Swiss casino not paying because of apparently "violation of terms and conditions"

Jbedde73

Dormant account
Joined
May 25, 2011
Location
Belgium
Hello there,

This is my situation. I claimed a 300% bonus at Swiss Casino (100+300 bonus). I played some blackjack, (single hand) obviously, because playing with multihand would be a violation of their terms. Anyway, i played blackjack (which has a restriction of a max bet of 100 euros).... I made a reasonalbe profit, wagered on table poker and slots. Emailed Swiss casino asking whether i have fulfilled all wagering requirements. They say yes and than i made a withdrawal request. Sended in the documents to verify my account. Everything gets verified untill they deny to pay me, because i have apparently violated their terms.

This is what they emailed:

11.6 Your use of any real money bonuses is subject to Our review for irregular playing patterns. To ensure fair gaming, We consider low margin, equal, zero bets or hedge betting to be irregular gaming for the use of bonuses. Further examples of irregular playing patterns also include, but are not limited to:



(i) placing single or multiple bets on any single game that sums over the value of seventy percent or more of the bonus credited with the intention of clearing the bonus until the release requirements have been met;

(ii) if We suspect you have attempted to use a bonus contrary to the spirit of the Promotional offering;

(iii) if We suspect that you have sought to deviously profit from a bonus offered by Us in good faith (for example, the acceptance of a bonus, wagering the minimum amount and immediately withdrawing the funds. In the event that we deem that an irregular playing pattern has taken place, We reserve the right to prevent you from cashing out Account funds and/or withhold any of Your winnings derived from Your use of the bonus.”

ok... commenting on their terms (i), apparently they have sent me a screenshot of hands that i played at blackjack. Apparently i have played blackjack placing even up to 200 euros. (first of all, i can't imagine that, because the maxbet is 100 euros) And the 70% rule of them when applied to me is: 210 euros (70% of 300 euro bonus).

term (ii)... the spirit of their use...that can be interpreted so broadly that in any event if a player wins, than all their money can get confiscated. So in my opinion a bogus term!

term (iii)... Every player that plays at a casino and get a bonus is always trying to gamble and hope to get some profit out of it. Why else play at casino??? I mean, it is not like very exciting to lose money everytime if you play at a casino. Further more. At playtech (in this case Swiss casino) there is no way that you can check how much you have wagered. So i honestly do not believe, that i have exactly wagered precisely their WR and than made a withdrawal. As mentioned, i played (a lot), don't ask me how much... emailed them asking whether i have fulfilled all wageringrequirments. They say in that email: yes you have wagered everything and it is okay to make a withdrawal.

So actually when they email this, they actually expect that you don't make a withdrawal and lose all your money or what??? Anyway, I had a total pending withdrawal of 1.1k, but they only returned my deposit. Do you guys think i have any chance in this matter, getting everything back?

Thanks for reading!

Jos
ps. below the screen they sent me

Swisscasino.png
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
Well its obvious you were using blackjack to build up your balance and grinding away on slots and tables. Its what the casino is attempting to prevent.

However, what you did wasnt against the rules.

Spirit of the bonus is total crap and doesn't hold water.

IMO its a case of "pay the player"
 

SlotMonster

Twitch Streamer - Affiliate
webmeister
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Location
Belarus
I'm curious how you were able to bet more than 100 euros :what:
Do you have an access to game history? If yes, just make a screenshot and post it here.
 

Rick Deckard

Experienced Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2011
Location
UK
Apparently i have played blackjack placing even up to 200 euros. (first of all, i can't imagine that, because the maxbet is 100 euros) And the 70% rule of them when applied to me is: 210 euros (70% of 300 euro bonus).

I haven't played at Swiss in a long time, but as it runs on Playtech software, most have a range of limits to choose from like william hill's blackjack has 0.50 - 30, 2 - 100, 5 - 300, 10 - 500.

I wonder if you chose a higher limit blackjack table which allowed you to bet 200?
 

DiamondGeezer

Dormant account
PABaccred
PABnoaccred
PABnononaccred2
Joined
May 12, 2007
Location
NOT Pennsylvania!!!
(iii) if We suspect that you have sought to deviously profit from a bonus offered by Us in good faith (for example, the acceptance of a bonus, wagering the minimum amount and immediately withdrawing the funds. In the event that we deem that an irregular playing pattern has taken place, We reserve the right to prevent you from cashing out Account funds and/or withhold any of Your winnings derived from Your use of the bonus.”

If the player has ground out on say 0.45 slot spins then I can see why the casino could argue an irregular playing pattern has occurred.

If you play a bonus as aggressively as this going so close to the 70% rule before grinding can you really be surprised the casino looks to the fine print of the terms and conditions?
 

Tengil

Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2006
Location
Finland
Complain to GRA,
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
. You should get paid.

BTW from their about us:
Casino Swiss is owned by iGlobalMedia Entertainment Limited and managed by Global Gaming Net (GGN) one of the oldest and most respected management companies involved in the online gaming industry today.

That is a subsidiary of ElectraWorks Limited which in turn is Partygaming.

And its obvious that the 200 bets are either doubles or splits (dealer face-up card 6 at both) and the 150 he took insurance (dealer face-up card A).

Edit: WPTCasino which recently had a warning posted is also operated by ElectraWorks Limited. 2nd edit link:https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/wpt-casino-no-pay-spirit-of-the-bonus-terms.43424/ Note that the terms are identical.
 

SlotMonster

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Then casino should remove this stupid "spirit of the bonus" rule and pay the player in full IMO.
 

Jbedde73

Dormant account
Joined
May 25, 2011
Location
Belgium
Thanks for the reply guys. I think i might have doubled or splitted. That could explain the 200 euro bets. But i cannot seem to find my own playing history.

ok, that 'irregular gameplay' I find it really hard to understand. If you looked closely at the printscreen they had sent me, you guys should understand i had every risk to lose everything. I don't see them to email me and say: well.. you shouldn't have played like that, you get a refund back.

The reason I play at a casino is try to win some money. I think everyone here enjoys playing at a casino when they win some money. I don't think anyone would be happy should they lose all the time. Some times you get lucky and win some and sometimes you got bac luck, you'll lose some.

And I find it personally very reasonable to wager with 'little' amount of money, since i had the luck to build up my balance?!?!?!.. I think it is very stupid to play with high risk all the time. That is a 100% lose situation.

Come on guys, if you guys spin on a slot with 20 euros (just an example), and you guys still have to wager (lets say) 40k, don't tell me you'll keep on spinning with 20 euros, when you've hitted something big?! The only NOT 'irregular playing pattern' for a casino is, when a player loses all his money! That's it.

It is just too vague the 'irregular playing pattern'. They should just have made a 25% maxbet or a 30% maxbet.

I mean, the BJ i played had a maxbet of 100 euro's. That alone is already very hard to build up a balance with.

Anyway i am still of the opinion, that i haven't break any term and condition at their casino. The worst thing is, they don't respond to my emails anymore.

Jos
 

Jbedde73

Dormant account
Joined
May 25, 2011
Location
Belgium
Thanks guys,

I'll try to complain then... I will keep you guys updated!

Much appreciated for the help!

Cheers,

Jos
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
ok they dont like the op's play and it is against what they term 'spirit of the bonus' but so bloody what? they may stop offering bonuses to him in future but it is imperative that they pay him this time as i dont really see him breaking any t's ancs. swiss casino should blame themselves for the vagueness of the terms.
 

DiamondGeezer

Dormant account
PABaccred
PABnoaccred
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Joined
May 12, 2007
Location
NOT Pennsylvania!!!
Come on guys, if you guys spin on a slot with 20 euros (just an example), and you guys still have to wager (lets say) 40k, don't tell me you'll keep on spinning with 20 euros, when you've hitted something big?! The only NOT 'irregular playing pattern' for a casino is, when a player loses all his money! That's it.

It is just too vague the 'irregular playing pattern'. They should just have made a 25% maxbet or a 30% maxbet.


Anyway i am still of the opinion, that i haven't break any term and condition at their casino. The worst thing is, they don't respond to my emails anymore.

Jos

You are ofcourse right but you have sailed extremely close to the wind on this one.

I hope you get paid but by playing to the EXACT letter of the terms you can't be surprised they are looking to the terms to get out of it.
 

spin2win

Dormant account
Joined
May 30, 2011
Location
Germany
You are ofcourse right but you have sailed extremely close to the wind on this one.

I hope you get paid but by playing to the EXACT letter of the terms you can't be surprised they are looking to the terms to get out of it.

IMO the casino should be listed as not trustworthy/rogue then. It does not matter if he played to the exact letter of the terms, he fulfilled them and hence should be paid. If the casinos do not want players to do this, they should simply alter their bonus terms.
Many players are not playing to the EXACT letter of the terms, therefore the casino makes enough profit nevertheless.
 

Temperance Fox

New Member
PABnononaccred
Joined
Aug 22, 2010
Location
Nowhere
My experience: you have to be careful playing at that group's casinos.When you win, there's always, always something wrong.....
I agree with spin2win
Hope best things for you
 

FreeDomme

Banned User
Joined
Apr 17, 2011
Location
Way out west, way way out.
Clearly a case to pay the player.

With all of the marginalized US facing operations this may be a good time to bring the hammer down on 'squishy' rules (everywhere) and clean house.

Clearly rogue imo.

(iii) if We suspect that you have sought to deviously profit
 
Last edited:

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
...use a bonus contrary to the spirit of the Promotional offering

This whole "spirit" of a bonus thing is a joke. From the casino's side, the bonus is purely offerred to get a player to deposit money with a view to losing it. It's not a gift - it's an incentive - and "spirit" doesn't play a part in incentivisation.

If a casino chooses to offer a bonus then they take the risks associated with that type of promotional marketing and if the player plays within the terms, all's fair IMO.
 

Tengil

Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2006
Location
Finland
So this must be the 3rd? Pay the player post I've participated in. How do these things get escalated if a complaint isn't filed?

Well he said that he will compain to GRA. At least they used to rule in the players favour in similar cases and in a reasonable time (<1 month).

PAB would also have been a good option if the casino would discuss complaints with 3rd parties.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
This is no different to what Betfair did, and they ended up in the rogue pit. Just because this is one player, it is no less rogue, and entry to the pit MAY bring them to the negotiating table.

If the terms published are NOT the terms they expect players to meet, then this is pretty much fraud on the casino's part - they have made a misleading advertisement in order to entice players to "purchase the product", only to sting them with far more onerous "real" terms AFTER they have made their purchase.

For a % of bonus max bet term, 70% seems very high compared with the 20% to 30% in terms at other casinos. It seems they have chosen a misleadingly high figure in order to make players think this is a better deal than the ones from casinos imposing a 20% to 30% limit, but they are actually enforcing the same lower limits through use of this "spirit of the bonus" term.

Just because they are "no-can-do" on the PAB front doesn't mean there is no need to complain to Bryan, else how would he know they are trying this on, and are worthy of consideration for entry to the rogue pit.

It won't be instant, and Bryan will expect a complaint to be made to GRA, and time allowed for them to deal with it, before any roguing takes place.

Max may go as far as to issue a "casino warning" pending a proper investigation of this case, and the result of the GRA complaint.
 

SlotMonster

Twitch Streamer - Affiliate
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Location
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This is no different to what Betfair did, and they ended up in the rogue pit. Just because this is one player, it is no less rogue, and entry to the pit MAY bring them to the negotiating table.

Just because they are "no-can-do" on the PAB front doesn't mean there is no need to complain to Bryan, else how would he know they are trying this on, and are worthy of consideration for entry to the rogue pit.

:notworthy Amen!
 

Jbedde73

Dormant account
Joined
May 25, 2011
Location
Belgium
Thanks guys for all the comments. I have sended my complaint today to GRA. I hope they will resolve this issue quickly. I will keep the status updated as soon as I hear something.

IMO, Swiss Casino should definately be on the rogueslist. The mere fact, that they haven't replied to my email, since 25/05/2011, is reason enough.

I really do hope they will pay me eventually.
Thanks again guys!

Jos
 

DiamondGeezer

Dormant account
PABaccred
PABnoaccred
PABnononaccred2
Joined
May 12, 2007
Location
NOT Pennsylvania!!!
I do hope you get paid, obviously you dererve to.

I mean what is irregular betting exactly? How are you supposed to know if you have broken that term if it has never been defined? The same goes for the 'spirit of the bonus'.

It was never my intention to suggest you didn't derserve to be paid. All I was doing was suggesting that in reality maybe bet a bit lower and do coverplay so that you don't find yourself in this position. Because once they don't pay it is hard to get a fair hearing if the PAB service is not available and the jurisdiction is not strong.
 

Jbedde73

Dormant account
Joined
May 25, 2011
Location
Belgium
OH MY GOD

Wow ... the good thing is: they replied quite fast, but this is what they sent:

Dear Mr Beddeleem



Thank you for your email below.



I have read your complaint and supporting material, and I note that;



1. the Gambling Commissioner’s guidance paper already addresses the nature of your complaint; and
2. the operator has explained to you in detail the reasons for forefeiting your winnings, refunding your deposits, closing your account and refusing any further custom from you. Swiss Casino has acted in accordance with its general terms and conditions that you agreed to when you registered, and the promotion sepcific terms and conditions you agreed to when accepting the ‘Welcome Bonus’. In other words Swiss Casino told you that it would void your play, refund your depoists and close your account if you acted the way that you did.



On this basis, we do not see reason to progress this matter any further.



Yours sincerely

Nicholas Macias,
Gambling Regulator (Policy and Operations)

Guys, do you think a "PAB" will be usefull in this case?

Jos
 
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