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RTG current release vs. Legacy? Ugly play log is in, need analyst!

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by takethemoney, May 6, 2009.

    May 6, 2009
  1. takethemoney

    takethemoney Banned User - Chargebacks at Slotastic

    Location:
    Washington
    The play on these, even at the accredited casinos is highly suspect lately. I'm very close to saying that these are unplayable, no matter what the bonus. I have had over $15,000 in play the past week at 4 accedited casinos and one non accredited casino. The general observation is going several hundred rounds on some games, never triggering a feature or bonus round if you will. Those that did yielded very small rewards, sometimes not even equal to the initial bet and most not more than 10x the intitial bet. On 3 separate 400% deposit bonuses, I have not been able to get within $15,000 of playthru without exhausting the bankroll.
    All play has been on real series slots. Bet ranges have been as high as $5, but most have been between $1 and $.40

    Last night on Crystal waters, I went some 800 spins with no bonus round. I played with no bonus and played thru quite a bit of money in under 3 hours. I'm not a mathematician, nor a scientist, so all I have to go on is my own meandering perceptions, but I've been doing this long enough that I know when it feels right and when it doesn't. I'm not one to often complain, but I sent an email to one of the casinos, requesting game logs, also explaining this anomaly in play. I was told it would be looked into by the technical dept, but still did not get the logs I specifically asked for. Another email was sent, asking why, since I made it clear that I wanted my logs, I did not have them?
    I'm still waiting for them and a response, but I'll give that adequate time. Something just is not right with this latest release. I'd like to have some collaberation in getting to the bottom of this, so I urge anyone with similar experience to post, so we can see if this is a trend.

    Today, I began playing some casinos that still have the legacy version of the RTG software. Now we go back to bonuses triggering about once every 50 spins or so, on average....not hundreds. Much easier play and hits with more frequency, compared to this new software with the turbo mode, where you can play with your space bar instead of your mouse.

    Is anyone else having this issue? Maybe you thought you were just losing your mind. Maybe you aren't used to complaining, but know this doesn't feel right.
    IF this software has a gaff, it needs to be brought to light. Silence will help noone and will only serve to enable the same performance, or worse. Please be vocal in this thread. Some of you guys who are good with accounting and numbers, please look into this.

    It's not in my head, I know others are seeing this too.

    If my findings turn out to be correct, I would stop all play on this software, since you have almost a 100% sure thing, when it comes to your bankroll. RTG can either correct this or not, but I'd not play there until they do.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2009
  2. May 6, 2009
  3. coxwel

    coxwel Senior Member PABnononaccred MM

    Occupation:
    student
    Location:
    germany
    i underdstand what you mean, but i think this happens. while loosing over a long run i also start thinkin if everything is fine, but playin slots it could happen.

    the new software runs quite better for me. i started at the new lucky red and pushed may starting balance from 150 to 700 in not long time by spinning on video slots at 1$ a spin.

    i got a feature retriggered twice during the bonus round, 4 scatters etc..

    so i can just say it pays pretty well.. allthough yesterday night i put in 150$ in the slots with just one lousy bonus round at warlocks spell.

    will try my luck today again. :rolleyes:

    but i still have alot of playthrough though...

    maybe i should try gocasino they reduced their wr to 10*... but dont know if theyre reputable or not..

    cheers coxwel
     
  4. May 6, 2009
  5. takethemoney

    takethemoney Banned User - Chargebacks at Slotastic

    Location:
    Washington
    Thanks for your reply, coxwell. Now don't get me wrong...I gamble and in that I know there is an inherent risk. But play and entertainment = value. Little play and fast loss does not. One should be able to get thru play thru and have a fraction of their bankroll....still a good day for the casino, but it seems like greed has taken over lately. Not making half a playthrough and zeroing out seems pretty fucking greedy to me, on the casino's part, but it's been happening all too often lately.

    Now one other question, does the RNG (random number generator) reside in the software, or on our own computer processor? In other words, is the casino letting our own computers generate the numbers, or is this all in the software? I have a dozen RTG casinos installed on my computer.
     
  6. May 6, 2009
  7. coxwel

    coxwel Senior Member PABnononaccred MM

    Occupation:
    student
    Location:
    germany
    i understand. the playteime you get is sometimes really bad . i recognized this at the rushmore casinos. i tried all their sign ups but often just reached 1/4 of the wagering, allthough not betting too high.

    i think at most rtgs the playthrough of 20-25 is really the max. the chance of bustin out before is way too high imho.
    imho these bonuses with a high wr should be all cashable in the end, would be fair.

    to yor question with randomness, iam not quite sure if the calculation is done on your computer but i think its in the software and every rtg software has its own. but what would be interesting to me would be in which way an operator can set this randomness or change something. i dont mean they manipulate but i cant also imagine that a casino cannot set it a little to pay more/less. they always claim they couldnt but i cant believe..

    what i also recognized in the software are some bugs like in some slots the scatters come with no sound, sometimes the slot soins longer, graphic becomes some kind of washed. i dont know i this is bacause of my connection but i dont like to put money in a slot and the sounds sometimes come sometimes not. makes one concerned about the payout ;-)

    cheers coxwel
     
  8. May 6, 2009
  9. takethemoney

    takethemoney Banned User - Chargebacks at Slotastic

    Location:
    Washington
    I got my logs from Cherry Red. Anyone good at analyzing? It was over 1100 spins with no feature triggered. I'll send the log to someone, preferrably an expert that can tell me anything about them. Fact is, I feel like I got ripped off. Why did I continue? Once I knew it was gonna be bad, I wanted to find out how far it would go, how bad it would be. That's why. I wanted to prove a point.

    Have wondered why Rushmore's jackpots get so high....hmmm.

    Now, I got lucky there, no denying that. I hit a random for $4k, luckilly, but any play before or after just sucks. I've spent way more than that.

    And the TST systems bullshit they are all boasting these days....how can I contact them?
     
  10. May 6, 2009
  11. liquuid_fusion

    liquuid_fusion Meister Member PABnorogue PABnononaccred2 PABaccred

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    UK
    Slots are very high variance by nature.

    It's impossible to say without knowing the reels on the particular slots you played, but by way of comparison the chance of hitting a feature on many MG slots is about 1 in 130 so the chance of going 1100 spins without it is (129/130)^1100 = 0.00020 or 1 in 4890.

    Maybe the chance of hitting a feature on most RTG slots is smaller. If it's 1 in 250 then the chance of going 1100 spins without is reduced to 1 in 82, unlucky but not unlikely.

    There's not much point analysing your slots data unless you know the slot reels, and can extrapolate the percentage return, probability of feature hitting and variance from them.
     
  12. May 6, 2009
  13. spike38

    spike38 Experienced Member MM

    Occupation:
    x
    Location:
    U.S.A.
    RTG

    All I can tell you is that I have lost 40 + deposits in a row ,everyone with a massive bonus with absolutely zero game play or entertainment for my money.
    Something is not right with these slots . We're talking thousands upon thousands of plays so it's not just a bad run. It's continual.
    I went from depositing daily at RTG's, to a couple times a week, to closing accounts and playing maybe twice a month for a joke.
    If I made it half way through the wager requirements once out of all these sessions I'll eat my hat. RTG = RARELY TRUE GAMBLING
     
  14. May 6, 2009
  15. Gogo

    Gogo Dormant account

    Occupation:
    accountant
    Location:
    Croatia
    As I know, RNG is generated on casino server and sofware is only grafic user interface.
     
  16. May 6, 2009
  17. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    The RNG exists as a seperate entity to the software, you can find a recent thread explaining exactly what an RNG is right here in meister land using the search facility

    TST only test the RNG as far as I am aware and that is only One aspect of a gaming system.
    You can, for example, have a legitimate RNG but still have a rigged game.

    You can actually request your return percentage as well as your play logs if you do not wish to do it manually.
    Ask for Total wager/return over the period of concern.

    RTG slots are actually mainly low variance not high.
    The feature trigger average obviously varies from game to game but it is close to MG's perhaps a little lower.

    Generally you will get many more sessions below the average return than above it.
    This is because losing sessions are usually (should be) within a range say 6% to 30%
    This seems counter intuitive because payout maybe quoted as 95% giving an average loss of 5% but that 95% is also made up from much higher wins.
    (50c bet hits X500 on $50 deposit= $300 =600%)
    But losing sessions because of the low variance will usually return around 70%-94% (6% to 30% loss) they can not return -% or multiple losses of your deposit.

    OK that is my neutral head talking and now with what I know to be true;

    If you are continually getting well below the theoretical return (below 75% starts to get iffy on longer sessions) and getting frustrated then it may be better to close your account and try another group or different software.

    If this is accompanied by frequent droughts between feature triggers then it would be better to move on.

    If on top of this infrequent features are paying poorly, run away and don't, I said don't look back :eek:
     
  18. May 6, 2009
  19. skiny

    skiny Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas

    Occupation:
    Doing everyone else's job.
    Location:
    Canada
    You'll have to find different software, not just a different casino. I've tried most of the accredited RTG casinos and the pattern is always the same. They say there's no pattern and that it's all random but the reality is when every single deposit starts with a couple of minor wins to jack the pay out percentage up and then follows with a long string of loses until you're broke - that's a pattern. The exact numbers are irrelevant. I made a deposit last weekend and did quite well for a couple of days. I was up and I was down and back up and then comes the realization that you're not going back up. And there's nothing you can do about it unless you have enough left to make it worth withdrawing. I don't. And I'm subborn. So I drop the wager. I log out and back in. I leave for hours and come back. I leave overnight and come back. I go to work and come back. No matter what I do I spin hundreds of times before hitting a feature and then the feature pays nothing. I've seen 10 spins at Funky Monkey without a single multiplier paying 74 cents. I've seen the last 4 or 5 features at Enchanted Garden not hit a single extra free spin. The last 4 or 5 features in Big Shot gave the random minimum amount of free spins (5) and then hit nothing the last 3 spins when the multiplier would have made a hit worth while. All features are behaving this way and I'm quite certain that they will until this deposit is lost. Once the software has decided you're done, you're done.

    The fact that the RNG is generating random numbers is not the issue. The RNG is tested. What is important is if the odds on these games are constant and they are not. I tried for weeks to get Club World to tell me who was testing the slot games software and all I got was one vague answer after another that had nothing to do with my question.

    I asked who was testing the slot game software and what exactly it's doing with the numbers after they're generated and I got told that TST was testing the RNG.
    I asked again who was testing the slot game software, not the RNG and I got sent a document apparently from TST that said they tested the RNG and how it relates to the card games.
    I asked again who was testing the slot game software, not the RNG and not the card game software and I got some kind of vague answer that seemed to say they were.
    I asked for verification if they meant they were testing the software themselves and they sent me a polite letter that said I'm obviously not happy with their casino and closed my account.

    Not that I care. There are plenty of online casinos to play at and theirs is no different than any other. You deposit, wait for the payout percentage to be met and then you lose.

    I play mostly for fun without really expecting to win much but in the last year the terrible odds and the steady losing pattern has sucked all the fun out of using RTG slots.

    Personally I see no point in even discussing pay out percentages because all a 97% pay out percentage tells you is that you lost more than you won.

    I could deposit 20 dollars, wager 20 cents and win back 19 every spin and when the money is gone the casino will tell me I did great because I was running a 98% payout percentage when in fact my entire deposit and all my spins never once won a single penny. Doesn't sound so great to me.

    My question was never how many times did I get to rewager the same 20 cents over and over. My question was and still is how come I can spin for days and rarely see a feature and when it does finally show up it pays almost zero no matter what game I play or how many times I leave and come back? Bad luck that never goes away? I don't believe in bad luck. I believe in bad odds. I believe the software decides when your deposit is no longer yours and then it just chips away at it while maintaining a payout percentage that they use to come back later and tell you how great you did.
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. May 7, 2009
  21. skiny

    skiny Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas

    Occupation:
    Doing everyone else's job.
    Location:
    Canada
    Just under 400 spins and 50 dollars later I finally hit a feature. 10 free spins with a 3x multiplier. Total win $3.80
     
  22. May 7, 2009
  23. lauram

    lauram Dormant account

    Occupation:
    self employed
    Location:
    toronto
    I know on the weekend rtg had another upgrade. Now i did have a cashout with one of the rtg. But that was saturday and the slots had been real loose playing.
    Upgrade sat nite that was it downhill from there. 4 more deposits since not one spin that paid me back the amount of the spin. No fun no bonus just blah
    maybe its time we give it a break from rtg.
     
  24. May 7, 2009
  25. skiny

    skiny Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas

    Occupation:
    Doing everyone else's job.
    Location:
    Canada
    [​IMG]

    This was my night last night. Tonight I logged back in with 42 dollars, hit a feature and brought it up to 56 dollars and then it followed pretty much the same line all the way to zero with no more features and most spins hitting much less than my wager if anything at all.
     
  26. May 7, 2009
  27. takethemoney

    takethemoney Banned User - Chargebacks at Slotastic

    Location:
    Washington
    Support got back to me, tech check the slot and apparently it is working fine and fairly. Go figure! :eek2:
     
  28. May 7, 2009
  29. skiny

    skiny Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas

    Occupation:
    Doing everyone else's job.
    Location:
    Canada
    You could spin a million times and hit zero every spin and they will tell you everything is working fine.

    And then they'll claim to be sorry for your bad luck. Then they'll tell you that they hope your luck gets better. And I tell them my luck won't get better unless the odds get better.

    And then the conversation ends.
     

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