RTP is too low..

[trancemonkey]

Yeh but that's the trouble - it's all about attracting new players with bonuses which need to be paid for by the existing player who is no longer eligible for welcome bonuses . It's all backwards . Join a casino and you get welcome bonuses , you get rewards more quickly as well . Play on there for a while and you no longer get any bonuses and the rewards dry up lol and you're left with the shitty rtp that the casino needs to make enough money to cover the cost of all the welcome bonuses and affiliates
My broadband/phone package used to cost 19.99 now its 40 for some reason because the "deal" has run out and I cba to go through the hassle of changing it!
Shouldnt the price go down if you are loyal and a good customer ? Not the other way around

What I'm trying to say is the guy who wants to deposit some money and play slots without any gimmicks (bonuses , rewards , races blah blah which are usually fairly worthless) well they are the one getting the bad deal with rtp at 96% considering the speed of play online that eats your money too quickly without providing enough playtime/entertainment imo

I am actually shocked I'm reading a thread where someone is complaining about 96%. You don't know how lucky you are to get that....

 

[SlotGrinder]

So we should all donate our money to casinos and be happy we got the "playing experience" ? I don't know how you think 96% is so awesome when spins are like lightning , look at clash of spins where people are playing 1000s of spins in a couple of hours . Things have changed with providers like push and pragmatic offering superfast spins because their games are HV and its a lot of boring pointless basegame nothing spins to get through before you get the bonus . With a lot of games moving in that direction there is nothing stopping them raising the rtp since playerseasily get in twice the volume in the same time anyway

 

[slotmaster]

I am actually shocked I'm reading a thread where someone is complaining about 96%. You don't know how lucky you are to get that....

This!

I am in a like 85% market or suppose to be years ago, They don't say anymore here and I am not sure why people are not asking or demanding to know, I'm sure it's way less than they are supposed to be paying even more so by how awful it was my last 2 trips.

 

[zreb]

Are we lucky that 96% slots exist, or are casinos lucky that there are still uninformed players who will sit down at much lower return slot games without a reasonable chance of winning?

Well, if casinos want to base their business models around targeting uninformed players with a combination of flashy sounding bonuses and bad paying games, I guess they have the right to do that. And some players will continue to show up. Some will quit.

There are different viable business models. Some attempt to respect players, others hope for idiots that they can harvest money from as fast as possible. More seem to fall into the second category, but a few businesses or casinos will always try to find a niche in providing a quality service - and sometimes find great success (though other times the predatory businesses do quite well, unfortunately). I hope a few of those good businesses will find a model that allows for good paying games, though I can understand there are some difficulties when everyone from payment processors to slot developers and affiliates to governments want to take a percentage.

But the fact that some places are fleecing the shit out of their customers with 85% games doesn't mean we're lucky and entitled to have 96% games. Casinos didn't offer those games to be generous, it's a balancing act between generating profit and keeping players happy.

We could argue whether 96% is "good" or "bad" - personally I'd say its pretty average but why play average when you can play anything? But all I'm saying here is that, 1: it's ridiculous to call players lucky for having the privilege of giving casinos their money on a 96% slot, and that 2: the idea that there isn't much of a difference between a 96% payout slot and a 98% payout slot is completely crazy. Casinos themselves sure think there's a difference between the two, why wouldn't the players?

I'll play 96% slots sometimes myself if I like how they play, but like I said, on a personal level that's about the limit for me since I know how fast the slot is eating money when it gets much lower. The slots under 90% are basically a robbery if the player thinks they have a reasonable chance of winning instead of just exchanging money for some flashing lights - and there's no magical math model that can change that fact.

 

[trancemonkey]

So we should all donate our money to casinos and be happy we got the "playing experience" ? I don't know how you think 96% is so awesome when spins are like lightning , look at clash of spins where people are playing 1000s of spins in a couple of hours . Things have changed with providers like push and pragmatic offering superfast spins because their games are HV and its a lot of boring pointless basegame nothing spins to get through before you get the bonus . With a lot of games moving in that direction there is nothing stopping them raising the rtp since playerseasily get in twice the volume in the same time anyway

It's your choice whether you play fast or not - no one is forcing you. Most UKGC casinos require a 3 second game time.

It's fine to say "I want higher returns" but you clearly don't understand what running a casino entails. Certainly not a legit one...

If you don't like it at 96, then don't play any at that RTP. Simple choice really...

 

[trancemonkey]

So we should all donate our money to casinos and be happy we got the "playing experience" ? I don't know how you think 96% is so awesome when spins are like lightning , look at clash of spins where people are playing 1000s of spins in a couple of hours . Things have changed with providers like push and pragmatic offering superfast spins because their games are HV and its a lot of boring pointless basegame nothing spins to get through before you get the bonus . With a lot of games moving in that direction there is nothing stopping them raising the rtp since playerseasily get in twice the volume in the same time anyway

Also, why do you think there is a move towards HV? It's not because the casinos want it... it's because those games are successful. Which means the players (you guys) want it

 

[trancemonkey]

But all I'm saying here is that, 1: it's ridiculous to call players lucky for having the privilege of giving casinos their money on a 96% slot, and that 2: the idea that there isn't much of a difference between a 96% payout slot and a 98% payout slot is completely crazy. Casinos themselves sure think there's a difference between the two, why wouldn't the players?

I'll play 96% slots sometimes myself if I like how they play, but like I said, on a personal level that's about the limit for me since I know how fast the slot is eating money when it gets much lower. The slots under 90% are basically a robbery if the player thinks they have a reasonable chance of winning instead of just exchanging money for some flashing lights - and there's no magical math model that can change that fact.

You clearly have no idea how slot maths works or the industry works - other than a layman's idea of how you "feel it should work" - to say either of those things is ridiculous.

But that's fine... unless you understand it, your point of view is understandable. Wrong but understandable.

 

[lotusch]

Upping the RTP to 98% would make very little difference to how it feels. It certainly wouldn't help remove wins < half stake. Adding 2% just means that every 50 spins, you would have your stake to give away as a prize that you wouldn't have had at 96%.

96% is exceptionally high. A lot of markets (not online) are below 92%. Some below 90.
You should consider yourselves lucky to have 96. I don't think that will last though...

Think most b&m casinos have much lower RTP settings for their slots.
I defo can vouch for the difference in play when it comes to Novomatic / Greentube slots as I do play them often online and when I visit a local b&m casino I play them most of the times too.
The multi game Greentube cabinets here run at 88% - 91% I was told which makes sense as even in the old days the slots in The Netherlands used to run that kind of RTP % in b&m casinos.
Very hard to get retriggers on games like LLC and Book of Ra de Luxe for example.

Also some of the b&m casinos near here have 1 or 2 linked jackpots attached to their slots which most likely also take a chunk from the actual slots RTP.

I rather play the Novos online!

 

[zreb]

I don't believe that the only way the casino industry can function is by providing players with games that they don't have a reasonable chance of winning. If that's wrong, I'll remain wrong.

If you would tell me then, what are the chances of a player coming out ahead after 500 spins on your 86% slot you designed? How about after 2500 spins? I imagine you have numbers that could answer that question, and I doubt they are numbers that would look very good. That's not a hypothetical, I would be interested to see them.

That's not meant to be an attack on you or your design process, I know you're just doing the best you can with the parameters you're given. But I stand completely by the statement I said - it's literally impossible to make a maths model that turns a <90% RTP game into a good game.

It's also blatantly obvious without inside industry info that a 96% game and a 98% game have the potential to be very different.

There are certainly things you know about the industry that I do not, but I understand basic math and logic. You can argue with me that a 96% slot is barely viable in the industry and you may be right. You can't argue that it gives the same player experience as a 98% slot. That's simply false.

Add 2% RTP to starburst and even that game would probably have managed to avoid... most of the hate it receives on this forum.

 

[lotusch]

Add 2% RTP to starburst and even that game would probably have managed to avoid... most of the hate it receives on this forum.

You'd get 3 stars every 100 spins!
But agreed, one of the worst games ever made, played it a few times when I just started to play online and was thinking, if all online slots are like this I better quit right away.
That said I did manage to get a €600.00 hit on it from a €2.00 stake I think, not sure as it was a long time ago.
Hit the bars with wilds, a couple of lines.

 

[trancemonkey]

I don't believe that the only way the casino industry can function is by providing players with games that they don't have a reasonable chance of winning. If that's wrong, I'll remain wrong.

If you would tell me then, what are the chances of a player coming out ahead after 500 spins on your 86% slot you designed? How about after 2500 spins? I imagine you have numbers that could answer that question, and I doubt they are numbers that would look very good. That's not a hypothetical, I would be interested to see them.

That's not meant to be an attack on you or your design process, I know you're just doing the best you can with the parameters you're given. But I stand completely by the statement I said - it's literally impossible to make a maths model that turns a <90% RTP game into a good game.

It's also blatantly obvious without inside industry info that a 96% game and a 98% game have the potential to be very different.

There are certainly things you know about the industry that I do not, but I understand basic math and logic. You can argue with me that a 96% slot is barely viable in the industry and you may be right. You can't argue that it gives the same player experience as a 98% slot. That's simply false.

Add 2% RTP to starburst and even that game would probably have managed to avoid... most of the hate it receives on this forum.

It's not false.. Because players only experience games over a short lifecycle. Yes over a long period you might notice, but I would bet you 50 quid you couldn't tell the difference between a 93 or 89% slot over 500 games. Why? Because good designers design them that way....

 

[SlotGrinder]

98% rtp will mean it takes you double the amount of spins to lose the same amount of money . Doesn't matter if the player "feels it " Thats just the maths . Every regular player knows they will lose in the end and most lose as much as they can afford or their budget . So why does it matter to the casino if they get 10 hours playtime in a week instead of 5 . Obviously the variance is huge but ultimately that is what it comes down to

Anyway , if some slot designer makes a 98% rtp game which gets loads of volume played on it and everyone loves it then its going to earn more revenue than all the boring clone 96% rtp slots out there . Ofc rtp is not everything but it is a factor and whilst slot designers try to push the envelope regarding max potential and megaways etc noone seems to put much thought into increasing rtp beyond the std 96%

 

[zreb]

It's not false.. Because players only experience games over a short lifecycle. Yes over a long period you might notice, but I would bet you 50 quid you couldn't tell the difference between a 93 or 89% slot over 500 games. Why? Because good designers design them that way....

I might not be able to tell the difference between even a 95% slot and an 87% slot with a high degree of certainty over 500 games, but that doesn't mean I'm unaffected by it. I'm very likely to have a bad experience on the 87% game, I just won't know "why" - whether I got unlucky or the slot payout is terrible. I can suspect the slot is a money gobbler, but I couldn't know for sure - in fact I've had that exact experience a few times where I just don't know if it's bad luck or bad payouts. Several bad sessions - or even a big win followed by dead slots - and I'll start to wonder whether or not I'm throwing away my money, or underestimating the variance, or simply on a bad run.

That's why I think transparency (providing RTP) is very important for slots - because it's very difficult to judge these things from the results of a few spins, but in an ideal world players can make informed decisions. And to reiterate, even if you don't know the cause, it still affects your results, your length of play, and your experience.

Regarding the potential to win on a <90% slot, like I said, I know you have (or at some point had) those kind of numbers. If you wish to prove me wrong and to show that an 86% slot is winnable, you can provide them.

You do have knowledge that many here (including myself) do not have, and I appreciate your willingness to share it with the community. My intention is not to antagonize, but it feels somewhat insulting when you tell players they are "lucky" for the privilege of spending their money on a 96% slot game - as I said before, these casinos are not charities, and the "lucky" players are what make the industry run.

Well, that's enough arguing out of me today, what better way to start the new year than with some forum battles.

 

[trancemonkey]

I might not be able to tell the difference between even a 95% slot and an 87% slot with a high degree of certainty over 500 games, but that doesn't mean I'm unaffected by it. I'm very likely to have a bad experience on the 87% game, I just won't know "why" - whether I got unlucky or the slot payout is terrible. I can suspect the slot is a money gobbler, but I couldn't know for sure - in fact I've had that exact experience a few times where I just don't know if it's bad luck or bad payouts. Several bad sessions - or even a big win followed by dead slots - and I'll start to wonder whether or not I'm throwing away my money, or underestimating the variance, or simply on a bad run.

That's why I think transparency (providing RTP) is very important for slots - because it's very difficult to judge these things from the results of a few spins, but in an ideal world players can make informed decisions. And to reiterate, even if you don't know the cause, it still affects your results, your length of play, and your experience.

Regarding the potential to win on a <90% slot, like I said, I know you have (or at some point had) those kind of numbers. If you wish to prove me wrong and to show that an 86% slot is winnable, you can provide them.

You do have knowledge that many here (including myself) do not have, and I appreciate your willingness to share it with the community. My intention is not to antagonize, but it feels somewhat insulting when you tell players they are "lucky" for the privilege of spending their money on a 96% slot game - as I said before, these casinos are not charities, and the "lucky" players are what make the industry run.

Well, that's enough arguing out of me today, what better way to start the new year than with some forum battles.

I understand your points... And I agree that the higher the better... But honestly, RTPs will only come down with taxation and increased costs. Make the most of the high RTPs while you have them. They won't be around forever... And nearly all decent casinos want to run at the highest they can whilst still being profitable - its not an easy balance for decent casinos.

 

[trancemonkey]

I might not be able to tell the difference between even a 95% slot and an 87% slot with a high degree of certainty over 500 games, but that doesn't mean I'm unaffected by it. I'm very likely to have a bad experience on the 87% game, I just won't know "why" - whether I got unlucky or the slot payout is terrible. I can suspect the slot is a money gobbler, but I couldn't know for sure - in fact I've had that exact experience a few times where I just don't know if it's bad luck or bad payouts. Several bad sessions - or even a big win followed by dead slots - and I'll start to wonder whether or not I'm throwing away my money, or underestimating the variance, or simply on a bad run.

That's why I think transparency (providing RTP) is very important for slots - because it's very difficult to judge these things from the results of a few spins, but in an ideal world players can make informed decisions. And to reiterate, even if you don't know the cause, it still affects your results, your length of play, and your experience.

Regarding the potential to win on a <90% slot, like I said, I know you have (or at some point had) those kind of numbers. If you wish to prove me wrong and to show that an 86% slot is winnable, you can provide them.

You do have knowledge that many here (including myself) do not have, and I appreciate your willingness to share it with the community. My intention is not to antagonize, but it feels somewhat insulting when you tell players they are "lucky" for the privilege of spending their money on a 96% slot game - as I said before, these casinos are not charities, and the "lucky" players are what make the industry run.

Well, that's enough arguing out of me today, what better way to start the new year than with some forum battles.

With regards to win potential .. it's all down to the win profile.

 

[dunover]

Give me a 96% HV slot any day over a 98% slot with an egg-timer LV maths model. I want to have some kind of belief I can see some excitement and win something worth cashing out, as opposed to death by 1000 cuts which those near-98% games like 1429 Uncharted Seas are....

If you want a 98%+ RTP game go play blackjack.

Either way, you'll lose the house edge over time.

You wouldn't get much in the way of casino bonuses if the house edge was only 2%. Then you'll have double the turnover for the same deposit which means the developer fees would double for the casino too. 95-96.5% isn't a bad range for any slots player IMO.

The only way you'd notice quite quickly if a slot game had changed from 96 to 98% was if the mechanic and math model was based on very low variance and frequent very small wins. And players don't tend to gravitate to those kind of games, as we know.

 

[goatwack]

I've had plenty of escapades from Playtech over the years, albeit not so much now. Yet their games are notoriously low payout-wise.

In the short-term however (and this could be over many years given a slot's infinite cycle) even the 94/ 95%ers can knock out some belters.

I guess I find the variance of a slot more appealing, coupled with its entertainment factor, than simply pouring over spreadsheets, ultimately....

 

[robby811]

ups wrong window

 

[SlotGrinder]

To put some numbers on it

say your budget for the week is 100GBP which is a fair amount rly to be throwing at slots

If you do 50p bets on slots with 96% rtp then your avg playtime will be around 3 hr 20 mins , if you do 25 spins per minute . I did 100 spins on book of dead (fast spins ) and it took 3.5 mins so around 29 spins/min

If you do the 50p bets on slots with 98% rtp then your playtime for your weekly deposits rises to 6hr 40 mins on avg

This is for a generic slot model (I don't know exactly what slot this is based on) but high variance or low variance the avg playtime will be the same , just the actual playtime will vary a lot more with the higher variance slots

What player is honestly happy with paying 30GBP /hr to get their entertainment at 50p bets ? because thats what you're paying , at least on games with quick spins and lets face it noone likes a slow spinning game (jumanji )

NOTE : Obv there is a lot of downtime in a slot session - changing games , lag , deciding what slot to play next , stopping to screenshot that 10000x hit (yeh right) so this only applies if you are constantly spinning... still I think it is an excessive cost for a relatively low stake . Especially when you consider that most games you need to do hundreds of spins just for anything interesting to happen

 

[Gaz237]

So we should all donate our money to casinos and be happy we got the "playing experience" ? I don't know how you think 96% is so awesome when spins are like lightning , look at clash of spins where people are playing 1000s of spins in a couple of hours . Things have changed with providers like push and pragmatic offering superfast spins because their games are HV and its a lot of boring pointless basegame nothing spins to get through before you get the bonus . With a lot of games moving in that direction there is nothing stopping them raising the rtp since playerseasily get in twice the volume in the same time anyway

I think 96% is quite awesome.

The machine in the pub in our village is 74%.

Not really sure I understand your logic about donating money to Casinos?. They are providing a platform to gamble on. You don't have to gamble, it's a choice.

When i have a bet on the horses, I don't expect the horses to do an extra lap of the course, Just to make me feel like I got value for money.

Edit to add--- I agree with Dunover. I don't want to be bored shitless on a 98% machine, knowing a 400X will be the limit of a big win.

I'd rather have 3 hours of a decent chance of 2000X+. Than 6 hours of watching my balance drain away.

 

[SlotGrinder]

Why is a 98% rtp going to be more boring ? The variance / game play doesn't have to be any different except better payouts - that's the whole point
Yeh I know I don't have to gamble . I like playing slots . I just want better longterm payouts because atm I don't think I get enough playtime for my money unless I play the boring 98% games like you said , or blackjack which is not my cup of tea

 

[trancemonkey]

Why is a 98% rtp going to be more boring ? The variance / game play doesn't have to be any different except better payouts - that's the whole point
Yeh I know I don't have to gamble . I like playing slots . I just want better longterm payouts because atm I don't think I get enough playtime for my money unless I play the boring 98% games like you said , or blackjack which is not my cup of tea

You still seem to think there is a direct correlation between RTP and game play. This is simply not true - until you understand that it's what you do with the RTP that makes a good game, you won't understand why 96 to 98 makes very little difference.

Yes, on average your money will last twice as long, but that assumes identical maths models and an endless wallet... because if I make a game at 98% that pays 10% of my wins every 10,000 games (as a 1000x win) and someone else makes a game at 96% with an 800x win every 10,000 spins, but the rest of the game is identical, how do you think those two games play for the 9,999 spins (on average) until you get the huge win.

I'll tell you.. they will play EXACTLY the same. So you're win/loss rate will be identical for 9,999 games. And then in only one win you would see the difference. But you still wouldn't know it was a difference.

So this idea that you lose half as much per spin is true in statistically, but to the players it is entirely dependent on a lot of other things.

You just can't simplify it the way you are.

 

[SlotGrinder]

I don't think you understand basic maths . If I spin at a 96% slot for a year I will lose twice as much as if I spin on a 98% slot . Yes there is variance . I could lose every spin and have 0% rtp or I could win massive every spin and have 10000% rtp . But w/e happens my results if I did this a trillion times would vary around whatever the rtp figure is

 

[trancemonkey]

I don't think you understand basic maths . If I spin at a 96% slot for a year I will lose twice as much as if I spin on a 98% slot . Yes there is variance . I could lose every spin and have 0% rtp or I could win massive every spin and have 10000% rtp . But w/e happens my results if I did this a trillion times would vary around whatever the rtp figure is

And therefore i don't think you can read

As i said this, with an example of why [shown above] in theory it's true but in practice it is only true over a much longer period than most people will ever play. It is ENTIRELY dependent on how the RTP is distributed in the maths as to whether you (personally) will feel the extra (or lower) RTP.

 

[goatwack]

So there you have it, RTP is based on emotion and feelings

Ties in nicely with the current zeitgeist

 

[robby811]

So there you have it, RTP is based on emotion and feelings

Ties in nicely with the current zeitgeist

I always have hottie tottie emotions and feelings playing Playboy can you translate Zeitgeist to english please

 

[goatwack]

I always have hottie tottie emotions and feelings playing Playboy can you translate Zeitgeist to english please

It means 'nub'

 

[robby811]

It means 'nub'

ahahahha I cant stop laughing amazing answer you got 100points no 110points awesomenes

 

[trancemonkey]

So there you have it, RTP is based on emotion and feelings

Ties in nicely with the current zeitgeist

Whacky - you coming to the Meister Meet? Need your humour

 

[goatwack]

Whacky - you coming to the Meister Meet? Need your humour

Much like the previous two, I'll be using my partner as not only as a human shield, but interpreter

 

[Borgie]

Whacky - you coming to the Meister Meet? Need your humour

He will be the little goat dressed in women's clothes and flashing his false eyelashes. Bit Like the female gremlin

 

[dionysus]

He will be the little goat dressed in women's clothes and flashing his false eyelashes. Bit Like the female gremlin
View attachment 102093

that was very unkind of you


those happen to be his REAL gods'-blessed eyelashes
*flutterflutter

 

[robby811]

that was very unkind of you


those happen to be his REAL gods'-blessed eyelashes
*flutterflutter

I disagree!

He will be the little goat dressed in women's clothes and flashing his false eyelashes. Bit Like the female gremlin
View attachment 102093

Very kind of you looks better then his Football Manager Avatar xD

 

[goatwack]

What's wrong with it?

It's 100% accurate

 

[robby811]

What's wrong with it?

It's 100% accurate

View attachment 102098

I agree 100% accurate like the original

Invalid URL

 

[dionysus]

ps your balls hangin out


er, far right top corner of course

 

[Borgie]

What's wrong with it?

It's 100% accurate

View attachment 102098

You wish you were that attractive

 

[Bloatgoat]

Is'nt the online gambling slowly turning over from real gambling back in the days towards you-pay-for-entertainment-service-shit without a real chance on winning? I think i tossed a few thousands into this one particular casino. I kept breaking my head on my i cant win like i used to in landbased casino's. Trust me, RTP is not everything. I am no math expert, i just have a certain way of playing which either hits or does'nt hit.

In landbased, I'll deposit 400, and start playing on 4 euro a spin. This gives me 100 spins minimal to either hit a good bonus or at least play equal or extend my playtime towards a 120 to 150 spins if i'm lucky enough. Most of the time (7/10) i win and come ahead. It's just the way the thing works. At online, it's a complete different game. The guys from the casino told me to stick to a 2% of my bankroll a spin. So 2% out of 400 equals 8. When i'm playing at 4 euro a spin i'm looking at 1% of my total bankroll in this case. The chances of winning 'big' online is so ackward. I think it simply comes down to how much you 'wager' and not how lucky you can be on a random spin. There's no such thing as random to my perspective.

I think a landbased casino is more into the high standard deviation where the RTP could still be 85% or so. Everyone gets a reasonable fair chance at winning 'something' in that case. Online comes with Low standard deviation, where once played enough proberly twice my bankroll, is lucky enough to get the big peak.

I just hate to see a game constantly being compensated, so that after my session, all the numbers are correct, but i still lost. The amount of times i lose at a online casino is more often then compared to landbased. So who has the answer about the magical 96% RTP vs 85% RTP on a landbased where my chances on a landbased is far better? Hmm?

Maybe i'm too stupid to understand the way the online works. And what a good strategy in the first place is. I dont know better then having a decent bankroll in order to win. At online it seems that it just comes down to the lucky one who seems to wager a certain amount of money. It's always like this. Bet 1 euro on 100 euro deposit, you'll get the fair square around 30% of your remaining funds. Bet 60 cent on 100 euro, you get the same. I see no randomness, just a system that decides for me if i wagered enough or not to win.

Bonus? Lol. 35x wagering. So lets say if i get a bonus of 200 euro, it means that i have to wager that up to 35 to 50x, which equals to 7000 up to 10000 and if i'm lucky enough still keep something after that for my own. Bonusses are bullshit. For the dumb and clowns who just want to glare at a screen full of flashing things with no real value attached to it. How many times i got a bonus added to my account, and suddenly playing like the stars of heaven, untill you reach a point and boom. Everything gone, no matter what you do, which slot you play or so.

Is it rigged? Ofcourse not. Is it fair? On paper proberly yes. Can we actually win without being fisted ? I doubt it. The RTP is calculated over 150.000 spins on online and proberly less then 20.000 on landbased. I had so many dead spins over the last period of time, i dont believe in a bad streak. It's time consuming, money eating and VIP managers eager to trigger you to play some even more. I've never seen such a greedy business as the online casinos.

Why is it that on peak times the games seem to work a 'bit' better? And why not at any random given time? It was random right? Oh wait... random within parameters yes. Perfectly crafted algorithms to keep players playing some more, lose more then they could actually afford. It's their house, the song is named hotel california. You can check-in but you can never leave.

 

[VismundCygnus]

The reason you're seeing the above difference in deviation is because online has been craving huge wins, perhaps from seeing/wanting to produce youtube vids or perhaps because that's what we're looking for at home when we're not distracted by the casino environment.

In vegas, you can get sloshed by some bullshit slots with drip wins in the entire paytable but its ok because you came, you got a feature, and then you go back home and tell people about the atmosphere and crazy buildings or whatever.

 

[Fredos386]

For sure there is something going on with the online "randomness" which is so random that my btc wallet and money i tracked the whole 2018 been going in a perfect cycle back and forth dozens of time all year long. Lose lose then win big say 1000$. Have 1000$ then rip on everything you play no matter the slot and all 1000$ vanish... Then deposit a 100$ more.. another 100$ then boom the run of destiny, all slots hitting oh ya oh ya!!! Win 1000$ and have 1000$ in my wallet, then rip everything everywhere no matter what.. lose the 1000$.. get in an extra 100$.. 200$ run of destiny big win.. 1000$ wallet.. rinse repeat alll year long. Had a lil more up more down but overall it keep following a path all year like i was getting random things under parameters that would compensate me up when im down and rip me 10% RTP when im up to always keep me in a decent range for casinos where i constatly have to add up some money to keep going which is their profit. Leading me to believe random to them is not the random we are being sold. I don't mind casinos operating no matter their conditions as long as i am told before hand so i can decide clearly if i want to spend money under these conditions or not. If i am told deposit x and have 1 chance on 2 to win jackpot.. but then after losing realize it's 1 on 25 that won and then be told "but winning so much would make no sense!! casinos need to make profit!" no. It's fraud to lie to players like they do, if slots are not random but just following an algorithm that keep our expected return "controled" then tell us. Then you will lose some players that want random chances but you will gain players that like to know if they lose too much they'll get compensated at some point by big wins they "shouldn't" have hit and they be happy. Just tell me what is in the box you are selling and i will decide if i want to buy the box or not. Could even play 70% RTP and shut up about it if i was told before hand that the RTP is/was 70%. I don't mind a big issue if i am being told the truth vs i can get crazy over being lied on a tiny detail, because a lie is a lie and says a lot about the person/business/industry.

So yeah i did millions of spins, i had some huge wins that always came after a huge streak of rips always under the same model more or less. I had my fair share of wins and won some good money on special promotions with infinite reloads etc so i am not in the red and consider myself very lucky. But still i don't like how it's everything but random, they always appear to be balancing you up/down all the time. You lose lose lose then at some point you will hit jackpots one after another in a single session/day or you will win massive then just rip forever till you have it all given back to casinos. The way it goes is not random, just look at slots like endorphina's or playngo, when they suddenly have a huge win to give you, the spins are all paying or almost, you hit features one after another, the game is throwing all it got at you to keep you spinning long enough to hit the monster then boom, all dead spins.. 100, 1000,10000 dead spins sky is the limit with the not random slots online. So yeah, it's good in a way that players all get to hit something at some point because of that system, but it also remove the dream, what the casino is selling... the dream to beat the house, the dream to win win win and raise bet and win even more!!! Nope, will not happen. Too many coincidences everyday all year long to be just coincidences. Just like this week, after losing a lot i was mean't to be "compensated" so i played then got insane streaks and won won won, then raised bet to 5$ spins let's go.. again, like all other attempt the entire year i got just dead spins to 0. I couldn't win that much, the algorythm didn't allow me to, it was too much vs my profile. So what happened? Like it happened on every single high roller attempt where i got rekt, then i play elsewhere on lower bets and hit everything.. crazy 650x, 700x+ lessago and cashed out what i expected to win from the other 5$ bet yolo attempt. Just luck? You might think, but after having this kind of coincidence going 30-40 times in a row i doubt big time it's anything random or coincidence.. to me the system just had to give me back a certain amount so it did no matter what. Now that i got it, i can rip 10% RTP everywhere again till next time system decides im due for another injection of funds lol. Mankind didn't find a way to recreate randomness anyway, we just have algorythms that create illusion of randomness... so yeah seeing pattern and in the long term being able to analyze and find real trends in slots is possible because the more you play the bigger your sample is and you can slowly see the patterns and trends of the algorythm you are playing. Are slots giving back the RTP, sure. Are you winning as you should, yes... is it random? no. The providers/casinos just decide when you will win or not, and if you overbet they will yes hammer your RTP to make sure you don't win an amount too big that you would most likely use somewhere else and not put back in the casino.

Honestly, i don't mind them doing that, if i would know before hand. When they sell players that all is random, each spin is independant bs that is so easily to prove wrong by anyone at any time it makes me go mad thinking of all the players that may have lost their house, family, lives over chasing a rigged 10% RTP to the end without ever wining. I'm not saying the person doing that is a genius, but if you create a situation like that as a casino because you told the player it was random and he believed you, then it's pure fraud. Say i play 20p a spin for years, then decide yay let's bet 10$ a spin... if system was random you could win but you will not, 99.9% of the time, because the system will detect you are way over your head and will not give you normal results for as long as you didn't lose a certain amount on that bet, the casinos cover their ass like that. So if my net worth is 5k$ and i know somehow i'd have to rip 10k on that bet before i get a chance then i would just not go, but if casino tell me it's all legit independant spins then he might get caught and go all in.

Casinos and providers staff i don't care your hate replies, the reason why it triggers you so much is that because i'm most likely right and if proved right you would all go down in flames so you gonna do all you can to make me look like a fool, but i don't go with "feelings", all the trends and patterns i tested doing thousands of spins on different providers and casinos all year long and previously too every single day getting my samples in the 100k-1M+ spins where it's more about statistics and "feelings". Just tell us what is the truth, is the RTP really what you give us, why most people i know have lower RTP records on all slots than what is advertised. How can casinos ship free spins and reloads and big deposits bonuses left and right all year long with the 95-96% RTP they pretend their slots have but have another casino offer supposedly same slots and RTP but can't afford to give any kind of bonus? I'm just thinking casinos pretend whatever they wish to and the whole gaming comissions and everything is just a huge front. In the end casinos pay for the review sites, the affiliates, the comissions, they pay everyone... so who decides.. casinos. I don't think i'll ever know how it all truly works, no one will... And all casino staff and providers have signed some kind of contracts with terms that allow them to say certain things and others not so we will never really have any kind of truth from their, they are just following their contract and working for the casinos in exchange of money so don't expect anyone here to jump on you with love for putting their income at risk. But i just think players should know these things so that they can decide of what amount of money they really want to spend on it knowing how it really works. One would like to spend 20$ knowing it's all risk and most likely lost while others could just spend more knowing they will eventually hit since it's all controled and compensated etc.

Last thing, tell me how a slot can give you 10% RTP over 100,000 spins then give you 1000% RTP over next 1000 spins giving bonuses every 10-15 spins and money flying left and right. I mean randomly it could happen once every century to one person on earth... but to the same player on repeat in a cycle.. every 1-2 weeks.. and most players i know get them too.. how can we all get these random "rarities" so frequently. is beyond winning mega millions everyday of the week. Thanks

 

[dave1888]

You need to go for a poo.

Never had a witnessed WL myself, But came back to a £200 balance, after reading the paper on the toilet@9p a spin.

Same my first ever 5 scatters on DOA came while I was on the pan. Left balance autoplaying with around 10ish quid came back to over £225 Good day that was then I went on Fruit Case and won another 100 at 20p. Cashed out nearly 400 that day

 

[Reelsoffun]

. The RTP is calculated over 150.000 spins on online

Way off try 4 billion spins on some games.

 

[Bloatgoat]

In Germany, laws where introduced to the many spielhalle and one of them was the actual money that could be depositted vs withdrawl on the slot(s). They simply bypassed this by using a creative credit system instead of real funds. So you dump in 10 euro, the thing converts this into 10000 credits (equals 1ct x 10000) and the system simply notes you have 10.000 credits. Not 10 euro. For withdrawl, the system converts this back into the real money thing and there's a timespan involved on how long it takes to dump out money, as a max of 500 euro. This got me thinking about online casino's. Everybody is advertising and looking blind on the holy grail of 96% ~ RTP. You have players on who you have all their betting data, strategy formed in a huge backlog. They could see your deposits vs avg withdrawls, they could 'test' your breaking point, they could do anything against you without you even knowing, and still give you the 90% RTP over the long run vs all your deposits.

A friend of me is a genius for depositting 25 euro by using paysafe, and plays all the way up to 5000 euro in simply an hour or 2 or so. But he always seems to lose so hard after peaking at 5 grand, never withdrawled. The guy could be rich by this moment. But how many people do you know who deposit 25 and play their way using blackjack, slots and whatever up to 5 grand? I think it's pretty much account bound. When i had my 11k hit on a 100 freegames / 20 euro a bet, it took a while for me to get there. Once i started to verify the deposits vs actual withdrawls or wins in this case, the numbers where not so off.

We all know marketing is the key to a succesfull casino. So yes branding is done as much as possible at the highest audience on the internet. Youtube, blogs, so called review sites about casino's dumping their affiliate links everywhere. I've signed myself up to becoming a affiliate as well. I always wondered why there was a up to 60% conversion on every played that depositted. They explained to me that if someone deposits 100 euro, and loses this all, 60% of that would be for me. How in the world can a casino allow someone play 100 euro and do me a favor as well with 60% ? Well, because the algorithm is well crafted to make players lose anyway. See for yourself, become a casino affiliate and boom look at the (lifetime) numbers you get from every signed up affilate vs deposits.

It's so easy for a casino to hide behind the gaming provider. Oh yes it's 100% genuine, real and the RTP does not lie! We have the highest RTP this and that, but there's always some sort of wagering mechanism going on. You cannot exceed that what has bin set for you. It's always the initial signups that make players win big or easy in this case. What is a 1000 euro jackpot to some new player for a casino? A potential investment. Trust me. Because the thrill and excitement of winning a 1000 so easy makes the player come and crave back. And that's where these start to make money off you. A respectable casino, woud'nt be doing this in the first place:

- Stall payments
- Able to cancel withdrawl
- Make the verification proces too complicated
- Crazy, wagering & bonus rules, almost impossible
- Account termination because reason XYZ
- Licences in states that nobody heard of

The guy here on the forums, Book of Dead - 5000x - 100k€ Win , won a 100k on 20 euro bet a spin. Account gets terminated, funds obfuscated. Lol. Owned. I am fucking affraid for winning too big as the casino might bend you over too and screw you over. If this would have happen in a landbased, they would have come fair. You dont see these things to a landbased. Bonus money? Lol.

I've lost some real money over the last days, to figure out, i am playing against a mechanism which i cannot beat. So how genuine, real and lucky was that? Bad streaks? Come'on. It was a bad streak imposed on the whole of my account. I am appearantly a danger towards the casino because i might cost 'm too much money.

Oh and screw VIP managers as well. Their only interested is to keep you going. Off of every deposit there's a percentage, so now you have a answer on why they try to be your best friend. When i moved from Holland to Portugal, any of the interest of the VIP manager was gone instant, since the casino did'nt have a license for that specific country in the first place. That's what it comes down too.

All the mailings? Did anyone of you noted how crazy some where emailing in and around christmass days? Or the periods when they could guess people have their avg salary dropped into their banks? Watch those marketing with a close eye. They are horrible people with a interest only about your money, nothing more, nothing less.

And this is what i am saying; back in the days slots where actually a fun challenge, anything could happen. Here you are restrained, kept into borders, an algorithm watching out on every bet you place. Slots has changed from real gambling to a form of entertainment, blinking lights and no real value to what you are doing.

 

[colinsunderland]

All the mailings? Did anyone of you noted how crazy some where emailing in and around christmass days? Or the periods when they could guess people have their avg salary dropped into their banks? Watch those marketing with a close eye. They are horrible people with a interest only about your money, nothing more, nothing less.

To be fair thats basic marketing 101
I can predict to the day when I will get at least one email from the likes of Debenhams, John Lewis, M&S, Ebay, Fragrance Direct, Argos etc, and they fall on days when I suddenly get 100% offers from certain casinos that I haven't heard from in a month.

No point pushing emails to customers to deposit 2 days before payday and the bank balance is £0.17

 

[Bloatgoat]

Oh come'on. What a wonderfull timing. How many people where supposed to spend money on christmass and newyear instead of gambling this online?

 

[Bloatgoat]

Games are no longer independent, but being controlled by a main server. The same model you see on landbased casino floors. Blocks of 8 to 16 machines where one central thing decides who gets and who does'nt. Sort of random but not the random people would expect. Where on a landbased casino players could be tracked by their cards, it's still possible to be anonymous behind a slot. In online it's a different question. Every click, bet, win, loss, deposit, break, time in between deposit & withdrawl is being saved. Have a perfectly crafted algorithm that pushes players into betting more and more and you'll have the perfect cashcow coming from the majority of (regular, vaste) players. Keep 'm busy with long and extreme sessions, compensate 'm once in a while for not losing faith into playing anymore. That's all a casino wants, keep players playing.

It's the perfect business model, right? Steady revenue coming in year in year out... I agree with @Fredos386 fully. I have not seen randomness at all. As i wrote a week or so before how it was possible to drop down from 2500 euro in bets in between 1 and 10 euro all the way back to zero on ANY given slot. All games, slots and all where random right? So how big of a chance was this that all slots suddenly became cold at peak hours.

I am at the point to simply stop feeding online casino's, as it is impossible to actually beat the house. There's too many disadvantages and the house-edge is too large here for a big player like me. I dont mind dropping in a 1000 but i expect at some point that the odds will be in my favor, and not be a time-wasting battle where the outcome was already decided when i depositted that cash.

 

[nikantw]

To make things less complicated, if you deposit 20 and play until bust, your session will last twice as long if it has 98% RTP (instead of 96%).
That is a simple and indisputable fact.

Most of the arguments here have to do with the difference and relation between that and the TRTP slots are designed with.
You can read all about it here: Slots: What you should know before you play

Yes there is hidden RTP in big rare wins or features, yes the maths and RNG can have many of your sessions at 30% - 50%.
But we can do 10,000 spins in a weekend. And the RTP of our sessions is the most important thing.

96% can give 5000 spins 10p each over a 20 deposit. That is ok. More than ok.

The RTP of our sessions is the most important thing because just a 2% drop can cause 50% drop of playtime.
My opinion is that if we don't get enough playtime for our deposit we are in great danger to chase losses and get addicted.

My biggest disagreement with most legislations is the tax on RTP. That is what any tax on GGR does, feeds on the RTP directly.
Most casinos have net income < 25% of GGR, yet are asked for a tax of 35% or 40% of GGR. Not to mention all other fees or even player tax on every winning session!

That is why the RTP will only get lower and people more addicted

 

[Bloatgoat]

But i'm just expecting to win once in a while when gambling. I dont know all the maths and stuff behind all that. I know it comes down to having a big enough bankroll in order to be succesfull and actually come ahead. Here's the problem with online slots in my opinion: even tho a higher RTP does'nt get me that much ahead at all, when playing in a landbased. Landbased i can get 7 out 10 times ahead. Online? Lol i think it's only 2 out of 10 times.

So why is this? Not enough volume? Not enough played on the slot? Is there something different going on? Is the game provider or casino doing something that are not aware of? Or is the RTP just another illusion where people stare blindly on as the holy grail?

 

[goatwack]

I'm not best placed to comment on current rigged theories unfortunately, due to having had a corking early new year on ye olde slots

*subject to change

 

[Reelsoffun]

But i'm just expecting to win once in a while when gambling. I dont know all the maths and stuff behind all that. I know it comes down to having a big enough bankroll in order to be succesfull and actually come ahead. Here's the problem with online slots in my opinion: even tho a higher RTP does'nt get me that much ahead at all, when playing in a landbased. Landbased i can get 7 out 10 times ahead. Online? Lol i think it's only 2 out of 10 times.

So why is this? Not enough volume? Not enough played on the slot? Is there something different going on? Is the game provider or casino doing something that are not aware of? Or is the RTP just another illusion where people stare blindly on as the holy grail?

The fact that land based RTP is usually way lower your doing great being up so much via land based, my local LB casino runs at 90-92% on a lot of games

One word - Profiles

Getting bored of saying it now same as Trance probably is, but its the math profile that's the more important factor, until BTG came along so many slots were heading to lower variance. Your obviously playing more of the correct variance slots that suit your playing in LB than on online maybe. There is countless reasons for the differance.

Also when a provider offers different RTPs for a slot, its not always just a different RTP at play it can often be also a change in Volatility, likewise a game on the exact same RTP can be on a different volatility something often overlooked by the player and explains when you can play on two different sites, same game, same RTP but play totally different, its not all RTP and luck.