Slotland Fraudulent "Video Poker" Games

caruso said:
Slotland have completely ignored players' - and apparently now affiliates' - requests to change that grossly misleading "in addition to our slots..." page.

I consider Slotland a ROGUE casino - they are deliberately and wittingly deceiving their players.

I advocate all players stay away from Slotland.

They really are deceptive. One should not have to dig to find out their video poker isn't video poker. They should not even call it video poker or Jacks or Better. At a minimum it sould be called Jacks or Better Slots so one is very clear.

I will be interested in seeing how this plays out.

Stanford
 
Don't hold your breath waiting. Bryan contacted them TWELVE days ago. Nothing. Not a whisker has been altered. And why should they have to wait to be contacted by an influential portal owner to change the wording, anyway? It's clearly misleading. If they were on the level they'd realize the problem and correct it. They have no desire to, because this is the most profitable option. They know exactly what they're doing.

One little subtlety I missed: that line "In addition to our slot machines, we offer four great card games..." is in BOLD typeface. They're really bending over backwards in this act of player deception.

It doesn't really matter. As long as players remember that Slotland is a ROGUE casino that willfully misleads, deceives and cons its players, and that people should STAY AWAY from them, something positive has been achieved here.
 
caruso said:
One little subtlety I missed: that line "In addition to our slot machines, we offer four great card games..." is in BOLD typeface. They're really bending over backwards in this act of player deception.
This is a rare instance I think a charge back is justified. But.... no credit cards from the U.S. and if you could you get blackballed by the entire industry.

Best we can do is keep the thread bumped.

Stanford
 
I`d be happy enough if the JOB played like a slot.

Over 10 sessions stretching back 3 mths ive only been winning approx 20% and thats being generous.

The general pattern is lose 20 win 2 :what:

With many a 30 + non winning run maybe the odd push (ie pair)

I can take the odd session of amazing misfortune but this is consistant.

Slotland are either utterly rigged or i`m receiving some personal treatment.

Noticed klaus has hit the jackpot at slotland recently could this be the reason the casino is tighter than a knats @ss :)
 
this casino will go out of business sooner or later if they keep their state of the art :rolleyes: 'software'
 
I see Slotland won Top WebTV Site 04 in Gambling Online.

Listen to this quote about why:

"It bends over backwards to listen to player suggestions and concerns, because it knows that customer satisfaction is the key to survival in this industry." ;)

Sure they do.
 
I had refrained from doing any posting per Bryan's guidelines while I was in the middle of a pitch-a-bitch, but I don't believe Bryan is pursuing it any further at this point, and has not recovered any money for me. I understand he's a busy guy and I'm a relatively small problem, but it is still disappointing given that I was fleeced by this casino specifically because it was recommended by him.

However, I do note with some satisfaction that Bryan has apparently removed Slotland from his Reputable Casinos list sometime during the last month, so I at least accomplished something. It shuts the proverbial barn door too late for me, but at least Bryan is no longer adding sheep to Slotland's flock.

Anyway, I thought I'd post an e-mail I sent to Bryan during my pitch-a-bitch that might be of general interest to Slotland players, or anybody crazy enough to think they might want to become one. :) It is also applicable to those considering ANY gambling site with proprietary software.

Excerpt from my E-mail to Bryan follows...

----------

While I understand and respect that you try to see things from the casino's perspective as well as the players', I am frankly puzzled as to why you seem to be giving Slotland so much benefit of the doubt as compared to other casinos that I've seen you discuss in the past.

If Slotland was YOUR casino, would you hide the critical video poker information in a "technical tips" section? Even if it was not intended to be buried (which stretches the imagination), would you have waited (at least) several months from becoming aware that players were being misled to do anything about it?

Or after receiving irrefutable evidence that it was misleading players (from my post on your forum, and others' replies to it) would you wait around for your web designer to return rather than figuring out a way to temporarily provide SOME disclaimer (after all HTML ain't rocket science)?

Finally, would you put a blatant lie about conforming to Nevada Gaming Rules right on the game screen?

As a former customer-oriented business owner myself, I sure know that's not how I would operate. And if I inadvertently created such a problem, I would THANK the person letting me know, refund their money, and immediately fix the problem. It's a no-brainer if you truly want to operate an honest business.

As far as the people affected, despite the immense popularity :) of your site, that represents only a tiny fraction of players. And players that actually read or replied to my thread an even smaller fraction. We have no idea how many people have complained to Slotland directly. And we don't know how many people found out the game was not what they expected, and took no further action.

And even more important and frightening, we don't know how many people have played -- or CONTINUE to play -- these "video poker" games assuming they work like a real video poker game and have NEVER found out differently. I almost didn't find out myself.

When a good video poker player plays Slotland games assuming it works like a real video poker game... they get SCREWED. Badly. Just how badly, I'm not sure because we don't know how Slotland decides if you get the jackpot.

The problem is if you play the game "correctly" thinking that the natural royal pays off as it should, you make all kinds of horrible plays. I even bought a copy of Video Poker Calculator 2.0 (gamblecraft.com) specifically for my play at Slotland. The software allows you to enter custom payoff tables and get correct strategy on specific hands.

Normally in Double Joker Poker it is correct to hold a pair in favor of two to a royal flush. But with a big jackpot, just the opposite is correct. At the time I was playing ($60K+ jackpot), holding two to a royal was calculated by VPCalc to usually return something like 105% and the pair only 75%.

Being a smart (d'oh!) player I repeatedly threw away the pair -- which was of course throwing money away since the royal does not pay out at correct odds. Getting three to a royal happens less frequently but can result in even more dramatic errors. Even just ONE to a royal, which of course happens very frequently, usually results in a strategy error of about 5% expected return. With a larger jackpot (it is dramatically higher now at $97K) then the errors are even worse.

The net effect: Slotland's jackpot lures video poker players into playing a bad pay table to start with (98.1% on Wildheart, when 99.5% or better is readily available elsewhere) and then causes them to play it poorly on top of that. The results are dramatic, as evidenced by my abysmal 78% return. Multiply the poor odds and poor play by a $15 max bet, then multiply that by thousands of bets, and thousands of players, and you are talking about a HUGE ill-gotten cash cow.

So while you are correct that I had SOME chance of winning the jackpot (I hope), I paid an extraordinarily heavy price for that chance. I would have been far better off playing one of their true slot machines.

Even if a player is aware the royal flush is artificially controlled, confusion still reigns as to how a particular hand get blessed with a jackpot win. If you're destined to win, does it just deal you a pat royal flush? If so, does that mean that drawing ANY cards to a royal flush is a waste of money, because it ain't going to happen? Or is some other mysterious method used?

There is really NO intelligent way to play the game with the available information, and as such the game should not even be offered in the current state. How can a casino legitimately offer a game where the player can't determine the risks and rewards?

And frankly, I think artificially controlling the cards in this instance casts doubt elsewhere as well. What is to prevent them from keeping non-jackpot royal flushes from happening as often as they should? Who would possibly know (other than Slotland) that a royal only pays off 80% as often as normal? Are you going to play 500,000 hands to find out?

Or let's say their marketing research shows that a bigger jackpot attracts substantially more players. What's to stop them from artificially preventing ANY jackpot win until it's over $50,000, for example?

Which leads me to my final concern... should a proprietary software company be on your recommended list at ALL? It seems that Slotland is on your recommended list primarily on the strength of their reliable payouts and customer service.

But... put on your cynical cap for a minute and consider this -- if you were running a crooked casino, and were doing it smart, a good strategy would be to just slightly alter the odds in your favor. Let's say skim an extra 1% or so from all your players by randomly re-dealing some cards now and then when a player would have won. Or any of a number of methods that would disguise what is happening. That extra 1% results in a HUGE payout right on the bottom line.

Then to keep the scam going, offer lots of nice bonuses, reliable payouts, and good customer service. You come across as one of the good guys and laugh all the way to the bank. It's very difficult for a player or group of players to prove a 1% drop in payout.

I'm not accusing Slotland of that, although they have (in my opinion) deliberately misled, or at least grossly neglected to inform, their video poker players. And that fact alone accomplishes some of the same monetary gains that a purely crooked casino would.

But if Slotland (or any proprietary software site) *wanted* to be crooked, it would be trivial to do so. And trivial to hide the ill-gotten gains, even if they were in a jurisdiction that cared about that.

It is a scary thought. More scary, it seems to me, than concerns you have had in the past about other casinos such as RTG licensees. At least with those casinos, any problems are evident to players (casinos not paying) instead of hidden (rigged games).

I know that personally my experience at Slotland has ensured that I will never again play at any proprietary software casino. There are enough risks associated with gambling when you know the game is fair!
 
They have added the disclaimer at the bottom of the "rules" page, so it is one less level of buried.

Of course not many people feel the need to clink on a link to "See full instructions for more details containing poker rules", since that gives no clue as to anything untoward, and since video poker games work the same everywhere -- except for Slotland.

And if you did look at the rules page, you'd probably only glance at it since it's all standard stuff except for one little thing at the bottom.

Of course it would be TRIVIAL to disclose the "jackpot" rules right there on the main game page. The fact that they don't, even after that was suggested, is clear evidence that they don't want to.

They also still continue to call it "The Classic Video Poker Game" and claim it "conforms to Nevada Gaming Rules", etc., which is of course blatantly false.

So to answer your question... in a word, no they haven't really improved their disclosure. The only positive thing that came from my $100's of losses was that they are no longer listed in Reputable Casinos on this site. And hopefully some people have seen this thread and avoided them because of it.

You gotta admit they've got a good scam going... trick people into playing what they think is a very low casino edge or positive expectation game, when in fact they are playing this bizarre hybrid of some unknown but high casino edge.

As I mentioned in a previous post, even if you realize that the Royal Flush is artificially controlled, it's impossible to play this game "correctly" without knowing how it's controlled. Do you hold three to a jackpot royal in favor of a pair of aces? Who knows? Without knowing that, you could easily be giving the casino a much higher edge than their slot machines.

Scamland, man. :)
 
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chalupa said:
Scamland, man. :)
Yep, I'm sure they'd have been under more pressure to change it if it wasn't for the fact that so many affiliates have a vested interest in them - seeing as they pay out 25% of deposits, regardless of whether the player wins/loses or even makes a charge back (though if you played 'VP' here thinking it was VP this is one casino where you'd be completely justified in cancelling your deposit!).
 
largeeyes said:
I felt this thread really needed a bump. A friend of mine was playing there and had absolutely no idea that this wasn't really video poker. Like was said through this thread, they bend over backwards to convince you it IS video poker. Has ANYTHING been done to resolve this deception? :what:

I'm quite a bit late to add to this thread, but I recollect when I heard of this site - mainly due to its advertisement of being able to win a jackpot while playing blackjack.

After close inspection, I discovered that the blackjack was basically a variation of slots.

Why did I read so carefully? Because obviously offering a jackpot on a blackjack game throws the house edge off - and why would any casino do that?

Chalupa began this thread by referring to the large jackpot for VP - which supposedly should have yielded a return in excess of 100%. That alone should have sent warning bells sounding in his head, BEFORE he wagered $1500.

Just as many here caution others to carefully read the T&Cs - ostensibly because no one gives anything away - then when something looks too good to be true... it probably isn't, and warrants further investigation.
 
dickens1298 said:
which supposedly should have yielded a return in excess of 100%. That alone should have sent warning bells sounding in his head
Not necessarily... over 100% payoff in a progressive slot or video poker machine is not uncommon (in honest land-based casinos). The jackpot is built on player contributions over time, it's not coming out of the pockets of the casino.

I was also lulled by the fact that Slotland was (at the time) on Casinomeister's Reputable Casinos list with no caveat about funky games.

Even so, yes, I should have been more careful, and you can be certain I am now. :) But that is still no excuse for Slotland to be deliberately deceptive.

As I mentioned (I think) in a previous post, I would recommend that anyone considering playing ANY casino with proprietary software have a REALLY good reason to trust them completely. They could scam you in ways far more subtle than this -- and good luck trying to prove it.
 
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I was referring to the following quote in your initial post:

"Then I ran a few numbers, and got excited to see that the long-term expected payoff was well over 100% due to the size of the jackpot."



chalupa said:
Not necessarily... over 100% payoff in a progressive slot or video poker machine is not uncommon (in honest land-based casinos). The jackpot is built on player contributions over time, it's not coming out of the pockets of the casino.

I was also lulled by the fact that Slotland was (at the time) on Casinomeister's Reputable Casinos list with no caveat about funky games.

Even so, yes, I should have been more careful, and you can be certain I am now. :) But that is still no excuse for Slotland to be deliberately deceptive.

As I mentioned (I think) in a previous post, I would recommend that anyone considering playing ANY casino with proprietary software have a REALLY good reason to trust them completely. They could scam you in ways far more subtle than this -- and good luck trying to prove it.
 
dickens1298 said:
I was referring to the following quote in your initial post:

"Then I ran a few numbers, and got excited to see that the long-term expected payoff was well over 100% due to the size of the jackpot."
Yes... and again, that is not terribly unusual in an honest casino.

The next time you're in a Vegas or Reno casino and see some progressive video poker machines jammed with a bunch of intent-looking locals, look at the size of the jackpot and run the numbers. :)
 
I stick to cards - and the Venetian in Las Vegas, but I DO see what you mean.

:)

chalupa said:
Yes... and again, that is not terribly unusual in an honest casino.

The next time you're in a Vegas or Reno casino and see some progressive video poker machines jammed with a bunch of intent-looking locals, look at the size of the jackpot and run the numbers. :)
 
Slotland Video Poker - good news for players

Hi to all Casinomeister members and Slotland players. My name is Martin Smith and I am an official representative of Slotland - I work in the marketing department. We've just made major changes to the texts published on the Jacks or Better game page
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, to reflect the player concerns expressed in this thread, and to make the information as accurate as possible. If you have any comments to these changes, you are welcome to post here.
 
SlotMarty,

It's good of you to respond to this thread, but I can't really see how you've improved anything. It still reads as though it's video poker unless you scroll down to the very bottom of 'full instructions'. The paragraph below has "THE VIDEO POKER GAME" above it - despite not referring to a video poker game.

SLOTLAND casino proudly presents the Jacks Or Better, the game based on the most popular video poker machine ever. No download needed, just open an account and start to play immediately!
Why don't you replace 'the game' with 'a slot machine'? (& remove 'the' from before Jacks or Better!)?

As it stands it's still going to confuse/trick players into thinking it's a normal game of video poker (with the odds that implies), rather than a slot machine where the pay out can be anything you choose.
 
Changed what? Since the initial changes that were made, I see nothing different:

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"We offer six different slot machines and three stylish card games at the moment."

This implies that the card games are NOT slot machines. You can argue the semantics of that to the ends of the earth, but the fact remains: to say that the card games are "additional" to the slots implies that they are NOT slots.

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"Our pay table for this game is very generous"

Again, you can argue the semantics of that because the paytable is ostensibly "full pay", but since we know this game is a 95% slot, the payout of this "paytable" equates to a 6/5 JOB game - the worst out there, and the LEAST generous. So in fact, what you "claim" is the direct OPPOSITE of the truth.

Everything in the SL descriptions is marketing hype and very, very dishonest. However, I acknowledge that changes were made a while back to make it a bit less flagrantly misleading than before.
 
SlotMarty, I'm happy to see that you are revisiting this. I would be even happier if you revisited my personal situation and reimbursed me for some of my outstanding losses. :)

The Jacks Or Better screen is improved -- most importantly, you removed the statement that your games "conform to the Nevada Gaming Rules".

(However, I note that statement IS still on your home page. Since Nevada gaming rules require video card games to act like real cards, you should remove this false statement from everywhere on your site.)


Unfortunately the Jacks Or Better game page is still not clear enough. The critically important note about Jackpot wins is still buried in a page reached by clicking a link "for more details containing poker rules". The vast majority of players visiting your site already know how to play video poker, so they have no reason to click on that link.

Simply put, f you are going to have a "video poker" game that acts like no other on the planet, you need to be explicit about it.

As a minimum, that means putting the disclaimer about the jackpot where it belongs -- on the pay table on the main playing page. I suggested this waaaay back in my first post and it would be trivial to do. See the attached screen mock-up as an example.

Note that the same issue applies to WildHeart and SpaceJack, and could be very easily solved in the same fashion.
 
Hi Vesuvio, Caruso, Chalupa, and all other Casinomeister and Slotland members!

Thanks for all your thoughts and feedback. I will try to sort all your suggestions out and make a single list of proposed changes. It won't be easy though, as you seem to contradict with each other on a few points. I can almost guarantee that you won't be all 100% satisfied at the same time; what fits one of you, might be totally unacceptable for the other two. Anyway, I will do my best and I will suggest your proposed changes to our management and try to win my (and your!) argument. I will definitely keep you informed here at Casinomeister.
 
SlotMarty said:
It won't be easy though, as you seem to contradict with each other on a few points.
I can't see any contradictions - it's simply there are so many things wrong at present we picked up on different issues! (e.g. I'd missed the 'generous pay table' lie that Caruso spotted)

All you need to do is make it 100% clear to players that what you offer is a slot machine based on video poker and not a video poker game. That should be extremely simple to do and was suggested many months ago. The only reasonable explanation for the delay is that you see this as a way of fradulently attracting players who don't want to play slots into your casino.
 
Ditto what Vesuvio said. No contradictions here. The more disclosure and honesty the better.

Marty, I'm going to take you at face value and assume you are sincere, and wish you the best of luck presenting it to management.

But look, this is all really pretty silly. It's ridiculously obvious that the site is deceptive. And it's equally clear that management has known about it forever. And that they don't care about making it right for the players, except probably for the fact that they have taken some heat here and have been removed from the Casinomeister recommended list. They have dragged their heels and made only modest changes hoping that would be enough to take the heat off.

I believe the reason why Slotland does NOT want to be above-board is that the "video poker" games are a huge money-maker for them, suckering in players who would never play a high casino edge game otherwise.

Further, I would bet that when these "video poker" games are played at max coins going for the jackpot, that Slotland makes an even higher percentage than on their normal slot machines.

This is because a good video poker player will happily throw away paying hands or better drawing hands to draw for the inflated royal flush jackpot, incorrectly assuming the royal flush is paid at true odds. Since the lesser-paying hands are far more common and account for about 97% of the payout in video poker, throwing away these hands has a HUGE adverse affect on the player's results.

So Slotland attracts a good player they would otherwise not get, and since that player thinks he's playing a positive expectation game he continues to pump money in despite short-term losses... while all along he is playing a game that's even WORSE than a slot machine! What a deal for Slotland!!


Look... I believe if Slotland was truly ethical that they would have thanked me for taking the time to bring this to their attention months ago, reimbursed me for my losses, and immediately modified the web site. As a business owner, that's what I would have done if I found out I was inadvertently deceiving my customers.

So I'll believe Slotland's sincerity when I see it on their site, and when they make me whole for my losses incurred while playing under their deception.
 
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I havent watched this issue close enough I had erroneously assumed that it was headed to resolution late last year. It is now clear to me that the issue has not been resolved and that the necessary measures to put an end to the predicament have not been taken.

As such we are in the process of removing any and all referral links to Slotland and would request that our colleagues do the same.
 
That's a commendably honourable stance to take, CG - particularly when you look at the Slotland affiliate programme on offer, and, presumably, the dollars you'll be turning your back on:

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Slotland pay their affiliates 25% OF DEPOSITS. Is this a record?

For every $100 a player deposits, Slotland hands over $25 straight away.

This tells you the kind of money-farm this is.

Anyway, kudos to the SL rep for bumping this evil-titled thread back from the wasteland, although I'm also confused by his suggestion that there was any player-disagreement on show - I see blanket consensus.
 
from "gambling commission" requirements page

From the Gambling Commission

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Qualifications Summary

The 10 abiding factors of the Gambling Commission Standards which monitor randomness, fairness and ability and guarantee to pay winners are listed below.

1. Consistent random mathematical testing of software pass rate.
2. Posted rules of each casino member are accurately followed.
3. Each free trial version of software must offer the same rules and odds of paid version.
4. Payout odds and percentages must be true at all times.
5. Game device simulations (cards or dice) must statistically react exactly like real world version of device.
6. Wagers must be honored despite power failures or player interruptions.
7. Ample cash reserves must be sustained in order to pay winners.
8. Player disputes must be addressed quickly and accurately.
9. Player transaction logs will be thoroughly maintained.
10. Casino representatives must be available to discuss player account activity.

I don't know if anybody takes the Gambling Commission seriously (it looks like they haven't updated their homepage since 2000) but this is the "independant organization" which Slotland claims validates the fair gaming credentials. It seems to me that Slotland violates at least rule 5 on its JOB, SpaceJack and other card games. Why would the Gambling Commission continue to certify them if they clearly are in violation of ones it parameters? Or is that a nieve question? I am new to here and have been losing what I consider to be an excessive amount on slots at Slotland. I am in the middle of an inquiry with them so I won't go into that too much yet. I like Slots despite the generally horrible returns. I'm willing to play at 93 or 95% but not 85%.
 
jamiester said:
I like Slots despite the generally horrible returns. I'm willing to play at 93 or 95% but not 85%.
Welcome to the forum! Hope you stick around.

If you like slots, why don't you play at one of the Meister's reputable sites - a good MG for example?
Slotland has always struck me as 'a bit dodgy' at best!
I have successfully cleared several 100%+ "slots only" bonuses at MG's, and come out on top! :cool:

Good luck, have fun and be careful! :thumbsup:
 
jamiester said:
...I don't know if anybody takes the Gambling Commission seriously ...
Unfortunately it's merely a portal that doesn't do too much. If it were a real "Gambling Commission" then they would have more of a pressence at some of the industry events that are held world wide. I've been hitting up just about every event that matters for the past five years, and I've never met these guys. I'm not saying that they haven't helped players in dire straights; I'm just saying they are not a commission that regualtes anything.

In the early days of online gambling, this website was marketed as a commission and a lot of casinos bought off on them being some regulatory entity. But they are not. It's just some guys running a portal.

Unfortunately Slotland (and a number of others) thought that the GC's logos looked cool and put them up. And they still are there.

As for the Video Poker at Slotland, it's a slot machine and this should be made clear in their t&c's. They are members of the forum so perhaps they can explain this as well.
 
Do these guys rig their games totally? Or is it just the jackpot?

The $5 Jacks or Better pays $4,000 for a $5 bet for a Royal Flush. This is a full pay 9/6 game, which has a casino edge of 0.46%. Does this count as a jackpot, which is rigged.

Or is the game fair if you are not playing the $10 needed to get the jackpot?
 
Slotland games are not rigged. People win the jackpot all the time.

The discussion here was about all the games being slots. There is a game that looks like video poker that operates like a slot, with the same probabilities as slots. There is also a game that looks like an odd version of BJ that is a slot.

All the games at Slotland are slots. The slots work just fine.

If you are playing at Slotland, you are playing slots. Period. And they pay out just fine.
 
dominique said:
All the games at Slotland are slots.
That's the problem, though. Slotland refuse to state that the game's a slot and continue to mislead players into thinking it's video poker. They've also never attempted to explain how you can have random cards and a non-random frequency of royal flushes. Here are a few excerpts from an e-mail discussion I had with them recently (note Robert calls it both a slot and video poker):
This is Robert, the Supervisor of Slotland Customer Service. In our opinion, we provide our players with all sufficient informations about our games. There is no need to change the game descriptions again. Our JacksOrBetter game is a variety of video poker with a possibility to hit the progressive Jackpot. We do not hide, that the probability of the Jackpot is not natural. We are fair and honest company.
The cards are dealt randomly, but only the probability of hitting the Jackpot is not natural. Our JacksOrBetter game has payback of 98% as it is stated on the slot machine.
All the necessary information about our games are on our site already. To be honest, we have had really only few complaints about the possibility of hitting the Jackpot on our video poker game.
So they'll just continue cheating players into thinking they offer VP. In a better world they'd be shunned by all decent affiliates, but unfortunately they offer one of the best deals around (paying a large cut of the deposit rather than losses - wonder how they can afford that? :rolleyes: ), so they're not going to disappear so easily.
 
The cards are dealt randomly, but only the probability of hitting the Jackpot is not natural. Our JacksOrBetter game has payback of 98% as it is stated on the slot machine.
It is impossible only to change the probability of getting a royal flush. They are also forgetting that video poker also involves strategy, and without knowing the exact probabilities, the player cannot play optimal strategy. Until they give a full explanation, I will recommend that everybody avoid this game.
 
dominique said:
Slotland games are not rigged. People win the jackpot all the time.

The discussion here was about all the games being slots. There is a game that looks like video poker that operates like a slot, with the same probabilities as slots. There is also a game that looks like an odd version of BJ that is a slot.

All the games at Slotland are slots. The slots work just fine.

If you are playing at Slotland, you are playing slots. Period.

Well that's a very big statement, and it's certainly not stated on their site.

If it's true, they are deceiving a good number of players, as they certainly describe their games as Video Poker, not as slots.

At
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it says
THE VIDEO POKER GAME.

That's right, video poker, not slots.

In not what place on that page is their the word slot.

If this is a pull tab or slot, they are not saying that.

On the page linked from there, it says

Please note that all Slotland games share the same mechanism which determines the jackpot win. Therefore, the probability of hitting the jackpot combination on JacksOrBetter is not natural but controlled by this shared random mechanism in the same way as slot machines' wins.

And on their FAQ they state
We offer six different slot machines and three stylish card games at the moment.

So they have six SLOTS, and three card games, which by implication are NOT slots.

In addition to our slot machines, we offer four great card games:

I assume you are an affiliate of these people, and perhaps have more information, but their site describes these games as Video Poker, not slots, with the only difference being that the jackpot payout does not pay according to true probability.

If there is more to it than that, then they are blatantly cheating and deceiving their players.

The Jacks or Better page above shows payouts as follows:

$0.50/$1 9/6, 250 coin RF
$3 9/6, 333 coin RF
$5 9/6 800 coin RF
$10 9/6 jackpot RF

For the 800 coin game, the return is around 99.54% with perfect strategy. This is a profitable game for a casino, as people don't play perfect strategy. With full pay JoB, the RF represents 1.98% of the overall return.

However, you are suggesting that there is more to it than they describe on the site, and the non-jackpot games are also slots. If this is the case they are ripping people are off.

This is important to know, as their $5 game is described as a fair game of video poker.

I am not interested in the silly blackjack game, as the eyecatching 2-1 for blackjacks is more than offset by the fact there is no splitting allowed, and if you double or hit you must do so to all three hands at once. This game already has a large house edge without any further rigging required.

But if the video poker is a slot, and the return of anything other than the Royal Flush on the $10 game does not represent a fair deck of cards, then they are cheating.
 
Vesuvio said:
In a better world they'd be shunned by all decent affiliates, but unfortunately they offer one of the best deals around (paying a large cut of the deposit rather than losses - wonder how they can afford that? :rolleyes: ), so they're not going to disappear so easily.

Exactly - I think I mentioned that somewhere. Slotland has such high affiliate exposure for just that reason - one quarter cut of all deposits. Ain't too many affiliates gonna drop them any time soon (and kudos to Bryan for taking the lead in that department).

thelawnet said:
So they have six SLOTS, and three card games, which by implication are NOT slots.

This isn't new, it's been hashed out time and time again. If you're looking for change, you're wasting your time. There is absolutely no reason for Slotland to change anything - they and their affy partners are creaming it. All that can be done is remind those few who read the boards about the truth of the scam, and keep this thread alive and visible.
 
GrandMaster said:
It is impossible only to change the probability of getting a royal flush. They are also forgetting that video poker also involves strategy, and without knowing the exact probabilities, the player cannot play optimal strategy. Until they give a full explanation, I will recommend that everybody avoid this game.

I supose if was truely "random" apart from the royal flush hit, they could deal a 2nd random card if the royal card was selected by the RNG. But as you correctly say this would affect strategy in loads of situations.

Id bet a dollar it is totally un-random in the first place anyway :lolup: :lolup:
 
Geez guys, how many times do we ascertain this?

Slotland offers slots only.

All their games are based on the same mechanism - a slot mechanism.

All their games also share one jackpot, which pays out very frequently.

Slotland is for slots only. You can play all kinds of odd slots with interesting features, including an odd BJ like slot and a videopoker like slot.

Slotland is one of the very few gaming sites that operate on HTML, which is the only type software many browsers can use. It looks slow and heavy handed to most of us, it is a life saver to many others.

But Slotland is for slots, period.
 
dominique said:
Geez guys, how many times do we ascertain this?

As many times as it takes for them to post the truth on their website.

dominique said:
Slotland offers slots only.

All their games are based on the same mechanism - a slot mechanism.

That's not what they say on their website. They say they have slots PLUS card games.

They do not say that their card games are based on a slot mechanism. They do say that the jackpot is based on a slot mechanism, and I can accept this as a valid business decision, as you can't offer $100k jackpots without this.

But this is very different from the whole game being based on a slot mechanism (i.e. not reflecting the actual odds of a given card being dealt). In particular, the $5 game appears to offer 99.54% payout. If this is not the case they are wilfully deceiving their players.

Slotland is for slots only. You can play all kinds of odd slots with interesting features, including an odd BJ like slot and a videopoker like slot.

Slotland is one of the very few gaming sites that operate on HTML, which is the only type software many browsers can use. It looks slow and heavy handed to most of us, it is a life saver to many others.

But Slotland is for slots, period.

Ok.

So why do they repeatedly talk about slots AND video poker, rather than talking about a jacks or better SLOT?

There are two possible scenarios here:

one, they do indeed offer fair video poker games, except when you play the $10 games, when the royal flush payout does not truly reflect the odds. This would be acceptable and accords with what they describe on their site.

or

two, as you say, their video poker games are in fact slots, and all hands do not pay according to true probability. If this is the case they are wilfully deceiving players, as they simply do not state this on their website, as you suggest that games are based on a 'slot mechanism', and I can't see how in good conscience you can endorse them.
 
You may try your luck at the Jacks Or Better, the game based on the most classic video poker ever. Our pay table for this game is very generous - you do not need to place a maximum bet to get a bonus pay out on the Royal Flush although a maximum bet with a Royal Flush WILL win the jackpot!

(Jacks or Better: Minimum bet = $0.50; maximum bet = $10.00)


Striking Sevens machine is similar to popular Deuces Wild video poker. In this game Sevens are WILD and replace any other card to allow you to make the best possible poker hand. All winning hands are offered the chance to DOUBLE the win. If you play your hand right, you can strike it rich with this great game!

(Striking7s: Minimum bet = $0.50; maximum bet = $10.00)


For a little more excitement and to triple your chance for the BIG win, enjoy exciting triple play action at the WildHeart based on Double Joker video poker machine. It may seem like a jungle out there, but you can be King of the Jungle with one good deal!

(Wild Heart: Minimum bet = $0.25; maximum bet = $15.00)


Sophisticated gamblers will love the SpaceJack which is a video variation of the most popular table game of all times, Blackjack. Blackjack pays 3 to 1 to the player, even when the dealer has blackjack! Three blackjacks with bets placed on all 3 wins the progressive jackpot!

(Space Jack: Minimum bet = $1.00; maximum bet = $60.00)

The slots are based on these games and certain combinations pay the progressive jackpot.
 
dominique said:
The slots are based on these games and certain combinations pay the progressive jackpot.
There you go again - you use the word "slots", but they don't (one game of video poker can be based on another, after all). You missed out the line above the descriptions:
In addition to our slot machines, we offer four great card games
You say their games work like slots, but they're only willing to admit that "with card games, the probability of hitting the jackpot combination is not natural", implying that apart from the jackpot the games play naturally, logically impossible as that is.

It's a nice affiliate program, but you can't possibly support them in good faith while they're deliberately misleading their players. Though to give you some credit, I notice that on your site you've actually changed their text - do you have approval for the final line added on to the descriptions, or is it your interpretation? e.g.
You may try your luck at the Jacks Or Better, the game based on the most classic video poker ever. Our pay table for this game is very generous - you do not need to place a maximum bet to get a bonus pay out on the Royal Flush although a maximum bet with a Royal Flush WILL win the jackpot! The mechanism behind Slotland card games is the same as slots.
Perhaps if that found its way back to their site it'd be approaching acceptability, though it'd seem easier to abandon the term "card games" if the "card games" are "slots".
 
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just a note...

I was told by Robert that about 5% of the 98% return is dedicated to the progressive jackpot. So, for people who don't hit the jackpot, they can expect about a 93% return on all the games (He actually said players average 92 -94%).
I should also note that Slotland will include the bonuses they give you (signup, 10% after each $1000) as part of your WINNINGS from slot play. The only reason they would do such a thing is to try to trick players into thinking that they are experiencing a greater return than they actually are. Robert denies it, but I feel they include these bonuses as part of their advertised 98% payout. (Which they say is certified, but I have yet to find someone who will claim to have certified it).
 
jamiester said:
I was told by Robert that about 5% of the 98% return is dedicated to the progressive jackpot. So, for people who don't hit the jackpot, they can expect about a 93% return on all the games (He actually said players average 92 -94%).
I should also note that Slotland will include the bonuses they give you (signup, 10% after each $1000) as part of your WINNINGS from slot play. The only reason they would do such a thing is to try to trick players into thinking that they are experiencing a greater return than they actually are. Robert denies it, but I feel they include these bonuses as part of their advertised 98% payout. (Which they say is certified, but I have yet to find someone who will claim to have certified it).

If this is true then they are blatantly cheating and deciving their players.

The Video Poker games should return around 98% EXCLUDING the royal flush, and more than this when you count the royal flush.

If the game is indeed rigged in other ways, they are still deliberately setting out to deceive.

There is nothing wrong with offering slots - Microgaming do it, Cryptologic do it, etc. - but passing off a slot as a video poker game, albeit one where the Royal Flush does not pay naturally, when it is in fact not video poker at all is cheating.

If they were no trying to cheat and mislead people who would not otherwise play their, why would they not simply say 'Our Jacks or Better SLOT'. It's really simple to do, and no-one would complain....

Basically if you run a slots-only casino, it is impossible to be accused of cheating, as you can make your slots pay however you like.

If they are not playing fair video poker, they are no different from the other cheating rigged casinos & software providers and should be treated as rogues accordingly.
 
rigged?

I have a particular hard spot in my heart for slotland. I had some huge issues with them in the past and cancelled my account last year. There were at least 2 or 3 times when I e-mailed them with complaints of how I had been misled (particularily about Jacks or better randomness as a POKER CARD game, as opposed to a SLOT game) or the results of my play- to which I received the responses already mentioned in this thread re. fairness. I can only surmise in an effort to keep me as a player, I received a bonus a couple of times where once I began playing, I just couldn't lose ("hush money"??)... until a certain point where everything went south. I cashed out once I realized (sometimes after several days of great winning play like I never had experienced) I was on the lose cycle. When I pointed this out to them, i.e. how odd that I should have won on such bonuses, I was basically accused of not being capable of graciousness or might just be paranoid. I do believe slotland can manipulate their "randomness", even on an individual basis. I would love to see a full audit of their operation. Having customer service reps who are really really nice isn't a good reason to keep depositing but God bless you if you do.
 
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