Slot Statistics - Critiques Requested

[binary128]

Hello. For those who don't know me, my name is Chris Colby and I am the President of Galewind Software Corp.

It seems so much longer than 7 months ago (17 September 2011) when I started a thread titled Return to Player - Critiques Requested.

In a nutshell, the reason for my starting that thread was to request feedback (criticism, suggestions, shredding) from Casinomeister members about a new page for our Help system that we had just finished writing. This new Help page was our attempt to create "... a file that will (definitively?) address the subject of Return to Player (RTP) Percentage."

Although the focus of that first post, and of the linked Help file, was RTP data, it took less than one day before spiderlegz posted:

You could list the volatility of the games, especially for Slots.

My response:

spiderlegz - Re: volatility.

We thought about it.

We decided against it because we wanted to try and keep the scope of the page focused on the issue of "Return to Player". Even then, we still found it necessary to wade into House Edge, "statistically perfect" game play, Element of Risk, etc.

I agree that the issue of volatility is important for slot games (versus, say, Video Poker games). If we wanted to discuss how volatility and House Edge combine to create the player experience for slots, I think that would best be done on a separate page.

(The request for Volatility data, or Standard Deviation data, was brought up several more times by other members throughout the thread. My response to each was pretty much the same as what I've quoted above to spiderlegz.)

So, anyway, spiderlegz, finally ... Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) . (Or perhaps only a part, albeit a significant part, of it.) It took us 7 months to do it - it moved from the freezer to the fridge to a small pot on a back burner. But ultimately, mission (mostly) accomplished.

(BTW - when you open this page in a full browser window, it may look a little funky. That's because it was designed to load into the much smaller Help system popup window. In that small window, it looks just fine.)

The title of this thread is "Critiques Requested". Once again we are looking for input/criticism/suggestions from Casinomeister members. The numbers are what they are - IMO there is nothing there to criticize. (Unless we made a formatting error with one of the numbers, in which case I'd appreciate knowing about it.)

The area that we think, or more accurately that we know, needs help is within the Definition of Terms section. There are only 3 terms included here: Standard Deviation, Variance, and Line Pay Hit Frequency.

We think that we have some pretty decent content for both Standard Deviation and Line Pay Hit Frequency. For Variance - we have absolutely nothing. As in squat, zip, nada. Thus my statement that this mission is "mostly accomplished".

So, I ask Casinomeister members - please give us some words. What does Variance mean to you? If there is a range, for example Low, Medium and High, then what are the cutoff numbers? Is 20 Low? Is 50 Low? Or 100?

If anyone is aware of Variance numbers from other software suppliers, then these might be helpful to include in the discussion.


BEWARE - eye-glaze zone ahead.


Here is the equation used to calculate the Variance. It was applied to sample runs of approximately 20 million rounds for each of our slots. The margin of error for our reported Variance values is in the range of +/- 1.5.


(S2/WRB^2/WRC) - (S1/WRB/WRC)^2

WRC = Wagered round count. Example: For a Free Spin win slot, this is the number of non-free spin rounds.

WRB = Wagered round bet amount. For a line bet of $1 on all lines of a 20 line slot, this value would be 20.

S1 = Sum(Paid Amount). Example: A $20 round "Pays" $6. Technically, this is a $14 loss, but for this calculation it is summed as a $6 win.

S2 = Sum(Paid Amount Squared). The $6 amount above would be summed here as 36. This gets tricky with a Free Spins slot. For a series of Free Spins, the paid amounts are first summed, then squared, and this value is what is then added to the S2 total. That is, the Free Spin amounts are not squared separately, and each value added to the S2 total. They are first added together, this sum is then squared, and the result is added to the S2 total.

The Standard Deviation values were then calculated as the square root of the Variance values.


I could look up Variance in Wikipedia, but that doesn't give me what I think Slot Players in a Casino are looking for. Maybe Casinomeister members don't know either. But I think it would be great if we could somehow put some human meaning to these numbers.

Thanks in advance.

Chris

 

[smcinoz]

Be interesting to see the responses from slot math wiz's on this site.

 

[TheLastCylon]

I don't think that there is any reasonable way to apply human terms to variance. No one is publishing them. As such, making comparisons is difficult. I don't mean that to take away from your publishing of the data, though. Truly, I think it's fantastic. As near as I can tell, you are the only one doing it.

Players could make a comparison between your slots, which is something. Players could see the number, play the slot, and think "Ahhhh, so that's what the number means." Hopefully, other casinos will follow suit and the true value of these numbers will emerge, allowing true comparison shopping.

Moreover, in your defense, other casinos chosen terms to describe variance/volatility are equally useless. They use completely arbitrary terms or pictures like peppers, or fireballs, or something, all of which tell me precisely squat about the game. Your numbers, while still useless on a larger, industry-wide scale, are at least not arbitrary, which is an upgrade.

As to your question, the best that I can conjure is that variance is the expected extremes that a player would encounter during a game session of any length, even a single spin. I think that you could best describe it as a better determinant of what a player expects to encounter compared to the mathematically expected standard deviation which, much like T-RTP, only forms itself into the standard bell curve over a long period of play.

Basically, as you say in your page, standard deviation requires a reasonably large sample size to appear, but variance does not. On any spin, my return should end up in the range of the T-RTP plus/minus Variance.

And while this doesn't apply directly to the thread, and I also understand that you are a developer and not an actual casino, where can I find your Terms & Conditions? Are they centralized, or do you allow your clients to write their own?

 

[binary128]

Well, to be accurate, I had expected a more robust response to this thread. It seems to me that variance is probably the term most often used in any discussion about slots. Most of the threads in the forum are about slots, so that amounts to a lot of references to variance.

This thread, dedicated to that very subject, appeared however to die out of the gate. I confess this was a little deflating, because it took us awhile to get all of these numbers together, and I think we did a pretty good job here. I thought that we put a lot of "meat on the table", and I was looking forward to an interesting discussion.

TheLastCylon (not really a fan, but I liked that show too), first of all I want to thank you for taking the time to compile the Theoretical RTP numbers for NetEntertainment. I can only guess at the amount of work that took. I don't play their slots (a "No shit Sherlock" moment), so your first post's long list was, for me, just a long list. However, the summary data in your last post was very interesting.

I also want to thank you for giving a decent go at it with IGT's Theoretical RTPs. I'd have to agree with your own conclusion that your efforts there ultimately failed, but you, and a few others, gave it a pretty decent shot.

However, your IGT thread, ostensibly about Theoretical RTP, is one in which the importance of variance was introduced almost immediately, and persisted pretty much throughout the thread.

bonkerjerks included the following:

However, one thing I'd like to make clear is that RTP never tells you the whole story on a game. In the short term, it is more often the volatility of the slot that you are really experiencing.

(He uses the word volatility, which I'm assuming is the same as variance. I might be wrong there, however. Variance is defined as the square of Standard Deviation. Volatility might be something completely different.)

rainmaker included the following quote from NetEntertainment:

....Pay-out is however just one dimension of pay-table design. Variance, hit frequency and distribution of winnings between base- and bonus game(s) are other factors to take into consideration.

(I would argue that the "distribution of winnings between base- and bonus game(s)" is one of the factors that feeds into variance, so its inclusion as a separate item above is a bit redundant, but hey, who's a nitpick. )

Even in my own "Return to Player - Critiques Requested" thread, Jufo Made a Post that provided a link to a thread on the Wizard of Vegas forum, and included the ratio house edge/variance, thus stating that variance is as important as RTP. So, even Mike is on the variance bandwagon.

"Variance, variance everywhere, and not a number to sea." (A little pun there. Very little.)


Now, with all of that back story filled in ...

Your statement:

I don't think that there is any reasonable way to apply human terms to variance.

You may be right. If we stick to just the words that I have seen used most frequently, one person's "Medium Variance" might be another person's "Low Variance". Without any numbers, who's to decide?

Your suggestion:

Players could make a comparison between your slots ...

I've made some posts in the past about modifications that we made to our slot games. (Min coin amount/max line count, Change Set #1 to the line bet system, Change Set #2 to the line bet system.) There was no response at all to any of those posts. I'm left to conclude that Casinomeister members don't think very much of our slots, and would thus be disinclined to perform any experiments there.

BTW, I disagree - I think that the use of some sort of graphic "hot pepper" symbol (or like that) is a good idea. People like pictures. I think the best idea, though, is to use both a graphic AND a number.

I have to agree with you that, right now anyway, our numbers are useless. For all I know, Galewind's highest variance slot might fall into the Medium range for another software supplier. So if we label it "High Variance" and a Player that's used to another software supplier comes in and plays, they might say "High variance? What high variance? This ain't no high variance!"

Your Statements:

... variance is the expected extremes that a player would encounter during a game session of any length, even a single spin.

On any spin, my return should end up in the range of the T-RTP plus/minus Variance.

I don't think are the answer. A single spin might return 0%, or it might return 2,000%. Even 10 spins might do the same. There's a threshold out there somewhere, but where?

TheLastCylon, I've read that you're not a big slot player, but I do appreciate your taking the time to comment here. (Otherwise, it's just crickets chirping.)

I can only hope that others with more knowledge of slots (and I'd guess that is a lot of people at Casinomeister) can jump in here and provide some opinion, some clarification. As I said, Galewind needs words here, something to put into this Help file that will both make sense and provide value to the Players. I'm asking for help.

Your question:

And while this doesn't apply directly to the thread, and I also understand that you are a developer and not an actual casino, where can I find your Terms & Conditions? Are they centralized, or do you allow your clients to write their own?

I agree, it doesn't apply to this thread. I'm on a mission here, and our T&Cs don't fit into the subject at hand. I extend to you the courtesy of acknowledging that you asked it, but then extend to myself the courtesy of not answering it.

I've read your "Meditation ..." thread. I think there is a chunk of good stuff in there. However, I also think that particular kitchen has gotten way too hot for my cold-weather blood.

If you want to start a focused, single-issue-at-a-time type of thread, then I'd have no problems making what contribution I can there.

Chris

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Hello binary I should have replied to this thread already but I have to be honest and say I've never played at a casino running your software or am aware of any that are - having had a look at the stats page you linked (97%+ RTP on all your slots? That's pretty awesome) I'm interested to find a UK friendly casino running your software but there's nothing on the accredited list here at CM at all? (I've also read up on some history where you paid out as a platform provider when a casino running your software decided they didn't want to pay up, which is very impressive.)

When it comes to RTP and variance I've said more than once that I think every single game should have on its paytable the long term theoretical RTP and also some indication of variance. (Indeed, this lack of transparency is one of the reasons I'm currently on hiatus from playing at MG casinos.)

I accept that variance is subjective between software providers, but if you want an idea of what works for me personally as a player, take a look at 3Dice with their Zeitgeist page, and their casino client where every single slot simply gives you a description and colour code as to their interpretation of its variance. Low is green, medium is orange, high is orangey-red and very high is a vivid red.

You can have it as simple as that 'up front' as it were, and then have more information in the help files as you see fit.

I do like the way you present RTPs on a slot-by-slot basis, that should be an industry standard IMO.

I don't think there can be any such thing as a casino being 'too transparent', anyone with any sense knows that the casino has the edge overall, but that's no reason not to give the player the information to allow him to make informed choices about what kind of risk vs reward he wants to take on, does he want to maximise his play session for low risk, have the chance for big wins at higher risk etc.

Finally, can you recommend a casino running your software that I could give a try as a UK player? If your slots are genuinely running at 97%+ RTP I suspect they are probably the highest paying slots on the net?

 

[TheLastCylon]

Was my intention so obvious? Alright, then, I will start a thread about T&C's (I'm sure many here will be absolutely ecstatic about that) to which you can reply.

 

[binary128]

@ChopleyIOM:

Thanks for the suggestions on presentation. I agree - the Zeitgeist page is very attractive and "user friendly". Our Help files, with all of their words and numbers, are nowhere near as attractive, or "user friendly". That's something for me to think about.

I'm pretty sure that Pinnacle Sports is UK friendly. If you're into "free spins" slots, I'd suggest Lucky Lanterns, Golden Goal and/or Gems of Isis. (You can check everything out in their "Play for Free" Casino.)

As to the Slot returns:

If you go to pinnaclesports.com/casino, and scroll down towards the bottom of the page, you will see in the middle of the page a chart. This chart displays the RTP numbers from the Certified Fair Gambling (CFG) monthly audit reports.

At the top of this chart is a series of tabs:

All Games | Blackjack | Video Pokers | Slots | Table Games | Other

If you click the Slots tab, the chart will reload, showing the CFG monthly Slots RTP Percent for the previous 12 months.

You can see that there have been 3 months where the RTP has been above 98%, and 1 month where the RTP was below 95%. The remaining 8 months have all been between 96% and 98%.

I could run a database analysis that gives you the exact RTP for the total of the previous 12 months but, well, at the moment I'm a bit wrapped up. I'd say a good "eyeball average" is 97%, and I suspect that if I did run that database analysis it would return a number that is just a little bit to the high side of 97%.

Again, thanks for the feedback.


@TheLastCylon - OK, I'll wait for it to appear in the list.

 

[TheLastCylon]

I know that this would be something of an odd undertaking, but have you considered hiring someone to go and play the slots at your competitors to gather data samples, determining rough variance numbers, and seeing which numbers to which they attach one, two, five, little hot pepper pictures? Again, it would be an unwieldy thing, but it would give the ability to compare and thus come up with human language to describe something that is rather abstract.

 

[Jasminebed]

It's not something I'm going to weigh in on lightly, but I will try to make some constructive comments.

Somewhere here, 3Dice explained that their determination of variance was based on a $50 deposit at minimum bets with either busted or $500.

Hope that helps.

 

[cpdnd31]

So this is where all the smart people hang out LOL. Sorry had too. you lost me at hello.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I'm pretty sure that Pinnacle Sports is UK friendly. If you're into "free spins" slots, I'd suggest Lucky Lanterns, Golden Goal and/or Gems of Isis. (You can check everything out in their "Play for Free" Casino.)

As to the Slot returns:

If you go to pinnaclesports.com/casino, and scroll down towards the bottom of the page, you will see in the middle of the page a chart. This chart displays the RTP numbers from the Certified Fair Gambling (CFG) monthly audit reports.

At the top of this chart is a series of tabs:

All Games | Blackjack | Video Pokers | Slots | Table Games | Other

If you click the Slots tab, the chart will reload, showing the CFG monthly Slots RTP Percent for the previous 12 months.

You can see that there have been 3 months where the RTP has been above 98%, and 1 month where the RTP was below 95%. The remaining 8 months have all been between 96% and 98%.

I could run a database analysis that gives you the exact RTP for the total of the previous 12 months but, well, at the moment I'm a bit wrapped up. I'd say a good "eyeball average" is 97%, and I suspect that if I did run that database analysis it would return a number that is just a little bit to the high side of 97%.

Colour me intrigued, slots running at between 97% and 97.5% are a very attractive proposition - especially when you are so upfront and transparent about the numbers behind all your games on an individual basis. Plus the fact that you stepped up to the plate when Heroes Casino decided they didn't want to pay a player and you felt morally obligated to pay as the software provider, even though legally speaking you had no duty whatsoever to do so.

I also note than PinnacleSports have no SUB, but instead offer 0.3% cashback on all wagers made - which is a nice arrangement.

I'm going to spend some time reading the various T&Cs at Pinnacle before I deposit and start playing though, I notice for starters that they deal only in USD (I'm a UK GBP player) and that I'm going to have to withdraw using Moneybookers, and there seem to be fees payable beyond the first withdrawal in any one month.

Thanks again for your post binary, I just wish some of the bigger players (platform providers) in the casino industry would conduct their affairs in the same way that you do.

 

[binary128]

I know that this would be something of an odd undertaking, but have you considered hiring someone to go and play the slots at your competitors to gather data samples, determining rough variance numbers, and seeing which numbers to which they attach one, two, five, little hot pepper pictures? Again, it would be an unwieldy thing, but it would give the ability to compare and thus come up with human language to describe something that is rather abstract.

Well, it's a suggestion, so thanks for that, but a pretty grim one. And the thing is, Variance is an absolute number. It's not a Low, Medium or High thing. As you've pointed out, those are just words that we apply to the numbers.

But I think that the test method you've suggested above would result in some really rough (as in, basically useless rough) variance numbers.

If there is no general agreement on the numbers, then there is no general agreement on the words. Since, apparently, no one else is publishing their numbers, then nothing means anything. (Gods, I'd like to take that last sentence back, but unfortunately it is true.)

All that I wanted from this thread were some words - what does Variance mean to you?


@Jasminebed - I'm sorry but I have no idea what to make of that 3Dice explanation. Thanks for the input though.

 

[binary128]

Colour me intrigued, slots running at between 97% and 97.5% are a very attractive proposition - especially when you are so upfront and transparent about the numbers behind all your games on an individual basis. Plus the fact that you stepped up to the plate when Heroes Casino decided they didn't want to pay a player and you felt morally obligated to pay as the software provider, even though legally speaking you had no duty whatsoever to do so.

I also note than PinnacleSports have no SUB, but instead offer 0.3% cashback on all wagers made - which is a nice arrangement.

I'm going to spend some time reading the various T&Cs at Pinnacle before I deposit and start playing though, I notice for starters that they deal only in USD (I'm a UK GBP player) and that I'm going to have to withdraw using Moneybookers, and there seem to be fees payable beyond the first withdrawal in any one month.

Thanks again for your post binary, I just wish some of the bigger players (platform providers) in the casino industry would conduct their affairs in the same way that you do.

Thanks for the kind words. Because it got me curious, I had the database queries run to get the total Slot RTP for the past 12 months. It came back as 97.56%. That seemed too high, so I had them re-run. It came back as 97.56%.

So, I guess our total slot RTP for the previous 12 months is ... 97.56%. If you throw the rebate in there, you get 97.86%.

I was sorry to hear that Pinnacle is not as "UK friendly" as you'd like. However, the issue of USD-only puzzled me. So I went to have a look at their "Create an Account" page. In the middle is a rectangle labeled Account Settings, with a dropdown list for Currencies. GBP was in there, along with about 20 or so others.

I know only enough about Pinnacle's T&Cs to make sure that they don't conflict with the Casino's T&Cs.

Chris

 

[binary128]

@ChopleyIOM,

In another thread (RTP of Accredited Casinos), you mentioned RTP, variance and other data available from Jackpot Party and 3Dice.

And although the 3Dice Zeitgeist page is attractive and user-friendly, there isn't much there in the way of workable data.

Is Jackpot Party any better. Can you provide, or reference, any workable data from what they provide?

Chris

 

[P.V.]

I had the database queries run to get the total Slot RTP for the past 12 months. It came back as 97.56%. That seemed too high, so I had them re-run. It came back as 97.56%.

So, I guess our total slot RTP for the previous 12 months is ... 97.56%. If you throw the rebate in there, you get 97.86%.

Don't want to be the Debbie downer here but wouldn't it be better for a respected 3rd. party to be confirming said RTP?

Maybe TST or another company.

 

[binary128]

P.V. (aka D.D.),

In a previous post to ChopleyIOM, I gave the following instructions:

As to the Slot returns:

If you go to pinnaclesports.com/casino, and scroll down towards the bottom of the page, you will see in the middle of the page a chart. This chart displays the RTP numbers from the Certified Fair Gambling (CFG) monthly audit reports.

At the top of this chart is a series of tabs:

All Games | Blackjack | Video Pokers | Slots | Table Games | Other

If you click the Slots tab, the chart will reload, showing the CFG monthly Slots RTP Percent for the previous 12 months.

You can see that there have been 3 months where the RTP has been above 98%, and 1 month where the RTP was below 95%. The remaining 8 months have all been between 96% and 98%.

I could run a database analysis that gives you the exact RTP for the total of the previous 12 months but, well, at the moment I'm a bit wrapped up. I'd say a good "eyeball average" is 97%, and I suspect that if I did run that database analysis it would return a number that is just a little bit to the high side of 97%.

All of the numbers that are contained in all of these various charts were extracted from the monthly Certified Fair Gambling (CFG) reports. Links to launch each of these monthly CFG PDF reports are contained in a table below this run chart. NOTE: you'll need to use the inner scroll bar, not the outer (page) scroll bar to see this.

(To make it easier, you can just Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) .)

As you can see from the text below this link table, we have about 3 years of these monthly CFG audit reports, going back to March 2009.

When you look at the chart you need to do an "eyeball analysis" in order to figure out where to draw the average through all 12 of the chart points. I indicated that I thought a good "eyeball analysis" would be 97%, but speculated that the exact number would be a little higher than 97%. (To be accurate, I was thinking somewhere in the area of 97.2% to 97.3%, because of the first 6 months and the last 2 months.)

A limitation of run charts is that, if the data points represent averages of variable-sized data sets, as our data points do, you can't do an "average of the averages". That is, you can't just sum the 12 chart numbers and divide by 12 to get the actual 12-month sample average. You need to do a 12-month bulk sum to get the 12-month bulk average.

I could have contacted Eliot (CFG) and asked him run the 12-month slot summary from the monthly logs he has on hand. Or, we could have taken the 15 minutes or so it took to just run the database queries ourselves. I was merely curious, so we just ran them ourselves.

If you remain troubled by our using a non-certified value, I'll contact Eliot and have him confirm this 97.56%.

Chris

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well I'm convinced enough to give Pinnacle and Gale Wind a try.

Signed up as a new customer at Pinnacle Sports, deposited 200GBP and we'll see how it goes with some slotting tonight

A 200GBP deposit has converted over to $323.62 to play with in the casino, (very fair exchange rate and seems bang on the money), which for a low-roller like me (can't see me getting above a dollar a spin) should hopefully give me some decent mileage.

The deposit from my credit card to Pinnacle Sports was accepted no problem but I immediately received a message that I had to supply credit card scans front+back, a scanned photo ID and a credit card authorisation form within 72 hours.

A bit of an inconvenience perhaps but only took about 15 minutes to do and the upload process through the Pinnacle Sports site is painless, I also assume (hope!) that this means that should I get lucky to hit big and get in a position to make a chunky withdrawal, they won't need any extra documentation off me.

It seems that Pinnacle Sports' main business is Sports Betting, indeed, you can only deposit money to and withdraw money from your Sports Betting account, you have to transfer funds from your Sports Betting account to your casino balance when you start playing, (this is handled in the software when you launch the casino), and to make a withdrawal transfer casino balance back to the Sports Betting account and then actually withdraw it from there - but the software seems to handle this all seamlessly (I've just quit the casino back to the sports betting and it gave me my 200GBP back in my Sports Betting balance, albeit minus one penny! I now have 199.99GBP).

Anyway, Mrs Chopley is out with friends tonight and hopefully Chopley Jnr will get down to bed in a timely fashion, at which point I shall crack open a beer and let the slotting commence! Have to say I'm looking forward to playing slots at 97.5% RTP!


EDIT - Pinnacle have just emailed me back to say that all my documents have been verified and approved, so that's taken under 60 minutes!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Is Jackpot Party any better. Can you provide, or reference, any workable data from what they provide?

Chris

All I have from Jackpot Party is what they supply on the paytable of each game, but they're all basically the same.

The base games all pay 92% RTP, give or take 0.3% either way.

The rest of the RTP is made up of 3% of all wagers going over to the progressive jackpot feature which is effectively a forced wager on every slot on the site, at any stake.

From this, Jackpot Party say that their overall RTP is 95%.

It's not a system I have a whole lot of love for because if you don't hit the progressive feature for a long time you're basically stuck playing slots at 92%, which can have some pretty nasty suction, even on low stakes and especially on the higher variance slots.

They don't do anything in the way of variance indicators, you have to work that out for yourself

 

[ChopleyIOM]

All that I wanted from this thread were some words - what does Variance mean to you?

You could always express it as 'risk' or use plain English to explain that it's the 'ride' that a slot will deliver.

TBH though I'm not entirely sure how many players understand variance or even want to understand variance. I've tried to explain it more than once in Jackpot Party's live chat and whilst some people are receptive some of the time, I have been met on more than one occasion by players eventually saying words to the effect of 'I don't care about any of that I just want to win big.' (These are the same people who are generally depositing relatively small amounts such as 50GBP or 100GBP, playing high variance slots at 1.50GBP per spin and wondering why they're getting destroyed.)

But at the end of the day I don't believe there can possibly be any such thing as 'too much information' or 'too much transparency' when it comes to online casinos, so the more information you put out there the better binary - and if players want to take the time to read it and educate themselves, they will

 

[binary128]

It seems that Pinnacle Sports' main business is Sports Betting, indeed, you can only deposit money to and withdraw money from your Sports Betting account, you have to transfer funds from your Sports Betting account to your casino balance when you start playing, (this is handled in the software when you launch the casino), and to make a withdrawal transfer casino balance back to the Sports Betting account and then actually withdraw it from there - but the software seems to handle this all seamlessly (I've just quit the casino back to the sports betting and it gave me my 200GBP back in my Sports Betting balance, albeit minus one penny! I now have 199.99GBP).

Well, you are armed with all of the statistical data that one could hope for regarding the details of the specific slots. You've got a decent stake to start with. All you need now is some luck.

You're right - Purchases and Withdrawals are handled through the Sportsbook site. However, the Casino's cashier is pretty functional. You can send money back and forth whenever you want, even in the middle of a game (like to cover the cost of a Split bet in BJ).

PLEASE use the "Exit Casino" button to exit the Casino (rather than your browser window's kill button).

As I mentioned earlier, if you are into "Free Spins" slots, then I recommend Lucky Lanterns, Golden Goal or Gems of Isis. All of those at a nickel a line for 20 lines give you a buck a spin.

Regarding the "minus 1 penny" - it looks like you got caught in the "rounding down" snag. Example: you transfer some money from the Casino (in USD) to the Sportsbook. When it is converted to GBP, this conversion will always "round down", as follows:

Conversion results in 34.563. This will "round down" to 34.56.

Conversion results in 34.567. This will also "round down" to 34.56.

We had people who discovered that they could make one half a penny per transaction if the conversion rate coupled with the transfer amount rounded up. So, they started executing thousands (and thousands, and thousands) of transfers per day. This was silly, so we implemented this "rounding down" system.

It should work as I've specified above - that is, half the time there is no problem and half the time you lose a penny.

A better solution to this problem would have been to increase the decimal precision of your Sportsbook account balance from 2 decimal places to 3 or 4 decimal places, but it was discovered that this change would have a ripple affect on other aspects of the financial reporting system.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck. I hope that all aspects of your playing experience are flawless.

Now that you have Variance numbers for all of the slots, I'd be interested in any impressions or feedback you can give me on what you experience relative to the newly published numbers. Also of interest is the Line Hit Frequency values, again for which you've got plenty of data.

That is, you now have the Variance number XX for pick-a-slot. I'd be interested in your impressions regarding "Oh, so that's what a slot Variance of XX performs like."

Oh, and when in doubt (no one ever does, but I'll mention it anyway), the Help files can actually be quite ... helpful.

Chris

 

[ChopleyIOM]

LOL

Literally been playing for about 15 minutes and hit this in the free spins round, was wishing for the last one to drop in!

Few early comments:

1) The auto play doesn't seem to remember my settings. (I like to set a stop trigger at 100x spins or a 10x wager spin, I have to set that every time I start autoplay.)

2) It'd be nice to have a smaller lowest coin size, $1 a spin is pretty much my highest 'starting point' so just inside my comfort zone.

3) The free plays round on Hot Peppers doesn't appear to display a running total (only slot I've played up to now so can't comment on the others), so unless I take note of my bank before I start, I don't know how much the bonus round has actually paid. (I realise I can look at the game log but a basic 'BONUS ROUND HAS PAID XXXXX' would be nice and is generally standard practice.)

Other than that though, no standout problems at the moment

Old Attachment (Invalid)

 

[binary128]

@P.V.

So are you cool with my slots "curiosity factor" RTP reference to 97.56%, or would you still like me to contact CFG for an official confirmation? (I know that Eliot is attending/speaking at the International Assoc. of Casino Security AGM conference in Cambodia, so getting an answer from him might take awhile, probably longer than the functional life of this thread.)


@ChopleyIOM

I'm beginning to conclude that I'll need to extract what words I deem applicable to the definition of slots Variance from Wiki.

I don't know what slots you ultimately wound up playing, how many rounds, and like that. However, I'm really curious - armed with all of the stat data which we have provided, did you find any moment during your game play where you could address the issue - "Oh, so that's what a slot Variance of XX performs like."

Comment #1 - Auto Play settings. That one goes onto our To Do List.

Comment #2 - Lower coin amount option. There is a LONG story there, but the short end of it is - We've got what we've got.

Comment #3 - "End-of-Bonus Summary display". Let me think about that one a bit before I decide whether or not it goes onto our To Do List.

I'm glad to hear that you've encountered "no standout problems". We say it on our web site, and it really isn't bullshit - our benchmark is perfection. We may not do, or provide, everything that all of our customers want, but what we do provide must run flawlessly.

Chris

 

[ChopleyIOM]

@ChopleyIOM

I'm beginning to conclude that I'll need to extract what words I deem applicable to the definition of slots Variance from Wiki.

I don't know what slots you ultimately wound up playing, how many rounds, and like that. However, I'm really curious - armed with all of the stat data which we have provided, did you find any moment during your game play where you could address the issue - "Oh, so that's what a slot Variance of XX performs like."

Comment #1 - Auto Play settings. That one goes onto our To Do List.

Comment #2 - Lower coin amount option. There is a LONG story there, but the short end of it is - We've got what we've got.

Comment #3 - "End-of-Bonus Summary display". Let me think about that one a bit before I decide whether or not it goes onto our To Do List.

I'm glad to hear that you've encountered "no standout problems". We say it on our web site, and it really isn't bullshit - our benchmark is perfection. We may not do, or provide, everything that all of our customers want, but what we do provide must run flawlessly.

Chris

Thanks for the reply Chris.

Excellent news on #1.

I have read around a bit on CM since yesterday and see that there is some history to #2, fair enough if those are the only coin sizes but I think that playing all lines on a slot like Take It Or Leave It costing a minimum of $1.35 per spin is more than some low-rollers will want to play.

As for #3, why would you not have this? It's incredibly satisfying as a player to see a really good total at the end of a bonus round onscreen. I had a bonus round on Lucky Lanterns last night that paid around $500 (a single free spin on that round was over $400), and whilst I was very pleased with the win I was a bit deflated that I didn't get to a see an end of bonus total and perhaps get a bit of a sound and light show too

(Again, I've read around a bit on CM and see from previous posts you've made that you're not fond of overly 'showy' games so I think we might have a fundamental difference of opinion on that one!)

With regards to variance, I'm finding the numbers on your stats page useful and informative, but I'm still leaning towards giving those numbers some sort of relatively simple visual indicator. I can see that Gems Of Isis has far higher variance than Hot Peppers from your stats page, but it's only after playing a couple of thousand of spins through each that it becomes clear just what that number actually translates to in the 'feel' of the slot.

As a final comment, I have found your software/interface/design overall to be absolutely superb, I was playing for a good few hours last night - (somewhat later than I should have been truth be told but what is the weekend for if not to unwind after a busy week at work?) - and there really wasn't a single thing about your entire product that I found unfriendly or objectionable.

 

[zap987]

A question regarding Gems of Isis, is it possible to get a wild on reel 1 during free spins? Been running it in fun play for a while, somewhere between 100 and 200 freespins I'd guess and not seen it on reel 1 even once but plenty of times on all the other reels. If it is supposed to show up at about the same frequency as the other reels and I just had bad luck then I'd call it high variance while if the wild can't land on reel one it's low variance. I do suspect it can't appear on reel 1, or if it can the frequency is a lot lower than the later reels, but it certainly shows on the animations when the reels are spinning.

Overall all your slots feel like very low to low variance compared to other casinos.

It's of course hard to compare since noone else provides the numbers but what would I look for is what % of the total RTP is in the bigger wins, hard to set a specific number what is a big win, but at least 50x bet and probably even more but it depends on how often they come.

 

[binary128]

Re: "A question regarding Gems of Isis, is it possible to get a wild on reel 1 during free spins?"

I just checked the source code for the game. You're right. There are NO wild stops in the first reel of a Free Spin game.

There are wild stops in reels 2 through 5 in a Free Spin game, and there are wild stops in Reels 1 through 5 in a non-Free Spin game.

The significant bits in all of this - this issue is not identified in either the Pay Table popup or in the game's Help file. In addition, you indicate that the wild stop appears in Reel 1 during the spin animation.

We will deal with these issues immediately.

Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention. An excellent catch, a really excellent catch.

Chris

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I just checked the source code for the game. You're right. There are NO wild stops in the first reel of a Free Spin game.

There are wild stops in reels 2 through 5 in a Free Spin game, and there are wild stops in Reels 1 through 5 in a non-Free Spin game.

The significant bits in all of this - this issue is not identified in either the Pay Table popup or in the game's Help file. In addition, you indicate that the wild stop appears in Reel 1 during the spin animation.

We will deal with these issues immediately.

Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention. An excellent catch, a really excellent catch.

Chris

TBH Chris - (and this is related to what I suggested in my earlier PM to you) - I really think you need to distinguish free spins rounds from normal spins. A simple message on the paytable that the free spins rounds uses different reels and/or weighting, change the reel background colour for free spins, change the 'GEMS of ISIS' banner graphic to 'FREE SPINS', something like that.

This is pertinent to me because Isis is the slot I'm currently lumping away at (with real money!), it's very obvious that the weighting/distribution of the wild symbols in the free spins round is completely different to that during normal spins, and since they're expanding wilds with a 2x pay that's to be expected and I don't have a problem with that.

However I must say that I've been 'jarred' several times by the wilds just not dropping in where they're required during free spins (especially on those critical 1-2-3 reels), and then immediately appearing as soon as the free spins are over and normal spins are resumed.

Also, I was working on the assumption that the maximum pay on this slot was a full set of all five reels stacked wild in free spins, so it definitely needs to be made clear that this spin is simply not on the paytable and can never be achieved.

I absolutely applaud your honesty about this and cannot fault you for posting back here so quickly with how the slot works based on looking at the source code, and I agree, you do need to get this changed ASAP

EDIT - Perhaps a dumb question, but this doesn't affect the RTP for the slot does it?

 

[binary128]

Thanks for the reply Chris.

Excellent news on #1.

I have read around a bit on CM since yesterday and see that there is some history to #2, fair enough if those are the only coin sizes but I think that playing all lines on a slot like Take It Or Leave It costing a minimum of $1.35 per spin is more than some low-rollers will want to play.

As for #3, why would you not have this? It's incredibly satisfying as a player to see a really good total at the end of a bonus round onscreen. I had a bonus round on Lucky Lanterns last night that paid around $500 (a single free spin on that round was over $400), and whilst I was very pleased with the win I was a bit deflated that I didn't get to a see an end of bonus total and perhaps get a bit of a sound and light show too

(Again, I've read around a bit on CM and see from previous posts you've made that you're not fond of overly 'showy' games so I think we might have a fundamental difference of opinion on that one!)

With regards to variance, I'm finding the numbers on your stats page useful and informative, but I'm still leaning towards giving those numbers some sort of relatively simple visual indicator. I can see that Gems Of Isis has far higher variance than Hot Peppers from your stats page, but it's only after playing a couple of thousand of spins through each that it becomes clear just what that number actually translates to in the 'feel' of the slot.

As a final comment, I have found your software/interface/design overall to be absolutely superb, I was playing for a good few hours last night - (somewhat later than I should have been truth be told but what is the weekend for if not to unwind after a busy week at work?) - and there really wasn't a single thing about your entire product that I found unfriendly or objectionable.

Regarding that "... end of bonus total and perhaps get a bit of a sound and light show too". You're right - we're not that fond of "showy games". But also, all of that light and sound really builds up the file size, and large files take longer to load.

Something on which you did not remark, but about which we are really proud, is the response time - how quickly everything loads: the Casino, the Lobby, any of the games, the Help system, the Play Log, and like that. We get a good response time because I think that, among other things, we are really good at packing a lot of stuff into a small file.

So that's why I said that I'd have to think about it a bit before putting it on the To Do List. (I'm very selective about what goes on the To Do List. Once it's on there then we are committed. It's carved in stone.)

Again, thanks for the kind words, and I'm gratified that you found the software to be "absolutely superb".

As to the issue at hand - I'm getting closer to concluding that Wiki words are what I'm going to need for our Variance Definition of Terms.

Chris

 

[binary128]

TBH Chris - (and this is related to what I suggested in my earlier PM to you) - I really think you need to distinguish free spins rounds from normal spins. A simple message on the paytable that the free spins rounds uses different reels and/or weighting, change the reel background colour for free spins, change the 'GEMS of ISIS' banner graphic to 'FREE SPINS', something like that.

This is pertinent to me because Isis is the slot I'm currently lumping away at (with real money!), it's very obvious that the weighting/distribution of the wild symbols in the free spins round is completely different to that during normal spins, and since they're expanding wilds with a 2x pay that's to be expected and I don't have a problem with that.

However I must say that I've been 'jarred' several times by the wilds just not dropping in where they're required during free spins (especially on those critical 1-2-3 reels), and then immediately appearing as soon as the free spins are over and normal spins are resumed.

Also, I was working on the assumption that the maximum pay on this slot was a full set of all five reels stacked wild in free spins, so it definitely needs to be made clear that this spin is simply not on the paytable and can never be achieved.

I absolutely applaud your honesty about this and cannot fault you for posting back here so quickly with how the slot works based on looking at the source code, and I agree, you do need to get this changed ASAP

EDIT - Perhaps a dumb question, but this doesn't affect the RTP for the slot does it?

Let me get to the easy bit first - This doesn't affect anything. The RTP, Variance, Line Hit Frequency are what they are. If we added the wild stop to Free Spins Reel 1, then THAT would change everything. But right now all of the stats that are reported for the slot are BASED ON Reel 1 not having a wild stop for Free Spins.

5 Wilds on non-Free Spins is possible. 5 Wilds on Free Spins is not possible. I agree completely - this needs to be made absolutely clear to the Player, in both the popup Flash Pay Table, as well as in the Help files.

As I type this, we are already in the process of removing the Wild symbol from the reel spin animation for Reel 1 in a Free Spin. We'll move onto the Help files shortly, and then finish with the Flash Pay Table popup.

I consider this point of confusion to be an issue of the highest priority.

Chris

 

[zap987]

Sadly that does mean that it's another low variance slot, looking at the paytable I'd guess even hitting 4 wilds in free spins the win will be somewhere around 200xbet most of the time and it's not like 4 wilds in freespins happens a lot. For me as a player there just isn't something I can bet low and hope to hit to get a good cashout. I think the solution in Scary Rich is much better where wilds only appear on reels 1-3 during free spins but you only need 3 instead of 4 to get a big win, 200-2000xbet depending on the last reels. I did hit 3 wilds a couple times on Gems of Isis with matching symbols on the other reels but the payout was around 50xbet, just not enough to be interesting.

I guess there might be other reasons than space for the 0.05 being the lowest coin, but if not wouldn't it make more sense to have 0.01, 0.05, 0.25 and 1 as the coin sizes and let the chip count go up to 10? Would give same max bet but more options for low rollers.

 

[P.V.]

@P.V.

So are you cool with my slots "curiosity factor" RTP reference to 97.56%, or would you still like me to contact CFG for an official confirmation? (I know that Eliot is attending/speaking at the International Assoc. of Casino Security AGM conference in Cambodia, so getting an answer from him might take awhile, probably longer than the functional life of this thread.)

The link you provided was helpful, the first time I'd seen it.

This is exactly what I was referring too and the correct way to present it.

Looks good.

 

[binary128]

A question regarding Gems of Isis, is it possible to get a wild on reel 1 during free spins? Been running it in fun play for a while, somewhere between 100 and 200 freespins I'd guess and not seen it on reel 1 even once but plenty of times on all the other reels. If it is supposed to show up at about the same frequency as the other reels and I just had bad luck then I'd call it high variance while if the wild can't land on reel one it's low variance. I do suspect it can't appear on reel 1, or if it can the frequency is a lot lower than the later reels, but it certainly shows on the animations when the reels are spinning.

Overall all your slots feel like very low to low variance compared to other casinos.

It's of course hard to compare since noone else provides the numbers but what would I look for is what % of the total RTP is in the bigger wins, hard to set a specific number what is a big win, but at least 50x bet and probably even more but it depends on how often they come.

OK, the Help files have now been modified to highlight that there is no Wild stop in Reel 1 during Free Spin games. Modifications to the Reel 1 spin animation, to remove the Wild stop, are in progress. The last bit will be the Flash popup Pay Table.

Hopefully all of this will be dealt with by this coming Monday.

Again, zap987, my sincere thanks for catching this discrepancy.

To address another part of your post:

Overall all your slots feel like very low to low variance compared to other casinos.

This goes to support a conclusion which I voiced earlier in this thread, and has remained in the back of my mind.

Variance is not a word, or a picture. Variance is a number - a calculated, statistical attribute of a slot. Until other providers publish their numbers, my numbers, and their words/pictures, are of little value. Mind you, I don't say of no value, just little value.

Chris

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Sadly that does mean that it's another low variance slot, looking at the paytable I'd guess even hitting 4 wilds in free spins the win will be somewhere around 200xbet most of the time and it's not like 4 wilds in freespins happens a lot.

I think you need to look at your numbers again zap.

I got the hit below a little earlier on and as you can see that was 225x stake with three of the lowest paying symbols on reel 1.

If it'd come in with the highest paying symbol on reel 1 and any others, you'd be talking more in the order of 2500x-3000x stake, a fairly chunky one to be on the paytable.

I've played several thousand spins through Isis now and it's definitely a higher variance slot.

 

[binary128]

Simmo!,

7 months ago I started a thread "Critiques Requested" on RTP. I asked, at the time I started that thread, whether it was OK for me to do so. You replied that it was OK, and that is should make for an interesting discussion.

I mentioned several times during that thread that the critique for which I was looking was for the words that I used to describe this relatively complicated topic of RTP. (The numbers were what they were, and no critique was required.) And I did get some good input on those words, resulting in several valuable modifications and additions.

That thread also proved to be, what I thought anyway, a really good discussion on a lot of different subjects, all revolving around the issue of RTPs.

When I started this "Critiques Requested" thread on Slot Variance, I did not ask for your approval. I simply assumed that since it was really a continuation of the previous thread (in which Variance and Standard Deviation were repeatedly mentioned and requested), that it would be OK for me to publish it.

A recent post in another thread has called that decision into question, assigning my motives for publishing this information to an objective other than the one stated. I believe that if you look through my posts in this thread, I have always tried to keep the discussion, as much as possible anyway, on the topic at hand.

And that is - what words do I use to describe the Term Variance that would make sense, and be of value, to a slot Player? (I'd have to conclude that, through no fault of those which have contributed, there has been little workable material offered to answer that question.)

However, give this recent post to which I referred, in which my motives were assigned to another agenda, consider this a belated "Is this thread OK?" request.

Chris

 

[zap987]

I think your screenshots confirm my guess pretty well, you win 225xbet and if you check the paytable you don't have crap symbols. Your symbols pay 200, 100 and 50 for 5 of a kinds, the 10 different symbols pay 50,50,50,100,100, 200,200,300,300,1000. Depends on the reel layout but the max possible win if you hit the top symbol is going to be about 700-1000xbet and that is the best you can ever hope for. Of course 1000x bet is a very good win and variance isn't only in how big wins you can get but also how often they happen and having played a lot of spins in fun mode it just feels like low to medium variance compared to real high variance slots. Just too much of the RTP in small hits and not enough in the big wins.

 

[Simmo!]

..consider this a belated "Is this thread OK?" request.

Chris

Don't have a problem with it myself Chris although ultimately it's not my shout obviously. Carry on I'd say

 

[binary128]

Don't have a problem with it myself Chris although ultimately it's not my shout obviously. Carry on I'd say

Then carry on I shall. Squire, my steed!

Thanks Simmo!

And BTW, if you've got any words on Variance that you would like to suggest ...

Chris

 

[binary128]

OK, so we've got the hard data on Gems of Isis:

1. It has a Variance of 51 +/- 1.5.

2. It has a Max Line Hit Frequency of about 35%.

3. It has an "Average Number of Spins Between Free Game Wins" of 140.


Based on "game play feel", ChopleyIOM thinks that this is a "Medium" variance slot.

zap987 feels that this is a "Low" variance slot, based on both "game play feel" as well as on some "max possible wins" calculations.

You're killing me here, guys, you're just killing me.

Chris

 

[Nifty29]

FTR Chris, Simmo! is right. You should be asking Bryan (or should have some time ago) if it was OK to promote your software and use his forum for free commercial development purposes. It would have been very easy to have all discussions about all this stuff without even mentioning your brand.

 

[binary128]

Update on modifications to the Gems of Isis game regarding the issue of no Wild Stops in Reel 1 during Free Spins.

We have just deployed a new version of the Flash game in which the Wild Stop is no longer visible in Reel 1 during the Free Spin reel animation.

We have also deployed a new version of the Popup Pay Table which highlights the fact that the Wild Stop is not in Reel 1 during Free Spins, thus multi-wild wins in Free Spins are not possible.

We have also deployed new versions of the game's Free Spins Help file which highlight this issue.

That, I believe, completes the work needed to address this issue.

zap987, again thank you for finding and reporting this problem to us. As I said, I viewed it as an issue of the highest priority.

Chris

 

[binary128]

FTR Chris, Simmo! is right. You should be asking Bryan (or should have some time ago) if it was OK to promote your software and use his forum for free commercial development purposes. It would have been very easy to have all discussions about all this stuff without even mentioning your brand.

Nifty29, when you use the words "your brand" - do you mean Galewind Software?

For example, do you mean that when I open the thread, greet the audience and then identify myself, that I should not identify myself? Or rather, that I should not identify myself beyond my name?

Or do you think that it is inappropriate for me to post threads of this nature?

Chris

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Based on "game play feel", ChopleyIOM thinks that this is a "Medium" variance slot.

zap987 feels that this is a "Low" variance slot, based on both "game play feel" as well as on some "max possible wins" calculations.

You're killing me here, guys, you're just killing me.

Chris

Yeah it's a tough one Chris and I suppose there's no perfect answer.

You could simply attribute a variance to your slots (scale of 1-10 or a text description LOW-MEDIUM-HIGH) based on the variance range of your slots only, without trying to compare them to slots elsewhere.

From a player's perspective I see variance as being the risk factor and the 'ride' that a slot is going to give me. I'll play low variance slots if I want to make my bankroll last a long time, get lots of features and bonus rounds, get maximum entertainment for my money whilst still having the chance to win a bit. I'll up the variance if I'm prepared to see my bankroll disappear a lot quicker but want the chance to hit a big win.

I think you can perhaps get too hung up on the 'dry' mathematical (albeit accurate!) representation of variance as a number, my feeling is that most players would just appreciate a bit of extra information (as 3Dice do with their very simple system in the casino software, I learned that their idea of 'very high variance' is probably only equivalent to what I'd consider to be a medium-high variance slot from other providers, but at least they gave me a scale to work with that I could at least apply to their slots) so in that regard there's no 'wrong' answer.

 

[binary128]

@ChopleyIOM

Re:

I think you can perhaps get too hung up on the 'dry' mathematical (albeit accurate!) representation of variance as a number

You're right, I spend most of my day in a world of numbers. (I don't think of myself as "dry", but I certainly am mathematical.)

I also think back to something that you said in an earlier post:

TBH though I'm not entirely sure how many players understand variance or even want to understand variance. I've tried to explain it more than once in Jackpot Party's live chat and whilst some people are receptive some of the time, I have been met on more than one occasion by players eventually saying words to the effect of 'I don't care about any of that I just want to win big.' (These are the same people who are generally depositing relatively small amounts such as 50GBP or 100GBP, playing high variance slots at 1.50GBP per spin and wondering why they're getting destroyed.)

And also to something that I said in an earlier post:

If there is no general agreement on the numbers, then there is no general agreement on the words. Since, apparently, no one else is publishing their numbers, then nothing means anything. (Gods, I'd like to take that last sentence back, but unfortunately it is true.)

I think that I can find some words for my Term Variance. In there I might reference low, medium and high. That will finish the page, I can put it live, and the Players can make of it, and do with it, as they wish. (Putting this page live is one of the items on the To Do List, so it would be nice to put this one in the "All Done" column.)


But, for right now anyway, I'm going to put the issue of specifically identifying each of our slots as Low, Medium or High in the "Think about it List" rather than the To Do List.

Maybe I'm wrong, but ultimately I feel pretty strongly that things have to work for me, make sense to me, before I move them into the Production release product. (And, after all, I'm the President, so I get to do shit like that )

BTW, what's your stake like in your Pinnacle account? Have you still got some money to play with in there? I think I mentioned to you, I can get you a stat summary when you want it.

ChopleyIOM - thanks a lot for your input into this thread.

zap987 - thanks again for finding that documentation bug.

I had really expected/hoped that those long-term members with loads of slot experience would have jumped into this thread with gusto. I can only conclude that they figured they had nothing of value to contribute. I can understand that - I mean, what can you say about a pile of numbers?

Chris

 

[ChopleyIOM]

@ChopleyIOM

BTW, what's your stake like in your Pinnacle account? Have you still got some money to play with in there? I think I mentioned to you, I can get you a stat summary when you want it.

I cashed out with £260 in the end, if I'd have called it a day at my high point it would have been about £540 but I got far too determined to see a big hit on ISIS for my own good

Still, profit is profit so I'm not complaining!

The stats might be interesting, I had a horrible run on ISIS where it went over 300 spins without a free spins round, which stung a bit! (Well within expected results according to the help page but still not nice when it happens )

 

[binary128]

I cashed out with £260 in the end, if I'd have called it a day at my high point it would have been about £540 but I got far too determined to see a big hit on ISIS for my own good

Still, profit is profit so I'm not complaining!

The stats might be interesting, I had a horrible run on ISIS where it went over 300 spins without a free spins round, which stung a bit! (Well within expected results according to the help page but still not nice when it happens )

Well, for one, I'm glad that you made some money. You're right - it's not enough to send Junior to University, but it might be enough for a nice night out with the family.

Out of curiosity, how did the cashout procedure go? Did they ask for more documentation (as you feared they might), did it go quickly and easily, and like that? I've never done any of this at Pinnacle, (I've got a free test account) so I'm curious.

If you want, PM me the first three characters of your user id - just the first 3. We don't want the full user id floating around the internet, even within the secure PM system of Casinomeister. I can find your account with just the first 3 characters.

I"ll crunch the numbers, and PM you the data. You can decide to post it if you wish.

And again, I can't thank you enough for all of your help with this thread. I didn't make it as clear as I should have in my previous post, but ultimately you were the source for the words that began to come together in my mind for the completion of this web page.

Chris

 

[ChopleyIOM]

And again, I can't thank you enough for all of your help with this thread. I didn't make it as clear as I should have in my previous post, but ultimately you were the source for the words that began to come together in my mind for the completion of this web page.

Chris

No problem Chris, more than happy to contribute

Personally I think it's fantastic that you're prepared to engage with the playing community like this, it's a great shame that it's very much the exception rather than the rule IMO.

If the transparency that you (and by extension Galewind) are happy to show were the norm, I feel the world of online gambling would be a much better place for the players, the casinos, and the platform providers.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Update on modifications to the Gems of Isis game regarding the issue of no Wild Stops in Reel 1 during Free Spins.

We have just deployed a new version of the Flash game in which the Wild Stop is no longer visible in Reel 1 during the Free Spin reel animation.

We have also deployed a new version of the Popup Pay Table which highlights the fact that the Wild Stop is not in Reel 1 during Free Spins, thus multi-wild wins in Free Spins are not possible.

We have also deployed new versions of the game's Free Spins Help file which highlight this issue.

That, I believe, completes the work needed to address this issue.

zap987, again thank you for finding and reporting this problem to us. As I said, I viewed it as an issue of the highest priority.

Chris

I think you need to reword this Chris, because to my mind it makes the free spins round sound far meaner than it actually is.

The way I read this is 'The expanding wild only appears on reels 2-3-4-5 in free spins, and only on one of those reels in any single free spin.'

('There are no multiple wild stops in a free spin' certainly sounds to me like it can only do one at a time, not simply that all five at once can't happen because it doesn't appear on reel 1.)

TBH I think a clearer way of phrasing it would be, 'The expanding wild does not appear on reel 1 during free spins, but can appear simultaneously on any spin on any or all of reels 2-3-4-5.'

EDIT - You could just make it as simple as possible and have the phrasing 'During free spins the expanding wild symbol only appears on reels 2-3-4-5.' Job done, lose the extra bit about 'no multiple wild stops' as it adds confusion.

 

[binary128]

ChopleyIOM,

I like your last suggestion best:

During free spins the expanding wild symbol only appears on reels 2, 3, 4, and 5.

Thanks.

Chris

 

[binary128]

For reasons which he may wish to introduce into this thread, Jufo and I have been exchanging a number of PMs and Emails over the past several days about this topic of Slot Performance Statistics.

The result of all of this has been a significant modification to the Line Pay Hit Frequency part of the Definition of Terms section. (Here is Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) to that web page. Firefox users may need to manually force a refresh of the page.)

As you can see, there is now a third column added to this bottom table. Its purpose is defined within the text above.

Jufo has also suggested an additional column which I have not yet built. This column would answer the question - "If I place a max lines bet on the slot, then how often can I expect to win an amount that is greater than my total bet?"

In other words, given max lines bet, how often can I expect to actually win something.


This is a bit of a rant.

I have always been annoyed by Casino games that show a win (or, more frequently, a WIN!) display when I know full well that the number displayed is not a win at all. That is, I place $1 on 20 lines, spin, and the WIN! display shows 4. I know I didn't win $4, I lost $16.

I know that I am being manipulated. Or, more accurately, that a manipulation is being attempted.

Anyway, that is the reason that all of Galewind's games of this type (Slots, Keno, Video Pokers) show PAID and not WIN. If our games use or show the word win, then that is what you actually won - money in your pocket.

Rant completed.

Chris

 

[ChopleyIOM]

This is a bit of a rant.

I have always been annoyed by Casino games that show a win (or, more frequently, a WIN!) display when I know full well that the number displayed is not a win at all. That is, I place $1 on 20 lines, spin, and the WIN! display shows 4. I know I didn't win $4, I lost $16.

I know that I am being manipulated. Or, more accurately, that a manipulation is being attempted.

I did notice that on your slots Chris and yes it did make a nice change. I suppose there must be some sort of psychological reason for the 'WIN' terminology being favoured but personally speaking I always just found it annoying to see the word 'WIN' applied to what is clearly a losing spin.

Some of the slots with large numbers of paylines in particular can feel like they're openly mocking the player, whereby 'wins' of as little as three pence can be flagged up......

Whilst this is technically a 'win' I'd have much rather seen 'BONUS ROUND PAID' as opposed to 'YOU HAVE WON' at the end of this free spins round...... (Plus I clearly hadn't 'won' £1.50 as the triggering spin was 30p.)

 

[binary128]

Chopley,

This is one of those reasons I mentioned about not having too much "glitz and glitter" in the slots. I mean, here we have a built-in system that has got to display something at the end of the free spins round, even if that something is (essentially) nothing.

Still, all of your suggestions, both in thread and in PM, remain firmly logged into the "Think About It List".

Oh - wasn't that wire from Pinnacle set to come through today? Did it happen? I'm prompting only because I don't have a clue about that side of the operation from the Player's perspective, and I'd like to have a direct feeling of confidence about it.


Well, the column that Jufo suggested has been added to the web page. (Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) )

This last column shows the percentage of spins of the slot on which you can expect to break even (Example: $3 total bet, $3 paid) or get back more than your total bet (that is, you won money).

I also added the words to the definition of the term Variance.

I'd have to say, this is it. This page already weighs in at about 500 pounds. I figure about 0.001% of the Players in Galewind's Casinos are going to read it. OK, no one is going to read it, but still, damn it all, we've got it!

And what a true wealth of information. It seems to me, and I am totally biased in saying so, that this page, coupled with the Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) , covers the issue of Slots from the Players perspective so thoroughly that they should be required reading.


BTW, because both RTP and Standard Deviation (SD) are contained within this original link page, I'd like to talk about something which has been repeatedly raised throughout several threads which I have recently read.

That "something" has to do with the relative importance of RTP versus Variance (or SD).

We can use the example in the Definition of Terms section for Standard Deviation. This example uses the slot Crazy 8 Line - a reasonably popular slot, by the way. (I'm going to round numbers to single decimal places to make it a bit of an easier read.)

Crazy 8 Line has an RTP of 97.5%, with an SD of 4.8. You can see from the example that +/- 1 SD has already put a large number of Players into the winners circle. +/- 2 SD adds more winners. +/-3 SD adds more winners still.

In other words, at an RTP of 97.5%, short-term Variance is going to make a lot of those Players winners. (And I mean winners as in more money in your pocket.)

If we drop the RTP to 92%, then +/- 1 SD has no winners at all. +/2 SD has a small number of winners. You need to get into the +/- 3 SD range to start seeing some significant winners.

In other words, at an RTP of 92%, short term variance is going to make a small (a very small) number of those Players winners. (Obviously, long term variance is even worse.)

So, if you, as a Player, can get the slot's RTP, and either the Standard Deviation or the Variance, then it seems to me that you are now armed with some very critical information as to whether you want to play that slot or not.

It's like buying a new car. You get into it, drive it around for awhile, absolutely fall in love with it, you've got to buy that car, and then you discover that it gets 2 miles to the gallon. Ugghh. What are you going to do?

You absolutely love that car. (You absolutely love that slot.)

It gets 2 miles to the gallon. (It has an RTP of 92%.)

What are you going to do?

Chris