Started Court Proceedings

[worldlad]

Started a complaint with a large well known leading UK based gambling operator, due to a lack of safe guarding from there end. Raised a complaint and got fobbed off, so emailed the CEO by Googling CEO email addresses, within an hour or so received an email from a jobs worth sprouting the usual corporate nonsense but still wouldn't back down, then went via the Gambling Commission who are utterly weak and don't take on individual cases (they should be closed down), went to IBAS who refused to take on my complaint stating it's not in their remit....So I had a good win recently on another site so thought screw it I'm taking them to court, so they have the option of paying me what I believe I'm owed and deserved plus court charges or I'll end up in court with them.

Has anyone else done anything similar?

 

[Nicola]

Thankfully a complaint I had with a well-known operator was dealt with after I called the CEO directly. As you say, the UKGC are worthless for the player and appear more supportive of the operators.

Will be interested to see how your legal proceedings turn out as I'm sure it will give confidence to others in similar circumstances

 

[sueyh]

I think people can't comment much, since we don't have much information about the case.

But it is not wise to talk about the detail if you started the court proceedings.

Hope you will get the result you want, and after all things settled hope you can tell us more about the case.

Good luck!

 

[worldlad]

The money owed isn't huge, took me around 20 minutes to put the claim through and cost £60.00, if they don't pay up then we'll have to attend court and it'll will cost them many many thousands so they might as well payout at the beginning.

If you are in the UK and have reached a point where you can't go any further with the casino, or governing body you can take them to court easily here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

98% of them back down quickly and pay up, as the media always take an interest in the cases, oh and the extra costs incurred during proceedings.

 

[colinsunderland]

Can you give some more detail on your claim? I hope you have some legal training/knowledge or took some legal advice as if the POC isn't right then it will fail at the first hurdle, unfortunately there isn't much wriggle room in law if the claim isn't presented properly, something I completely disagree with as time and time again I've seen perfectly good claims get struck out because they were worded incorrectly or some stupid reason like that.

What I will say is, from your post it sounds as if you are expecting them to back down as soon as they get the claim, please don't think like that. Have all your shit together as theres a good chance you will have to provide it.

I also presume you sent a letter before action? The pre action protocols must be followed properly or you have lost before you start.

 

[worldlad]

Our last email indicated a deadlock situation.

If I do not hear from you by ****, I will assume you are in agreement with this and will proceed with my intent action which will result in court proceedings.

I'm afraid I can't go into this complaint any further as it's a live case and would break relevant laws in the UK which could result in contempt.

 

[dunover]

Thankfully a complaint I had with a well-known operator was dealt with after I called the CEO directly. As you say, the UKGC are worthless for the player and appear more supportive of the operators.

Will be interested to see how your legal proceedings turn out as I'm sure it will give confidence to others in similar circumstances

They would be as their remit does not include player disputes, that's what ADRs are for and IBAS etc. and then ultimately the court system. You can report an operator but in a general sense as opposed to individual dispute.

They are a bunch of useless c****. I have official complaints in there, elevated to stage 2 regarding 2 operators and their behaviour, both with accredited casinos on here. I submitted evidence as required and now haven't heard back in 6 months. I have exposed, beyond doubt unethical practices in my evidence and this 'inconvenient truth' will make them and the UKGC look like the shysters they are. Hence them hoping it will go away, and ignoring it.

So I agree they seem beholden to the operators. That's why people have to take operators to court increasingly, due to the UKGC's failings. I will go to their stand at ICE and give them my middle finger, the complacent and inept morons..

 

[colinsunderland]

Our last email indicated a deadlock situation.

If I do not hear from you by ****, I will assume you are in agreement with this and will proceed with my intent action which will result in court proceedings.

I'm afraid I can't go into this complaint any further as it's a live case and would break relevant laws in the UK which could result in contempt.

Thats not a letter before action, I would withdraw the case, send the LBA and refile the case if need be, otherwise it will get kicked out of court.

Which laws exactly do you think you would break by giving rough details? In fact specific details even? I can assure you 100% it certainly wouldn't be contempt unless a court has ordered you not to publish details of the case already.

Seriously, before you waste any more money I would strongly advise reading up on civil procedure rules before you do anything else. I would also strongly advise you to send the LBA by post, recorded, and not send it via email. The reason for that should be obvious.

 

[worldlad]

Seems to me from reading the amount of disputes going on and those customers getting utterly scammed and ripped off then the Court system is the only way to go.

Once they start receiving court proceedings to stand in front of the judge or just pay up, they might start improving things for everyone. Also the more court proceedings that happen the relevant governments will start to take further action against these sites and hopefully get rid of these useless gambling commissions which are utterly powerless for the normal average losing folk.

 

[worldlad]

Thats not a letter before action, I would withdraw the case, send the LBA and refile the case if need be, otherwise it will get kicked out of court.

Which laws exactly do you think you would break by giving rough details? In fact specific details even? I can assure you 100% it certainly wouldn't be contempt unless a court has ordered you not to publish details of the case already.

Seriously, before you waste any more money I would strongly advise reading up on civil procedure rules before you do anything else. I would also strongly advise you to send the LBA by post, recorded, and not send it via email. The reason for that should be obvious.

I hear you.

It's now in the court hands that will be sending my file and relevant prosecution papers to the company. If the judge requires further information then they have advised they will request this. Small claims proceedings are much more less informal before the action goes to the next stage.

 

[slotmaster]

Oh man it sounds like here in Canada where no one gives a shit and just gives you the run around. I thought over there would have been much better in these type of things.

Also Colin is 100% bang on, You need to have everything and be able to show everything and don't be surprised if that is even not enough. If you can show that you really tried to work it out that is good for you, If you just sent 1 email or communication and just decide to take them to court that is not good for you.

I highly advise anyone even if it's not a court matter but anything like buying a car or even simple complaints about something is to have it in writing and KEEP it for many years. I still have emails and such from way back in 2006 even though I know I don't need them anymore I still have them and wary of getting rid of them.

Besides slots let's just say I have quite a bit of experience with stuff like this.

 

[colinsunderland]

I hear you.

It's now in the court hands that will be sending my file and relevant prosecution papers to the company. If the judge requires further information then they have advised they will request this. Small claims proceedings are much more less informal before the action goes to the next stage.

I don't think you do, your claim will fail if you haven't sent a LBA. If I was the casino I would ask for the claim to be struck off as no LBA was sent, and I very much doubt a court would disagree. Practice directions state

Steps before issuing a claim at court
6. Where there is a relevant pre-action protocol, the parties should comply with that protocol before commencing proceedings. Where there is no relevant pre-action protocol, the parties should exchange correspondence and information to comply with the objectives in paragraph 3, bearing in mind that compliance should be proportionate. The steps will usually include—
(a) the claimant writing to the defendant with concise details of the claim. The letter should include the basis on which the claim is made, a summary of the facts, what the claimant wants from the defendant, and if money, how the amount is calculated;
(b) the defendant responding within a reasonable time - 14 days in a straight forward case and no more than 3 months in a very complex one. The reply should include confirmation as to whether the claim is accepted and, if it is not accepted, the reasons why, together with an explanation as to which facts and parts of the claim are disputed and whether the defendant is making a counterclaim as well as providing details of any counterclaim; and
(c) the parties disclosing key documents relevant to the issues in dispute.

Also its likely to be allocated to fast track if its a small amount as you suggest, not small claims.

Seriously mate, I'm not saying it to be argumentative, if a casino has cheated you then good on you for having the balls to take it further, but you are going to lose your fee and possibly be liable for their costs if you don't follow pre-action protocols. A letter before action is essential to the claim moving forward and a first week law student could get it kicked out if it wasn't done

 

[worldlad]

Oh man it sounds like here in Canada where no one gives a shit and just gives you the run around. I thought over there would have been much better in these type of things.

They are getting away with murder the lot of them, too many gambling commissions, 3rd party resolution organisations etc.

 

[The Dude]

They are getting away with murder the lot of them, too many gambling commissions, 3rd party resolution organisations etc.

Just to chime in here real quick. Each casino licensed by the UKGC is required to list an ADR which they have agreed to accept complaints from. But players have the right to choose any third party they wish to use whether it's another ADR, a solicitor, or the milk man. There is more information about that here: UKGC and ADRs. ADRs are free by the way.

I know IBAS is slow - but it could be overwhelmed with hundreds of submissions. They have not been too effective in the past - and I'm hoping to run into them at the ICE to find out why - what their work load is.

The UKGC is not set up for complaints; they are strictly a regulator and refer all complaints to ADRs. If the issue concerns self-exclusion, then they will handle that.

Just an FYI.

 

[interlog]

I don't think you do, your claim will fail if you haven't sent a LBA. If I was the casino I would ask for the claim to be struck off as no LBA was sent, and I very much doubt a court would disagree. Practice directions state



Also its likely to be allocated to fast track if its a small amount as you suggest, not small claims.

Seriously mate, I'm not saying it to be argumentative, if a casino has cheated you then good on you for having the balls to take it further, but you are going to lose your fee and possibly be liable for their costs if you don't follow pre-action protocols. A letter before action is essential to the claim moving forward and a first week law student could get it kicked out if it wasn't done

Pretty much of all that.

Plus you must have exhausted all other means to resolve the issue. Court action is the very last resort.

As for the comment made (not from you Colin, but the OP) that it is very much informal - it isn't! I have taken legal action a number of times before (with holiday Companies, not Casinos) so I am talking about experience here.

Your letter before action must be very specific. You must clearly set out what they have done wrong, what you want in terms of redress and when by.

Some more details in terms of what they have done wrong would be appreciated to make a better judgement as to whether you have a strong case.

 

[worldlad]

Just to chime in here real quick. Each casino licensed by the UKGC is required to list an ADR which they have agreed to accept complaints from. But players have the right to choose any third party they wish to use whether it's another ADR, a solicitor, or the milk man. There is more information about that here: UKGC and ADRs. ADRs are free by the way.

I know IBAS is slow - but it could be overwhelmed with hundreds of submissions. They have not been too effective in the past - and I'm hoping to run into them at the ICE to find out why - what their work load is.

The UKGC is not set up for complaints; they are strictly a regulator and refer all complaints to ADRs. If the issue concerns self-exclusion, then they will handle that.

Just an FYI.

Hey Mate, thanks for your response. Here's a bit more information on my experience with IBAS which you could bring up with them, over 350 phone calls made within a 5 week period on average 2-15 calls made to them each day, not once did anyone pick up the phone it's just an answer machine all day everyday. In regards to submitting information to them via email, they give no confirmation of the new case submitted to them, they ignore emails and I've been informed the current wait time for cases to be even looked at is 3-7 months. So just like the UK Gambling Commission both are pretty useless and powerless for individual players.

This was my response from IBAS:


I acknowledge receipt of your submission which outlined your complaint against ***.

However as previously advised we were willing to view such complaints but after discussion and meetings with the Gambling Commission they said that it was not something we could pursue as self exclusion was a social responsibility issue and something the regulators should deal with.

However I would have to advise you that this Service is not a regulator of the industry and have no powers as to how casinos are operating. We only offer in the main third party adjudication in pricing and settlement complaints.

You would have to communicate your complaint to * at the Gambling Commission - [email protected] or by telephone 0121 230 6666. (Not sure why they gave me this advice as the Gambling Commission does not take individual complaints and although they do believe a breach has taken place, they said if they take them on and they get fined the money goes to the UK treasurer - So told them to stick it!!!

Further to correspondence between IBAS and the Gambling Commission they have advised that they will only consider whether an operator has followed the LCCP codes regarding ******. It looks like you would not receive back the funds you are after. Your only recourse would be the legal channels now available to you.

I am genuinely sorry we can be of no assistance in your complaint but trust the above will help in some way.


When I called HM Court Services the woman on the phone said that UK Courts have seen a rapid increase in prosecution cases against Bookmakers, Casinos and Online Casino Websites. This shows that the current complicated ways to take action against Casinos is simply not working and a simple check on Google shows the extent of the problem and it's been going on for years.

 

[petro]

Taking companies/people to court seems to be the only way to handle issues nowadays.
People just can't be reasonable and resolve the issue by peaceful means; they must be forced.

 

[interlog]

Our last email indicated a deadlock situation.

If I do not hear from you by ****, I will assume you are in agreement with this and will proceed with my intent action which will result in court proceedings.

I'm afraid I can't go into this complaint any further as it's a live case and would break relevant laws in the UK which could result in contempt.

What an utter load of rubbish. You can go into as much detail as you want. This is not a criminal case that is going to be decided in front of a Jury, when that law indeed applies.

 

[KasinoKing]

They are getting away with murder the lot of them, too many gambling commissions, 3rd party resolution organisations etc.

Posting an affiliate link in your signature is not only VERY uncool - it is also strictly against forum rules.

I suggest you remove it pronto!

 

[worldlad]

What an utter load of rubbish. You can go into as much detail as you want. This is not a criminal case that is going to be decided in front of a Jury, when that law indeed applies.

I think you misunderstand what a Small Claims Court is:

It can be either civil or criminal, in most cases small claims deal with civil issues as per below.



The most common types of claim in the small claims track are:

compensation for faulty services provided, for example, by builders, dry cleaners or garages
compensation for faulty goods, for example, televisions or washing machines which go wrong
disputes between landlords and tenants, for example, rent arrears or compensation for not doing repairs
wages owed or money in lieu of notice.
If a case is complex, the judge may refer it to another track for a full hearing, even if it is below the financial limit of that track.

 

[worldlad]

Posting an affiliate link in your signature is not only VERY uncool - it is also strictly against forum rules.

I suggest you remove it pronto!

I suggest you checkout www.helpmechill.com and turn up ya speakers.

 

[colinsunderland]

I think you misunderstand what a Small Claims Court is:

It can be either civil or criminal, in most cases small claims deal with civil issues as per below.



The most common types of claim in the small claims track are:

compensation for faulty services provided, for example, by builders, dry cleaners or garages
compensation for faulty goods, for example, televisions or washing machines which go wrong
disputes between landlords and tenants, for example, rent arrears or compensation for not doing repairs
wages owed or money in lieu of notice.
If a case is complex, the judge may refer it to another track for a full hearing, even if it is below the financial limit of that track.

A criminal case won't be heard in a count court, and especially not in small claims. Regardless of that, your case isn't a criminal complaint, its a money claim, therefore what interlog says is 100% correct.

As I said earlier, and you seemed to ignore, this will be allocated to fast track unless there is some complex area of law that needs addressing, as it is under £10000 (I presume from your comments about it only being a small amount of money).

Just because you don't like an answer it doesn't mean its not right.

 

[worldlad]

A criminal case won't be heard in a count court, and especially not in small claims. Regardless of that, your case isn't a criminal complaint, its a money claim, therefore what interlog says is 100% correct.

As I said earlier, and you seemed to ignore, this will be allocated to fast track unless there is some complex area of law that needs addressing, as it is under £10000 (I presume from your comments about it only being a small amount of money).

Just because you don't like an answer it doesn't mean its not right.

My case isn't criminal it's civil I just pointing out a comment from another user stating small claims courts are for criminal cases and as above they deal with both. Thanks.

 

[colinsunderland]

My case isn't criminal it's civil I just pointing out a comment from another user stating small claims courts are for criminal cases and as above they deal with both. Thanks.

He was replying to your comment stating you can't go into any detail as it would be contempt of court, and pointed out you were wrong, you replied talking about how criminal cases heard in small claims (they aren't), and it wouldn't mean you were in contempt anyway as your's isn't a criminal matter.

If you don't want to go into detail or name the casino thats fine, but don't say its for xx reason when it isn't.

 

[jackanory2279]

Started a complaint with a large well known leading UK based gambling operator, due to a lack of safe guarding from there end. Raised a complaint and got fobbed off, so emailed the CEO by Googling CEO email addresses, within an hour or so received an email from a jobs worth sprouting the usual corporate nonsense but still wouldn't back down, then went via the Gambling Commission who are utterly weak and don't take on individual cases (they should be closed down), went to IBAS who refused to take on my complaint stating it's not in their remit....So I had a good win recently on another site so thought screw it I'm taking them to court, so they have the option of paying me what I believe I'm owed and deserved plus court charges or I'll end up in court with them.

Has anyone else done anything similar?

i wouldnt be surprised if it was william hill.. there casino and bonuses are plain sh ite

 

[worldlad]

i wouldnt be surprised if it was william hill.. there casino and bonuses are plain sh ite

lol close mate just not close enough.

 

[jackanory2279]

lol close mate just not close enough.

if its bet365 or specialy skybet i will be shocked.. betfair wouldnt surprise me .. they did me out of 1800 cash out when there sportsbook went down last year.. complained got nothin and i closed my account.

 

[worldlad]

if its bet365 or specialy skybet i will be shocked.. betfair wouldnt surprise me .. they did me out of 1800 cash out when there sportsbook went down last year.. complained got nothin and i closed my account.

Don't allow them to just get away with it, I read this all the time with players who just give up and allow these scumbag companies to keep thousands in winnings. In this life nothing is made easy any longer especially when dealing with gambling companies, services such as Paypal and the government. The key is keep fighting because a small investment of £30-£90 in taking them to court, emailing the CEO, calling the financial ombudsman, your local MP or mayor etc - Will make them back down.

 

[colinsunderland]

Also make sure you are taking action against the correct name, for example if it was Coral, you need to check you are going for the right name, they merged with Ladbrokes, so you need to make sure what the correct company name is and the correct address for service, otherwise the claim will fail on that, even if it gets past the no lba part.

 

[Webzcas]

The money owed isn't huge, took me around 20 minutes to put the claim through and cost £60.00, if they don't pay up then we'll have to attend court and it'll will cost them many many thousands so they might as well payout at the beginning.

If you are in the UK and have reached a point where you can't go any further with the casino, or governing body you can take them to court easily here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

98% of them back down quickly and pay up, as the media always take an interest in the cases, oh and the extra costs incurred during proceedings.

I have never considered or been in a position to do this as a player. But I seriously considered the same action against an affiliate program that owed me in excess of £3k. It would have given me immense delight sending the bailiffs in

However, thanks to being very vocal about them, on social media and the forums, plus my blacklist/rogue pages ranking for the casino and affiliate programs own brand, they relented and paid up in full. So court action wasn't required.

 

[worldlad]

Also make sure you are taking action against the correct name, for example if it was Coral, you need to check you are going for the right name, they merged with Ladbrokes, so you need to make sure what the correct company name is and the correct address for service, otherwise the claim will fail on that, even if it gets past the no lba part.

Cheers I did check via Companies House and the corporate part of the website. The company I'm suing have merged and have quite a few brands listed, if it was some tin pot Malta gaming site registered in Malta, i wouldn't bother but this is well known British company that should know better. Generally the CEO or directors who receive the email just send a quick response to the head of customer support to back down and pay out, on this occasion it didn't happen but I'm positive they will just payout the small amount I'm owed it will be far cheaper than getting their legal teams to attend court etc as I will also be inviting a few friends to the hearing from some National News Organisations as well so it's a double whammey for them.

 

[colinsunderland]

See the problem you are possibly going to have is, you are expecting them to back down and it not go to court, and while that does happen, it doesn't always.

If it were me you were coming after, I can guarantee a 5 minute application to strike out would succeed on the fact you haven't follow pre action protocols. I would be very surprised if the group concerned don't pick up on this, and if they are a massive firm like you seem to be suggesting, they will probably have in house counsel who the claim will get passed to, so won't cost them a penny as counsel will be salaried.

You might think bullying a firm into paying you is effective, but one day one will fight back and you could end up with quite a large legal bill if you aren't careful.

Anyway I'm out of this thread now, I've tried to help you by giving advice which you seem to have ignored, I hope you get sorted and they do pay you if it is justified, but be prepared for a notice to strike out the claim to drop through your door, have your response prepared as to why you didn't follow the protocols in place otherwise you could be liable for their costs too.

 

[slotmaster]

Taking companies/people to court seems to be the only way to handle issues nowadays.
People just can't be reasonable and resolve the issue by peaceful means; they must be forced.

Also this! It really is sad where people don't just do the right thing and fix their error's. This is where what others have said about companies not backing down even though OP thinks they will, They will not and OP I feel is going to be in big trouble. Saying that I think it's great he is fighting if he has been wronged but he is doing it the wrong way.

Just last year I had to keep fighting for month's and than finally look and tell the company about legal action and I said the same thing, It will cost you more to fight this than to just give my money back, Funny thing is I was with a lawyer talking about my next step when they phoned me and offered me to send my money back.

This will not happen all the time and I know I was very lucky they decided to right the wrong.

 

[worldlad]

I'm not really sure why you think what I'm doing is so wrong.

OK... So here is how I started my complaint:

1. Live Support
2. E-Mail requesting management attention
3. Final email to management not happy with previous response
4. Email to company CEO and Directors
5. Gambling Commission
6. IBAS

Didn't get anywhere with any of them, however, IBAS stated I should in my case go down the legal route. We have courts of law for a reason, that reason will act as a tribunal and will decide if the company has shown negligence or any potential laws have been breached.

Cost £60.00

Some of you might be just happy sitting back and losing money by allowing these scum bags to continue to get away with blue murder, but actually if we all stood up for ourselves a little bit more MAYBE just MAYBE they will think twice before trying to shaft us and treating customers so badly.

If it wasn't for strong minded people like me making a stand against an industry that has very little regulation and getting away with ruining peoples lives you wouldn't have some of the rights as you currently do.

 

[SlotGrinder]

I think everyone is pleased you are taking this action mate . They are just trying to see that you do it following the correct procedure so the casino's lawyers can't just throw the case out immediately on a technical issue like you failing to submit this letter before action correctly

 

[interlog]

I'm not really sure why you think what I'm doing is so wrong.

OK... So here is how I started my complaint:

1. Live Support
2. E-Mail requesting management attention
3. Final email to management not happy with previous response
4. Email to company CEO and Directors
5. Gambling Commission
6. IBAS

Didn't get anywhere with any of them, however, IBAS stated I should in my case go down the legal route. We have courts of law for a reason, that reason will act as a tribunal and will decide if the company has shown negligence or any potential laws have been breached.

Cost £30.00

Some of you might be just happy sitting back and losing money by allowing these scum bags to continue to get away with blue murder, but actually if we all stood up for ourselves a little bit more MAYBE just MAYBE they will think twice before trying to shaft us and treating customers so badly.

If it wasn't for strong minded people like me making a stand against an industry that has very little regulation and getting away with ruining peoples lives you wouldn't have some of the rights as you currently do.

I thought that it was £60 as per your earlier post?

 

[worldlad]

I thought that it was £60 as per your earlier post?

Total I paid was £60 just amended it.

 

[PatrickNess]

Good luck in your fight. I don't care if you're right or wrong, if you followed "any procedure" or not.

First. Courts are there for a reason.

Second. I hope it costs them a gasillion ton of money and reputation to whatever brand/firm/operator. It's just good sport. The goal of the best and the worst casinos is to fuck you in the name of entertainment. And they use every.single."legal".f**.dodgy.terms to do so.

The Final court case that should put this mafia industry down for good has yet to begin. When are casinos and games creators going to release the source codes ?

 

[worldlad]

Good luck in your fight. I don't care if you're right or wrong, if you followed "any procedure" or not.

First. Courts are there for a reason.

Second. I hope it costs them a gasillion ton of money and reputation to whatever brand/firm/operator. It's just good sport. The goal of the best and the worst casinos is to fuck you in the name of entertainment. And they use every.single."legal".f**.dodgy.terms to do so.

The Final court case that should put this mafia industry down for good has yet to begin. When are casinos and games creators going to release the source codes ?

Cheers mate for the support

 

[wronka13]

Rozpocząłem skargę do dużego, znanego wiodącego brytyjskiego operatora gier hazardowych, z powodu braku bezpieczeństwa z ich strony. Złożyłem skargę i zostałem zbyty, więc wysłałem e-mail do CEO, wpisując w Google adresy e-mail CEO, w ciągu godziny lub dwóch otrzymałem e-mail od Jobs Worth, który wypuścił zwykłe korporacyjne bzdury, ale nadal nie ustąpił, następnie przeszedłem przez Gambling Commission, która jest zupełnie słaba i nie zajmuje się indywidualnymi przypadkami (powinna zostać zamknięta), udałem się do IBAS, która odmówiła zajęcia się moją skargą, stwierdzając, że nie leży to w ich kompetencjach... Niedawno odniosłem więc dobrą wygraną na innej stronie, więc pomyślałem, że mam to w nosie, pozwę ich do sądu, więc mają możliwość zapłacenia mi tego, co uważam, że mi się należy i na co zasługuję, plus opłaty sądowe, albo skończę z nimi w sądzie.

Czy ktoś inny zrobił coś podobnego?

Hi

 

[dunover]

Hi

You have necromanced a 8-year old topic from a banned member.

You have translated his OP into Polish.

Please use English only here!

Read the forum rules and if you want to make an introductory post, please do so in a new thread!

Thanks