Casinos

Casinos By Status

Popular Filters

By Banking Options

Games

All Games

Bonuses

Popular Bonus Filters

Forums

Popular Forums

Forum User Features

Complaints

Submit A Complaint (PAB)

PAB Rules and Guidelines

Browse PABs

Gambling News

Popular News Sections

About Us

About Us

external image

Swiss casino not paying because of apparently "violation of terms and conditions"

J

Jbedde73

Dormant account
Joined
May 25, 2011
Location
Belgium
Hello there,

This is my situation. I claimed a 300% bonus at Swiss Casino (100+300 bonus). I played some blackjack, (single hand) obviously, because playing with multihand would be a violation of their terms. Anyway, i played blackjack (which has a restriction of a max bet of 100 euros).... I made a reasonalbe profit, wagered on table poker and slots. Emailed Swiss casino asking whether i have fulfilled all wagering requirements. They say yes and than i made a withdrawal request. Sended in the documents to verify my account. Everything gets verified untill they deny to pay me, because i have apparently violated their terms.

This is what they emailed:

11.6 Your use of any real money bonuses is subject to Our review for irregular playing patterns. To ensure fair gaming, We consider low margin, equal, zero bets or hedge betting to be irregular gaming for the use of bonuses. Further examples of irregular playing patterns also include, but are not limited to:



(i) placing single or multiple bets on any single game that sums over the value of seventy percent or more of the bonus credited with the intention of clearing the bonus until the release requirements have been met;

(ii) if We suspect you have attempted to use a bonus contrary to the spirit of the Promotional offering;

(iii) if We suspect that you have sought to deviously profit from a bonus offered by Us in good faith (for example, the acceptance of a bonus, wagering the minimum amount and immediately withdrawing the funds. In the event that we deem that an irregular playing pattern has taken place, We reserve the right to prevent you from cashing out Account funds and/or withhold any of Your winnings derived from Your use of the bonus.”

ok... commenting on their terms (i), apparently they have sent me a screenshot of hands that i played at blackjack. Apparently i have played blackjack placing even up to 200 euros. (first of all, i can't imagine that, because the maxbet is 100 euros) And the 70% rule of them when applied to me is: 210 euros (70% of 300 euro bonus).

term (ii)... the spirit of their use...that can be interpreted so broadly that in any event if a player wins, than all their money can get confiscated. So in my opinion a bogus term!

term (iii)... Every player that plays at a casino and get a bonus is always trying to gamble and hope to get some profit out of it. Why else play at casino??? I mean, it is not like very exciting to lose money everytime if you play at a casino. Further more. At playtech (in this case Swiss casino) there is no way that you can check how much you have wagered. So i honestly do not believe, that i have exactly wagered precisely their WR and than made a withdrawal. As mentioned, i played (a lot), don't ask me how much... emailed them asking whether i have fulfilled all wageringrequirments. They say in that email: yes you have wagered everything and it is okay to make a withdrawal.

So actually when they email this, they actually expect that you don't make a withdrawal and lose all your money or what??? Anyway, I had a total pending withdrawal of 1.1k, but they only returned my deposit. Do you guys think i have any chance in this matter, getting everything back?

Thanks for reading!

Jos
ps. below the screen they sent me

Swisscasino.webp
 
I'm curious how you were able to bet more than 100 euros :what:
Do you have an access to game history? If yes, just make a screenshot and post it here.
 
Apparently i have played blackjack placing even up to 200 euros. (first of all, i can't imagine that, because the maxbet is 100 euros) And the 70% rule of them when applied to me is: 210 euros (70% of 300 euro bonus).
Click to expand...

I haven't played at Swiss in a long time, but as it runs on Playtech software, most have a range of limits to choose from like william hill's blackjack has 0.50 - 30, 2 - 100, 5 - 300, 10 - 500.

I wonder if you chose a higher limit blackjack table which allowed you to bet 200?
 
Jbedde73 said:
(iii) if We suspect that you have sought to deviously profit from a bonus offered by Us in good faith (for example, the acceptance of a bonus, wagering the minimum amount and immediately withdrawing the funds. In the event that we deem that an irregular playing pattern has taken place, We reserve the right to prevent you from cashing out Account funds and/or withhold any of Your winnings derived from Your use of the bonus.”
Click to expand...

If the player has ground out on say 0.45 slot spins then I can see why the casino could argue an irregular playing pattern has occurred.

If you play a bonus as aggressively as this going so close to the 70% rule before grinding can you really be surprised the casino looks to the fine print of the terms and conditions?
 
Complain to GRA,
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
. You should get paid.

BTW from their about us:
Casino Swiss is owned by iGlobalMedia Entertainment Limited and managed by Global Gaming Net (GGN) one of the oldest and most respected management companies involved in the online gaming industry today.

That is a subsidiary of ElectraWorks Limited which in turn is Partygaming.

And its obvious that the 200 bets are either doubles or splits (dealer face-up card 6 at both) and the 150 he took insurance (dealer face-up card A).

Edit: WPTCasino which recently had a warning posted is also operated by ElectraWorks Limited. 2nd edit link:https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/wpt-casino-no-pay-spirit-of-the-bonus-terms.43424/ Note that the terms are identical.
 
Thanks for the reply guys. I think i might have doubled or splitted. That could explain the 200 euro bets. But i cannot seem to find my own playing history.

ok, that 'irregular gameplay' I find it really hard to understand. If you looked closely at the printscreen they had sent me, you guys should understand i had every risk to lose everything. I don't see them to email me and say: well.. you shouldn't have played like that, you get a refund back.

The reason I play at a casino is try to win some money. I think everyone here enjoys playing at a casino when they win some money. I don't think anyone would be happy should they lose all the time. Some times you get lucky and win some and sometimes you got bac luck, you'll lose some.

And I find it personally very reasonable to wager with 'little' amount of money, since i had the luck to build up my balance?!?!?!.. I think it is very stupid to play with high risk all the time. That is a 100% lose situation.

Come on guys, if you guys spin on a slot with 20 euros (just an example), and you guys still have to wager (lets say) 40k, don't tell me you'll keep on spinning with 20 euros, when you've hitted something big?! The only NOT 'irregular playing pattern' for a casino is, when a player loses all his money! That's it.

It is just too vague the 'irregular playing pattern'. They should just have made a 25% maxbet or a 30% maxbet.

I mean, the BJ i played had a maxbet of 100 euro's. That alone is already very hard to build up a balance with.

Anyway i am still of the opinion, that i haven't break any term and condition at their casino. The worst thing is, they don't respond to my emails anymore.

Jos
 
ok they dont like the op's play and it is against what they term 'spirit of the bonus' but so bloody what? they may stop offering bonuses to him in future but it is imperative that they pay him this time as i dont really see him breaking any t's ancs. swiss casino should blame themselves for the vagueness of the terms.
 
Jbedde73 said:
Come on guys, if you guys spin on a slot with 20 euros (just an example), and you guys still have to wager (lets say) 40k, don't tell me you'll keep on spinning with 20 euros, when you've hitted something big?! The only NOT 'irregular playing pattern' for a casino is, when a player loses all his money! That's it.

It is just too vague the 'irregular playing pattern'. They should just have made a 25% maxbet or a 30% maxbet.


Anyway i am still of the opinion, that i haven't break any term and condition at their casino. The worst thing is, they don't respond to my emails anymore.

Jos
Click to expand...

You are ofcourse right but you have sailed extremely close to the wind on this one.

I hope you get paid but by playing to the EXACT letter of the terms you can't be surprised they are looking to the terms to get out of it.
 
DiamondGeezer said:
You are ofcourse right but you have sailed extremely close to the wind on this one.

I hope you get paid but by playing to the EXACT letter of the terms you can't be surprised they are looking to the terms to get out of it.
Click to expand...

IMO the casino should be listed as not trustworthy/rogue then. It does not matter if he played to the exact letter of the terms, he fulfilled them and hence should be paid. If the casinos do not want players to do this, they should simply alter their bonus terms.
Many players are not playing to the EXACT letter of the terms, therefore the casino makes enough profit nevertheless.
 
My experience: you have to be careful playing at that group's casinos.When you win, there's always, always something wrong.....
I agree with spin2win
Hope best things for you
 
Clearly a case to pay the player.

With all of the marginalized US facing operations this may be a good time to bring the hammer down on 'squishy' rules (everywhere) and clean house.

Clearly rogue imo.

(iii) if We suspect that you have sought to deviously profit
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
...use a bonus contrary to the spirit of the Promotional offering
Click to expand...

This whole "spirit" of a bonus thing is a joke. From the casino's side, the bonus is purely offerred to get a player to deposit money with a view to losing it. It's not a gift - it's an incentive - and "spirit" doesn't play a part in incentivisation.

If a casino chooses to offer a bonus then they take the risks associated with that type of promotional marketing and if the player plays within the terms, all's fair IMO.
 
FreeDomme said:
So this must be the 3rd? Pay the player post I've participated in. How do these things get escalated if a complaint isn't filed?
Click to expand...

Well he said that he will compain to GRA. At least they used to rule in the players favour in similar cases and in a reasonable time (<1 month).

PAB would also have been a good option if the casino would discuss complaints with 3rd parties.
 
This is no different to what Betfair did, and they ended up in the rogue pit. Just because this is one player, it is no less rogue, and entry to the pit MAY bring them to the negotiating table.

If the terms published are NOT the terms they expect players to meet, then this is pretty much fraud on the casino's part - they have made a misleading advertisement in order to entice players to "purchase the product", only to sting them with far more onerous "real" terms AFTER they have made their purchase.

For a % of bonus max bet term, 70% seems very high compared with the 20% to 30% in terms at other casinos. It seems they have chosen a misleadingly high figure in order to make players think this is a better deal than the ones from casinos imposing a 20% to 30% limit, but they are actually enforcing the same lower limits through use of this "spirit of the bonus" term.

Just because they are "no-can-do" on the PAB front doesn't mean there is no need to complain to Bryan, else how would he know they are trying this on, and are worthy of consideration for entry to the rogue pit.

It won't be instant, and Bryan will expect a complaint to be made to GRA, and time allowed for them to deal with it, before any roguing takes place.

Max may go as far as to issue a "casino warning" pending a proper investigation of this case, and the result of the GRA complaint.
 
vinylweatherman said:
This is no different to what Betfair did, and they ended up in the rogue pit. Just because this is one player, it is no less rogue, and entry to the pit MAY bring them to the negotiating table.

Just because they are "no-can-do" on the PAB front doesn't mean there is no need to complain to Bryan, else how would he know they are trying this on, and are worthy of consideration for entry to the rogue pit.
Click to expand...

:notworthy Amen!
 
Thanks guys for all the comments. I have sended my complaint today to GRA. I hope they will resolve this issue quickly. I will keep the status updated as soon as I hear something.

IMO, Swiss Casino should definately be on the rogueslist. The mere fact, that they haven't replied to my email, since 25/05/2011, is reason enough.

I really do hope they will pay me eventually.
Thanks again guys!

Jos
 
I do hope you get paid, obviously you dererve to.

I mean what is irregular betting exactly? How are you supposed to know if you have broken that term if it has never been defined? The same goes for the 'spirit of the bonus'.

It was never my intention to suggest you didn't derserve to be paid. All I was doing was suggesting that in reality maybe bet a bit lower and do coverplay so that you don't find yourself in this position. Because once they don't pay it is hard to get a fair hearing if the PAB service is not available and the jurisdiction is not strong.
 
OH MY GOD

Wow ... the good thing is: they replied quite fast, but this is what they sent:

Dear Mr Beddeleem



Thank you for your email below.



I have read your complaint and supporting material, and I note that;



1. the Gambling Commissioner’s guidance paper already addresses the nature of your complaint; and
2. the operator has explained to you in detail the reasons for forefeiting your winnings, refunding your deposits, closing your account and refusing any further custom from you. Swiss Casino has acted in accordance with its general terms and conditions that you agreed to when you registered, and the promotion sepcific terms and conditions you agreed to when accepting the ‘Welcome Bonus’. In other words Swiss Casino told you that it would void your play, refund your depoists and close your account if you acted the way that you did.



On this basis, we do not see reason to progress this matter any further.



Yours sincerely

Nicholas Macias,
Gambling Regulator (Policy and Operations)

Guys, do you think a "PAB" will be usefull in this case?

Jos
 
Jbedde73 said:
Wow ... the good thing is: they replied quite fast, but this is what they sent:

Dear Mr Beddeleem



Thank you for your email below.



I have read your complaint and supporting material, and I note that;



1. the Gambling Commissioner’s guidance paper already addresses the nature of your complaint; and
2. the operator has explained to you in detail the reasons for forefeiting your winnings, refunding your deposits, closing your account and refusing any further custom from you. Swiss Casino has acted in accordance with its general terms and conditions that you agreed to when you registered, and the promotion sepcific terms and conditions you agreed to when accepting the ‘Welcome Bonus’. In other words Swiss Casino told you that it would void your play, refund your depoists and close your account if you acted the way that you did.



On this basis, we do not see reason to progress this matter any further.



Yours sincerely

Nicholas Macias,
Gambling Regulator (Policy and Operations)

Guys, do you think a "PAB" will be usefull in this case?

Jos
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear. GRA used to be good (at least 2-3 years ago), guess one can forget them in future. And what a totally awful reply, GRA you suck:barf:

Dont know if PAB is an option as the issue has been discussed quite much but you can send maxd a PM. Even if PAB wouldnt be possible they (he and Bryan) may have some contacts.

And you can also submit a complaint at askgamblers. They promote them and they recently were partly succesful in getting one player paid part of his winnings by PartyCasino.
 
spiderlegz said:
Sorry to hear. GRA used to be good (at least 2-3 years ago), guess one can forget them in future. And what a totally awful reply, GRA you suck:barf:

Dont know if PAB is an option as the issue has been discussed quite much but you can send maxd a PM. Even if PAB wouldnt be possible they (he and Bryan) may have some contacts.

And you can also submit a complaint at askgamblers. They promote them and they recently were partly succesful in getting one player paid part of his winnings by PartyCasino.
Click to expand...

Thanks Spider for th tip. I just submitted a complaint at AskGamblers. pff.. really do hope i get everything back. Will keep this updated.

cheers
 
GRA

The GRA seem to have taken a very operator friendly view to 'bouns abuse' recently. This is a quote from their website -

"Bonus complaints/abuse

Bonuses are a key part of online gambling. They are a marketing tool used to attract and retain bona fide customers. Bonuses are always covered by specific and sometimes complex terms and condition that require the customer to play a large number of games ('turnover rules), but only in certain areas (such as slots). Accepting a bonus will affect your ability to withdraw any money from the account.

These rules are designed to be fair to bona fide customers, but also to protect the operator from 'Bonus Abusers'. A bonus abuser is a player who is playing only to try and take advantage of (withdraw) the bonus and, in the opinion of the operator, has no apparent intention of becoming an ongoing customer. Some bonus abusers are organised, deliberate and sophisticated; others may be naïve or simply have not read or understood the terms and conditions. The operator has the right to terminate bonus abusers' accounts and may or may not refund deposits.

We require our operators to make clear in the relevant terms and conditions that customers' and their play will be monitored for bonus abuse, what the qualifying rules are in respect of bonus play and bonus abuse, and when the operator is entitled to void, or disqualify an account in breach of those rules. A bonus abuser who wins money is not entitled to the bonus or the winnings, a bonus abuser who loses money is not entitled to his money back.

Bonuses are not 'free money' that the operator wishes to give away, but an incentive to players to join or stay with an operator, play more and/or different games. Operators will not usually disclose to customers how or why they were identified as a bonus abuser, as to do so tells the abuser how to avoid being identified, but it is usually because the player already has an account with the operator or one of its associates, the player has already had the bonus or an equivalent bonus, the customer plays the bonus in non qualifying areas and/or does not meet the 'turnover rules/wagering requirements', or the player has engaged in just enough play to qualify for the bonus and then seeks to withdraw it.

These actions are invariably contrary to the operator's rules, and refusing to allow the withdrawal, terminating the account and returning unspent deposits, or disqualifying the player are legitimate and reasonable ways of dealing with 'bonus abuse'."

I think any customer trying to register a complaint with them when they've played with a bonus is likely to hit a brick wall.

Lister.
 
Not a good Group

When this group was allowed in Italy, I've always, always have some problem with then.
And their offers were like to climb Himalaya.
I don't miss them.Stress them and then let them go....
 
hi

Jbedde73 said:
Wow ... the good thing is: they replied quite fast, but this is what they sent:

Dear Mr Beddeleem



Thank you for your email below.



I have read your complaint and supporting material, and I note that;



1. the Gambling Commissioner’s guidance paper already addresses the nature of your complaint; and
2. the operator has explained to you in detail the reasons for forefeiting your winnings, refunding your deposits, closing your account and refusing any further custom from you. Swiss Casino has acted in accordance with its general terms and conditions that you agreed to when you registered, and the promotion sepcific terms and conditions you agreed to when accepting the ‘Welcome Bonus’. In other words Swiss Casino told you that it would void your play, refund your depoists and close your account if you acted the way that you did.



On this basis, we do not see reason to progress this matter any further.



Yours sincerely

Nicholas Macias,
Gambling Regulator (Policy and Operations)

Guys, do you think a "PAB" will be usefull in this case?

Jos
Click to expand...


When my brother won 40.000 $ on class1 casino after account closure and deposit back he send e-mail to playtech support and the answer was same.....
i dont belive there are solutions of this character at this operators
 
My case is now under PAB, so I won't say anything more about this issue for now and will wait patiently for MaxD to update me.

I do can tell that GRA, complaining at AskGamblers, won't work, at least for me in this situation. Hope all ends well though. Crossing my fingers every day.
 
Well, the GRA seems to say that it will consider "opinion" rather than "fact" as evidence enough to "convict" a player of being in the wrong.

There is nothing done here to breach the terms, so the terms are NOT "clear" in any sense, so players CANNOT know whether their play will be deemed to be against the rules.

This would NEVER be allowed here in the UK under the "unfair business practices act", as all terms must be both clear, and PRECISE. No room for "in the opinion of" terms that breach both this law, and the "unfair contracts act" whereby a court can simply strike out a clause deemed to be unfair, and make judgement based on what remains.

Gibraltar is NOT part of the EU, so EU protection does NOT apply. The ONLY option therefore is to take the matter to civil court in Gibraltar, which is likely to be far too expensive to pursue unless a very large sum is at stake.

The REAL problem is that the industry want to continue to make the offers appear better than they really are, so avoid using overly restrictive EXPLICIT rules, and go for the "in the spirit of" argument.

They may have won with the GRA, but using "in the spirit of" usually ends up with them in the pit, as happened to Betfair.

This kind of thing will damage them in the long run, because the type of players they are after will see these stories, be completely unable to see what the players did that was so wrong, and believe that the entire industry is a bunch of "rogue businesses" that use offshore jurisdictions to get away with it by being beyond the reach of consumer protection legislation in the players' home country.
 
vinylweatherman said:
Gibraltar is NOT part of the EU, so EU protection does NOT apply. The ONLY option therefore is to take the matter to civil court in Gibraltar, which is likely to be far too expensive to pursue unless a very large sum is at stake.
Click to expand...
Gibraltar is part of the EU as a British dependent territory in Europe, but it is outside the customs union and the common agricultural policy. Gibraltar is part of the Southwest England constituency for the elections to the European Parliament.
 
GrandMaster said:
Gibraltar is part of the EU as a British dependent territory in Europe, but it is outside the customs union and the common agricultural policy. Gibraltar is part of the Southwest England constituency for the elections to the European Parliament.
Click to expand...

What EU laws are they bound by?

What they have done would be against UK consumer protection laws.

This might open an opportunity to take action in the UK courts or those of the players' own country, rather than in Gibraltar.

The fact that the GRA have ruled in the matter means that proper procedure has been followed before taking things to court.

The UK government has often found it's own laws ruled "illegal" in the high court, and been forced to change them. This is usually where different laws conflict with each other, or a law is incompatible with an EU directive that the UK government is required to make law and enforce.

The human rights treaty is what most often leads to the UK government losing these type of cases. So much so that the government is considering watering down, or even repealing, it's implementation.

The GRA could just as easily find it's own regulatory procedures deemed "illegal" due to conflicts with consumer protection directives and laws.

There is a fair bit of confusion over these dependencies and how they fit into the EU model. They seem to have certain "exemptions" granted that means it is hard to work out which parts of EU law applies to them.

This makes it hard for players to know where they stand legally.
 
Big thumbs up for Max!

:thumbsup::thumbsup: got my money back! For interested: Swiss casino changed their terms and condtions into:

11.6 Your use of any real money bonuses is subject to Our review for irregular playing patterns. To ensure fair gaming and the proper use of bonuses, We consider low margin betting, equal betting, zero risk bets or hedge betting to be irregular gaming when deployed to exploit bonuses. Further examples of irregular playing patterns also include, but are not limited to: (i) placing single or multiple bets of a value of fifty percent or more of the bonus on any single game, individual hand, or round, building a balance and significantly changing play patterns (bet size, game types, bet structures etc) in order to meet the bonus release requirement; (ii) placing large bets which result in a substantial gain followed by a drop in bet size equal to or more than seventy five percent of the previous average bet size until the bonus release requirements have been met (iii) if We have good grounds to suspect that you have sought only to exploit a bonus offered by Us in good faith to enhance your entertainment (for example, on acceptance of a bonus, the minimum wagering requirement is met and funds are subsequently withdrawn).
 

Similar threads

H
MonkeyTilt Refusing to Pay $100,000 Withdrawal – Baseless T&C Accusations, No Evidence
Replies
49
Views
4K
Hoke1996
H
M
Bonus Complaint Incognito Casino Withdrawal and Bonus Issue
Replies
6
Views
3K
grimsby10
G
O
OnlyWin Casino - Deceptive Cashback Practices & Hostile Customer Service
Replies
1
Views
1K
OnlyWin casino
OnlyWin casino
A
2,700 in winnings withheld due to non-consensual bonus
Replies
6
Views
1K
maxd
maxd
O
Wazbee Confiscates Real Winnings After Bonus Cap, Only Losses Allowed
Replies
6
Views
2K
spindoctor99
S

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 1 (members: 0, guests: 1)

Accredited Casinos

Read about our rating system and how it's done.
Back
Top