Texas Holdem shootout

[KasinoKing]

Somebody stop me - my sides are really staring to ache now!
.

 

[MPB]

It involves cards so it is a card game. The cards may or may not be dealt fairly. Could you show me your calculations?

They are right in the my first response here in this thread.
Anyway, a card game not only involves that are card-like looking pixels on the screen, but also that it behaves like you would expect from a real, live dealt card game.
And as discussed before and in other threads also and it even seems that the rules might be understood in a way so that it's in complete compliance with the game rules if the bots know the outcome of every hand before the cards are even dealt. And this has nothing to do with cards being dealt random or not.
Anyway I strongly dislike it. A game like this is trying to fool the player into believing he is playing a simple card game, but the outcome is very different from what you would expect from a card game. This kind of "tweaking" is very easy in an OC and impossible in a B&M.
If an OC abuses this "advantage" to fool the player I find this a very shady business.

 

[steadman]

I didn't pick up on the "best outcome" line in the instructions. Taking into account that it seems that the bots know the community cards in advance now makes more sense to me and explains the incredible outdraws I repeatedly got when I played also. I stopped playing at one of the casinos that deal this game because of my last experience playing this game.

However, how incredibly unethical. Sure it's there in the instructions but how on earth can you call a game "Texas Holdem" when it is violating such a basic rule. At the very least be more honest in the instructions if this is the case. SAY UP FRONT that the bots know the community cards in advance, or even better, retitle the game - "Texas Holdem Cheating" or "Dishonest Texas Holdem" or something - isn't that what is basically going on when a player knows the community cards up front? If this game were played in a real world casino there is no way people would play it as soon as the dealer started peeking at the cards.

Do the management honestly think this is an appropriate game ? Isn't it just a lowest-common denominator attempt cash in on the current poker boom?

 

[happygobrokey]

the folding bot's cards should be revealed after the hand so we can see just how much the game lets the bots know. if AK folded and J3 stayed and some hooks caught the flop, then it's obvious.

but being forced to call you, the game gives you half a chance. if the playing bot has AQ, you can still win with AK most times.

i didn't notice the game revealing CRAP cards like 36 that made a straight or two pair. if this were the case i would be inclined to believe the bots and dealer collaborate. but if the playing bot holds T3, it's still possible the other bot had 82. so let's attempt to corroborate this with screens of "any two" or "gus hands" that you would assume the folded bot would actually have had a better starting hand if the cards to come were not known and therefore were played with the end result already figured into the choice.

some of these hypotheses could be tested live. deal hole cards to the player and two bot friends. let the player act and then let the bots view each other's hand and the community cards in advance. the better hand then must call the player down throughout the rest of the hand. log these results, and also try it without showing the board to the bots in advance. if bot behaviours are any more complicated (ie bot one plays with any pockets or AK/AQ/suited paints regardless, and bot two plays only when bot one does not play), then it's tougher to replicate, but if we believe they know it all ahead of time and the better final hand always plays, then you could easily mimic this in real life trials and perhaps through a computer sim if you were really good at that sort of thing. and if we managed to make a sim for the game we could devise a basic strategy and find the house edge.

i agree it seems the bots are playing with special knowledge, but i do not believe the game is unbeatable. it's a hindrance to face "advantage players" who are colluding/peeking, but if you make the nuts as the player, you will win. unless the dealer has rigged all the cards so the bots usually win, but i don't believe this to be so. i've outkickered the bot hand, or hit my second pair on the river to win. so imo the deck is not stacked, just that both bots are teaming up on you and the house turns a blind eye while its bot shills peek at the cards to come. quite the handicap, but perhaps a concrete play strategy can minimize the marginal and tilty all-ins and optimize the return given how we know the game plays. can it really play much worse than any other high-edge game like C.stud or 00 roulette?

 

[MPB]

The testing you describe can be done within 30 seconds using pokerstove. If the bots know the board in advance and fold the losing hand, the outcome is exactly the same as if both called. Except of course that you can win only money from one bot even though you are playing against two, giving the palyer a really massive disadvantage.
Developing an optimal strategy for this case isn't trivial, since the rules seem to imply that the bots only know the board in advance under certain conditions.
As far as I understand it, you cannot really know if these condtions apply, since they might depend on the bots hole cards, which are unknown to the player. To derive a strategy from this, you would have to do some calculations what the players EV would be in both cases and how often either case will come up.

 

[Zoozie]

I played Texas Holdem shootout for about 1 hour and managed to play even.

From a logic perspective you should have no double the bots are colluding. Since the bots can not bet/raise, there is no position disadvantage for the player. And during the turn (no bets at river) the player can still bet, which would give him an advantage since the bot does not have this options. The player also have more betting options preflop. On top of this half the times there is additional ante! (and no rake...). And the all in move(8BB) is powerfull since you know one of the bots has to call.

But it is obvious the bots knows the flop+river+turn and if one of the bots can win over the player it will be that bot playing. Or it is not even that random.

I came to this conclusion by noting how often the playing bot made 1+ pair, which was higher than what you would expect.

However the player has the betting advantage as I described, so the payout
could still be the 100% claimed. Also it strikes me that these simple rules
rules exactly should give 100% payout. This could be a clue to figuring out what algorithms are used for the bots.

Zoozie

 

[happygobrokey]

thanks for taking it seriously zooz, because

ZOMG this game is rigged it isn't even cards, every casino using the game is a cheating thief! they might as well be running "guess how many fingers?" like in that movie MAFIA!

 

[Zoozie]

thanks for taking it seriously zooz

1 hour and not using serious statistics is not a definitive proof of anything. But I have played online poker for 4 years and it did not
feel right. I did 40+ all ins and in almost all of them the bot was the underdog. A typical situation was mine Ax vs. two middle cards. Here I should
win about 60%. I won less than half the times. (If I won half the time, I would still be an overall winner due to the additional ante from the other bot)

During online poker I have also experienced some really freaky sessions, but I only did one session on "Texas Holdem Shootout" and it was a little odd.
I did manage to play even though. If anyone has the time a simple way to test it would be:

After each games. Use www.twodimes.net and type in the start hands. Write down who won and the percentages on each player.

Then publish the list here (which should contain at least 50 games).

Zoozie

 

[happygobrokey]

...it did not
feel right. I did 40+ all ins and in almost all of them the bot was the underdog. A typical situation was mine Ax vs. two middle cards. Here I should
win about 60%. I won less than half the times. (If I won half the time, I would still be an overall winner due to the additional ante from the other bot)...

so this indicates that the bots are colluding and have advance knowledge. because your ace high needs to hold up against two hands (even though only one plays, the better hand stays in) which is why it does not win to expectation. my crudest calculation is that you will win .6 vs any hand so to have a hand that beats both bots would be .6(.6)=.36 of the time. is that right?

i hope this is merely that bots know all the cards, because if the deck is rigged then that's just beyond reproach.

 

[Rusty]

I made a holdem type game that I would have enjoyed playing in Casinos so reading this thread gave me the idea to chuck it into the meisters slot ideas thread.
It could play randomly without any sneaky rules and still take you to the cleaners but in a much more enjoyable way

 

[dealer wins]

I made a holdem type game that I would have enjoyed playing in Casinos so reading this thread gave me the idea to chuck it into the meisters slot ideas thread.
It could play randomly without any sneaky rules and still take you to the cleaners but in a much more enjoyable way

I was thinking that the casinos must be able to come up with a profitable texas holdem game without resorting to the house players having prior knowledge of the community cards.

Introducing any game where cards not dealt yet are already known by the house player(s), is a blindly stupid move by an online casino given its already hard to actually believe the games are random in the first place.

This game just adds fuel to the "its all rigged anyway" arguement.

And apart from that, I reckon not many players will find it enjoyable to be outdrawn time and time again by 2 outers, and will be put off playing ANY game in that casino costing them business.

Rusty maybe you should patient your game and licence it to the casinos?

 

[Rusty]

I have a full suite of original Casino games and slots but but there must be a reason that the main software suppliers use so little imagination and effort when introducing new games.
I agree with you completely that the player finding themselves outdrawn most of the time is a dumb idea of how to gain a house edge.
It can be done in a much more subtle manner while maintaining the games integrity.
Very amateurish IMO

 

[vinylweatherman]

I have a full suite of original Casino games and slots but but there must be a reason that the main software suppliers use so little imagination and effort when introducing new games.
I agree with you completely that the player finding themselves outdrawn most of the time is a dumb idea of how to gain a house edge.
It can be done in a much more subtle manner while maintaining the games integrity.
Very amateurish IMO

Unfortunately, the big providers have their own teams, and taking outside ideas would mean paying royalties.
So long as none of the competition out innovate them, they have no reason to change.
Other than writing your own casino software to accommodate your games, you will need a lucky break with one or more of the movers in the industry, who can see potential in breaking the mould.
As well as seeing the game, they would need exhaustive testing to show that they are not going to be hammered by skilled players, those exploiting the originality of the game rules.

the controvertial Texas Hold 'em shootout may be one such high risk game, they claim a 100% payout with "perfect strategy", but if someone actually achieved this, the casino are guaranteed losers.
Cryptologic casinos have in the past launched a few 100%+ video poker games, and used the 100%+ as a draw, however, they were not simple, and it took time for a perfect strategy to become widespread, and at this point the paytable was reduced to make it less than 100%.

Anyone who can work out this shootout game could make a mint (provided it is not actually rigged as some believe).

 

[Rusty]

Winbig told me about a game they have at bet 365 which is very interesting and plays like the game I mention only with 4 hands and more complex choices and betting.
Well worth a look in fun mode but beware of real play this is one game that could have you staking more than you really wanted to.
Play it and you will see what I mean

 

[dealer wins]

this is one game that could have you staking more than you really wanted to.

This is the problem with trying to implement a casino version of Holdem.

The betting rounds on Texas holdem could theoretically be a total bet of 24 X your original stake so for a 1 stake you could end up losing 24 (In a real holdem limit game)

This is why they have implemented the current version where (apart from the player betting more) you can only lose a max of 2 X your initial stake.

It would take some creativity to come up with a holdem game suitable for casino play where the stake doesnt risk getting out of hand for the player. (and using non-rigged cards with non-clairvoyant bots)

Must be a way though.