Scary thoughts about Casinos

[Tirilej]

I have reading a thread where people are saying that after a big win in a casino all the games goes cold.
I don't want to derail that thread so I start my own instead.

I have been gambling for 20 years. For every and the same reasons that everyone else I suppose. I hit my bottom at one point. Got up and started to educate myself about gambling addiction.
I worked for several years with helping gamblers to quit and take responsible for their own lifes and their own actions.
I know I saved a few and that made it worth the effort.

What amazed me most, and still do, is the fact that people are so supersticious when it comes to gambling.
When sitting by the computer many gamblers believe that it makes a differense how they click the mouse. If it's night or day when they play.
Ask DeBeuker if he can win on mondays
Small things are standing all over the table just to bring luck.
I know I'm counting spins, believing that I often win at a certain amount of spins , so embarrasing I know, but I can't help myself.
There is a lot of strange things we do, think or believe when it comes to gambling.

My question is just this. How stupid are we?

Back to the thread about machines that stops paying after a big win. That's absolutely not true!!!

If you believe so you also believe that the machine you are playing have some kind of intelligence. That it's maybe a person. (Don't tell me you never have talked to your computer, or the game you're playing)
If so, you believe that the game you have played knows that you have been winning that amount, and not only that game but all other games too. They probably have some kind of conversation, telling all the other games that he has already been winning. You can't give him more.
The boss of the games tell the casino who is spreading the rumour to all MG's out there, or all RTG's or Rival, saying that they can't let him win any more. He has to lose first, and the best would be if he lose a little more than he has been winning.

Can't you see the stupid way of thinking? Can't you see it's not a person or has a mind of it's own? It doesn't know you and don't know that you are there. It's a programmed machine!
Now please don't through your sceen out of the window because you think that I'm crazy and don't know what I'm talking about. After all, that screen can't be blamed for anything either

 

[immortality]

I believe that after a big win, if you push your luck, you will end up giving it all back, Whether it be at land casino or online, it has happened to me at land casino, so no the games online are no different than land slot games

 

[Tirilej]

I believe that after a big win, if you push your luck, you will end up giving it all back, Whether it be at land casino or online, it has happened to me at land casino, so no the games online are no different than land slot games

That is exactly what I trying to make you understand. You could keep on having the same luck every time you play. Or you can lose every time you play. It has nothing to do with the fact that you were lucky one time. Who would know? Who would say that you can't win again? There is no God making the decision

 

[Stovetopp]

Nice post Tiriley

Another thing is when you really feel good and very lucky , the unfortunate thing is the machine , or cards or dice didn't know or someone fogot to tell them )

I have had back to back Royals playing on a land based casino and some don't believe it. Another thing. Another big misconception is that once a machine hits it wont hit any more.

Most folks here are savvy to the things you wrote however there are those which just amaze me
and those are the ones the casinos love

 

[Tirilej]

Nice post Tiriley

Another thing is when you really feel good and very lucky , the unfortunate thing is the machine , or cards or dice didn't know or someone fogot to tell them )

I have had back to back Royals playing on a land based casino and some don't believe it. Another thing. Another big misconception is that once a machine hits it wont hit any more.

Most folks here are savvy to the things you wrote however there are those which just amaze me
and those are the ones the casinos love

I completely agree! I just read someone was whining over a particular group. They have the most dead machines he ever have experienced and it was strange that he could be so unlucky. He in fact closed the accounts never to play there anymore.
Well, then it had to be personal

It can not have anything to do with what game he played, what time he played, what betsize he had.
It can not have anything to do with RTP or any other gamblingterm.
The casino must have been deciding before he started that no way...we can't let that guy win!

Sorry for being a little ironic. I can't really help myself

 

[LaHutti]

I think the real problem is, that players ... and compulsive gamblers in particular have is, that they don't understand, that the mathematics say, that they are going to lose, and STILL they approach it, as if they're "supposed" to win, and when they don't, they start chasing their losses, because they're "supposed" to win. When chasing losses doesn't work, they blame the games, because something MUST be wrong....after all they're "supposed" to win
I wish there was a way to explain to gamblers, that once you press that button the first time, you're already on the path to lose. I know a lot of people, including myself, have tried in every possible way, to explain this over and over, but if you're addicted to gambling, or anything else, you tend to block out, what you don't want to hear.
Bottom line is, if you gamble, you lose, not because the games are rigged, but because you can't beat the math !

 

[BustedFlush]

Changing stake can affect how your slot plays. People often think the slots are totally random but they are not. The outcome is picked randomly, yes, but we all know we experience patterns. This is because the randomness is not open-ended. The only game that is truly open-ended and random is a physical roulette wheel - there is no compensation to stop a person say betting 36 and hitting it 20 consecutive times at billions to one. You wouldn't do it on online roulette. In blackjack your randomness is restricted by the shoe and its 4 or 6 decks. Yes, superstition is pointless but subliminal optimism or pessimism while you play is due to recognition usually of previous similar events and their results.

Computerized gambling is NOT totally random and anybody who thinks so is misled. You randomly pick, when you press play, a preprogrammed event that is represented as a reel win or loss and you get the monetary value. This program will ensure the longer you play the slot, the nearer you will get to the RTP say 97%. To make it a gamble the wins are varied in amount and frequency. An ultra high variance as possible on 97% would pay you say 97 pounds once in 100 spins and zero on all others. The opposite low varaince would pay you 97pence EVERY spin continuously.

OK, this is how it is done. There are outcomes set to pay x% over x amount of revenue/plays. For example, you may find a slot that pays its 97% as 194 50 pound wins or 97 100 pound wins (simplified) over 10000 pounds worth of spins. Imagine this as a ladder with 10000 rungs and a rung is missing for each zero spin. That is ONE layer of the program. In the program will be numerous other ladders with outcomes of 97% expressed as different wins, again with missing rungs. Put all these ladders on top of each other, and imagine there is a rung where you win on a spin. Now imagine the next player loses so falls down through to the next ladder. There is a win and he stops falling. Think 3-dimensionally. Unlucky player 1 falls though 25 ladders before hitting a rung. Player 2 hardly falls, but when he does only one or two ladders down. He is well above %age and player 1 is well below.

This is why we remember sequences which DO occur but cannot predict the next spin. Add in complications like freespins (where all they are is one rung of one ladder with a predetermined total which is spread over the x amount of 'free' spins) or different types of freespins like TS2 or IR. The outcome (total amount won on freespins of any type) is simply one rung of the ladder with x amount of win. This is why for example on TS2 it makes NO difference what freespin you opt for. All of them can quite easily pay only 2.3 credits and all can seemingly pay the capped amount of just under 300 x stake.
All the super pooled jackpots are is a run from every ladder removed and added to a pool and do not affect the payout of your slot. Because of restraints put in the programs to prevent freakish damage to casinos you would never win say 2 consecutive 5 wilds on TS2 or get a 100 stake up to millions on the computer roulette. Each layer or ladder does have a fixed sequence of wins on it which is why some people can recognize what will happen next subconsciously. When you select a RNG number you know that this selects a ladder/layer as well as an amount. This is why some win overall and some lose but those factors are mostly temporary. If you don't quit and don't w/d you almost certainly will lose as the average value of the same stake deposited loses effectively 3% every time it's used. This is the problem some compulsive gamblers and those that never make a w/d don't seem to see.
Therefore it is NO use keeping playing and saying 'I always lose' in monetary terms. What you need to know to decide if you have really lost is the amount in cash played including recycling and the total amount won including recycling. RTP.

It is also worth stating the new slot effect. In arcades, the old bar-x machines used to be fixed at percentage in the programs and would always payout well in excess of 100% until they 'settled' much to chagrin of some arcades and the delight of us that knew it and would fight to get on a brand new one being installed. Eventally a program was made that plugged in and played the first 10,000 spins. Fun over.

It is also worth mentioning that some casinos, especially Wagerworks I noticed, tended to get you to a profit quite quickly when you were a new player, i.e. on the undulations along the 97% line you would get an up rise quite a short way into your play. I had one WW a/c whereby I played the same slot for almost a year every weekend. Before I left I had a look at my play figures and they were something like 297000 staked and 290800 returned. I had hit almost the exactly advertised RTP over this amount of spins. When you open a casino a/c you get a fresh 'seed' i.e. a new registry of RNG entries. This applies over the whole casino so if you were on a losing streak on say TS2 and changed to IR and lost on that, you are getting the same outcome as you would have got on TS2 if you had stayed on it.

I know this my get some indignant replies, I have over-simplified it maybe, and may incur some pedantry but the proof is in the pudding. Online gaming is compensated to an extent; it has to be for both player and casino. Then play at any casino for tens of thousands of pounds turnover, look at your playcheck for stakes played and returned (not money deposited and cashed-out) and see them very near the advertised %age.

 

[Tirilej]

Thanks for the reply BustedFlush! (I believe we got ourselves a new VWM)

I believe that what you are saying is correct. I'm not that good in math or technical details so I take what you experts are saying as facts. To be honest. I didn't understand half of it

That was also one of the reasons I started this thread. To maybe give the common gambler an easy way to understand things on how and why we react like we do when we are losing.
It's okey with whining if we understand the game

 

[Realitybitez]

I hate to admit this but I am incredibly superstitious I think most gamblers are, well it does have a lot to do with luck I recall when I first started gambling (land casinos) I was quite amazed at the people who used to talk to their machines, rub their machines - stare totally glassy eyed at their machines as though that was going to bring them a win..... then hello! a few months later, Im doing exactly the same thing

I used to get really religious when I was on my last few dollars. 'please lord' give me one more hit and I promise I'll be out of here. My religious frenzy only lasted as long as I was in the pub

I haven't read the thread yet on the 'big win then you start loosing' but I kind of share that belief. It probably just is superstition but I have found, if I win anything substantial, I seem to loose constantly right after

Anyhooo solution to that, just bounce to another casino - come back to that other casino (you won off) another day when one's mindset isnt on ' Im probaby gonna loose now, that I won so big'. And probability is that session will just be a normal round of win and loose.

Works for me

 

[skiny]

Will a game go cold after I hit something? Yes.

Maybe not immediately after I hit something but whether I hit something or not the game will eventually go cold.

Going cold just means you're not winning anymore and I don't care where or what you're playing. If you're gambling eventually you're going to stop winning.

In fact I think most games are "cold" anywhere from 75% to 95% of the time. It doesn't matter if you're playing with slots, cards, a wheel or dice. Unless the game you're playing has a +100% RTP it's mathematically impossible for the game not to go "cold."

The trick to gambling is being there when it's not and getting out before it is.

 

[Nifty29]

Will a game go cold after I hit something? Yes.

Maybe not immediately after I hit something but whether I hit something or not the game will eventually go cold.

Going cold just means you're not winning anymore and I don't care where or what you're playing. If you're gambling eventually you're going to stop winning.

In fact I think most games are "cold" anywhere from 75% to 95% of the time. It doesn't matter if you're playing with slots, cards, a wheel or dice. Unless the game you're playing has a +100% RTP it's mathematically impossible for the game not to go "cold."

The trick to gambling is being there when it's not and getting out before it is.

Well, if it was a very high variance slot, it could still go cold if it were 100%+ RTP.

Good points you raise. It really is all about being in right place at the right time. Knowing about RTP and variance and game choice etc can help you manage your bankroll, but in he final washup its luck that decides your fate at any particular moment.

 

[skiny]

Well, if it was a very high variance slot, it could still go cold if it were 100%+ RTP.

That's true but if it's less than 100% it's impossible not to go cold.

 

[nikantw]

That's true but if it's less than 100% it's impossible not to go cold.

The fact that most raise their bets after a big hit doesn't help either!

 

[BustedFlush]

I hate to admit this but I am incredibly superstitious I think most gamblers are, well it does have a lot to do with luck I recall when I first started gambling (land casinos) I was quite amazed at the people who used to talk to their machines, rub their machines - stare totally glassy eyed at their machines as though that was going to bring them a win..... then hello! a few months later, Im doing exactly the same thing

I used to get really religious when I was on my last few dollars. 'please lord' give me one more hit and I promise I'll be out of here. My religious frenzy only lasted as long as I was in the pub

I haven't read the thread yet on the 'big win then you start loosing' but I kind of share that belief. It probably just is superstition but I have found, if I win anything substantial, I seem to loose constantly right after

Anyhooo solution to that, just bounce to another casino - come back to that other casino (you won off) another day when one's mindset isnt on ' Im probaby gonna loose now, that I won so big'. And probability is that session will just be a normal round of win and loose.

Works for me

Yes, you are more likely to go flat after a big win. RE. the ladders I mentioned in the program layers. You just hit a good rung and had a big win, the way the wins are distributed mean you are unlikely to hit another one immediately, because on each layer of programming the variance comes into effect, and each ladder has a few large wins and many small wins to keep your stake going, on a high variance slot the small wins are fewer but the bigger wins more which means more reloading but biggers wins when the RNG selects the right ladder and rung. Remember the slots are designed mostly (they have to be to retain players) to keep a deposit live as long as possible. For example on TS2 you get many spins giving a fraction of a credit followed by one or two 5 reels wins to rebuild your balance, and at 30p or 60p a spin it's not unusual to play for a couple of hours.

The key to winning and w/d a profit is not hitting the big wins via the reels or free spins per se, but 'overlapping' when the RNG selects these amounts, i.e. you are rewarded with another large win while still playing the product of the previous one, and hopefully again and again so you end up playing for a good few hours and make a decent w/d of your profit. The way the ladders/layers work means you will experience both scenarios - overlapping for profit on one occasion, and attrition of your decent win without replacing it before redepositing, ie, losing.

Again, when you join a casino you get a new seed and RNG of your own, and the ladders/layers will apply to ALL slots you play on that casino - you can see this when the slot retains the same reel pattern from when you last played it. You cannot ever renew this seed, unless opening a duplicate account. You are stuck with it, and it WILL payout very near the advertised RTP/ %age the longer you play there. If you are on a layer without rungs and losing this will happen whichever game you choose, similar with winning.

 

[Nifty29]

Yes, you are more likely to go flat after a big win. RE. the ladders I mentioned in the program layers. You just hit a good rung and had a big win, the way the wins are distributed mean you are unlikely to hit another one immediately, because on each layer of programming the variance comes into effect, and each ladder has a few large wins and many small wins to keep your stake going, on a high variance slot the small wins are fewer but the bigger wins more which means more reloading but biggers wins when the RNG selects the right ladder and rung. Remember the slots are designed mostly (they have to be to retain players) to keep a deposit live as long as possible. For example on TS2 you get many spins giving a fraction of a credit followed by one or two 5 reels wins to rebuild your balance, and at 30p or 60p a spin it's not unusual to play for a couple of hours.

The key to winning and w/d a profit is not hitting the big wins via the reels or free spins per se, but 'overlapping' when the RNG selects these amounts, i.e. you are rewarded with another large win while still playing the product of the previous one, and hopefully again and again so you end up playing for a good few hours and make a decent w/d of your profit. The way the ladders/layers work means you will experience both scenarios - overlapping for profit on one occasion, and attrition of your decent win without replacing it before redepositing, ie, losing.

Again, when you join a casino you get a new seed and RNG of your own, and the ladders/layers will apply to ALL slots you play on that casino - you can see this when the slot retains the same reel pattern from when you last played it. You cannot ever renew this seed, unless opening a duplicate account. You are stuck with it, and it WILL payout very near the advertised RTP/ %age the longer you play there. If you are on a layer without rungs and losing this will happen whichever game you choose, similar with winning.

Ummm....eh??

Sounds like that's made-up to me. I've never heard such things in 15 years.

Unless you have evidence of slots being programmed this way, then I'll just assume this is another "Oh I just have a feeling etc etc" theory.

 

[Tirilej]

Ummm....eh??

Sounds like that's made-up to me. I've never heard such things in 15 years.

Unless you have evidence of slots being programmed this way, then I'll just assume this is another "Oh I just have a feeling etc etc" theory.

Thanks Nifty! I wasn't sure I was understanding correctly, but if what he says is true then it wouldn't be random would it?

 

[BustedFlush]

You confuse 'random' with results picked by a RNG from a program. The two concepts are entirely different.

The results of spins on compterized slots are pre-programmed in many different ladders or layers. The only thing a RNG does when you press spin is select a digital reference to one particular rung/amount, and the only difference between you and say me when we both join a casino, download the software and for example play BDBA for 100000 of recycled stakes is the combination of wins we get on our way to the RTP of 97% which we'll both end up with.

The difference will be when you overlay your peaks and troughs, over mine for the 100000 stakes, the pattern will be different. If you are fortunate enough to get your peaks early in the events after joining the casino for example are at 500% or 2000% you w/d and quit the casino otherwise attrition in the gameplay will ensure you end up at 97%and down overall.

If in any doubt, ask members on here to paste (when they've joined a casino and turned over hundreds of thousands of pounds) their aggregate gaming report and see the figures. If you think online slots are truly random and not compensated or contained then you are in fantasy land. Show me one genuine report where (discounting outside pooled jackpots/awards) of a substantial turnover for several hundred thousand spins/pounds where you have a figure of say 110%.........

 

[skiny]

Yes, you are more likely to go flat after a big win. RE. the ladders I mentioned in the program layers. You just hit a good rung and had a big win, the way the wins are distributed mean you are unlikely to hit another one immediately,

I'm going to assume these ladders and rungs are metaphorical but really instead of good and bad rungs I'd add some snakes so you can slide back down them. After that you pretty much lost me with the layers in the programming.

because on each layer of programming the variance comes into effect, and each ladder has a few large wins and many small wins to keep your stake going, on a high variance slot the small wins are fewer but the bigger wins more which means more reloading but biggers wins when the RNG selects the right ladder and rung. Remember the slots are designed mostly (they have to be to retain players) to keep a deposit live as long as possible.

Variance is going to come into effect in any group of random events and no slot game has a predetermined amount of small or big wins. They are also not designed to keep a deposit as long as possible.

For example on TS2 you get many spins giving a fraction of a credit followed by one or two 5 reels wins to rebuild your balance, and at 30p or 60p a spin it's not unusual to play for a couple of hours.

In any slot game (not just TS2) you get many small wins and if you're lucky a few medium or large ones. The large ones are not there to "rebuild your balance." The large ones are there because "shit happens."

The key to winning and w/d a profit is not hitting the big wins via the reels or free spins per se, but 'overlapping' when the RNG selects these amounts, i.e. you are rewarded with another large win while still playing the product of the previous one, and hopefully again and again so you end up playing for a good few hours and make a decent w/d of your profit.

The key to winning IS hitting the big wins. (I'm not sure how you can hit anything other than "via the reels.") The RNG doesn't select anything. If it did it wouldn't be a random number generator. It would be a selected number generator.

The way the ladders/layers work means you will experience both scenarios - overlapping for profit on one occasion, and attrition of your decent win without replacing it before redepositing, ie, losing.

So basically you're saying "When you play a slot game sometimes you win and sometimes you lose...." Gotcha.

Again, when you join a casino you get a new seed and RNG of your own,

I'd like to know who told you this. I've never heard of every player getting their very own personal seed.

and the ladders/layers will apply to ALL slots you play on that casino

And the snakes.

- you can see this when the slot retains the same reel pattern from when you last played it.

If the slots retain the same reel pattern your seed is broken.

You cannot ever renew this seed, unless opening a duplicate account. You are stuck with it, and it WILL payout very near the advertised RTP/ %age the longer you play there.

Actually if you play there long enough you'll most likely sometimes be way over the casino's advertised RTP and sometimes be way under it.... Because it's random.

If you are on a layer without rungs and losing this will happen whichever game you choose, similar with winning.

So if you're losing it doesn't matter what you do, you'll keep losing and if you're winning you have no choice but to keep winning? So I just keep joining new casinos until I'm finally given a winning seed and then just quit my job?

 

[BustedFlush]

Ummm....eh??

Sounds like that's made-up to me. I've never heard such things in 15 years.

Unless you have evidence of slots being programmed this way, then I'll just assume this is another "Oh I just have a feeling etc etc" theory.

Assume what you like, but before you do, check your various playing reports, look us in the eyes and tell me you aren't down in your years of playing. Try and visualize three-dimensionally the layers. If you like think of the old ticker tape computers used, with the patterns of holes. Imagine many of them stretched out and laid on top of each other, and at one place you'll find a hole lines up for 10 consecutive layers, whereas someplace it's only the top layer, sometimes the first 3, or there is no hole in the top layer, but underneath there are 5 consecutive holes.

These holes are fixed but there are a finite amount which is your 97%. Your press randomly selects a position on these tapes, either hole or blank.

I am trying to explain it in a basic way for those not familiar with programs.

These holes will ensure against freakish events, like hitting a screenful of wilds on 3 consecutive spins or any other results or runs which will be detrimental to a casino operating the software. This is why, in all the trillions of spins done by members here none has come up and posted screenshots or reports of this happening, and never will. If truly random statistically something similar would have occurred, and been bragged about (quite understandably)

 

[BustedFlush]

I'm going to assume these ladders and rungs are metaphorical but really instead of good and bad rungs I'd add some snakes so you can slide back down them. After that you pretty much lost me with the layers in the programming.

Metaphorical indeed, as I intimated. But please, the metaphorical snake has no place here; the ladders are laid flat and stacked, not upright. Poor viper can only slide through them....


Variance is going to come into effect in any group of random events and no slot game has a predetermined amount of small or big wins. They are also not designed to keep a deposit as long as possible.

This is where the complexity of the program comes in. Variance, true, appears in random events of all types. But please remember each ladder has a different permutation of amounts that make the target RTP %age. You don't stay on the same layer/ladder every time the RNG produces a result. This way some players win, some lose in each case substantially or slightly, and you get the appearance of randomness as sequences (although they can and do occur) are limited.


In any slot game (not just TS2) you get many small wins and if you're lucky a few medium or large ones. The large ones are not there to "rebuild your balance." The large ones are there because "shit happens."

I'll pass on how much deference programmers give to the philosophy 'shit happens' but indeed the large ones are there not to rebuild your balance or to make you a profit - that is merely an effect of when the large award occurs and which I was giving an example of.

The key to winning IS hitting the big wins. (I'm not sure how you can hit anything other than "via the reels.") The RNG doesn't select anything. If it did it wouldn't be a random number generator. It would be a selected number generator.

I've said that in another post. Each win/blank is specified in the program and labeled with a number which is randomly selected via RNG. You make a valid point and it actually picks from numbered outcomes i.e. 1 is no win, 2 is half a credit etc. The ladders have different series of numbers. Remember the term RNG is often misused and can mean 'random selector'. Reels are irrelevant: they are merely your visual representation of the outcome selected by the RNG . You can prove this (as I said in another post) for example on MG download casinos by clicking the account tab and checking your balance as soon as you press spin and BEFORE the reels start stopping, and it will show a plus/minus from where it was before you pressed, so you can see what you've won or lost before the reels stop.


So basically you're saying "When you play a slot game sometimes you win and sometimes you lose...." Gotcha.
On a less acidic note I was tring to explain the mechanics of why and how you win and lose.


I'd like to know who told you this. I've never heard of every player getting their very own personal seed.

By seed I refer to a portal into the casino software unique to you and a specific access to the RNG which will be yours alone.



And the snakes.

The snakes lay eggs which appear on your card statement as 0000's behind the first digits of you balance .....

If the slots retain the same reel pattern your seed is broken.

Eh? Go take a screenshot of your last reel display before closing then look again as you reopen the software and go back to the slot.


Actually if you play there long enough you'll most likely sometimes be way over the casino's advertised RTP and sometimes be way under it.... Because it's random.

No it's a managed compensated 'randomness' - the longer you play there the more positions you'd have covered on the layers and the more likely you are to be near or on the RTP setting.


So if you're losing it doesn't matter what you do, you'll keep losing and if you're winning you have no choice but to keep winning? So I just keep joining new casinos until I'm finally given a winning seed and then just quit my job? Let not your faceitousness blind you....

Good luck in finding a casino which pays you over time........

 

[Tirilej]

"By seed I refer to a portal into the casino software unique to you and a specific access to the RNG which will be yours alone."

So you are saying that MG knows exactly where and when I am playing, and no matter how I try, I will probably end up with a payout of 97% over my life?

Well then I feel I shouldn't have started this thread at all since everything I believed has turned upside down, and what I wrote in my first post must be a lie.

 

[Nifty29]

"By seed I refer to a portal into the casino software unique to you and a specific access to the RNG which will be yours alone."

So you are saying that MG knows exactly where and when I am playing, and no matter how I try, I will probably end up with a payout of 97% over my life?

Well then I feel I shouldn't have started this thread at all since everything I believed has turned upside down, and what I wrote in my first post must be a lie.

Honestly tirilej......you're just encouraging bustedflush.

What skiny is trying to say, albeit more politely, is that bustedflush should be nominated for the tinfoil hat monthly award. Skiny and I don't always agree, but this "conspiracy theory du jour" is just a whole lot of madeup fluff to explain how the big bad casinos go out of their way to rig games that are already rigged by their very nature.

BF (bustedflush) told me to "check my casino balance sheet" so that I could see that his central argument is correct. Well, when the main "evidence" he offers is "you will be in a losing position overall", how could one argue? Wow....the revelation that the casino might be AHEAD somehow is just too much to take in all at once....I'll need a few days to digest that one. I can tell you this much.....it is going to be HUGE news when word spreads that casinos might have some kind of edge on players.

I wonder how his theory fits with the fact I'm ahead at some casinos over a 2 year period? Maybe the RNG was playing up, or the wrong "seed" was planted at signup? (Maybe they meant to plant corn and not tomatoes....).

Random slots can and will drain every last dollar out of you with absolutely no interference or adjustment. The whole idea of special unique seeding and dedicated RNGs for each player is totally unnecessary and a complete waste of money for operators and providers. The whole idea is arrant nonsense.

I challenge BF to provide any and all evidence collected to support their theory (which is all it is thus far) so that it can analyzed and discussed. If its just something he dreamt up to explain his losses, I hope he just steps up and says so to save us all some time and himself some embarrassment.

BF....have you posted here under another alias before? You seem familiar somehow. I'll ask Bryan but I thought I'd ask in case you didn't mind saying if you did.

 

[Tirilej]

Sorry Nifty! I just forgot to add my special ironic guy to my last post

Well, I would still encourage him to continue with or without that guy I suppose.

I have to add to this thread something else that I believe you guys are forgetting. We are so many reading this forum that not know English so well. It's going through hell trying to understand some of the posts. No googletranslation will help out either.
If I put it another way. Who are you/we trying to reach?
To explain all of the terms about RTP and RNG and everything else I understand that it's complicated to do with an easier form of the language, but please understand why some of us can't get a grip of what you are trying to say.
I'm not stupid, just Swedish..
...and blond

 

[skiny]

By seed I refer to a portal into the casino software unique to you and a specific access to the RNG which will be yours alone.

A "seed" is not a portal into the casino software. Your internet connection is.

Assume what you like, but before you do, check your various playing reports, look us in the eyes and tell me you aren't down in your years of playing. Try and visualize three-dimensionally the layers. If you like think of the old ticker tape computers used, with the patterns of holes. Imagine many of them stretched out and laid on top of each other, and at one place you'll find a hole lines up for 10 consecutive layers, whereas someplace it's only the top layer, sometimes the first 3, or there is no hole in the top layer, but underneath there are 5 consecutive holes.

These holes are fixed but there are a finite amount which is your 97%. Your press randomly selects a position on these tapes, either hole or blank.

I am trying to explain it in a basic way for those not familiar with programs.

These holes will ensure against freakish events, like hitting a screenful of wilds on 3 consecutive spins or any other results or runs which will be detrimental to a casino operating the software. This is why, in all the trillions of spins done by members here none has come up and posted screenshots or reports of this happening, and never will. If truly random statistically something similar would have occurred, and been bragged about (quite understandably)

"Old" computers used punch cards up until about 30 years ago. I'm pretty sure MG has long since updated at least to 5 1/4 inch floppies.... Maybe even 3 1/2s.


Live support - 32Red

The only way to get a truly set of random numbers is with radio active material and a Geiger counter. Radioactivity is random. Computers are not.

But random can be simulated in a variety of ways. I'm certain that MG has figured out at least one of these ways.

I think one of the most common ways is the use of the computer clock. For example seconds since a specific date or even milliseconds. The "seed" can be generated by the computer clock and used as a starting point in a list of pseudo-random numbers or it can be used as a multiplier.

For a RNG to actually generate random numbers it has to do certain things. It has to generate numbers that are unpredictable, they have to follow no discernible pattern and all possible numbers should eventually appear roughly the same amount of times over a long period of time. (quite often in the millions of iterations.)

For most slot games a combination of the numbers generated by the RNG and the actual layout of the reel strips (which are probably just graphical representations of an array of some sort) will give you the variance for each particular game. A RNG could be generating numbers between 1 and 1000 or 1 and 10,000 and very few of these numbers would be pertaining to a "wild" or "scatter" in the array.

You do not see 5 wilds two or three spins in a row but this is not because the program doesn't allow it. It's because the odds of it happening are in the billions to 1.

The odds of winning the OLG 6/49 lottery are 1 in 13,983,816. People don't win it two draws in a row but it's not because the lottery has programmed the game not to pick the same numbers twice. They don't win it two draws in a row because they'd have better odds trying to throw a pencil through a paper clip.... from 50 feet away...... blind folded.

 

[Jasminebed]

It is the nature of the human beast to seek patterns where none exist, to find order in chaos.

I'm reasonably familiar with Random Number Generation and the pseudo-random number generation that most online games use.

True Random Number Generators can be atomic decomposition, although electronic noise is frequently used. Other natural phenomena such as wind rustling leaves will produce random numbers.

Pseudo-RNGs use a series of mathematical formulas to produce random results. A reference to RNG will mean a Pseudo-RNG from hereon. A "seed" or start point is used to generate a result. EVERY spin produces a new seed in order to generate a random result. A RNG is usually considered satisfactory if a trial of a very large simulation does not generate a "loop". RNGs with smaller test runs may be satisfactory for other purposes. The most common seed is time... it moves forward and does not repeat itself. It may be true (I have no knowledge) that an individual account may it's own start point for that clock. There will be another factor used as well by the casino most likely. It's been 10 to the power of 4000 nanoseconds plus 92 since you first joined the casino, as opposed to it's been 10 to the power of 4 trillion nanoseconds since the dawn of time. I didn't do the math on that one, I'm just trying to make a point.

The result is not truly generated when you hit the spin on your end, it's generated when the casino server receives the info that you pressed the spin button. Your ISP, your computer, internet traffic will all affect the exact seed that's used, so even if it was a poor RNG (say looping after 10,000 generated numbers), it would be pretty much impossible to control which nanosecond your spin would hit the casino server, and you don't have any knowledge of the formulas used in that particular RNG. That's pretty random.

After your randomized result is determined, the casino will send some pretty display to your computer screen. When people talk about hitting stats and seeing the amount of the win before the reels have stopped in MG casinos, it's because the little bitty text number in that stats screen was much quicker to arrive (although both packets were sent at the same time) and be processed than the complex eye-candy of the slot reels in motion.

This site has some basics for those interested further check out www.random.org

While they may describe PRNGs as unsuitable for gambling applications, remember what that company is selling. It is not practical in any way to use a TRNG to produce a result where 5 or more million possible results are needed.

While I don't know, I wouldn't be surprised to find that most of the 5 reel Video slots don't have just one turn at an RNG, but rather each reel is generated independently, with the length of the strip being the determinant. There are some interesting threads about this here too.

Land Based slot machines with physical reels are weighted, and I do know from insider knowledge that they use a clock to seed their PRNG. The online three-reelers are weighted also.

 

[Jasminebed]

Sorry Nifty! I just forgot to add my special ironic guy to my last post

Well, I would still encourage him to continue with or without that guy I suppose.

I have to add to this thread something else that I believe you guys are forgetting. We are so many reading this forum that not know English so well. It's going through hell trying to understand some of the posts. No googletranslation will help out either.
If I put it another way. Who are you/we trying to reach?
To explain all of the terms about RTP and RNG and everything else I understand that it's complicated to do with an easier form of the language, but please understand why some of us can't get a grip of what you are trying to say.
I'm not stupid, just Swedish..
...and blond

Posters like Busted Flush will use a few industry terms, combined with some fallacies, that may sound good, but are based on wrong or incomplete premises. I think his understanding of how RNGs work is flawed.

 

[skiny]

Yes, it's true. There are other methods.

 

[Tirilej]

Posters like Busted Flush will use a few industry terms, combined with some fallacies, that may sound good, but are based on wrong or incomplete premises. I think his understanding of how RNGs work is flawed.

Since I and many others, english speakers or not, probably didn't understand what BustedFlush were saying at all, (I couldn't read half of his first post in this thread), I'm so happy that there are so many members here that really have true knowledge.
I have to trust that what you're saying is true, or I'm questioning how the whole gambling businis is set up. I would never gamble if I didn't believe it was fair and honest.

 

[Nifty29]

Yes, it's true. There are other methods.

View attachment 31687

LOL

 

[Gremmyboy]

I've PM'd JStrike to ask for his opinion on what Bustedflush has stated. JStrike is always straight to the point and tells it like it is with no bullshit!

Figured I'd love to hear his opinion on the posts made by Bustedflush and get some counter arguments and valid explanations.


Cheers
Gremmy

 

[jstrike]

Gremmy asked me to weigh in on this, so here goes. Usual disclaimer: I can only say for sure based on how my own software works. What I know about other companies' software is gathered from reading audit handbooks from different licensing jurisdictions, and the technical requirements for becoming a licensed game manufacturer in Nevada (which, btw, I'm not -- the cost of that license is in the mid-six-figures). What I do know for sure is that if you were going to rig software, the method described by BustedFlush would not only be illegal in most jurisdictions, it would also be a really long, roundabout and completely pointless way to get right back to the same drop/hold (and same RTP) the house gets anyway from completely random machines (or online games).

BustedFlush's theory of ladders is an interesting way of visualizing streaks of wins and losses, but it's actually just a way of trying to infuse personal meaning into randomness, and in the end that's just another twist on the gambler's fallacy. And it rests on a few false assumptions.

1. No casino I know of keeps a separate set of random numbers, or a separate RNG, for each player. It's not feasible. There's also no point.

2. There's a misunderstanding about RTP. RTP is just an average for the whole casino over time. It's not a guarantee that any one player is going to average that. Yes, the more spins you have, the closer you will get to approaching it. If you're the only player in the casino, and you spin 10 million times, then you'd better well be getting close to the advertised RTP. But it would be completely freakish if every player in a casino ended up at exactly the same RTP, even over 100,000 spins. When I simulate new games, I need to test at least a million spins to even get within 1% of knowing what a game's real RTP will be. And slots are not designed for the purpose of keeping each individual's payouts approaching the expected RTP. They don't need to be, because that's just a natural side effect of the fact that over time, they're going to average out to that for the casino as a whole. The casino doesn't care if it's one guy pulling the slot a million times, or a million players pulling it once. The casino doesn't care if you win the jackpot twice, and someone else wins zero times. And it doesn't care who you are, or who he is. It doesn't need to put you on a personalized program. All the house cares about is the percentage it keeps.

3. If a house wanted to limit its volatility - to prevent the freak occurrence of, say, 20 large jackpots paying out in a row - the correct way to do that is by leveraging progressive jackpots. Money sitting in progressives, to the house, is already a loss on the books, and therefore not a risk. If a house wanted to cheat to do it, by forcing machines to not pay jackpots for some period of time after the last one was paid, there would be no reason to do that on a player-by-player basis. That would actually be less effective than just stopping all jackpots for some length of time, and far more costly and difficult to do from a software perspective. Either way, with thousands of players, the chances of the last jackpot winner being the one to hit it next are very remote. But again, why would the casino care if you hit it twice? That's actually good PR.

4. Runs of good or bad luck don't need to be explained by personal predestined patterns. I see it all the time where one player on a slot is having an amazing run going up, while another one at the exact same time is going down. BustedFlush's example is about one person's variance, but the reality any floor manager can see is that the luck of players is just a reflection of RTP working itself out on a larger scale. As a basic example, on a slot with 95% RTP, two players can put in $50 at the same time, and one guy will often walk away with $95, and the other guy leaves empty. This isn't because the casino has rigged it so one's on a winning streak and the other one's on a losing streak, it's just a feature of randomness, plus the fact that some people walk away while they're up and others don't. In fact, the best way to see it from the casino's point of view is that we're just redistributing one player's money to another, and keeping 5% for ourselves. If everyone just ended up with 95% of what they started with, there'd be no reason for anyone to play. It's the variance between players that actually makes gambling interesting, not the variance for one player between spins. You think it's your own variance that keeps you interested, but your own chance of winning only exists because (1) you're not playing for an infinite length of time, and (2) other people are losing more than the house is keeping. Again, there's absolutely no reason to have pre-programmed sequences for all of a player's lifetime spins for that to happen, it just happens naturally.

One of the reasons I invented the game Mayan Gold was to disprove exactly this kind of theory. Mayan Gold is basically a 3-reel, 6-line slot, where the reels are turned sideways so you can see all the icons around them, and put on a table where they spin in opposite directions like a triple wheel of fortune. Ten people can sit around the table and share the same reels, and every symbol ends up on someone's pay lines. Some of the symbols are repeated. When you have 10 people sitting around the same table, they're all sharing their own part of the same three reels, and at least one player wins on almost any given spin. But even though the game has extremely high variance, it keeps a 96.6% RTP for the table over time, and that's completely achieved by choosing the payout amounts carefully, and ultimately by the percentage kept in the progressive jackpot at each table. 20% of each bet goes into the progressive pot. If we wanted to change the game's RTP, we'd only have to change what percentage goes into the progressives. It's proof of the principle that in a casino, one guy's loss is another guy's luck, and it's not personal or preprogrammed. The law of large numbers and randomness take care of everything.

 

[Gremmyboy]

Thanks for that Josh!



Cheers
Gremmy

 

[vinylweatherman]

New VWM

Don't be in a hurry to throw out the old one just yet

BustedFlush has described one method of programming a compensated slot or "fruit machine", and is probably very close to the way the simple games like Bar-X were programmed. These simple or "Lo-Tech" fruit machine games tended to run on a long cycle, and this would repeat itself after a large number of spins (tens of thousands). When better processors became available, a more dynamic method of compensation became possible that relied less on cycles, and more on controlling future outcomes depending on whether the machine was paying over, or under, it's set RTP. It also allowed for a "streak pot" to be used that could be triggered by a predetermined set of criteria (and which could often be "forced out" by the experienced player ). The base game on such Fruities would pay a lower RTP, and put the surplus into the streak pot. "Forcing" meant deliberately refusing ALL "base" wins, thus forcing ALL this pent up RTP into the streak pot, thus bringing forward it's trigger point. This relied on one triggering parameter being the short term RTP of past play, and the belief that if this was forced too low, the program would compensate in the only manner available to it by triggering the payment of the streak pot. This worked very well on some games, but was quite a struggle to pull of on others.

The problem with the old Bar-X machines was that when new, the current RTP for past spins was zero, thus the first spins paid over 100% RTP in an effort to bring the compensation RTP parameter up from zero to a point somewhat above the set RTP, at which point the compensation code began to function normally. Running off the first 10,000 spins before installing the machine just meant that the compensator had "settled", and the machine would stick closely to the set RTP thereafter.

In most online games, there are none of these rungs, ladders, compensators, etc. Many don't even have weighting. This is because unlike physical slots, they can have as many symbols on a reel as needed to allow operation on simple random principles. Each reel would also run from it's own separate call to the RNG. Having each reel determined this way serves to counter the disadvantages of using pseudo-random numbers, which have the convenience of being cheaper to use, and can be part of the machine itself, even run as a separate task on the same processor chip.

The rules for the UK variant stipulate that a separate "unit" must generate the RNG, rather than it being done on the same processor that runs the game. These units were proposed to be "external to the machine", which could be interpreted as having to be elsewhere and connected by a cable, but this was impractical, so most manufacturers placed the RNG unit in the same cabinet, but used a separate processing "unit".

The external unit and cable could also be used as an exploit by disconnecting the machine from it's own RNG and adding a "gaffed" unit designed to trick the machine into paying out. Pulling this off would require some inside knowledge of what data the machine expected from it's own RNG, and how it would be interpreted. Knowing this meant you could send it data that it would interpret as a few big wins close together, which would empty the machine.

These theories gain credibilty because some CASINOS believe them, and we hear tales of players having winnings confiscated because a machine has "paid too much" to be the result of chance. The most recent case is that of Sky Vegas, who claim that the big wins from the new "Treasure Ireland" game were a "malfunction", rather than an unusual run of luck. The code for a simple random slot game just CANNOT "malfunction" like this unless something very obvious is wrong, such as a paytable error. For the fault to be more subtle, code that shouldn't even be there has to have malfunctioned.

All the doubters see Sky Vegas and others using this argument when they are faced with players winning too much, so why is it so far fetched an argument when a player has LOST far more than they believe is possible for a "fair" and "random" slot game.

For this to stay firmly with the "foil hat brigade", online casinos need to purge those member of the "foil hat brigade" that have somehow managed to get jobs with them.

 

[Tirilej]

Thanks jstrike for explaining in a language that even I could understand
I wish as many as possible will read it...and understand what you are saying.

And a big thank you to you VWM for being who you are. Nope, I don't want to replace you
(but that please please please I asked you about still stands)

 

[jstrike]

VWM - that's an amazing technical explanation...

The base game on such Fruities would pay a lower RTP, and put the surplus into the streak pot.

I actually didn't know they did that, but it makes sense in principle. For people who don't get the huge significance of what VWM's saying here...when you're designing a slot machine, imagine you're starting with three reels and you're putting symbols on them, and there are more instances of some symbols than there are others. So for example, there are three cherries on the third reel, but only one bar. You can also weight the reels so they're more likely to land on a cherry, which multiplies that effect. But eventually you end up with some fixed number of cherries times their weight, and you have to make a paytable and figure out what that pays.

So you write a pay table. And you're aiming to make it so the payouts add up to the RTP you want on the game. You could set a 95% payback for any combination, but that's no fun. So what you do is start paying back 0% on the most likely combinations, and then paying back more than 100% on the least likely ones, until you find a balance where there's enough variability to keep the game interesting but not so much that players have to wait more than a few spins without getting paid.

But by convention, slot payouts are always done in multiples of the bet amount. So inevitably, your pay table is going to pay a little bit over or under the RTP you actually want. Let's say your chances of hitting two cherries should pay out 2.2:1. So you remove that extra .2 from the payout, and make it pay 2:1, and then you weight the extra onto the next payout up, say three cherries. You keep doing that all the way up the paytable until the end, when you're faced with something like 3 bars that pays out 2500.87 to 1. And you have that 87¢ left hanging over, and nowhere to go with it if you want to make a perfect RTP. One way of dealing with that is to round the top payout down to the nearest whole number, and put the leftovers percentage into a progressive pot. Another way, that VWM's alluding to, would be to put it into a secret pot inside the machine itself and pay it out in streaks.

Online casinos don't have to worry about it, because we can just start by designing a game around a 95% RTP, and then test it and see yeah, if we have to round three bells down to pay $100 instead of $100.14, then the RTP just went down to 94.876% or something, so that's the RTP we're going to announce. But a game that was required to have an exact whole-number RTP could never have all whole-number payouts, or vice versa. And so it could never rely completely on randomness...there would have to be an extra "kick" that paid players a little more once in awhile, to make up for the shortfall that was caused by rounding the payout amounts.

My ignorance, that VWM pointed out, was that I didn't know they actually did that in Vegas. But it does make sense if the law says you have to pay that percentage, no matter what. The only other way to do it, besides a progressive pot, is you'd have to have a reel on your slot that was almost infinitely huge. So tip of the hat to VWM. Still, none of that means they're tracking one player's behavior in any way.

 

[vinylweatherman]

VWM - that's an amazing technical explanation...



I actually didn't know they did that, but it makes sense in principle. For people who don't get the huge significance of what VWM's saying here...when you're designing a slot machine, imagine you're starting with three reels and you're putting symbols on them, and there are more instances of some symbols than there are others. So for example, there are three cherries on the third reel, but only one bar. You can also weight the reels so they're more likely to land on a cherry, which multiplies that effect. But eventually you end up with some fixed number of cherries times their weight, and you have to make a paytable and figure out what that pays.

So you write a pay table. And you're aiming to make it so the payouts add up to the RTP you want on the game. You could set a 95% payback for any combination, but that's no fun. So what you do is start paying back 0% on the most likely combinations, and then paying back more than 100% on the least likely ones, until you find a balance where there's enough variability to keep the game interesting but not so much that players have to wait more than a few spins without getting paid.

But by convention, slot payouts are always done in multiples of the bet amount. So inevitably, your pay table is going to pay a little bit over or under the RTP you actually want. Let's say your chances of hitting two cherries should pay out 2.2:1. So you remove that extra .2 from the payout, and make it pay 2:1, and then you weight the extra onto the next payout up, say three cherries. You keep doing that all the way up the paytable until the end, when you're faced with something like 3 bars that pays out 2500.87 to 1. And you have that 87¢ left hanging over, and nowhere to go with it if you want to make a perfect RTP. One way of dealing with that is to round the top payout down to the nearest whole number, and put the leftovers percentage into a progressive pot. Another way, that VWM's alluding to, would be to put it into a secret pot inside the machine itself and pay it out in streaks.

Online casinos don't have to worry about it, because we can just start by designing a game around a 95% RTP, and then test it and see yeah, if we have to round three bells down to pay $100 instead of $100.14, then the RTP just went down to 94.876% or something, so that's the RTP we're going to announce. But a game that was required to have an exact whole-number RTP could never have all whole-number payouts, or vice versa. And so it could never rely completely on randomness...there would have to be an extra "kick" that paid players a little more once in awhile, to make up for the shortfall that was caused by rounding the payout amounts.

My ignorance, that VWM pointed out, was that I didn't know they actually did that in Vegas. But it does make sense if the law says you have to pay that percentage, no matter what. The only other way to do it, besides a progressive pot, is you'd have to have a reel on your slot that was almost infinitely huge. So tip of the hat to VWM. Still, none of that means they're tracking one player's behavior in any way.

They don't. This is a peculiaralty of the UK "Fruit Machine", and was more common when the jackpot was limited to around £4.80 on a 20p stake. The "streak pot" was a way to make the game more interesting, yet stay just inside the law. The "streak" could pay over £20 in a single session of winning spins, but 20p was deducted as a fresh stake at every £4.80 interval.

Streaks are less common now that the top jackpot is £70 for stakes between 25p and £1. The £70 is only allowed to repeat ONCE to £140 under the new rules, and rarely happens in any case. Rather than a streak pot, players now get the £70 jackpot given to them, after which the machine usually goes pretty cold.

The video slots that pay up to £500 on stakes up to £2 have no need for a streak pot, as £500 is exciting enough on it's own, even for a £2 stake.

UK Fruit Machines are set from 72% to 78%, and the £500 jackpot games are set between 88% and 92%.

 

[Nifty29]

VWM - that's an amazing technical explanation...



I actually didn't know they did that, but it makes sense in principle. For people who don't get the huge significance of what VWM's saying here...when you're designing a slot machine, imagine you're starting with three reels and you're putting symbols on them, and there are more instances of some symbols than there are others. So for example, there are three cherries on the third reel, but only one bar. You can also weight the reels so they're more likely to land on a cherry, which multiplies that effect. But eventually you end up with some fixed number of cherries times their weight, and you have to make a paytable and figure out what that pays.

So you write a pay table. And you're aiming to make it so the payouts add up to the RTP you want on the game. You could set a 95% payback for any combination, but that's no fun. So what you do is start paying back 0% on the most likely combinations, and then paying back more than 100% on the least likely ones, until you find a balance where there's enough variability to keep the game interesting but not so much that players have to wait more than a few spins without getting paid.

But by convention, slot payouts are always done in multiples of the bet amount. So inevitably, your pay table is going to pay a little bit over or under the RTP you actually want. Let's say your chances of hitting two cherries should pay out 2.2:1. So you remove that extra .2 from the payout, and make it pay 2:1, and then you weight the extra onto the next payout up, say three cherries. You keep doing that all the way up the paytable until the end, when you're faced with something like 3 bars that pays out 2500.87 to 1. And you have that 87¢ left hanging over, and nowhere to go with it if you want to make a perfect RTP. One way of dealing with that is to round the top payout down to the nearest whole number, and put the leftovers percentage into a progressive pot. Another way, that VWM's alluding to, would be to put it into a secret pot inside the machine itself and pay it out in streaks.

Online casinos don't have to worry about it, because we can just start by designing a game around a 95% RTP, and then test it and see yeah, if we have to round three bells down to pay $100 instead of $100.14, then the RTP just went down to 94.876% or something, so that's the RTP we're going to announce. But a game that was required to have an exact whole-number RTP could never have all whole-number payouts, or vice versa. And so it could never rely completely on randomness...there would have to be an extra "kick" that paid players a little more once in awhile, to make up for the shortfall that was caused by rounding the payout amounts.

My ignorance, that VWM pointed out, was that I didn't know they actually did that in Vegas. But it does make sense if the law says you have to pay that percentage, no matter what. The only other way to do it, besides a progressive pot, is you'd have to have a reel on your slot that was almost infinitely huge. So tip of the hat to VWM. Still, none of that means they're tracking one player's behavior in any way.

What VWM said is standard knowledge for UK fruitie players (the serious ones anyway).

I don't think fruities were ever used in Las Vegas.....only SKY Vegas.

 

[jstrike]

What VWM said is standard knowledge for UK fruitie players (the serious ones anyway).

I don't think fruities were ever used in Las Vegas.....only SKY Vegas.

If I read it right, it's different from parimutuel or Class II slots, or what they call "fruit machines" in the UK, though...what he's saying would apply to anything that has a pay-table a little lower than the reported RTP. I don't know if it's legal to re-invest that to the player in Vegas, but that was how I took his comments...

Edit: I just read VWM's post -- for some reason I missed it before. So now I understand this has to do with parimutuel slots, which is a whole different animal, never seen in Vegas. I still don't know whether what he's describing would be legal in vegas or not... but, the main point is that this is a contortion of the game to fit a certain set of laws, and there's no reason you'd build something like that unless it was to get around a government.

 

[BustedFlush]

Thanks for responses and apologies for convoluted explanations, up in 6 hours for 4 day installation away from base, so will look to respond in turn to points in this thread hopefully Thursday evening or Friday.

 

[Nifty29]

Thanks for responses and apologies for convoluted explanations, up in 6 hours for 4 day installation away from base, so will look to respond in turn to points in this thread hopefully Thursday evening or Friday.

We'll keep the shiny silver hat on ice

 

[ksech]

I've been up almost 24 hrs now, so this may add to my confusion (probably not though)...what is BustedFlush talking about? I thought I was a semi-intelligent person...have understood VWM's responses, JStrike's responses, skiny's responses, Nifty's responses...going to go look for my "I'm stoopid cap" and my "I may be smarter tomorrow pills"

 

[zap987]

I've been up almost 24 hrs now, so this may add to my confusion (probably not though)...what is BustedFlush talking about? I thought I was a semi-intelligent person...have understood VWM's responses, JStrike's responses, skiny's responses, Nifty's responses...going to go look for my "I'm stoopid cap" and my "I may be smarter tomorrow pills"

If his wall of text doesn't seem to make sense it is because it doesn't. He uses a lot of words to say nothing that has any resemblance to how it actually works and is basically just a bunch of conspiracy theories presented as facts.

 

[KasinoKing]

The difference will be when you overlay your peaks and troughs, over mine for the 100000 stakes, the pattern will be different. If you are fortunate enough to get your peaks early in the events after joining the casino for example are at 500% or 2000% you w/d and quit the casino otherwise attrition in the gameplay will ensure you end up at 97%and down overall.

If in any doubt, ask members on here to paste (when they've joined a casino and turned over hundreds of thousands of pounds) their aggregate gaming report and see the figures. If you think online slots are truly random and not compensated or contained then you are in fantasy land. Show me one genuine report where (discounting outside pooled jackpots/awards) of a substantial turnover for several hundred thousand spins/pounds where you have a figure of say 110%.........

I think you're getting arcade type Fruit Machines & Slots confused with Online Slots.

Of course you will gradually get closer to the published RTP the more you play - it's simple mathematics. This will still happen with a 100% completely random game.
Take Euro Roulette - a player could win big on his first few spins - or start with a horrible losing streak. But the longer he keeps playing the more it would even-out until he gets very close to a loss of 2.7027% of all the bets he placed.
Again, simple mathematics; there are 37 spots on the wheel and every win for a bet on a single number returns bet x36.

As has been said ad infinitum, EVERY casino game has a house edge which 100% guarantees the house WILL win in the long run.
They don't NEED to cheat - and they would be very foolish to risk it because if they got caught cheating it would be disastrous for them.

KK

 

[beachball8]

I think you're getting arcade type Fruit Machines & Slots confused with Online Slots.

Of course you will gradually get closer to the published RTP the more you play - it's simple mathematics. This will still happen with a 100% completely random game.
Take Euro Roulette - a player could win big on his first few spins - or start with a horrible losing streak. But the longer he keeps playing the more it would even-out until he gets very close to a loss of 2.7027% of all the bets he placed.
Again, simple mathematics; there are 37 spots on the wheel and every win for a bet on a single number returns bet x36.

As has been said ad infinitum, EVERY casino game has a house edge which 100% guarantees the house WILL win in the long run.
They don't NEED to cheat - and they would be very foolish to risk it because if they got caught cheating it would be disastrous for them.

KK

Or the casinos could just cheat and win more in a shorter time.

 

[Tirilej]

Or the casinos could just cheat and win more in a shorter time.

They could, but it would be really stupid since they would go out of business if they got caught.
Most casinos will win in the long run anyway. One thing to be scared about is new casinos trying to make fast money. Always do your homework before you sign up to any casino.

 

[Nifty29]

Or the casinos could just cheat and win more in a shorter time.

Yes they could.

In fact, some dodgy operators have written software to do just that. However, none of the major suppliers have ever done so, as there are too many very smart people around who can spot that kind of nonsense from a mile away.

If you think this is what MGS and RTG and wagerworks etc do, then I assume you don't play online any more. If you do still play, then it doesn't sat much for your theory does it? How could you expect anyone to take you seriously when you don't believe it yourself? Just an example....not saying this is you..its just that I've seen so many people come here and accuse good operators of cheating only to come back later and tell us how they lost again.

 

[threescatters]

In fact, some dodgy operators have written software to do just that. However, none of the major suppliers have ever done so,.

Nifty, I agree that all the major software suppliers are fair, and I share your loathing of conspiracy theories. However your statement above is wrong, and I urge you to check your facts before making such sweeping statements.

The history of partygaming shows rigged software sadly, from their wikipedia page

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"In the 1990s, Las Vegas consultant and actuary Michael Shackleford ran a computer trial of the first blackjack and roulette games offered by the company. Shackleford stated that the "results clearly showed they (the games) weren't fair". Ruth Parasol's spokesman Jon Mendelsohn acknowledged that the chances had "tipped too much toward the house", but attributed the problems to "software flaws", not rigging. It led to the development of their own proprietary software rather than using external platforms.[16]"

This partygaming rigged software story appeared on shacklefords blacklist page itself for a long time, before disappearing without explanation. Nonetheless they had live, rigged, software at the start. I have no doubt they are fair now tho, and have been for many years.

 

[KasinoKing]

This partygaming rigged software story appeared on shacklefords blacklist page itself for a long time, before disappearing without explanation. Nonetheless they had live, rigged, software at the start. I have no doubt they are fair now tho, and have been for many years.

Party Casino did not (and still do not AFAIK) use any of the "Big Name" software brands that Nifty was talking about.
I believe (I know I will be corrected if wrong!) that it was/is their "Own Brand" made specifically for their own casinos.

KK

 

[threescatters]

Party Casino did not (and still do not AFAIK) use any of the "Big Name" software brands that Nifty was talking about.
I believe (I know I will be corrected if wrong!) that it was/is their "Own Brand" made specifically for their own casinos.

KK

Yeah ok. I took PartyGamings casinos to fall under the "big brand" category.

I guess this is subjective and entirely up to each individual to decide what is a big brand in online gambling.

 

[Fed up]

It is very hard to trust that online gaming is 100% random. Software created by man will have some sort of "randomness algorithm" built in - they are at best, pseudo-random. Even things such as PRBS (pseudo random bit sequence) is "pseudo".

As such, you can win if you "play the percentages". Patience is key.