Poker Complaint Unusual suck out patterns

[BBKPoker]

Now when someone starts posting posting percentages,we can begin to see the impossibility of the flops and calls on betfair.
Anyone with the slightest inkling of mathematical probability will realise that the software stinks of a fix.
I have mentioned many possible scenarios that could be happening on these poker sites.
But baring in mind the expected high level of security with betfair,i can only assume that theyre running software which insures a regular flow of players.
By having software that throws up good cards to short stacks after long periods of nothing,the player will naturally play when presented with an opportunity.
This is when the software is preset to strike,the bigger stack will make a raise to try and steal,the short stack has to go all in,gets called with junk,the software strikes with the usual crazy flop.au revoir short stack ,yet again.
Short stack thinks hes been unlucky with his KK being called by 46 off suit(rofl),and joins another tourney to try his luck again.
Unfortunately for betfair,not eveyone playing is a total muppet,and they have been rumbled.
We do have the gamblingcommission.gov.uk/,but i had approached them before,and found them to be as useful as a chocolate fireguard,nuff said on that line of approach.(unless someone would like to throw them some impossible percentages to chew over.:notworthy,bbkpoker)
But i do think that the mounting percentages evidence is now getting to a level where its becoming incriminating evidence.
More soon.The terminator.

Please, by all means present your "incriminating evidence". So far, all you've done in this thread is told some anecdotal bad beat stories. There's plenty of reasons to have issues with poker sites. Absolute poker has had several security loop hole issues. In fact, I actually was the one to initially link it here, search for the thread "absolute poker is absolutely rigged" if you want an example of an explained and well evidenced argument that a site was dealing an unfair game for some of its players, and then compare that to what you posted. "AK lost to 64, so poker is rigged!"... c'mon man.

If you want an actual legitimate reason to dislike betfair, you could complain about their sit n gos incorrectly not refunding people who deregistered or who's tournaments got cancelled. There's a long thread about it here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

or you could read the 40+ page in the bonus issues forum of this site about how they stole what was probably hundreds of thousands of dollars from people who participated in their happy hour promotion.

and as for unfounded or incorrect percentages:

"246,571,776 games 0.172 secs 1,433,556,837 games/sec"

That simulation is extremely accurate. In the above simulation Pokerstove crunched 1/4 billion hand simulations of ako vs 64o to give you an extremely accurate representation of true hand equity. Even without Pokerstove, pretty much any regular tournament or cash player who has studied poker equities would probably be able to give you "rule of thumb" math off the top of their head that two unpaired overcards are only about a 2:1 favorite vs two unpaired undercards.

Complaining about large poker sites RNG distribution is pretty much tin foil hat territory though. Poker sites collect rake regardless of who wins, and as harsh of a reality as it may be, you probably don't win at online poker because you don't play well, not because a site is rigged.

 

[BestHandAgain]

Fair enough comments,i mean if thats what you want to believe.
But i am not commenting alone,i have someone else here who also thinks there is something seriously wrong.
He packed in playing a long time ago,like me,he also started on Full tilt.
We had made contact with other Full tilt players that had described exactly how things would pan out as the weeks/months progressed.
To begin with you have a good run,win money(i was $1750 up),then the bad beats begin and the winnings begin to disappear.
I think i reached something like 27 consecutive tournaments where i was 70/80 % + all in and lost !!!.
The penny dropped,i was being mugged,the company may well make money wether you win or lose,but its not the company im worried about.
Full tilt is actually based in Ireland,run by god knows who,one thing i do know,the service is appalling.
As for betfair,im beginning to see a similar scenario with them.
Try watching a turbo tournament,it is truely unreal,totally off the hook SUCKOUTS that can only say NOT RANDOM.
The poor old short stacks got about as much chance as a wounded sparrow being stalked by a pack of vultures.
How ive actually managed to put this many words together is amazing,because im actually speecless at some of the goings on on that site.
Its so blatantly crooked that Stevie Wonder could see what was happening,ime actually seeing big stacks go all in 3 way pot against shorter stacks with any sh*te,i mean 56 off suit,q9 off suit,etc etc,because they know theyre going win.
If anyone is playing this online poker,i seriously suggest you stop now, the softwares so seriously flawed,or worse,someones at it,that you are wasting your time.
THE COMPANIES ARE THE ONLY ONES MAKING MONEY,IF YOU WANT TO PLAY,I SUGGEST YOU PLAY LIVE TOURNAMENTS,NOT THIS FARCICAL EXCUSE FOR THE GLORIOUS GAME.
I HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN TOLD BY A BETFAIR EMPLOYEE THAT THEY WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO TRUELY REPLICATE A LIVE GAME !!!
DO I NEED TO COMMENT ANY FURTHER?
DONT SAY YOU WERENT WARNED.
I personally no longer play online,i explored the so called best sites for long enough to realise that i would never get an honest game.
I wont be posting again,and i would say good luck to any mug deciding to persevere with it,but lucks obviously not involved.

 

[bigtam1888]

online poker rigged

i actually started to beleive i was bad at poker when i was playing online, i learned my trade online and that is all its gd for, 1st visit to casino after 2 yrs online i found it so easy, i am winning almost every week and the bad beats are few and far between, i suffered the same problem as yourself and have now closed all of my online sites, i do not know how they let it happen but if we did get a program that was random i would come back to save me going into the cold car after a late night poker session pkr seems to be around the best in m y opinion but still the suck outs are just unbeleivalbe and you know you ask why call for 1000s of chips with 52c i am ai with aa flop554 turn 2 gives me another out then 4 river sick another kk v a 10, 10 k 2 flop q turn j river i did raise preflop aa vk7 chip leader with k7 2 pair, and the worst ive seen akvjj fh on flop aak guy goes ai, im laughing waiting on the timer..................call jj turn and river what are the odds? and its always chip leader jj not a bad hand and i dont even blame the guy for going ai, i got to th stage where i didnt know what to play with as i was losing so frequently after going into the race way ahead, and always the 23456 outers get a hit its just so unrealistic

 

[pokeraddict]

Is it just a coincidence that the "Online poker is rigged" crowd never know how to use spacing correctly?

 

[brucewayne]

finally someone agrees with me

ive been playing there for nearly 2 years now,and i was delighted with the changeover to ongame,the original betfair rng system was a joke...the maths and probabilities that should be in the game wher thrown out the window,it was happening so often so much it was impossible to believe.not just me but other players noticed this also and some left because of it..now im not sayin that ongame is much better but the suckouts happen less frequent.i mean u cant be bad beated everytime u play and thats what happened on betfair.everytime i had an overpair or massive hand i was sucked out on,not just now and again but everytime... i play cashgames btw so i was left with a big hole in my pocket,the rng system was definitely tampered with or something was done...variance lol doesnt even come into this thats how bad it was..if i was still playing there today i would be bankrupt by now...i totally agree with besthandagain,he is right...of course i can way up my options and say well what about the number of times you sucked out,well i can tell you this it was far less than happened to me..i also emailed betfair and told them straight out it was rigged,there rng system wasnt right and that it was fraud..i showed them nearly 100 handhistories in such a short space of time nd asked them to explain,ofc they couldnt..so i quit after that and now play ongame which by far different...gl to you all

 

[KasinoKing]

Is it just a coincidence that the "Online poker is rigged" crowd never know how to use spacing correctly?

I guess it is, going by the post which was just made today... a total coincidence!
(Post above this one).

I've started playing poker regularly again over the last couple of months (PKR) and it is true you can see some seriously strange results. Some days it seems I can't win no matter what cards I have, other times I can't lose! But I don't think there's anything wrong with the software, it's just that playing online you get to see WAY more hands/hour than live poker and so the "strange hands" are closer together. Also factor in the "loose" players or "donks" and the chances of these "bad beats" also increases.

The other thing you always seem to get more of online are sore losers who think their A-A should NEVER be beaten by 9-10 suited - get a life! If you don't like it - find another hobby!

KK

 

[Wisenheimer]

While I think your accusation is ridiculous why are you playing on Betfair? They are known rogues. They have stolen millions from casino players and right now there is a massive scandal having to do with missing money from seemingly hundreds of poker players.

I agree! it's way overrated!

 

[Skeptical1]

I agee!!!

If online poker sites are as honest as they claim they are then they should be providing poker games that duplicate the real world games as much as possible. Clearly they are not even close in this regard. On Dimeline I had a incredible suckout run capped by losing with a straight flush. When I complained, Mr Robert Welch, the customer rep kicked me off the site without confiscated by money deposited there!

We should only legalize online gambling if the legislation includes a site funded independent watchdog to oversee that the software used provides a honest game. Any software programmer knows that any software can be manipulated and customized to do the owners bidding. Contact your Senators and Representatives about this. If we depend on the sites to self-regulate then we are the fools they are playing us for.

Verifiable honest should be a reasonable request!

 

[drywallrocker]

Thanks for that,youve actually highlighted something else i was going to mention.
Highly dubious calls when players dont need to make them,an example of which happened to me tonight.
I was in the final 7 tonight(6 make the final table),playing tight as i usually do,and as everyone folded,i went all in against the big blind with my last 6.5 k,now ill admit he had 60k,but he called me with 56 o/s????
Now this doesnt make sense,if he was holding paint or an ace ide say yeh,go for it,but 56 o/s,naturally he hit the 6 and knocked me out.
But what a crazy call,he stood to lose 1k if he folded,why make the call?
Theres only 2 explanations,some players are reading the software and have a good idea they'll win against short stacks in given situations.
Or some players playing have access to the flop patterns and know whats coming.
And when i say flop patterns,they do exist,hence why i make the money the majority of the time.
Its like some hands never ever win,why i dont play them,but yet again i get sucked out by a dubious call at a crucial moment.

I knew a woman she lived in my old building she was working for pokerstars I think she was a shill they come and win not because they are good but thats the way the program is setup,she started on wefare when i first met her she got the job with them all of a sudden she was buying a condo and new furniture.And she was not the sharpest knife in the drawer.And I have had the same thing happen with the cards either they keep feeding you garbage or they set you up and some donkey beats you.

 

[bpb]

I knew a woman she lived in my old building she was working for pokerstars I think she was a shill they come and win not because they are good but thats the way the program is setup,she started on wefare when i first met her she got the job with them all of a sudden she was buying a condo and new furniture.And she was not the sharpest knife in the drawer.And I have had the same thing happen with the cards either they keep feeding you garbage or they set you up and some donkey beats you.

gamblersanonymous.com

 

[textex]

I played on a cake network skin the other day, and on one ocassion i the software showed me that i was the onlyone posting a blind. I emailed the sites support, and they told me that a SB was posted by another player, and that the client was just laggy. I asked them which player posted the SB, but i just got an email saying they had to investigate the matter further. Will be fun to see if its only a laggy client, or if they got some bugs in their software.

When it comes to all these suckouts i dunno. But its clear that the number of bad beats has increased the later years. But is it because more and more fish is coming, calling with f*cked up hands, or is it the poker sites that tries to get money moving so they can make up some more rake, and keep the fish there. There is alot of competition on the online gambling market, so maybey some sites found out they need to up their ad/bonus budget a bit?

 

[zakalwe]

Does it really matter if online poker is rigged?

A Random Number Generator in online poker is a program designed by humans, in an endeavour to simulate and apply the concept of randomness. I don't mean to state the obvious, as I am sure that almost everybody here at Casinomeister knows what it is and also what it does, or is alleged to do.

What really turns my head inside out is the fact that so many of us are seemingly happy to accept the supposed fact that a computer programmer, residing somewhere on planet Earth, has come up with an algorithim that serves to accurately develop and subsequently mirror such an intangible concept as randomness.

I am no computer programmer but I do know the meaning of the word "simulate". That word features pre-dominantly on most online poker websites when they refer to their RNG and the subsequent integrity of such. I'm not sure what it means to you , but to me personally, the use of the word "simulate" screams disclaimer, caveat emptor, enter at your own risk and so on.

So you enter, and you hope for the best, however by doing so you accept that a wager in any form is a coin flip. It can be little else as there are only two outcomes, this being despite the complexity of the processs to which you have commited your funds. Perhaps your not consious of such, however you are consious of the ramifications of your commitment to the process. You will win, or you will lose. You do so willingly. as it was you that placed the wager. Bemoan your loss, rejoice in your gain, however if you want to try and kick the facilitator of the process in the nuts because it does not go your way, it then becomes apparent that you have failed to see the disclaimer. Perhaps you simply ignored it, although at some level you were aware that it did exist.

How can one claim that something is rigged, when that something in itself does not and never did exist in the first place. There can be no doubt that randomness exists. However the software developers at Pokerstars, or any other online poker room for that matter, did not create the concept, they have simply tried their very best to emulate, and implement the variables that they belive will result in the closest possible approximation of the concept.

If you want to gamble on the basis of a human beings interpretation of an intangible concept, and do so with your heart on your sleeve, and perhaps your mortgage payment in your back pocket, I think perhaps you might want to also invest in a steady supply of Kleenex. You have bought into a proposition or perhaps more accurately a business proposition, it is man made and it is fallible, and like any business proposition the individual or corporation proposing would not propose without the prospect of coming out ahead. You are little more than a participant in a process designed to enrich the proposer.

What you collectively fail to realize is that in online poker, one is not playing the man next to or opposite you, nor are you playing the cards, as it is clear that the relative strength or weakness of your hand for the most part appears to have very little to do with the outcome. You are playing againist a complex system designed to take indiscrimate advantage of those that participate.

That indiscrimate advantage is the only truly random aspect of online poker. It is not an algorithim, it is a business based upon one. It will suck up those tears the kleenex leave behind. Indiscrimate advantage enjoys and is enriched by both the abandon that happiness creates in the winner as much as it enjoys and is enriched by the desperation of the loser.

Still, you could always pay the mortgage instead. At least in the end you might own something as a consequence of doing so. Thats a business model too I suppose, however when you sink you stash into that particular vaccum, you at least know in the end if you do it right, you will come out with something of some value. The same cannot be said of Poker, but you already knew that, didn't you.

 

[pokeraddict]

What you collectively fail to realize is that in online poker, one is not playing the man next to or opposite you, nor are you playing the cards, as it is clear that the relative strength or weakness of your hand for the most part appears to have very little to do with the outcome.

If the strength of a hand has little to do with the outcome, then how is a winner determined? Of all the tinfoil hat accusations, this is a first. Your hand does not affect whether you win or not at online poker is an interesting concept. Does the pot get awarded to people that don't have the best hand? Are you accusing the software of deciding who will win the hand before the cards are dealt, then finding ways to make them suckout? This is good stuff.

This thread has given me some great laughs through its life.

BTW, where is Elvis living these days?

 

[zakalwe]

If the strength of a hand has little to do with the outcome, then how is a winner determined? Of all the tinfoil hat accusations, this is a first. Your hand does not affect whether you win or not at online poker is an interesting concept. Does the pot get awarded to people that don't have the best hand? Are you accusing the software of deciding who will win the hand before the cards are dealt, then finding ways to make them suckout? This is good stuff.

This thread has given me some great laughs through its life.

BTW, where is Elvis living these days?

The winner is pre-determined by virtue of the fact that you have invested your money in a venture that makes a promises you randomness. By making that investment you are resting in the knowledge that such has been provided. The software is nothing more than the vehicle in which your currency will travel. What I am trying to say is lost on you.

Your participation in the process puts your funds at risk, regardless of the strength/weakness of your hand. The gentleman that collects your entry fee to this particular show cannot lose as long as he can convince those like you that what you are receiving is a random game. You are taking part in a simulation, the simulation of an underlying concept that to date, to my knowledge, has resisted incapsulation by any method.

Do you truly believe that a software developer/designer can give you a tangible version of randomness?

If you do believe such, perhaps you, can inform me, as to the current whereabouts of the great man. I too would like to live with the fairies, I am led to believe by my little one that they really are very nice and can turn sand into gold.

 

[Keyser]

The winner is pre-determined by virtue of the fact that you have invested your money in a venture that makes a promises you randomness. By making that investment you are resting in the knowledge that such has been provided. The software is nothing more than the vehicle in which your currency will travel. What I am trying to say is lost on you.

Your participation in the process puts your funds at risk, regardless of the strength/weakness of your hand. The gentleman that collects your entry fee to this particular show cannot lose as long as he can convince those like you that what you are receiving is a random game. You are taking part in a simulation, the simulation of an underlying concept that to date, to my knowledge, has resisted incapsulation by any method.

Do you truly believe that a software developer/designer can give you a tangible version of randomness?

If you do believe such, perhaps you, can inform me, as to the current whereabouts of the great man. I too would like to live with the fairies, I am led to believe by my little one that they really are very nice and can turn sand into gold.

Yes, the random number generators used in ANY computer program is not random. If you play Yahtzee on your home computer, the dice rolls aren't truly random either. Does that mean that the Yahtzee program on my iphone is rigged to get me to play longer? Or perhaps it is rigged to get me to buy more apps? Of course not.

The fact that a computer program cannot truly generate a random number in NO way implies that a particular program is rigged. Yes, this applies even for online poker games.

Now I will let you in on a little secret. The shuffle of a deck of cards in a casino or in a home game is NOT random either! In fact, its a good deal less random than a computer random number generator. In fact, card sharps even take advantage of this fact by doing shuffle tracking (Ben Mezrich has a book about an MIT team who used the non-randomness of hand shuffles and advanced tracking techniques to win millions from casinos in blackjack). Does this mean that every poker or casino game everywhere in the world is rigged? Wouldn't brick and mortar casinos have the same motive that online ones do to scam their customers? Can you really trust those "automated shufflers" that take the cards from the felt under the table and then "shuffle" them? Of course, these notions are silly, and so is your notion that online poker games must be rigged.

I suggest that perhaps Occam's Razor may be in order here. It is very easy to use an off the shelf open source random number generator and build a computer poker program around it. It is infinitely more difficult to build a non random number generator that can anticipate the play of random stangers to simulate ... you know what, I can't even begin to describe how this would work. Im not going to even try.

 

[roykeen]

the name is five card suckout

I believe that most of the sites use the same or very similar software because it seems that bubble suckouts will happen everywhere. I suspected shills of some form were being used and have altered my play accordingly. I have folded good cards many times before the flop when my gut told me I was being set up only to see a 7-3 off suit make a straight. This on PS, FT, PP and 888.

 

[bpb]

I believe that most of the sites use the same or very similar software because it seems that bubble suckouts will happen everywhere. I suspected shills of some form were being used and have altered my play accordingly. I have folded good cards many times before the flop when my gut told me I was being set up only to see a 7-3 off suit make a straight. This on PS, FT, PP and 888.

Can't argue with such sound logic.

 

[Nobunaga]

Pokerstars and other sites issues.

Hello all.I've been noticing a lot of suck outs on Pokerstars lately too.Part of it could be my play, part of it is that the software is being improved upon by Pokerstars, part of it is very loose players playing junk.

Pokerstars have since gone with the "stars" to promote those who play on the site more, who qualify enough frequent player points from tournaments and cash games, that could be shills and given pat hands more often, than a bronze star <new> player.

Pokerstars have added the concept of "Booming" your hands, to reply those bad beats and big wins on another website.

With the purchase of Full Tilt Poker, as well as Pokerstars tweaking their program over the years, I think it's time for MaxD and Bryan to PAB Pokerstars and see what's up with their current software and have it checked over by a mathematician, who understands how poker games work, and see if the hands, player's play, player's status, does come into play and that cheating is happening, either by players who are working with Pokerstars, or who are independent from Pokerstars.

Full Tilt Poker had crooks involved in their website, same with Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet.

It's time that us Pokerstars players who feel that we are playing well enough to deserve better results, that the mathematics of the software is flawed, pony up the money for the PAB and experts needed to look into it.

Some people are gambling on the odds of the poker table, that they have the winning hand that can result from the hand being dealt <there has to be a winning hand or a split pot hand involved>.

It's time to compare what makes one websites poker game as rogue and what makes Pokerstars still legit.

Nobunaga

 

[Nifty29]

I believe that most of the sites use the same or very similar software because it seems that bubble suckouts will happen everywhere. I suspected shills of some form were being used and have altered my play accordingly. I have folded good cards many times before the flop when my gut told me I was being set up only to see a 7-3 off suit make a straight. This on PS, FT, PP and 888.

And yet you continue to play......

 

[bpb]

Do people realize that every hand history of every hand ever dealt on the site is available ... that thousands of people use said data every day in order to get an edge on their opposition ... yet nobody has produced a single shred of evidence that the deal on Pokerstars is anything but random.

Conspiracy theories are more fun though, I guess.

 

[Nobunaga]

Pokerstars and other sites issues.

BPB.People from Canada, EU and non-EU European countries are looking into a class action lawsuit against Pokerstars.Their software, frequent player points, have changed so much since the Americans were banned from playing for money, that this movement is gaining strength.

Being Chrome star myself, I've had my share of really bad beats, 1 and 2 out hits, and I can only blame so much of it on my play for making a wrong call.

I think it's time that Max D and Bryan review Pokerstars again for accredited status, due to the fact that the software keeps getting changed and their purchase of a rogue company in Full Tilt Poker.

It would be nice for Max D and Bryan, to walk me through a properly done PAB, the financial cost to do one, and get whatever documents needed to review Pokerstars practices towards its customer base.

Customer service could be great on Pokerstars, but a rogue software developer could be the issue.Many pros have quit Pokerstars to gamble on physical tables at the casino, and for physical tournaments to avoid those electronic bad beats.

The dealers are expected in a physical casino to not stack the deck to help a good customer or known pro.Slight of hand actions still happen in the casinos world wide.

Nobunaga

 

[bpb]

Being Chrome star myself, I've had my share of really bad beats, 1 and 2 out hits, and I can only blame so much of it on my play for making a wrong call.

You should probably blame it on your lack of understanding of basic probability.

 

[Mozaik]

In my opinion the concerns by many online poker players are legit. I've played at many pokersites in the past, including: PokerStars, Full Tilt Poker and Party Poker. On all pokersites I ran significant amount of money under EV on a big sample size. I've witness all sickening patterns players be mentioning. Eventually I've pretty much stopped playing online poker a couple years ago.

If you look at the player reviews at a site such like pokerscout.com/AllReviews.aspx?id=1, you will see that most of these sites are rated very poorly by players and basically serve as a rake generating machine. If you read through the experiences you will notice they ain't the product of just sole losers, but also people who actually are very concerned about the state of online poker. All I have to do to prevent me from playing is read their experiences to know things have not changed at all.

My advice: Stick to live poker where u know u get the real deal

 

[Roller_Jamie]

One of the odd situations in poker is that the better you play, the more bad beats you will suffer. If you are being selective with your hands and generally only getting into big all in spots with the best hand you will either win as expected, or take a beat when the wrong card pops up on the turn/river.

Obviously it is still painful when this happens in a particularly big pot or at a crucial stage in a tournament, but in the long run you want to keep putting yourself in positions where bad beats can happen. As long as you're playing within your means of course and are unlikely to go broke!

If the sites were really rigged towards the poor hands then you could just switch your strategy and start getting it in bad all the time. I wouldn't fancy trialling that theory for too long though.

 

[Journeyman]

oh, please guys. this -rig- discussion is already going on since the start of online poker.
please read about this at the bigger pokerforums, and don´t come here with silly statements about your bad beats blablabla and then casinomeister has to review the accredited status of i.e. Pokerstars.