Scattered Odds

[AudiManinBoro]

Which casinos is it that run these live score board tournaments? Oh and good luck VWM tho im sure you wont need it

 

[athlone64]

Never seen all 5

 

[cheekymonkey]

What a beauty.

 

[brianzz]

Nobody has brought this up. At B&M casinos it's well known the higher denom the higher the return. Why would MG make all denoms return the same %? Penny returns 96% and $1 returns 96%, that would make most dollar players penny players because pennys generally would get more play and return more to the player in the long run than say a dollar setting.

 

[Slotster!]

Nobody has brought this up. At B&M casinos it's well known the higher denom the higher the return. Why would MG make all denoms return the same %? Penny returns 96% and $1 returns 96%, that would make most dollar players penny players because pennys generally would get more play and return more to the player in the long run than say a dollar setting.

It's not so much the overall percentage return, more the likelihood of hitting nice big wins... It's a lot easier (overall) for a casino to pay out a nice big five scatter win when it's 200 - as opposed to 20,000 - regardless of the overall percentage.

I'm totally undecided on the whole thing. I've always assumed everything was fair and straight up - dunno any more!

 

[lojo]

Nobody has brought this up. At B&M casinos it's well known the higher denom the higher the return. Why would MG make all denoms return the same %? Penny returns 96% and $1 returns 96%, that would make most dollar players penny players because pennys generally would get more play and return more to the player in the long run than say a dollar setting.

You are correct that dollar machines have a higher payout percentage. But a multidenominational machine will pay out exactly the same if you are betting a penny per line or a dollar. So the MG 'machines' are exactly like the penny machines in Nevada. I don't know any other state's regulations.

 

[brianzz]

Multi-denom video and reel machines in Nevada are capiable of having different %'s for each denom

 

[lojo]

Multi-denom video and reel machines in Nevada are capiable of having different %'s for each denom

When did this start?

 

[brianzz]

They've always done it. Video machines it's menu selectable and reel machines it's selectable via the VFD display during set up since the newer machines only have 1 set of chips and the operator selects the return for each denom.

 

[lojo]

They've always done it. Video machines it's menu selectable and reel machines it's selectable via the VFD display during set up since the newer machines only have 1 set of chips and the operator selects the return for each denom.

I'm either misunderstanding your statements or I disagree. Can you back that up? I'll do some research too before I argue ignorantly.

Just to be sure what we are talking about:

You are saying that an IGT multidenominational slot in Vegas can payout a different percentage for $1 coins than for $.01 coins?

Thanks.

 

[brianzz]

Yes the operator of an IGT video, reel, vision or reel touch machine can select different returns for each denom on that machine.

I'll look through my papers and see if I can find the instructions to change this specific setting.

 

[lojo]

Might be arguing your side here...

100. For licensees that have not installed an “On-Line Slot Metering System” approved by the Board pursuant to
Regulation 14 Technical Standard 3, when multi-game or multi-game/multi-denomination machines are initially
placed on the casino floor and when the active paytables within the slot machine are changed, the theoretical hold
percentage used in the slot analysis report is a simple average of the theoretical holds, as set by the manufacturer,
of all the active paytables of the slot machine. The slot analysis report is revised to indicate the new simple
average theoretical hold percentage whenever a change is made to the active paytables within the slot machine.
Note 1: For multi-game and multi-game/multi-denomination machines, a new machine number is not assigned
when paytables are changed within the same library of paytables.
Note 2: The theoretical hold percentage needs to be obtained for each active paytable when multi-game/multidenominational
machines have different paytables for each denomination within a game that are activated for
play.
101. For licensees that have installed an “On-Line Slot Metering System” approved by the Board pursuant to
Regulation 14 Technical Standard 3, that is connected and communicating with the slot machines to read and
record the coin-in amount by paytable or by wager type of the slot machine, the system is utilized to complete the
following procedures that applies only to multi-game and multi-denomination/multi-game machines and for slot
machines which have a difference in theoretical hold percentage which exceeds 4 percent for a single-coin play
versus maximum-bet play:

Wow.

 

[lojo]

I always implicitly trusted the gambling gurus at casinocitytimes and not once in over two years have I ever seen one say that this is the case, in fact they have alluded if not outright stated that the opposite was true.

That's complete and utter BS and if I'm reading it right totally not fair imo. I don't care which denomination is a higher payout. It just ain't right, and unless I'm mistaken or can be assured that the percentage is.... NO, if that is the case, I'm done with slots onland, period, and done online until I can see audits and payout percentages wherever I play. Period.

Thanks, brianzz. I want to see more... jetset? Spearmaster? GM, webzcas? Bryan? Stanford? John Robison?

 

[lojo]

Above typed in the heat of the moment.

ANYBODY

Please.

This epiphony, if true, makes me feel like an absolute fool for ever dropping a fennig in a slot.

If, indeed this is true NGC, I not only eat every word I said in the FL thread, but am either going to quit gambling or become the biggest freakin advantage player that ever walked his baraka through a door.

I thought bad was bad and fair was fair, and I'm a little pissed nobody is speaking to this derail.

Chime in or forever hold your peace.

wtf

Santa clause just died while having sex with my mother

 

[brianzz]

In defense of the casino city times people, although most times they do just write what they think people want to see, these newer reel multi-denoms are sorta new, so they probably wouldn't know. If I didn't hawk the manuals for the games I wouldn't have ever known either.

I've always thought MG games were sorta shady with the returns when you played penny as opposed to playing dime, but that's just me, always leary of anything online, especially after the news broke that RTG can turn them up and down on a whim.

 

[3Dice]

ANYBODY

Please.

This epiphony, if true, makes me feel like an absolute fool for ever dropping a fennig in a slot.

If, indeed this is true NGC, I not only eat every word I said in the FL thread, but am either going to quit gambling or become the biggest freakin advantage player that ever walked his baraka through a door.

I thought bad was bad and fair was fair, and I'm a little pissed nobody is speaking to this derail.

Chime in or forever hold your peace.

Hey lojo.

First off, I appreciate your frustration. This scenario makes the low-rollers pay for the wins of the bet-max players. I know at least a couple of European countries where it would be impossible to homologate a machine like that. (including Belgium - lol we're not even allowed to have idle music ).

If it's not being explicitely mentioned it is simply un-acceptible. And if it is (it's commonplace for videopoker and some other games), it needs to be obvious to the player. But, and once again, I can really only speak for 3Dice, I'm totally missing the motivation a casino would have not to advertise it.

I think that those b&m casino's originally pushed for this to maximise the play they had given the fact that they can only fit a certain number of machines and thus players. But in that case, it would be in the casino's best interest to make sure that the players know that playing max-coins is going to give them a better percentage. (exactly like for VP). (and in the original post, Brianzz calls it 'well-known')

I personally feel the situation is entirely different for online casino software tho. There are by very definition as much machines as there are players, so its not really in the casino's interest to 'push' the player into a play strategy he doesnt like. It's not like someone else who 'would play max' is waiting behind you to take your seat ..

So apart from that I agree 100% it shouldnt be there for slots - and certainly not if its not explicitely mentioned, I fail to find a reason why anyone would not advertise it if they do something like that. Actually, if it were not advertised, I would expect a (!!malicious-unfair!!) casino to do it the other way around .. give low rollers a higher percentage than high rollers .. think about it ..

In conclusion, and only speaking for 3Dice, we certainly have no different payout percentages for slots based on the denomination, and have absolutely no motivation to do so. And once again, I wont stick out my neck for any other online sw providers, but I would be honestly surprised if they did.

 

[tim5ny]

Look at all the great hits and bonus rounds that Swede has posted in the Winner's thread playing Thunderstruck, Ladies Night, and Spring Break. It had always got me wondering if something's fishy because his bet was always .36 cents . His ratio of great hits seemed far above average per session. I've never said anything about it before until this thread came along.

 

[hitobito2005]

Some slots at Wagerworks change their payout depending on the denomination used (I presume the casino can change whichever ones they want) but if you go to the "payback" page and click through to the end, it tells you what the return is - so it's no secret.

 

[lojo]

As far as I'm concerned, until another maker comes clean - 3Dice is THE ONLY honest slot to play.

BRING IT:

MG
GV
RIVAL
RTG

Nevada Gaming Comission!!!

 

[happygobrokey]

my completely uneducated take on it.

i tend to agree that different denominations would pay from different prize pools as it were. players playing with 1c-5c coins are probably in the majority, thus the machines take in more of these low value coins and thus pay out more of these back to the players. conversely, the machines get less traffic in 25c-$1 coins, so the payouts are lower. after all, a machine would not pay your win in pennies if you were betting dollars, and it wouldn't chip up your win and pay out in dollar coins when you are spinning with pennies. for online, and with modern live machines, this really shouldn't be a factor since it is all digital cash anyway.

but i also think that those who bet 45c a spin as compared to $4.50 will get to see ~ten times as many spins for their money and thus hit the bonus rounds ten times as often. for the sake of visualisation, i could see a bag of numbered balls that had one ball for every possible combination of reels, but for ease of use translated to the pay amount. if i drew 5000 numbers (with replacement of course) from the bag housing the pay scale for the 45c play, i would have many more draws at getting the various high prizes (and bonus rounds=free draws at multiplied winrate), and arguably might come out with more profit than drawing 500 numbers from the bag with payouts adjusted to $4.50 a spin.

there are of course the same amount of balls in both bags since the game stays the same, but having ten times as long to play and catching many more low-denomination wins along the way increases your chance of drawing the sizeable wins and even winning 5 bucks on a 45c spin seems significant. if you take 400 spins @ $4.50 to hit the bonus round, that's a large dent to your stack and only a 100x bet win will satisfy, the rest is peanuts since some single spins will pay back 25-50 bucks and keep you spinning a while longer.

but also in line with the "separated prize pools" idea is the notion that as you step up the bet denominations, exponentially fewer people can afford to bet this much, since the rich can play for pennies as well, the lowest levels are most inclusive and thus you see far more spins, and subsequently wins, at the lower coins. how many $11.25 spinners are there compared to $2.25, 90c, 45c? if you are playing for such an amount that you go broke before 500 spins on a bad session, then you don't get any reliable feel for how the machine pays out at that bet limit. if you only ever buy in for 100 spins at a low stake ($45 = 100x.45), in short order you would swear off slots for good because it would appear hopeless of ever hitting the elusive scatters. now imagine that person had played for 4.50 how much more unfair it would seem based on his sample results. more spins for your money and more spinners at lower levels makes the wins appear more frequently at the smaller stakes.

i am sure if we simulated two players spinning infinitely, one at 45c and the other at $4.50, that their wins would approximate each other (to the ratio of bet size of course). but if there is some point when the $4.50 player goes broke, the 45c player would be able to continue playing far longer assuming his bankroll was more than a tenth of the other player's, and by the time the lowballer busts out he may have hit the feature many times over what his rival who busted much earlier had done in his session. am i just blowing wind, or do i make a point?

 

[lojo]

my completely uneducated take on it.

i tend to agree that different denominations would payt he may have hit the feature many times over what his rival who busted much earlier had done in his session. am i just blowing wind, or do i make a point?

Heysus Kristos man, make a point!!!

No offense but this is serious shit.

 

[lojo]

NGC or cctonline

Somebody bust this ball or tell me it isn't true

I want to see this settled. I crap you not, I'll quit gambling or become an advantage player.

I insist (itoldyouso not withstanding) that EVERY slot maker chime in on this thread.

No apologists will be accepted, we are down to the nitty gritty.


DECLARE or piss off.

3Dice says, does anyone else?

 

[happygobrokey]

you tossed me a thanks but don't think i made a point? i know nothing about slots but i feel the frequency of the rarest/highest wins being posted on here at low bet amounts is just because far more people spin far more times at these bets than higher ones. if money was no object i would reckon that the winrate would be the same no matter the size of the bet. this sort of thing would require simulations to formalize a theory, but i think it's just the variance of playing for higher stakes that means fewer actual wins occur because exponentially fewer spins take place at those levels.

as regards the argument for non-max-coin bets hitting less often, provided all the lines have been bet on, it shouldn't affect the frequency of hitting, only the requisite payout being a lower multiple based on the coins bet. a way to observe this, since we know the reels of some of the more popular slots, we could calculate the mean returns and run a simulation to see if betting 1/line versus max/line show a statistically significant difference in returns.

i don't know of any way to tell with any certainty if the scatters are hitting "fairly" for whatever coin size and coins/line, because they just hit every once in however many times, but randomly distributed throughout the machine's life. it would take millions of spins to determine if a certain group of reel combos (ie those where a scatter is displayed on one of the three panels on each of five reels) was occurring in tune with mathematical expectation. how often anyone spinning on tstruck or vwm himself is going to hit them and at what coin is entirely unpredictable. vw's chakras just must have aligned this week or whatever, i'm sure he won't see them again till christmas, especially if he rides the trend and steps up his bets.

 

[lojo]

use less words and I'll hear ya

edit:

It has been established (please prove wrong) that multidenomininational machines have seperate paytables inside them. We could be wrong? How do you feel about that. I feel raped.

 

[happygobrokey]

ok, how's this:

(fabricated figures for example)
# spins on tstruck, march, 45c = 50000
# spins tstruck, march, $4.50 = 5000
scatters hit @ 45c = 150
scatters hit @ 4.5 = 15
500x bet win during free spins @ 45c = 10
500x bet win during free spins @ 4.5 = 1

proportionally the amount is the same but physically/actually there are far more wins at the lower level. if all the 500x bet winners posted here you'd see ten at 45c and only one at $4.50. each low bettor's win was worth (500x0.45)=$225, and the single highroller took (500x4.5)=$2250, as much as all the lowrollers combined. but of the eleven screenshots, only one was at a high stake. it is the shift in perception from sheer number to proportion that makes lower stakes seem more favourable to win.

you personally are just as likely to win on the next spin whether it's for a nickel or your life savings, but the more spins you take and the lower your risk of ruin, the more of the "rare"/bonus/jackpot win amounts you'll see. if you bust out in <100 spins, you think it's rigged; however if you hit the feature in <100 spins you feel great. but if you stop playing either way, then you are on one side or the other of the average (good or bad luck for the session). the larger the sample size of spins you see, the closer the observed results are to the mathematical and the true expectation.

edit: yes i read the thread. however, these changes should be reflected to the player. it was said that the machines were programmed to pay better for higher coin size, in which case the player is not getting raped, only pleasantly surprised when he wins more than he expected. of course, i understand the fear is that the tables are shorted without telling the player, but i ask how can this be? if you get a winning line, and the payout is any less than the paytable shows, then you know the machine is paying on a different scale than what's displayed to you. this is dishonest and you don't need to stand for it.

but if you think the machine wins less often or is less likely to display large wins with some coin sizes or coins/line than others, this is very cumbersome to prove to a statistically significant degree. and if it is the case, this would have to be programmed into the operating code somehow (and as you say, possible to detect and strategize against the non-random patterns) and if they are going to shaft non-max bettors or high-rolling bettors, why wouldn't they shaft the low-coins-at-max bettors just the same? if they thought they had a way to rig the machines, it would be applied universally and not just to certain coin sizes or coins/line, imo.