Scary thoughts about Casinos

Tirilej

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I have reading a thread where people are saying that after a big win in a casino all the games goes cold.
I don't want to derail that thread so I start my own instead.

I have been gambling for 20 years. For every and the same reasons that everyone else I suppose. I hit my bottom at one point. Got up and started to educate myself about gambling addiction.
I worked for several years with helping gamblers to quit and take responsible for their own lifes and their own actions.
I know I saved a few and that made it worth the effort.

What amazed me most, and still do, is the fact that people are so supersticious when it comes to gambling.
When sitting by the computer many gamblers believe that it makes a differense how they click the mouse. If it's night or day when they play.
Ask DeBeuker if he can win on mondays:p
Small things are standing all over the table just to bring luck.
I know I'm counting spins, believing that I often win at a certain amount of spins:oops: , so embarrasing I know, but I can't help myself.
There is a lot of strange things we do, think or believe when it comes to gambling.

My question is just this. How stupid are we?:confused:

Back to the thread about machines that stops paying after a big win. That's absolutely not true!!!

If you believe so you also believe that the machine you are playing have some kind of intelligence. That it's maybe a person. (Don't tell me you never have talked to your computer, or the game you're playing);)
If so, you believe that the game you have played knows that you have been winning that amount, and not only that game but all other games too. They probably have some kind of conversation, telling all the other games that he has already been winning. You can't give him more.
The boss of the games tell the casino who is spreading the rumour to all MG's out there, or all RTG's or Rival, saying that they can't let him win any more. He has to lose first, and the best would be if he lose a little more than he has been winning.

Can't you see the stupid way of thinking? Can't you see it's not a person or has a mind of it's own? It doesn't know you and don't know that you are there. It's a programmed machine!
Now please don't through your sceen out of the window because you think that I'm crazy and don't know what I'm talking about. After all, that screen can't be blamed for anything either:)
 

immortality

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I believe that after a big win, if you push your luck, you will end up giving it all back, Whether it be at land casino or online, it has happened to me at land casino, so no the games online are no different than land slot games:)
 

Tirilej

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I believe that after a big win, if you push your luck, you will end up giving it all back, Whether it be at land casino or online, it has happened to me at land casino, so no the games online are no different than land slot games:)

That is exactly what I trying to make you understand. You could keep on having the same luck every time you play. Or you can lose every time you play. It has nothing to do with the fact that you were lucky one time. Who would know? Who would say that you can't win again? There is no God making the decision:)
 

Stovetopp

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Nice post Tiriley

Another thing is when you really feel good and very lucky , the unfortunate thing is the machine , or cards or dice didn't know or someone fogot to tell them :))

I have had back to back Royals playing on a land based casino and some don't believe it. Another thing. Another big misconception is that once a machine hits it wont hit any more.

Most folks here are savvy to the things you wrote however there are those which just amaze me
and those are the ones the casinos love
 

Tirilej

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Nice post Tiriley

Another thing is when you really feel good and very lucky , the unfortunate thing is the machine , or cards or dice didn't know or someone fogot to tell them :))

I have had back to back Royals playing on a land based casino and some don't believe it. Another thing. Another big misconception is that once a machine hits it wont hit any more.

Most folks here are savvy to the things you wrote however there are those which just amaze me
and those are the ones the casinos love

I completely agree! I just read someone was whining over a particular group. They have the most dead machines he ever have experienced and it was strange that he could be so unlucky. He in fact closed the accounts never to play there anymore.
Well, then it had to be personal:eek2:

It can not have anything to do with what game he played, what time he played, what betsize he had.
It can not have anything to do with RTP or any other gamblingterm.
The casino must have been deciding before he started that no way...we can't let that guy win!:rolleyes:

Sorry for being a little ironic. I can't really help myself:p
 

LaHutti

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I think the real problem is, that players ... and compulsive gamblers in particular have is, that they don't understand, that the mathematics say, that they are going to lose, and STILL they approach it, as if they're "supposed" to win, and when they don't, they start chasing their losses, because they're "supposed" to win. When chasing losses doesn't work, they blame the games, because something MUST be wrong....after all they're "supposed" to win
I wish there was a way to explain to gamblers, that once you press that button the first time, you're already on the path to lose. I know a lot of people, including myself, have tried in every possible way, to explain this over and over, but if you're addicted to gambling, or anything else, you tend to block out, what you don't want to hear.
Bottom line is, if you gamble, you lose, not because the games are rigged, but because you can't beat the math !
 

BustedFlush

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Changing stake can affect how your slot plays. People often think the slots are totally random but they are not. The outcome is picked randomly, yes, but we all know we experience patterns. This is because the randomness is not open-ended. The only game that is truly open-ended and random is a physical roulette wheel - there is no compensation to stop a person say betting 36 and hitting it 20 consecutive times at billions to one. You wouldn't do it on online roulette. In blackjack your randomness is restricted by the shoe and its 4 or 6 decks. Yes, superstition is pointless but subliminal optimism or pessimism while you play is due to recognition usually of previous similar events and their results.

Computerized gambling is NOT totally random and anybody who thinks so is misled. You randomly pick, when you press play, a preprogrammed event that is represented as a reel win or loss and you get the monetary value. This program will ensure the longer you play the slot, the nearer you will get to the RTP say 97%. To make it a gamble the wins are varied in amount and frequency. An ultra high variance as possible on 97% would pay you say 97 pounds once in 100 spins and zero on all others. The opposite low varaince would pay you 97pence EVERY spin continuously.

OK, this is how it is done. There are outcomes set to pay x% over x amount of revenue/plays. For example, you may find a slot that pays its 97% as 194 50 pound wins or 97 100 pound wins (simplified) over 10000 pounds worth of spins. Imagine this as a ladder with 10000 rungs and a rung is missing for each zero spin. That is ONE layer of the program. In the program will be numerous other ladders with outcomes of 97% expressed as different wins, again with missing rungs. Put all these ladders on top of each other, and imagine there is a rung where you win on a spin. Now imagine the next player loses so falls down through to the next ladder. There is a win and he stops falling. Think 3-dimensionally. Unlucky player 1 falls though 25 ladders before hitting a rung. Player 2 hardly falls, but when he does only one or two ladders down. He is well above %age and player 1 is well below.

This is why we remember sequences which DO occur but cannot predict the next spin. Add in complications like freespins (where all they are is one rung of one ladder with a predetermined total which is spread over the x amount of 'free' spins) or different types of freespins like TS2 or IR. The outcome (total amount won on freespins of any type) is simply one rung of the ladder with x amount of win. This is why for example on TS2 it makes NO difference what freespin you opt for. All of them can quite easily pay only 2.3 credits and all can seemingly pay the capped amount of just under 300 x stake.
All the super pooled jackpots are is a run from every ladder removed and added to a pool and do not affect the payout of your slot. Because of restraints put in the programs to prevent freakish damage to casinos you would never win say 2 consecutive 5 wilds on TS2 or get a 100 stake up to millions on the computer roulette. Each layer or ladder does have a fixed sequence of wins on it which is why some people can recognize what will happen next subconsciously. When you select a RNG number you know that this selects a ladder/layer as well as an amount. This is why some win overall and some lose but those factors are mostly temporary. If you don't quit and don't w/d you almost certainly will lose as the average value of the same stake deposited loses effectively 3% every time it's used. This is the problem some compulsive gamblers and those that never make a w/d don't seem to see.
Therefore it is NO use keeping playing and saying 'I always lose' in monetary terms. What you need to know to decide if you have really lost is the amount in cash played including recycling and the total amount won including recycling. RTP.

It is also worth stating the new slot effect. In arcades, the old bar-x machines used to be fixed at percentage in the programs and would always payout well in excess of 100% until they 'settled' much to chagrin of some arcades and the delight of us that knew it and would fight to get on a brand new one being installed. Eventally a program was made that plugged in and played the first 10,000 spins. Fun over.

It is also worth mentioning that some casinos, especially Wagerworks I noticed, tended to get you to a profit quite quickly when you were a new player, i.e. on the undulations along the 97% line you would get an up rise quite a short way into your play. I had one WW a/c whereby I played the same slot for almost a year every weekend. Before I left I had a look at my play figures and they were something like 297000 staked and 290800 returned. I had hit almost the exactly advertised RTP over this amount of spins. When you open a casino a/c you get a fresh 'seed' i.e. a new registry of RNG entries. This applies over the whole casino so if you were on a losing streak on say TS2 and changed to IR and lost on that, you are getting the same outcome as you would have got on TS2 if you had stayed on it.

I know this my get some indignant replies, I have over-simplified it maybe, and may incur some pedantry but the proof is in the pudding. Online gaming is compensated to an extent; it has to be for both player and casino. Then play at any casino for tens of thousands of pounds turnover, look at your playcheck for stakes played and returned (not money deposited and cashed-out) and see them very near the advertised %age.
 

Tirilej

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Thanks for the reply BustedFlush! (I believe we got ourselves a new VWM);)

I believe that what you are saying is correct. I'm not that good in math or technical details so I take what you experts are saying as facts. To be honest. I didn't understand half of it:oops:

That was also one of the reasons I started this thread. To maybe give the common gambler an easy way to understand things on how and why we react like we do when we are losing.
It's okey with whining if we understand the game:)
 

Realitybitez

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I hate to admit this but I am incredibly superstitious :oops: I think most gamblers are, well it does have a lot to do with luck:p I recall when I first started gambling (land casinos) I was quite amazed at the people who used to talk to their machines, rub their machines - stare totally glassy eyed at their machines as though that was going to bring them a win..... then hello! a few months later, Im doing exactly the same thing:oops:

I used to get really religious when I was on my last few dollars. 'please lord' give me one more hit and I promise I'll be out of here. :lolup: My religious frenzy only lasted as long as I was in the pub:p

I haven't read the thread yet on the 'big win then you start loosing' but I kind of share that belief. It probably just is superstition but I have found, if I win anything substantial, I seem to loose constantly right after:(

Anyhooo solution to that, just bounce to another casino - come back to that other casino (you won off) another day when one's mindset isnt on ' Im probaby gonna loose now, that I won so big'. And probability is that session will just be a normal round of win and loose.

Works for me:thumbsup:
 

skiny

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Will a game go cold after I hit something? Yes.

Maybe not immediately after I hit something but whether I hit something or not the game will eventually go cold.

Going cold just means you're not winning anymore and I don't care where or what you're playing. If you're gambling eventually you're going to stop winning.

In fact I think most games are "cold" anywhere from 75% to 95% of the time. It doesn't matter if you're playing with slots, cards, a wheel or dice. Unless the game you're playing has a +100% RTP it's mathematically impossible for the game not to go "cold."

The trick to gambling is being there when it's not and getting out before it is.
 

Nifty29

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Will a game go cold after I hit something? Yes.

Maybe not immediately after I hit something but whether I hit something or not the game will eventually go cold.

Going cold just means you're not winning anymore and I don't care where or what you're playing. If you're gambling eventually you're going to stop winning.

In fact I think most games are "cold" anywhere from 75% to 95% of the time. It doesn't matter if you're playing with slots, cards, a wheel or dice. Unless the game you're playing has a +100% RTP it's mathematically impossible for the game not to go "cold."

The trick to gambling is being there when it's not and getting out before it is.

Well, if it was a very high variance slot, it could still go cold if it were 100%+ RTP.

Good points you raise. It really is all about being in right place at the right time. Knowing about RTP and variance and game choice etc can help you manage your bankroll, but in he final washup its luck that decides your fate at any particular moment.
 

BustedFlush

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I hate to admit this but I am incredibly superstitious :oops: I think most gamblers are, well it does have a lot to do with luck:p I recall when I first started gambling (land casinos) I was quite amazed at the people who used to talk to their machines, rub their machines - stare totally glassy eyed at their machines as though that was going to bring them a win..... then hello! a few months later, Im doing exactly the same thing:oops:

I used to get really religious when I was on my last few dollars. 'please lord' give me one more hit and I promise I'll be out of here. :lolup: My religious frenzy only lasted as long as I was in the pub:p

I haven't read the thread yet on the 'big win then you start loosing' but I kind of share that belief. It probably just is superstition but I have found, if I win anything substantial, I seem to loose constantly right after:(

Anyhooo solution to that, just bounce to another casino - come back to that other casino (you won off) another day when one's mindset isnt on ' Im probaby gonna loose now, that I won so big'. And probability is that session will just be a normal round of win and loose.

Works for me:thumbsup:

Yes, you are more likely to go flat after a big win. RE. the ladders I mentioned in the program layers. You just hit a good rung and had a big win, the way the wins are distributed mean you are unlikely to hit another one immediately, because on each layer of programming the variance comes into effect, and each ladder has a few large wins and many small wins to keep your stake going, on a high variance slot the small wins are fewer but the bigger wins more which means more reloading but biggers wins when the RNG selects the right ladder and rung. Remember the slots are designed mostly (they have to be to retain players) to keep a deposit live as long as possible. For example on TS2 you get many spins giving a fraction of a credit followed by one or two 5 reels wins to rebuild your balance, and at 30p or 60p a spin it's not unusual to play for a couple of hours.

The key to winning and w/d a profit is not hitting the big wins via the reels or free spins per se, but 'overlapping' when the RNG selects these amounts, i.e. you are rewarded with another large win while still playing the product of the previous one, and hopefully again and again so you end up playing for a good few hours and make a decent w/d of your profit. The way the ladders/layers work means you will experience both scenarios - overlapping for profit on one occasion, and attrition of your decent win without replacing it before redepositing, ie, losing.

Again, when you join a casino you get a new seed and RNG of your own, and the ladders/layers will apply to ALL slots you play on that casino - you can see this when the slot retains the same reel pattern from when you last played it. You cannot ever renew this seed, unless opening a duplicate account. You are stuck with it, and it WILL payout very near the advertised RTP/ %age the longer you play there. If you are on a layer without rungs and losing this will happen whichever game you choose, similar with winning.
 

Nifty29

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Yes, you are more likely to go flat after a big win. RE. the ladders I mentioned in the program layers. You just hit a good rung and had a big win, the way the wins are distributed mean you are unlikely to hit another one immediately, because on each layer of programming the variance comes into effect, and each ladder has a few large wins and many small wins to keep your stake going, on a high variance slot the small wins are fewer but the bigger wins more which means more reloading but biggers wins when the RNG selects the right ladder and rung. Remember the slots are designed mostly (they have to be to retain players) to keep a deposit live as long as possible. For example on TS2 you get many spins giving a fraction of a credit followed by one or two 5 reels wins to rebuild your balance, and at 30p or 60p a spin it's not unusual to play for a couple of hours.

The key to winning and w/d a profit is not hitting the big wins via the reels or free spins per se, but 'overlapping' when the RNG selects these amounts, i.e. you are rewarded with another large win while still playing the product of the previous one, and hopefully again and again so you end up playing for a good few hours and make a decent w/d of your profit. The way the ladders/layers work means you will experience both scenarios - overlapping for profit on one occasion, and attrition of your decent win without replacing it before redepositing, ie, losing.

Again, when you join a casino you get a new seed and RNG of your own, and the ladders/layers will apply to ALL slots you play on that casino - you can see this when the slot retains the same reel pattern from when you last played it. You cannot ever renew this seed, unless opening a duplicate account. You are stuck with it, and it WILL payout very near the advertised RTP/ %age the longer you play there. If you are on a layer without rungs and losing this will happen whichever game you choose, similar with winning.

Ummm....eh??

Sounds like that's made-up to me. I've never heard such things in 15 years.

Unless you have evidence of slots being programmed this way, then I'll just assume this is another "Oh I just have a feeling etc etc" theory.
 

Tirilej

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Ummm....eh??

Sounds like that's made-up to me. I've never heard such things in 15 years.

Unless you have evidence of slots being programmed this way, then I'll just assume this is another "Oh I just have a feeling etc etc" theory.

Thanks Nifty! I wasn't sure I was understanding correctly, but if what he says is true then it wouldn't be random would it?
 

BustedFlush

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You confuse 'random' with results picked by a RNG from a program. The two concepts are entirely different.

The results of spins on compterized slots are pre-programmed in many different ladders or layers. The only thing a RNG does when you press spin is select a digital reference to one particular rung/amount, and the only difference between you and say me when we both join a casino, download the software and for example play BDBA for 100000 of recycled stakes is the combination of wins we get on our way to the RTP of 97% which we'll both end up with.

The difference will be when you overlay your peaks and troughs, over mine for the 100000 stakes, the pattern will be different. If you are fortunate enough to get your peaks early in the events after joining the casino for example are at 500% or 2000% you w/d and quit the casino otherwise attrition in the gameplay will ensure you end up at 97%and down overall.

If in any doubt, ask members on here to paste (when they've joined a casino and turned over hundreds of thousands of pounds) their aggregate gaming report and see the figures. If you think online slots are truly random and not compensated or contained then you are in fantasy land. Show me one genuine report where (discounting outside pooled jackpots/awards) of a substantial turnover for several hundred thousand spins/pounds where you have a figure of say 110%.........
 

skiny

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Yes, you are more likely to go flat after a big win. RE. the ladders I mentioned in the program layers. You just hit a good rung and had a big win, the way the wins are distributed mean you are unlikely to hit another one immediately,

I'm going to assume these ladders and rungs are metaphorical but really instead of good and bad rungs I'd add some snakes so you can slide back down them. After that you pretty much lost me with the layers in the programming.

because on each layer of programming the variance comes into effect, and each ladder has a few large wins and many small wins to keep your stake going, on a high variance slot the small wins are fewer but the bigger wins more which means more reloading but biggers wins when the RNG selects the right ladder and rung. Remember the slots are designed mostly (they have to be to retain players) to keep a deposit live as long as possible.

Variance is going to come into effect in any group of random events and no slot game has a predetermined amount of small or big wins. They are also not designed to keep a deposit as long as possible.

For example on TS2 you get many spins giving a fraction of a credit followed by one or two 5 reels wins to rebuild your balance, and at 30p or 60p a spin it's not unusual to play for a couple of hours.

In any slot game (not just TS2) you get many small wins and if you're lucky a few medium or large ones. The large ones are not there to "rebuild your balance." The large ones are there because "shit happens."

The key to winning and w/d a profit is not hitting the big wins via the reels or free spins per se, but 'overlapping' when the RNG selects these amounts, i.e. you are rewarded with another large win while still playing the product of the previous one, and hopefully again and again so you end up playing for a good few hours and make a decent w/d of your profit.

The key to winning IS hitting the big wins. (I'm not sure how you can hit anything other than "via the reels.") The RNG doesn't select anything. If it did it wouldn't be a random number generator. It would be a selected number generator.

The way the ladders/layers work means you will experience both scenarios - overlapping for profit on one occasion, and attrition of your decent win without replacing it before redepositing, ie, losing.

So basically you're saying "When you play a slot game sometimes you win and sometimes you lose...." Gotcha.

Again, when you join a casino you get a new seed and RNG of your own,

I'd like to know who told you this. I've never heard of every player getting their very own personal seed.

and the ladders/layers will apply to ALL slots you play on that casino

And the snakes.

- you can see this when the slot retains the same reel pattern from when you last played it.

If the slots retain the same reel pattern your seed is broken.

You cannot ever renew this seed, unless opening a duplicate account. You are stuck with it, and it WILL payout very near the advertised RTP/ %age the longer you play there.

Actually if you play there long enough you'll most likely sometimes be way over the casino's advertised RTP and sometimes be way under it.... Because it's random.

If you are on a layer without rungs and losing this will happen whichever game you choose, similar with winning.

So if you're losing it doesn't matter what you do, you'll keep losing and if you're winning you have no choice but to keep winning? So I just keep joining new casinos until I'm finally given a winning seed and then just quit my job?
 

BustedFlush

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Ummm....eh??

Sounds like that's made-up to me. I've never heard such things in 15 years.

Unless you have evidence of slots being programmed this way, then I'll just assume this is another "Oh I just have a feeling etc etc" theory.

Assume what you like, but before you do, check your various playing reports, look us in the eyes and tell me you aren't down in your years of playing. Try and visualize three-dimensionally the layers. If you like think of the old ticker tape computers used, with the patterns of holes. Imagine many of them stretched out and laid on top of each other, and at one place you'll find a hole lines up for 10 consecutive layers, whereas someplace it's only the top layer, sometimes the first 3, or there is no hole in the top layer, but underneath there are 5 consecutive holes.

These holes are fixed but there are a finite amount which is your 97%. Your press randomly selects a position on these tapes, either hole or blank.

I am trying to explain it in a basic way for those not familiar with programs.

These holes will ensure against freakish events, like hitting a screenful of wilds on 3 consecutive spins or any other results or runs which will be detrimental to a casino operating the software. This is why, in all the trillions of spins done by members here none has come up and posted screenshots or reports of this happening, and never will. If truly random statistically something similar would have occurred, and been bragged about (quite understandably):lolup:
 

BustedFlush

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I'm going to assume these ladders and rungs are metaphorical but really instead of good and bad rungs I'd add some snakes so you can slide back down them. After that you pretty much lost me with the layers in the programming.

Metaphorical indeed, as I intimated. But please, the metaphorical snake has no place here; the ladders are laid flat and stacked, not upright. Poor viper can only slide through them....


Variance is going to come into effect in any group of random events and no slot game has a predetermined amount of small or big wins. They are also not designed to keep a deposit as long as possible.

This is where the complexity of the program comes in. Variance, true, appears in random events of all types. But please remember each ladder has a different permutation of amounts that make the target RTP %age. You don't stay on the same layer/ladder every time the RNG produces a result. This way some players win, some lose in each case substantially or slightly, and you get the appearance of randomness as sequences (although they can and do occur) are limited.


In any slot game (not just TS2) you get many small wins and if you're lucky a few medium or large ones. The large ones are not there to "rebuild your balance." The large ones are there because "shit happens."

I'll pass on how much deference programmers give to the philosophy 'shit happens' but indeed the large ones are there not to rebuild your balance or to make you a profit - that is merely an effect of when the large award occurs and which I was giving an example of.

The key to winning IS hitting the big wins. (I'm not sure how you can hit anything other than "via the reels.") The RNG doesn't select anything. If it did it wouldn't be a random number generator. It would be a selected number generator.

I've said that in another post. Each win/blank is specified in the program and labeled with a number which is randomly selected via RNG. You make a valid point and it actually picks from numbered outcomes i.e. 1 is no win, 2 is half a credit etc. The ladders have different series of numbers. Remember the term RNG is often misused and can mean 'random selector'. Reels are irrelevant: they are merely your visual representation of the outcome selected by the RNG . You can prove this (as I said in another post) for example on MG download casinos by clicking the account tab and checking your balance as soon as you press spin and BEFORE the reels start stopping, and it will show a plus/minus from where it was before you pressed, so you can see what you've won or lost before the reels stop.


So basically you're saying "When you play a slot game sometimes you win and sometimes you lose...." Gotcha.
On a less acidic note I was tring to explain the mechanics of why and how you win and lose.


I'd like to know who told you this. I've never heard of every player getting their very own personal seed.

By seed I refer to a portal into the casino software unique to you and a specific access to the RNG which will be yours alone.



And the snakes.

The snakes lay eggs which appear on your card statement as 0000's behind the first digits of you balance .....:)

If the slots retain the same reel pattern your seed is broken.

Eh? Go take a screenshot of your last reel display before closing then look again as you reopen the software and go back to the slot.


Actually if you play there long enough you'll most likely sometimes be way over the casino's advertised RTP and sometimes be way under it.... Because it's random.

No it's a managed compensated 'randomness' - the longer you play there the more positions you'd have covered on the layers and the more likely you are to be near or on the RTP setting.


So if you're losing it doesn't matter what you do, you'll keep losing and if you're winning you have no choice but to keep winning? So I just keep joining new casinos until I'm finally given a winning seed and then just quit my job? Let not your faceitousness blind you....

Good luck in finding a casino which pays you over time........
 

Tirilej

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"By seed I refer to a portal into the casino software unique to you and a specific access to the RNG which will be yours alone."

So you are saying that MG knows exactly where and when I am playing, and no matter how I try, I will probably end up with a payout of 97% over my life?

Well then I feel I shouldn't have started this thread at all since everything I believed has turned upside down, and what I wrote in my first post must be a lie.
 

Nifty29

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"By seed I refer to a portal into the casino software unique to you and a specific access to the RNG which will be yours alone."

So you are saying that MG knows exactly where and when I am playing, and no matter how I try, I will probably end up with a payout of 97% over my life?

Well then I feel I shouldn't have started this thread at all since everything I believed has turned upside down, and what I wrote in my first post must be a lie.

Honestly tirilej......you're just encouraging bustedflush.

What skiny is trying to say, albeit more politely, is that bustedflush should be nominated for the tinfoil hat monthly award. Skiny and I don't always agree, but this "conspiracy theory du jour" is just a whole lot of madeup fluff to explain how the big bad casinos go out of their way to rig games that are already rigged by their very nature.

BF (bustedflush) told me to "check my casino balance sheet" so that I could see that his central argument is correct. Well, when the main "evidence" he offers is "you will be in a losing position overall", how could one argue? Wow....the revelation that the casino might be AHEAD somehow is just too much to take in all at once....I'll need a few days to digest that one. I can tell you this much.....it is going to be HUGE news when word spreads that casinos might have some kind of edge on players.

I wonder how his theory fits with the fact I'm ahead at some casinos over a 2 year period? Maybe the RNG was playing up, or the wrong "seed" was planted at signup? (Maybe they meant to plant corn and not tomatoes....).

Random slots can and will drain every last dollar out of you with absolutely no interference or adjustment. The whole idea of special unique seeding and dedicated RNGs for each player is totally unnecessary and a complete waste of money for operators and providers. The whole idea is arrant nonsense.

I challenge BF to provide any and all evidence collected to support their theory (which is all it is thus far) so that it can analyzed and discussed. If its just something he dreamt up to explain his losses, I hope he just steps up and says so to save us all some time and himself some embarrassment.

BF....have you posted here under another alias before? You seem familiar somehow. I'll ask Bryan but I thought I'd ask in case you didn't mind saying if you did.
 

Tirilej

Still a Lady
CAG
MM
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Sweden
Sorry Nifty! I just forgot to add my special ironic guy to my last post:rolleyes:

Well, I would still encourage him to continue with or without that guy I suppose.

I have to add to this thread something else that I believe you guys are forgetting. We are so many reading this forum that not know English so well. It's going through hell trying to understand some of the posts. No googletranslation will help out either.
If I put it another way. Who are you/we trying to reach?
To explain all of the terms about RTP and RNG and everything else I understand that it's complicated to do with an easier form of the language, but please understand why some of us can't get a grip of what you are trying to say.
I'm not stupid, just Swedish..
...and blond :D
 

skiny

Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas
Joined
Oct 30, 2008
Location
Canada
By seed I refer to a portal into the casino software unique to you and a specific access to the RNG which will be yours alone.

A "seed" is not a portal into the casino software. Your internet connection is.



Assume what you like, but before you do, check your various playing reports, look us in the eyes and tell me you aren't down in your years of playing. Try and visualize three-dimensionally the layers. If you like think of the old ticker tape computers used, with the patterns of holes. Imagine many of them stretched out and laid on top of each other, and at one place you'll find a hole lines up for 10 consecutive layers, whereas someplace it's only the top layer, sometimes the first 3, or there is no hole in the top layer, but underneath there are 5 consecutive holes.

These holes are fixed but there are a finite amount which is your 97%. Your press randomly selects a position on these tapes, either hole or blank.

I am trying to explain it in a basic way for those not familiar with programs.

These holes will ensure against freakish events, like hitting a screenful of wilds on 3 consecutive spins or any other results or runs which will be detrimental to a casino operating the software. This is why, in all the trillions of spins done by members here none has come up and posted screenshots or reports of this happening, and never will. If truly random statistically something similar would have occurred, and been bragged about (quite understandably):lolup:

"Old" computers used punch cards up until about 30 years ago. I'm pretty sure MG has long since updated at least to 5 1/4 inch floppies.... Maybe even 3 1/2s.

punchcard.jpg
Live support - 32Red

The only way to get a truly set of random numbers is with radio active material and a Geiger counter. Radioactivity is random. Computers are not.

But random can be simulated in a variety of ways. I'm certain that MG has figured out at least one of these ways.

I think one of the most common ways is the use of the computer clock. For example seconds since a specific date or even milliseconds. The "seed" can be generated by the computer clock and used as a starting point in a list of pseudo-random numbers or it can be used as a multiplier.

For a RNG to actually generate random numbers it has to do certain things. It has to generate numbers that are unpredictable, they have to follow no discernible pattern and all possible numbers should eventually appear roughly the same amount of times over a long period of time. (quite often in the millions of iterations.)

For most slot games a combination of the numbers generated by the RNG and the actual layout of the reel strips (which are probably just graphical representations of an array of some sort) will give you the variance for each particular game. A RNG could be generating numbers between 1 and 1000 or 1 and 10,000 and very few of these numbers would be pertaining to a "wild" or "scatter" in the array.

You do not see 5 wilds two or three spins in a row but this is not because the program doesn't allow it. It's because the odds of it happening are in the billions to 1.

The odds of winning the OLG 6/49 lottery are 1 in 13,983,816. People don't win it two draws in a row but it's not because the lottery has programmed the game not to pick the same numbers twice. They don't win it two draws in a row because they'd have better odds trying to throw a pencil through a paper clip.... from 50 feet away...... blind folded.
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
It is the nature of the human beast to seek patterns where none exist, to find order in chaos.

I'm reasonably familiar with Random Number Generation and the pseudo-random number generation that most online games use.

True Random Number Generators can be atomic decomposition, although electronic noise is frequently used. Other natural phenomena such as wind rustling leaves will produce random numbers.

Pseudo-RNGs use a series of mathematical formulas to produce random results. A reference to RNG will mean a Pseudo-RNG from hereon. A "seed" or start point is used to generate a result. EVERY spin produces a new seed in order to generate a random result. A RNG is usually considered satisfactory if a trial of a very large simulation does not generate a "loop". RNGs with smaller test runs may be satisfactory for other purposes. The most common seed is time... it moves forward and does not repeat itself. It may be true (I have no knowledge) that an individual account may it's own start point for that clock. There will be another factor used as well by the casino most likely. It's been 10 to the power of 4000 nanoseconds plus 92 since you first joined the casino, as opposed to it's been 10 to the power of 4 trillion nanoseconds since the dawn of time. I didn't do the math on that one, I'm just trying to make a point.

The result is not truly generated when you hit the spin on your end, it's generated when the casino server receives the info that you pressed the spin button. Your ISP, your computer, internet traffic will all affect the exact seed that's used, so even if it was a poor RNG (say looping after 10,000 generated numbers), it would be pretty much impossible to control which nanosecond your spin would hit the casino server, and you don't have any knowledge of the formulas used in that particular RNG. That's pretty random.

After your randomized result is determined, the casino will send some pretty display to your computer screen. When people talk about hitting stats and seeing the amount of the win before the reels have stopped in MG casinos, it's because the little bitty text number in that stats screen was much quicker to arrive (although both packets were sent at the same time) and be processed than the complex eye-candy of the slot reels in motion.

This site has some basics for those interested further check out www.random.org

While they may describe PRNGs as unsuitable for gambling applications, remember what that company is selling. It is not practical in any way to use a TRNG to produce a result where 5 or more million possible results are needed.

While I don't know, I wouldn't be surprised to find that most of the 5 reel Video slots don't have just one turn at an RNG, but rather each reel is generated independently, with the length of the strip being the determinant. There are some interesting threads about this here too.

Land Based slot machines with physical reels are weighted, and I do know from insider knowledge that they use a clock to seed their PRNG. The online three-reelers are weighted also.
 
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