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RNGs and bet-result phenomenon.

Discussion in 'Casino Industry Discussion' started by umberto, Jul 30, 2004.

    Jul 30, 2004
  1. umberto

    umberto Dormant account

    Hi all.

    RNGs ( random number generators ) really bother my mind lately. Is there any article or relevant piece of information of how RNGs operate? What I want to know is how RNGs results convert to game results. What is the procedure for this? Is it a buried mystery in casino software providers packages or are there any available info online? Along with RNG's function, it is a lot of interest the bet-result phenomenon. And I expain, If someone bet 10.000$ in a caribbean hand and had a playing session of a lot of hands, will the chances of winning something big be the same with a player betting 1$ per hand? I know that there are winning limits in tables but I think you understand what I mean. Bigger bets -> same chances of winning or not? If the player with big bets hits a good run then the casino should close..... or not?

    Thanks.
     
  2. Jul 30, 2004
  3. jpm

    jpm Dormant account

    If its truly TRULY random, then bet size has no effect whatsoever on game results.

    Search this forum and the others here for 'RNG'. There have been at least a few discussions here about how they work.
     
  4. Aug 1, 2004
  5. Mugwump

    Mugwump Dormant account

    Location:
    Oho
    A truly random RNG should never have anything to do with bet size.

    A RNG operates by generating a series of seemingly random numbers between 0 and 1 from a single seed. (i.e .93887232 .345828802, etc.) As I'm not a mathematician, but a programmer, I cannot tell you what functions would be suitable for this, but its similar to calculating the Xth digit of Pi, and it is a function typically built into the computer's processor.

    If you use the same seed, you will get the same sequence of numbers in return. This is useful for mathematicians and programmers, but is not useful for gaming. Therefore the programmer uses some technique to effectively randomize the seed. A common practice for the average programmer would be to use the most precise digits from the computer's clock to generate the seed. (i.e the time is 6:47 45.23484 seconds, the seed is 484)

    The programmer manipulates the random number generated into the form he needs, using mathematical functions. For example:

    I need to similate a 6-sided die roll.
    (btw, I'm an english major as well as a programmer, and the singular of dice is die. And the plural of dice is dice, not dices!!!!)​
    To do this I generate a seed (484, for example)
    I use this seed to generate a random number (.93887232)
    To turn .93887232 into a number from 1-6, multiply it by 6, add 1 and remove the remainder....
    .93887232 * 6 = 5.63323392
    5.63323392 + 1 = 6.63323392
    remove the remainder = 6

    I am reasonably sure that reputable casinos use a little bit more care in generating their seed numbers (my example only has 1000 possible seeds, clearly not enough for a casino), and perhaps use their own algorhythm to generate the number, instead of using the random number generator built into the processor, but they all pretty much use the same principals.

    To repeat, a truly random RNG should never have anything to do with bet size, nor how much you've won already, nor how much you've lost already. It would be nice if there was an independent organization out there somewhere that could audit these casinos and their results to assure us that they truly are random, but I doubt that will happen anytime soon. In the meantime, I just choose where I play carefully, and if results don't feel random, I don't come back.
     
  6. Aug 1, 2004
  7. DeMango

    DeMango Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Postal Clerk, Residential Contractor
    Location:
    Englewood, FL USA
    I multiply the random number by 10000, and take the integer. Gets me a four digit number and use that in my programing: 5068 is the cutoff for baccarrat higher player win, lower banker win. Craps use multiples of 275 for each of 36 possibilities. Between 9900 and 9999 loop back to try again!
     
  8. Aug 2, 2004
  9. jpm

    jpm Dormant account

    I believe that casino servers typically use Geiger-Muller tubes which measure radiation to generate either the random number itself, or the seed for the random number. They set the tube to measure background radiation, which is believed to be totally random, and have the server grab a number from the G-M tube when the player places a bet.
     
  10. Aug 2, 2004
  11. spearmaster

    spearmaster RIP Ted

    Occupation:
    Devil's Advocate
    Location:
    Heaven
    As far as I know, this is only applicable to Boss Media casinos - or at least they are the only ones to have publicly stated as much. But no matter how the servers obtain their randomness, as long as they are truly random it shouldn't be a problem.

    Would be kinda nice if they all used similar methods though...
     
  12. Aug 2, 2004
  13. hhcfreebie

    hhcfreebie Dormant account

    Occupation:
    research
    Location:
    USA
    A lot of good points here in this thread. To answer one of the original question
    The chance of hitting royal flush or 4 oak etc is exactly the same.
    The chance of winning big, let's say 100k, is not the same. The bigger you bet, the more likely you will win big (or lose even more!).
    It is close to impossible to win 100k betting $1, the house edge will grind you down.
     
  14. Aug 2, 2004
  15. jpm

    jpm Dormant account

    Thanks Spear, I wasn't sure where I'd read that, but I know it was on some casino's site. They were explaining how the RNG is determined, but I thought it was a playtech casino. No reason why it couldn't be both though. I actually thought that was the way most of these places did it.
     
  16. Aug 2, 2004
  17. umberto

    umberto Dormant account

    I think you didn't catch the basic meaning of the question. Let's say 2 players play only one hand with 100$ ante bet and hit the royal flush. Let's say it is a microgaming account and royal flush pays 999:1. The result would be 2* 200$ bet = 400 then multiply by 999 ---> almost 400.000$... If this occured casino's payout in carribean woulb be far more 100%.... I do not know how much... But would this be a reason for economical problems to the casino or not? And the main question and the thing i wonder is do the randomness of the casinos alters when there are huge bets?? The right and fair thing would be no but would this in some cases cause problems to the casinos? Also, were there such problems recorded in the past?
     
  18. Aug 2, 2004
  19. jpm

    jpm Dormant account

    And the main question and the thing i wonder is do the randomness of the casinos alters when there are huge bets??

    If it is random then it CAN'T be altered. Then it would no longer be random! What you're describing would be blatant rigging.
     
  20. Aug 4, 2004
  21. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    Maybe it was here:
    http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2035&highlight=Geiger-Muller
    Too bad the link for the article is a "page not found". It explained the whole process.
     

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