Poker Complaint Unusual suck out patterns

BestHandAgain

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Jan 19, 2011
Location
London
I have been playing Betfair poker for a number of years,regularly playing 3 or 4 tournaments of texas no limit holdem a day.
I regularly make the money and have won a small tournament,but find myself questioning the fairness and integrity of the software.
Two things regarding this have been pointed out recently,first it is impossible to have a random generator,and second,a computer software programmer had discovered at least one of the sites was not playing all the possible combinations,which would explain some of these nigh impossible suck outs.
I also watch some of the tournaments and see the same thing happening to other players.
A classic example happened to me tonight,im on the big blind(1600),everyone folds,the big stack goes all in,i call with AA,last 6400 chips,he turns over 34,flops j56,turns a 7,rivers a 10,big stack hits the straight.
THis is not an isolated example,,in fact i would say 99% of the times im in that situation,i lose,and so do others.
And if by some miracle you get past that stage,you get offered decent starting cards the very next hand to tempt you to play,and get sucked out there.
Another classic example,short stack AA,big stack calls with A7,4 of the same suit flop to hit the big stacks ace,giving him the flush.
Now anyone knowing percentages,knows this is not possible,it just doesnt way up.
I challenge anyone to watch betfair and see how the short stacks get bad beated almost every time and get sucked out,on some occasions 2 getting blown out.
This particularly applying when the bubble is in sight.
The hard thing to swallow here,is the ridiculous cards you get called with by the big stack,almost like they know they cant lose.
So without suggesting any corrupt activity on behalf of the poker room,something is obviously not right and needs looking into.
Good starting hands simply cannot get beaten on such a regular basis just because your on the short stack,impossible.
 

rockycatt

meistercatt
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Location
Boston
Its going on every were tilt ,stars you name it , how in the world does a guy call a all in with a ridiculous hand as you described :confused:
 

BestHandAgain

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London
Exactly,i played tilt and after winning $1750,i must have experienced bad beats like this on over 20 consecutive occasions.
I left Tilt winning $750,simply had enough,im not an idiot,i know the odds,and i know if you 80% to win hands and get sucked out that many times consecutively,then you know somethings up.
As i speak,ive been shafted again tonight,best hand yet again,all in qq,admittedly i get called by the bigger stacks jj,naturally he hits the full house.
Worst hand wins almost every single time for the big stack,its totally unreal.
I was surprised to see betfairs casino on the dodgepot list,i thought they were a well run outfit.
But i wouldnt be at all surprised to see their poker room appear on places not to play very soon.
Theres hardly any skill at all involved,its suck out after suck out,its almost like the softwares preset to suck out short stacks at certain stages so the tournament doesnt go on to long.
Its very very fishy,and somethings seriously flawed with their software,im getting the exact same scenarios every day.
You may say if thats happening,why do you call,you must know whats coming?that is true,im almost expecting it,but what can you do.
I made a 1600 raise,the guy went all in,i had to call for my last 3400 chips in a heads up.
The worst thing is i make the right call more than 90% of the time,but get sucked out every time.
 

BestHandAgain

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Jan 19, 2011
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London
Just to continue the thread of incredible flops and suck outs.
Betfair texas nlh again,3 hearts flopped,a,q and 4,4 players betting in to the pot,turns 6d,rivers jc,all 4 go all in.
All four players show a heart flush!!!!!!!has anyone ever seen this on a 10 seater table?
 

johnsteed

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Apr 24, 2005
Location
N/A
***



BetFair (IMO) seems to be a tough place to make any regular profit. I didn't have much luck at Bet365 either. Cake Poker is dried up (which is too bad as I'm about 2 years too late). I never really cared much for any of the PrimaPoker sites, and I likely never will. Really, the 2 best options are FullTilt and PokerStars. While I really like both of these sites, I can't disagree that the cards have some pretty funky outcomes (which is pretty much true at EVERY poker site out there).



I pretty much gave up playing NLHE because:


a) there are too many knowledgeable players at every stake (too many training sites/books out there)


b) there are too many donks who get lucky


c) and there's not much in between


d) despite only playing with a quality starting hand (solid hand range), all too often I'm forced to play All-In shoves at any stage/level of any MTT or S&G tournament (where I get sucked-out on all too often)



So, I switched to PLO Hi/Lo and Omaha Hi/Lo (S&G and MTT), which is oh-so-much better. The field is generally not as knowledgeable, even the better players tend to play loose hand ranges (which they shouldn't be playing with), and I find that it's easier to get control of the table in certain spots. Most importantly, understanding when to not play hands (generally nothing within the first 15-20 minutes unless it's something like A-A-K-2), being ultra patient (knowing how to play the short stack... generally shoving with 3 BBs when a semi-quality hand comes), not 'just' patient, but twice as patient as one thinks one needs to be, and most importantly knowing how much to bet at every stage of a tournament, should help anyone become a profit player long-term.



My advice (not that anyone was asking for it) is to play the 'other' poker games out there (eg. Omaha, 2-7, Razz, Badugi, 7-card stud, etc.), get really good at them, study them to death, and provided that you're disciplined enough, start making a profit. Despite what tons of people say, I think there are much softer games out there than NLHE. I don't recommend 'turbo' anymore either, although I don't mind it so much in heads up play.



In the future, I suppose I'll play the larger field NLHE tournaments, but I'm pretty much done grinding all of the S&G (6/9/18/27/45 seat tournaments), DoN (never easy), and ultra-boring HU NLHE games. The 180/$2 are still relatively fun though.



***



If I could give an example of questionable play, I'd think back to a 180-seat MTT ($2) I was playing at PS several months ago. The tournament was down to roughly 30 players, and I was 4th in chips, the blinds were relatively high, and I pushed with A-A. The player in the small blind calls my All-In, and he/she had a 3-7 o/s (?!!), and of course, flopped a straight.



Those things happen of course, but this person was 3rd in tournament chips, and likely didn't get there by playing with such a crappy range of hands. So why get that deep into a tournament (probably at the 1 hour 20 minute mark by that point), and call with 3-7 o/s? Some people might have to go somewhere, but at least they'd wait for an ace or something... not 3-7 o/s. Why call a shove in that spot?



***
 

BestHandAgain

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Jan 19, 2011
Location
London
Thanks for that,youve actually highlighted something else i was going to mention.
Highly dubious calls when players dont need to make them,an example of which happened to me tonight.
I was in the final 7 tonight(6 make the final table),playing tight as i usually do,and as everyone folded,i went all in against the big blind with my last 6.5 k,now ill admit he had 60k,but he called me with 56 o/s????
Now this doesnt make sense,if he was holding paint or an ace ide say yeh,go for it,but 56 o/s,naturally he hit the 6 and knocked me out.
But what a crazy call,he stood to lose 1k if he folded,why make the call?
Theres only 2 explanations,some players are reading the software and have a good idea they'll win against short stacks in given situations.
Or some players playing have access to the flop patterns and know whats coming.
And when i say flop patterns,they do exist,hence why i make the money the majority of the time.
Its like some hands never ever win,why i dont play them,but yet again i get sucked out by a dubious call at a crucial moment.:what:
 

rockycatt

meistercatt
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Location
Boston
ok they publish 98,000 players or so playing live ;) so how is it that im always siting with a usual same group of players in cash games [refraining from naming
poker room ]

do all these players just play mtt tourneys if so ?? how many are bots

there ot to be a fool Prof way to spot a bot from the players side of the screen

i think that theres a incredible amount of bots in the mtt field and thats the reason for weird poker play
 

rockycatt

meistercatt
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Location
Boston
to late to edit but
i think if we play in organized password protected turney's like railbirds
or any other forum sponserd ones it should at least eliminate suspicious
players
 

jstrike

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Joined
Nov 16, 2010
Location
Europe
Bad beats happen in real life all the time, though. I mean, no matter where I play, I have at least one or two in a night, and see a bunch more than that happen right in front of me. Talking about online, it's definitely possible there are people out there who know what cards are coming out, but they'd have to be working with the casino to know that.

If you take all the bad beats you see online in a session, and subtract the number you see in a session at a real casino, I'd guess there's not that much difference. And what there is, you can probably chalk up to stupid players who don't have much experience, try and bluff a lot online, and end up hitting a few big scores. It's just that it's not transparent, so it's easier to say they probably cheated.

My guess is there's no cheating on the major sites like FT, but who knows.
 

pokeraddict

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Location
Las Vegas
While I think your accusation is ridiculous why are you playing on Betfair? They are known rogues. They have stolen millions from casino players and right now there is a massive scandal having to do with missing money from seemingly hundreds of poker players.
 

BestHandAgain

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London
OK,firstly to pokeraddict,i really shouldnt make accusations,but when you play every day like i do,i see things happening that shouldnt be,
you can say yes,there is the idiot element.
But take tonights 15k rebuy,AA raises 6 times the blind,small stack calls with 33,72 suited calls.
Flops k29,different suits,no flush draw for 27 suited.
AA goes all in,small stacked 33 calls,27 suited CALLS.
Turns a 7,rivers a 5.
27 suited wins after making two very dubious calls,was this idiot play or someone in the know?,you decide.
I put a red marker against 27's name with a few notes,i was immediately moved to another table!!!!suspicious?,you decide.
Whilst accepting we do have idiots that get lucky,when these player build up large stacks,i start getting highly suspicious.
As regards calling large raises with bad starting cards,well i have done it myself,but not 27 in a 3 way pot,or for that matter the 34 that sucked me out the other day.
Accepting poker is not a rational game(anything can happen and regularly does),im finding it extremely hard to stomach being called by poor cards and getting sucked out.
As regards bots,people do use them,i know a player that uses one on tilt.
Bots merely way up the percentages a lot quicker than you can,but are useful on the muppet mtt's.
The reason i left tilt was not only because of consistently being turned over when the odds were in my favour,the customer service was absolutely appalling.
After research i discovered they are based on some trading estate somewhere in Ireland,cowboys would be an apt description regarding staff working for this company.
You cannot phone them(no number available to the public),and if you e-mail them,it sometimes takes weeks to get a response.
But without veering to far away from things,its the dodgy calls with dodgy cards,and the dodgy flops i would like to concentrate on.:confused:
More posts to arrive here soon.:D
 

BestHandAgain

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Location
London
More evidence in tonights 15k nlh rebuy of unusual suck outs.
Playing in the money positions,approximately 140 left,small stacks all in,got about half the larger stacks chips.
Small stack hits a pair,largers stacks beat,but his ace hits 4 consecutive spades to hit a flush.
Then the exact same scenario happens the very next hand,and if not to make things worse,i get beat a few hands later on the same table with 4 diamonds to the other guys ace to knock me out.
Now would someone like to tell me what the odds are of the same knockout scenario happening 3 times on the same table within the space of 7/8 hands?
Proof of fixed software to take short stacks out at certain stages?,you decide.
 

pokeraddict

Webmaster
Joined
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Location
Las Vegas
I think it is selective memory. You never remember the times you hit, only when you run bad. Here is another example.

I'm playing video blackjack clearing a slot bonus at a casino on the strip. The dealer bust or loses with 17 8 hands in a row. On the 9th hand the dealer makes a 7 card 21 when several of us had big starting hands. One of the players, who had been there for the entire streak, said "That's unreal, there is no way this is a fair game". Did he already forget the previous 8 hands?

No poker room has ever been caught rigging their RNG to make help poor players. They have altered their rake contribution formulas and/or their promos but never the cards.

About 10 years ago, in the infancy of online poker, Planet Poker, the first online poker room, had their RNG cracked. AP/UB had insider cheats and people have had their accounts hacked on insecure wireless networks. What you are accusing of has never happened and believe me there are enough poker detectives out there that would have caught it just as they caught AP/UB and Cake Poker.
 

BestHandAgain

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London
Selective memory,thats a good one,lol.
Yet another example of dodgy play,big stack has about 80k,small stack 40k,big stack checks,small stack raises 7k with kq(ok cards in a heads up),big stack reraises 40k with 79 suited,small stacks all in.
Flop kq4,turns j,you got it,rivers a 10.
Big stack after making a ridiculous call,gets paid off.:eek:
This hand was played in the final 12 of 600 odd starters.
Its quite unreal how im seeing these suck outs at crucial moments,EVERY DAY IN EVERY TOURNAMENT.:confused:
This is by no means selective memory,do you by any chance work for one of the poker rooms pokeraddict,because when i keep posting evidence of dodgy play rewarded with dodgy flops and receive negative comments like yours,it kind of gets me thinking.:what:
To keep seeing the crazy suck outs tourney after tourney,day after day,can only mean one thing,it is NOT RANDOM,which means if your playing certain cards at certain stages,YOU CANNOT WIN,which in turn means the software is not offering everyone a fair chance of winning ?,you decide.
There is a saying"where theres money theres corruption",many sports have been faced with corruption,football,cricket,horse racing,its not going to be story of the decade if online poker was found to be in the same boat.
Lets be realistic here,if all the sheep want to be sucked in to this fantasy world that the sky is blue and everything is wonderful,then let them,thats their prerogative.
But in reality,anyone from from outside the pen knows this not to be true,it is an extremely corrupt world we live in,politicians lying and stealing off the very people they are meant to serve,just being one example(dont think i need to go into details on that one).
So knowing odds and percentages as i do,i would stake my life on it that something is unfair regarding betfairs(and others) poker software.
The persistant incredible suck outs and dodgepot calls are just not mathematically possible.
 

pokeraddict

Webmaster
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Location
Las Vegas
There is no reason for me to reply to someone showing such an inability to understand basic poker so I won't anymore. You probably need to think about if you have the bankroll and patience to play poker. If you tilt over every little bad beat and drawout and ignore all of the times hands hold up or win to folds then you will never be successful.

Ongame, with all of their issues (BWIN's rogue affiliate terms, Betfair's shadiness etc) has never once been questioned as offering a shady game and you have not done anything to prove that they are. If you are so convinced that Ongame is a rigged network why are you playing there?

I don't usually post in OMG poker is rigged threads but this is really bad. Even though Betfair is rogued and BWIN's affiliate program is shady it doesn't meean the cards on Ongame are rigged. If you think they are play somewhere else or probably even better you should just stop playing at all.
 

BestHandAgain

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There is no reason for me to reply
Well i think you just did,and if this thread is so stupid,why answer?
I like poker,and if my assumptions are right,im going to provide everyone with the relevant information regarding the unusual suck outs im seeing.
Like i said,percentages are just not waying up here,so ill keep posting and see what others think.
If im wrong im wrong,but its not that im losing money,ive won over $300 for small buy ins in the last 2/3 days.
Im just pointing out what i think im seeing,im not shit stirring,or running any site down in particular,after all ive played and won cash on tilt(left),and played other sites,and i see the same thing everywhere.
The only reason im on betfair is i thought they were the easiest to contact if there was any problems(tilt operating from another planet i think).
But as easy to contact as they are,as a live player,i cant agree with the quite unreal flops and calls on a regular basis.:eek2:
Alarm bells ring when i see some of the things happening on this and other sites.:eek:
 

newjam

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Vienna
My suspicion is that the poker software operates in the same way as all online gaming i.e. slots, bj etc. in that it's random up to a point, that being the rtp is spread around. If you have a big win you will be sucked out till your rtp level is whatever the system allows. I'd like to believe it was truly random but my experience tells me otherwise. I am a winning player, but that's because I play mostly freerolls and the occasional value buy-in tourny.
 

BestHandAgain

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Of the hook suck outs continue.
I think approaching the bubble,and having best hand and being sucked out,is running at about 85% +.
Todays was just incredible,approximately 200 left,120 cash places,small blind,QQ,all in 2k+,big blind(6k)calls with 10/7 suited,flops k3a(no flush draw)turn/river 7 7 !!!!!!:eek2::eek:
Absolutely unreal,calls with crap,gets rewarded,everyones a winner,call on the big stack approaching the money,you win,doesnt matter what you call with.
Betfair,get it sorted,totally unacceptable,my figures are right,the softwares not playing random.:machinegu
Sorry,you can say what you want,but its fixed to suck out short stacks,why would anyone risk 2k + on 10/7 suited?
Suspicious calls,unbelievable suck outs.
Im not having it,and will continue to post until its sorted.:(
 

BestHandAgain

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Anyone reading this can of cause claim that 7 on the turn &river had as much right to be flopped as any other other card.
But the point being made is that the QQ was 93.43% after the flop,and 88.64% after the turn.
Yet 10/7 suited brings off an amazing suck out,yet again,with a 7 on the river.
Now these suck outs are happening with such regularity against the short stack,approaching the bubble and just into the money,that can only bring two conclusions.
Someones at it,or the softwares configured to shorten tournaments(better for the company,higher profit margins).
Now i personally would plump for the latter,shortening tournaments with outrageous suck outs means players jumping into the next tournament,which means a regular flow of players.
Good thinking by the software designers if true,but youve been rumbled,and if the company doesnt realise whats going on,then they should.
Many of the players(particularly the smaller tournies)havent a clue about percentages,so when theyre bad beated they dont understand whats happening.
I may have mentioned on an earlier post that the tournaments being shortened had been discovered by some software programmers on some sites,by way of the software not playing all possible combinations,so many hands could not win.:eek2:
If true,the software is corrupt and the companies are committing fraud.
Something to bare in mind for players and companies,im certain we are going to hear more about this in future as online gaming companies become better regulated and their software tested in order to test if it truely is random.
More bad suck out reports coming soon.
 

BestHandAgain

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London
Another amazing suckout of 2 short stacks
Stack A,3.2k stack b 16k stack c 6.5k
stack A raises 1.2 k with KK,stack b calls with 22,stack C calls with 88.
Flop 268,stack C hits trips and understandably goes all in,stack A calls,stack B also hits trips and calls.
Turn a 10 river a 2,the big stack hits quads and puts the 2 shorter stacks out.
Yet again giving evidence to the short stacks suck out nearing the bubble theory.
How many more examples are needed before players realise its not random,the software is fixed to maximize profits for the company.
There can be absolutely no doubt whatsoever that this is going on.
Playing 3 to 4 tournies a day,i see it every tournament,NOT RANDOM.
Wake up and smell the coffee.
 

BestHandAgain

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London
The suck outs now are so blatant,its embaressing for the companies running the software.
What the hells going on here,so obvious the cards arent random during tournies,Stevie wonder could see whats going on.
You'll like these,player A(big stack)small blind,6k+,bluff raises 3 times the big blind(360) with 46 off suit,player B,2.5 k all in with ak,player A calls.
Flop 578,you got it,the crazy call hits a straight !!!!:confused::eek2:(that was nearing the bubble by the way)
Next example,blinds 120,Big stack(9k+) raises to 240 with 10/10,player B calls with a6,(4 players left for a $108 ticket)
Flop 667,big stack raises 400,player b calls turns an 8,big stack 700,player b all in,big stack calls,:rolleyes:,you got it,river a 9.
BIG STACK SUCK OUT STRIKES AGAIN.
And you know whats suspicious about the regularity of the amazing calls and big stack suck outs?,the big stack nearly always hits a full set,flush,straight,full house,with a miracle river card.
Keep it up betfair,the evidence mounting against you.
Random generator my a*se.
 

BBKPoker

halfway to busto
PABrogue3
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Edinburgh, Seattle, Vancouver BC, Auckland
You'll like these,player A(big stack)small blind,6k+,bluff raises 3 times the big blind(360) with 46 off suit,player B,2.5 k all in with ak,player A calls.
Flop 578


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

246,571,776 games 0.172 secs 1,433,556,837 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.565% 36.33% 00.23% 89582076 577476.00 { 64o }
Hand 1: 63.435% 63.20% 00.23% 155834748 577476.00 { AKo }

OMG, can't believe a hand happened where someone who will win over 1 in 3 times ACTUALLY WON?

UNPOSSIBLE!!! JOKE SITES!! RIGGED MUST BE THE ONLY EXPLANATION 1 IN 3 NEVAR HAPPENZ
 

BestHandAgain

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Jan 19, 2011
Location
London
Now when someone starts posting posting percentages,we can begin to see the impossibility of the flops and calls on betfair.
Anyone with the slightest inkling of mathematical probability will realise that the software stinks of a fix.
I have mentioned many possible scenarios that could be happening on these poker sites.
But baring in mind the expected high level of security with betfair,i can only assume that theyre running software which insures a regular flow of players.
By having software that throws up good cards to short stacks after long periods of nothing,the player will naturally play when presented with an opportunity.
This is when the software is preset to strike,the bigger stack will make a raise to try and steal,the short stack has to go all in,gets called with junk,the software strikes with the usual crazy flop.au revoir short stack ,yet again.
Short stack thinks hes been unlucky with his KK being called by 46 off suit(rofl),and joins another tourney to try his luck again.
Unfortunately for betfair,not eveyone playing is a total muppet,and they have been rumbled.
We do have the gamblingcommission.gov.uk/,but i had approached them before,and found them to be as useful as a chocolate fireguard,nuff said on that line of approach.(unless someone would like to throw them some impossible percentages to chew over.:notworthy,bbkpoker)
But i do think that the mounting percentages evidence is now getting to a level where its becoming incriminating evidence.
More soon.The terminator.:D
 

BestHandAgain

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Jan 19, 2011
Location
London
:notworthy,sarcarstic comments from idiots that pull ludicrous unfounded percentage calls out of the hat for no apparent reason:notworthy are treated with the contempt they deserve;)i dont think 1 in 3 is exactly whats happening here:lolsign:betfair are:xxx,fact
 
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