Scattered Odds

He made his point perfectly clearly. You might try reading instead of posting more and more threads which add nothing :thumbsup:

thanks ves! i like the empty thank-yous from lojo though, he is always liberal with the thanks :thumbsup:

btw, lojo is that like short for long john at all? just curious.

anyways, lj's just on a rant, it happens -- and with a wack job like him it's nothing surprising -- :D he's not a bad guy, i like his point of view a lot of times or it is at least amusing to read his posts, probably more of the latter :p

my advice, avoid the slots, at least for a time. play vp if you must have a machine interface, or better yet try a table game. if basic strategy discourages you from cards, 3 card poker has just one strategy, raise with Q64 or better (courtesy the wiz). even roulette offers 50/50 bets plus all kinds of prospects for the degenerate gamb00ler.

personally slots aren't my thing, but it's easy to see why they can be aggravating. playtech has pachinko which like slots is a cheap way to watch your screen for a long time, and there's a minimal skill aspect to it i believe. i could never understand the game but it could appeal to some.

one thing i really like that i've seen on some flash-based casinos is deal or no deal. i played in fun mode and the structure seems fair. it goes like 1%,5%,10%,20%...100%,200%,500% cases or to that effect. i'm almost certain if you play it right you get get bank offers for more than your bet size, and in most of my trials i had the higher of the two amounts left when it got to the down and dirty.

any event it takes about two minutes(?) for each game and you control your destiny so it's quite fun to take on the house in this way when they offer to buy your case/stake back. in decision/game theory it is always discussed your EV (on tv's version, before opening any cases the average is 131k computed courtesy the wiz, so pick good and unless you screw up hold out for 150k+, haven't yet seen any computations for the online versions where obviously you have to pay to play) and you would sell this bet at this juncture for such an amount. i am very passionate about this game show, and howie is just a blast to watch! :thumbsup:

sorry for this derail but i thought i'd give alternative views than just trying to uphold the integrity of slots to someone who's obviously just venting and scapegoating. slots are very interesting, but last week it was also discussed about the randomness and reel stops, and i insist i saw on tv the reels are regulated by a cpu, which makes perfect sense and prevents mechanical defects from altering a reel's randomness.

i wish there was a definitive manual on how a slot worked; how it picks the wins and translates data into reel positions, if the machine is aware of the bets placed on the spins, how the returns on physical machines are tuned to pay various %s, if only someone could give an accurate breakdown of the programming and mechanics of a slot machine...
 
...
The RNG has no clue whether I have bet $37.50 or five cents, or played here before. The program only cares how much I bet because it has to pay me based on #of coins and lines, etc.
...
I've noticed that I've never hit a jackpot when betting max coin size, coins and lines. Why? Because I've only done it a few hundred times compared to many thousands of low rolls. Hope that helps.


hey lj, you posted this on 7th february, and you make exactly the claims i do. what's the difference now? or is that just it, something came to light that you no longer feel this way? :confused:
 
use less words and I'll hear ya

edit:

It has been established (please prove wrong) that multidenomininational machines have seperate paytables inside them. We could be wrong? How do you feel about that. I feel raped.

Having played at land based casinos for several years, I expect it. I expect that when I sit down at a multi denom Wild Cherry machine that the quarters pay out less (in the long term) than the $1. Doesn't bother me because I'm aware of it.

However -- I suspect that the payout percentages are reversed in online slots. What I mean is this... The land based casino where I usually go pay (these are approx and off the top of my head) 87 - 89% for pennies and maybe 90% for nickels (both primarily vid slots), 91 or 92 % for quarter reel slots, 92 - 93% half dollar, 93- 94% for $1 slots, and 95% - 96% for $5. This is of course an average for each of those denominations. (Some casinos will have a bank of machines posted at 98% payout.)

Now... what I feel (after high rolling in free play for weeks and losing my a$$) is that the above scenario is reversed for the vid slots online -- pennies and nickels pay out (percentage wise) better than the $1 and up. **shrug** Just my gut feeling after seeing a great lack of even halfway decent bonus rounds and wins betting max denom/max bet per spin.

I'm still not quite sure why this would be earth shattering?
 
He made his point perfectly clearly. You might try reading instead of posting more and more threads which add nothing :thumbsup:

Ummm, If you have an ax to grind with me I'd appreciate a direct challenge rather than a sucker punch. Thanks.
 
hey lj, you posted this on 7th february, and you make exactly the claims i do. what's the difference now? or is that just it, something came to light that you no longer feel this way? :confused:

Sorry if I was 'short' with you earlier. I just get frustrated because I value your input but don't like to read page long missives. That's as honest as I can be on that subject, still, my bad.

I had a rude awakening last night, or I misread the Nevada Gaming Commission rules on adjustable paytables within a slot. Until or unless MG states that they hold themselves to a higher standard than NGC holds their participants I can only assume that they are also adjustable- coin to coin.

That may be flawed logic, hyperbole and conjecture, but I feel slighted and a fool for putting myself out there in defense of something I had no solid knowledge of, just trust in whom I considered authorities. An emotional reaction to a perceived fact.

Maybe I'm not rational enough to be posting here today. I think I'll pick up every stitch I dropped on some other threads and take a couple of days off.

Again, I do value your input here. Have fun and good luck :thumbsup:
 
Having played at land based casinos for several years, I expect it. I expect that when I sit down at a multi denom Wild Cherry machine that the quarters pay out less (in the long term) than the $1. Doesn't bother me because I'm aware of it.

However -- I suspect that the payout percentages are reversed in online slots. What I mean is this... The land based casino where I usually go pay (these are approx and off the top of my head) 87 - 89% for pennies and maybe 90% for nickels (both primarily vid slots), 91 or 92 % for quarter reel slots, 92 - 93% half dollar, 93- 94% for $1 slots, and 95% - 96% for $5. This is of course an average for each of those denominations. (Some casinos will have a bank of machines posted at 98% payout.)

Now... what I feel (after high rolling in free play for weeks and losing my a$$) is that the above scenario is reversed for the vid slots online -- pennies and nickels pay out (percentage wise) better than the $1 and up. **shrug** Just my gut feeling after seeing a great lack of even halfway decent bonus rounds and wins betting max denom/max bet per spin.

I'm still not quite sure why this would be earth shattering?

Thanks Mousey.

It is earth shattering to me because I believed otherwise. It's not okay and it's not fair in my book. It's one of the basic premises of allowing myself the foolery of gambling. Unless I misread the rules or a Nevada slots manager can assure me his machines do not have a seperate paytable for pennies and dollars, I won't be playing slots onland any more. Unless MG clearly state they don't do that foolishness, I'll never run a penny through their machine again either.
 
Ummm, If you have an ax to grind with me I'd appreciate a direct challenge rather than a sucker punch. Thanks.
No axe to grind - I just thought "use less words and I'll hear ya" was a bit rude. If you have the time to start threads which often don't even explain themselves you could also do a bit of reading.

Anyway, as far as I can tell - you've suddenly become worked up about the possibility casinos might pay out differently on slots for different coin sizes. This is after seeing a Nevada regulation for land-based casinos, rather than anything special happening on-line. Despite nothing of any note having taken place (except your getting angry) you expect all the on-line casino software companies to rush out a statement of response?

Even if we accept it's a big deal (since when were there any guarantees of anything when you're playing slots?) that's not going to happen, not least because software companies don't tend to respond on these boards. Do MG even have a spokesperson :what:
 
Lojo, I gotta agree with Vesuvio. I count no less than five threads on the first page of this forum where you are ranting about the paytables in video slots online. I think you've made your point, and I personally don't want to read it in every thread I click on. Feel free to pick one thread and rant to your heart's content. And my advice (wanted or not), is that if you feel the games are rigged, not fair, not random...whatever, then the solution is simple. DON'T PLAY.

This argument has gone on for years. If you don't think you're getting a fair shake (keeping in mind it's gambling, and even moreso with slots), then walk away. Just my two cents.
 
Lojo, I gotta agree with Vesuvio. I count no less than five threads on the first page of this forum where you are ranting about the paytables in video slots online. I think you've made your point, and I personally don't want to read it in every thread I click on. Feel free to pick one thread and rant to your heart's content. And my advice (wanted or not), is that if you feel the games are rigged, not fair, not random...whatever, then the solution is simple. DON'T PLAY.

This argument has gone on for years. If you don't think you're getting a fair shake (keeping in mind it's gambling, and even moreso with slots), then walk away. Just my two cents.

Thanks Pina, your point is well taken, but my point is not made. It probably won't be made here either because I am one voice, a pissed off voice, but just one.
This epiphany is to me tantamount to a conversion to atheism. I'm not being rational, I'm being vocal.

Of course I won't play anywhere that doesn't meet my standards of fairness, and if I read it right B&M have the ability to not be fair (in my book) I may play onland again, but not without a manager's assurance.

I will not play online with any game provider that will not publically state their terms in regard to coin size.

Your mileage may vary. What I consider fair and what you consider fair may be two different things. There's enough mystery in the EV as it is.

But again, your point is well taken, as is V's. I'll shut my trap.

Personally, do you think it is fair to change a payout table based on coin size? I'll pick up your answer when I come back in a few days after cooling my jets.


:notworthy
 
My god - that's an absolute BEAUTY!

Five "Thor's Cock's" on top of the four Thors! :notworthy

lmao that's a nice term for those symbols.

spearmaster chastised me for using the word "cock" in my sig, so i hope this vulgarity gets censored too ;)

p.s. zomg have you seen the comp point store at playboy casino? tv channel subscriptions, grotto romps with the hef, i think if i continue to play there (they have some kind of $60 monthly bonus coming into effect i've yet to see into) i will go for the poker chip set. playboy chips, ah hell yeah! 10000 points though, might take a while to get being a lowroller that i am. but the zippo (retail 30 bucks probably) is 7500 and the only other low prize is a deck of cards for 750, so save up 11500 maybe and get the chips and two sets of cards. i can't believe i cleared the signup with ~375 and just blew it all gamb00ling, sigh...
 
Plot of spins before hitting feature on Thunderstruck

I made the 'number of spins before hitting scatter' plot for ThunderStruck.

For Thunderstruck the probablity for hitting the feature each spin is p=0.007013636363636363

It is a
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which means that hitting the freespins on excactly spin #n (and not before!) is given by:

p(n)=p*(1-p)^(n-1) for n=1,2,3,........

You can add these numbers and thus getting the probability for hitting the
freespins before a given number of spins. This gives cdf(n)=1-(1-p)^n and this I have plotted (I just plotted the continious function, but it is actually only defined for the integer values on the x-axis).

Since it is hard to read the y-values for high values of x, here are some important numbers:

cdf(328)~0.900 (so 10% of the times you will have more than 328 spins before hitting the feature)
cdf(426 ) ~0.950
cdf(655) ~0.990 (so 1% of the times you will have more than 655 spins before hitting the feature)
cdf (982) ~0.9990
cdf(1309)~0.999900
cdf (1636)~0.999990

So if you did not hit the freespins in 982 spins it was about a 1/1000.

Still bad luck, but not that rare.

Edit:data file(txt) included

Zoozie
 
Chow Down

Munchkins today, after a break of a fortnight.

During a free spin round, again super micro betting 15p a spin, the Munchkins got to chow down on 5 scatters. This pays a mere 120x bet in this case, not as good as getting them on Thunderstruck.
 
I made the 'number of spins before hitting scatter' plot for ThunderStruck.

For Thunderstruck the probablity for hitting the feature each spin is p=0.007013636363636363

It is a
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
which means that hitting the freespins on excactly spin #n (and not before!) is given by:

p(n)=p*(1-p)^(n-1) for n=1,2,3,........

You can add these numbers and thus getting the probability for hitting the
freespins before a given number of spins. This gives cdf(n)=1-(1-p)^n and this I have plotted (I just plotted the continious function, but it is actually only defined for the integer values on the x-axis).

Since it is hard to read the y-values for high values of x, here are some important numbers:

cdf(328)~0.900 (so 10% of the times you will have more than 328 spins before hitting the feature)
cdf(426 ) ~0.950
cdf(655) ~0.990 (so 1% of the times you will have more than 655 spins before hitting the feature)
cdf (982) ~0.9990
cdf(1309)~0.999900
cdf (1636)~0.999990

So if you did not hit the freespins in 982 spins it was about a 1/1000.

Still bad luck, but not that rare.

Edit:data file(txt) included

Zoozie

I learned that many people use variable bet size for slots. They play some rounds betting their base bet, then they continuously increase the number of coins if they don't hit the feature. Given that, if I take a look on your chart, the followings makes me wonder:

The derivative becomes less than 0.5 somewhere around 250. That means that the chance of hitting the feature within x spins increases more than linear by increasing the number of spins until that point, but after that the chance increases only slightly, less than linear. Of course the probability of hitting is the same on each independent spin, but it might mean that the progressive betting makes less sense after reaching that point where the derivative becomes less than 0.5.

I'm a bit tired yet, so probably I misunderstood something, but still, what do you think?
 

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