumstances that it invokes these terms and conditions to terminate a player's membership.

Alternatively, players who do not exhibit the aforementioned playing and purchasing consistencies, will of course be paid any winnings due.

Players who have been affected by the above investigations will be informed of the outcome of the analysis of their accounts once it has been completed. Alternatively, at their discretion players may contact the individual Vegas VIP Lounge Casinos they hold accounts with via the usual correspondence channels.

The Vegas VIP Lounge apologizes for any inconvenience caused by the investigations detailed within this statement, and hopes that its players understand that such actions have only been resorted to so as to safeguard their security and that of the casino.

For your further information, I am going to be away from my desk until Tuesday 15th August and will therefore be unavailable to answer any private messages sent to me. I sincerely apologise for the inconvenience my absence may cause.

 

[murdock]

So you're saying no terms and conditions have been broke but you're not paying people anyway?

 

[JohnGalt]

Permanent exclusion from the site is not the same thing as refusing to pay legitimate winnings. The former is acceptable, the latter is not. Let's hope VIP Lounge gets their act together.

 

[thechap]

So players have been beating the bonus offer and now vegas affiliates are refusing to pay out, rogue behaviour IMO.

 

[tencardcharlie]

Over the past months the Vegas VIP Lounge has identified a number of players exhibiting unusually consistent depositing and playing patterns.

What does this mean? Multiple account fraud, or simply bonus hunting?

If players have been proven to defraud the casino, then go ahead and take the winnings. But if its just people who have outsmarted the casino by using bonuses, then they must be payed in full. Anything else would be unacceptable.

For your further information, I am going to be away from my desk until Tuesday 15th August and will therefore be unavailable to answer any private messages sent to me.

Then I suggest you get a fill-in on the board because I think a lot of players are keen to know what is going on here.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Quite

That was a woolly reply. Players who deposit and play a consistent method are probably using a guide to one of the bonus offers. A number of boards who casinos are happy to do business with as affiliates or advertisers, will publish a new bonus, and then have an "expert" post a detailed guide to extracting the best +EV from the offer.
This is most likely to deposit the max amount for the max bonus, and play the best games to meet WR. Provided they have not beaten the bonus using the "forbidden" methods in the subclauses, they really should be paid unless they are multiple account openers.

The only thing I can think of is that a large number of players used a deposit method that is in itself an unusual choice for anyone to make. Possibly a flood of UKASH deposits and cheque withdrawals coming from a small part of the UK in a short period of time. UKASH would be very good for money laundering, it is easy to convert "dirty" money into UKASH vouchers, which work like mobile phone top-up vouchers. It is surprising that so many casinos offer it, yet go overboard on "money laundering" when it comes to credit cards.

 

[thechap]

I totally agree with the previous two posters it looks like advantage players have managed to beat them, if the players have been involved in some kind of identity fraud then it's a no brainer and refunding the deposit is too much, they should seize the funds.

However if they are merely advantage players who have met all the wagering conditions then they should be paid. Calling the right to refuse payment winnings term (which in my opinion is a disgusting term and we should campaign to get accredited casinos to axe) should not be tolerated by this forum if the player hasn't technically done anything but play the casino at their own game.

At the end of the day thousands of players systematically play blackjack and video bonuses in an identical manner and those casinos always pay, what's so special about vegas affiliate to refuse advantage players payment?

 

[wootchris]

well

I certainly met the wagering requirements when I cashed out, and I refuse to wait for the third week to get paid.

I've filed a complaint with ECogra.

 

[paul02085]

"Over the past months the Vegas VIP Lounge has identified a number of players exhibiting unusually consistent depositing and playing patterns"

"For your further information, I am going to be away from my desk until Tuesday 15th August and will therefore be unavailable to answer any private messages sent to me."

VegasVIP Lounge, I do not blame you for being unavailable for the next week. (I too would be trying to hide if my company was trying to pull a fast one.)

When you are AVAILABLE again, please tell us exactly what these players did
to get locked out. I have a feeling we already know the answer.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Cats

How about setting a cat or two among the pigeons!

The posters who feel they have been cheated by Vegas 7 could post a blow by blow account of what they did, and why, just don't include personal account info.

For example,

" I signed up for Vegas 7 through www.@@@@.com as a fantastic bonus was offered. In the forum at www.@@@@.com there was posted a neat guide to this casino, which explained the best way to play. This guide was a bit complicated, and not how I would normally play, but I gave it a go and won!
I deposited by using ??????? and determined I had met WR and the T & C by [explain] so requested a withdrawal by ?????

This has not gone smoothly [explain why/how you were shafted here]"


Those of us, myself included, who played there and got paid without incident can see if there could be any reason why payment could have been legitimately withheld based on the assumption that you have signed up with a SINGLE account in your own name and have given correct registration details.

If this shows that winnings are denied because players were just "lucky", while playing a method that gives a +EV outcome for the bonus but that is not achieved on one of the listed excluded games, then they should pay up.
There is a term specifying the games that cannot be used to boost the balance to the deposit plus 2x bonus after meeting WR (or during).

 

[murdock]

I signed up at some of the vegas affiliate casinos directly from the casino websites over a month ago, and played huge stake slots. If I had a big win and was well over the deposit and bonus condition I finished wagering on very low stakes slots. It was my own strategy.

I won roughly 2500 on the vegas poker account after hitting a massive win and this was taken away with the standard "fraud" email posted in this thread. At vegas poker casino I had deposited 100 for the signup bonus and wagered the full wagering requirement on slots.
I cut and pasted my playcheck into excel to check wagering. I either busted or withdrew a small profit at the other casinos.

Deposit method was neteller.

 

[brianrowden]

I had problems with these guys renegging on a promotion about a year back. They offered 10% on all deposits and when I accepted it they basically made me wager my deposit and didnt give a bonus. Didnt bother following it up as 10% wasnt a great deal, but worth noting that they have been untrustworthy before.

 

[Vesuvio]

I had problems with these guys renegging on a promotion about a year back. They offered 10% on all deposits and when I accepted it they basically made me wager my deposit and didnt give a bonus.

I remember that. Anyone who actually took the casinos up on the maximum amount of the offer (something like "Deposit and receive a 10% bonus of up to 1000") was denied the bonus

In instances where the Vegas VIP Lounge has identified accounts exhibiting the aforementioned consistencies in playing and purchasing behaviour, the Vegas VIP Lounge has deemed it necessary to apply its "Exclusion" terms and conditions

That's a bit like excluding anyone who plays basic strategy in BJ from your casino on the basis of "consistent" play. Of course if you're offering a bonus players will deposit the maximum and play optimally to make a profit. Trying to beat the casino is what players do.

This all sounds like another case of RiskSentinel confusing patterns of play that cost the casino money with fraud. Fine, if they identify players they don't want it's their prerogative to exclude those players from future play at the casino, but withholding winnings is only acceptable in a case of proven fraud.