Rival Slots and bonuses

[Rusty]

Out of every deposit I can ever remember making at a Rival Casino and claiming a bonus of over 100% or a no deposit bonus I do not think I have got close to completing the WR and in fact usually get below 50% return on slots.

That is not 70 or 80 or 90% but below 50%!

Now I have brought this up before and asked Rival to give an explanation and also tell us how the claimed average payout of 95%+ on their slots is achieved but to no avail.

So given the reluctance of Rival to prove my claims false I wonder how do you do on bonuses at Rival and if you have achieved a cashout how did your play go before and after this?

It seems to me that if people were getting below 50% return on the majority of their deposits Rival would not be in business long so can it be that the slots are much tighter when taking a bonus?
Certainly all the facts and figures I have from my bonus play categorically support this.

This leaves me convinced that the slots can be and are rigged to lower payout on bonus play.

So am I right or have all my experiences been exceptions to the rule?

If you have had different experiences which slots do you play?

 

[MRGREENHEAD]

I have played quite a bit of Rival over he last 6 months. i seem to have the revers luck. Seems on my end when ever I am locked into a playthrough I do great!! My only big rival wins was when i had a playthrough. I have had 3 cashouts on rival in the last 6 months. Two from n/d's $400 and $60 small i know but it was max cashout on the nd. Also 500 from a 100% match with a 30x. So i figured that I would play some rival w/ no bonus. I lost 400 (in 50 dollar deposits) all together w/ no wr and could not even get above my starting balance. I have no stats or % but my play sucked. Guess it is the luck of the draw. GL

 

[ballysdb]

I always take a bonus and I think I have gotten my balance to exceed my deposit maybe 3 times!

I am getting VERY frustrated.

 

[KasinoKing]

So am I right or have all my experiences been exceptions to the rule?

I honestly don't know mate, but they are exceptions to my rule.

My results (all deposits) at 7 Rival casinos:-

Old Attachment (Invalid)
(Da Vinci & Superior weren't too hot... )

If you have had different experiences which slots do you play?

I play most of them, but I try to avoid the high variance games, and I hardly ever play the traditional iSlots.

For an idea as to what & how I play Rivals, have a look at my

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

.
(The $625 cash-out, second to last above)
Note: Skip the first 4 games when I went insane & nearly bust out (I was down to literally my last spin at one point!)

I really hope your luck improves soon.
KK

 

[Mousey]

Sometimes I get hits while playing with a bonus, sometimes not. Played with a bonus at Paradise8 last night and got some good hits -- all on the 3 reelers. Would have cashed out $550, but it seems I'm now limited to $500 wd , so I've got $50 in there to play on. I deposited with a card, so I fully expect (on Monday) to receive a request for docs and the faxback thingy. This one may take awhile....

I find the 3 reelers less volatile (usually) than the vid slots -- which usually gobble me up and spit me out, leaving me muttering "WTF?".

Pantasia sends me good bonus offers, but I've yet to cash out there. I'm going to uninstall it. I've got to try Sloto...

 

[RobWin]

Sometimes I get hits while playing with a bonus, sometimes not. Played with a bonus at Paradise8 last night and got some good hits -- all on the 3 reelers. Would have cashed out $550, but it seems I'm now limited to $500 wd , so I've got $50 in there to play on. I deposited with a card, so I fully expect (on Monday) to receive a request for docs and the faxback thingy. This one may take awhile....

I find the 3 reelers less volatile (usually) than the vid slots -- which usually gobble me up and spit me out, leaving me muttering "WTF?".

Pantasia sends me good bonus offers, but I've yet to cash out there. I'm going to uninstall it. I've got to try Sloto...

Mousey, why are you limited to a $500 withdrawal ?? Is it because of the particular bonus you used ??

 

[Mousey]

Mousey, why are you limited to a $500 withdrawal ?? Is it because of the particular bonus you used ??

They don't love me anymore.... :baby:

As best I can tell, it is totally unrelated to the bonus as there was no max cash out stated in the bonus terms. This particular bonus did have a minimum cashout of 2xbonus+deposit, which I was well clear of. I've been playing at Paradise8 and DaVinci's since they were the new kids on the block and I have become rather disappointed with them.

The cashier section stated WD amounts between $25 - $500 to my web wallet. I tried entering the $550 (just for poops and giggles) and it kicked me back saying I had entered an invalid amount. I entered $500 and everything was okey dokey.

 

[RobWin]

They don't love me anymore.... :baby:

As best I can tell, it is totally unrelated to the bonus as there was no max cash out stated in the bonus terms. This particular bonus did have a minimum cashout of 2xbonus+deposit, which I was well clear of. I've been playing at Paradise8 and DaVinci's since they were the new kids on the block and I have become rather disappointed with them.

The cashier section stated WD amounts between $25 - $500 to my web wallet. I tried entering the $550 (just for poops and giggles) and it kicked me back saying I had entered an invalid amount. I entered $500 and everything was okey dokey.

I'm curious if it has something to do with a daily limit to that particular webwallet you are using. That's odd, I've not heard of this one before...it's a new one on me.

 

[Mousey]

I'm curious if it has something to do with a daily limit to that particular webwallet you are using. That's odd, I've not heard of this one before...it's a new one on me.

New one on me, too. And I don't like surprises.

 

[bryand]

New one on me, too. And I don't like surprises.

I sure would alert the rep from Jetset Marketing on this problem. It doesn't seem right to me either.

 

[missmichelle]

They don't love me anymore.... :baby:

As best I can tell, it is totally unrelated to the bonus as there was no max cash out stated in the bonus terms. This particular bonus did have a minimum cashout of 2xbonus+deposit, which I was well clear of. I've been playing at Paradise8 and DaVinci's since they were the new kids on the block and I have become rather disappointed with them.

The cashier section stated WD amounts between $25 - $500 to my web wallet. I tried entering the $550 (just for poops and giggles) and it kicked me back saying I had entered an invalid amount. I entered $500 and everything was okey dokey.

Some of the casinos let you do muliple withdrawals of 500.00 at a time. I know when I cash out at inet I can only withdraw 500.00 at a time but I can make more than one withdrawal of 500.00.

Michelle

 

[2young2care]

Mousey, when I was bonus banned at Paradise 8, they limited my withdrawals to $500 too. No notifications, no nothing. It all happened in a split second before I was even finished playing my bonus wagering requirements and hadn't even requested a withdrawal yet. I'd contact the rep here and ask for clarification if I were you.

 

[Rusty]

Thanks to all those who have shared their experiences with me both here and through PM.

Thanks for putting that together KK and I see you won Twice running at the same Casino with a ND bonus which is pretty cool.

I also noticed that you have not managed a cashout from a deposit with a bonus of over 100% though.

Obviously though the higher the bonus then generally the higher the WR and so cashouts become less likely.

I don't think I have heard from anyone who has won with a slots bonus of over 100% though (correct me if I'm wrong) and I am still curious as to just how likely/unlikely my results actually are.

After all the slots are very streaky with long spells of hitting nothing at all but without knowing the virtual reel layout of the slots I can not do the Maths or be sure just how anomalous these results are.

I must admit I only deposit very occasionally at any of the Rivals and usually take a large bonus (naturally with such poor results and trying to get some playtime) but surely that makes no difference?

 

[Mousey]

Thanks to all those who have shared their experiences with me both here and through PM.

Thanks for putting that together KK and I see you won Twice running at the same Casino with a ND bonus which is pretty cool.

I also noticed that you have not managed a cashout from a deposit with a bonus of over 100% though.

Obviously though the higher the bonus then generally the higher the WR and so cashouts become less likely.

I don't think I have heard from anyone who has won with a slots bonus of over 100% though (correct me if I'm wrong) and I am still curious as to just how likely/unlikely my results actually are.

After all the slots are very streaky with long spells of hitting nothing at all but without knowing the virtual reel layout of the slots I can not do the Maths or be sure just how anomalous these results are.

I must admit I only deposit very occasionally at any of the Rivals and usually take a large bonus (naturally with such poor results and trying to get some playtime) but surely that makes no difference?

Bonus last night was 250% w/30xb+d WR and also the first time in a long time I'd managed to meet WR and cash out, too, at a Rival. I imagine I won't be getting any bonus offers from Paradise8 for awhile.

 

[XOXOXOXOXOX]

This leaves me convinced that the slots can be and are rigged to lower payout on bonus play.

I have the same feeling about all other casinos... But they can be beaten.
Here is my experience.

I played on Rival only for a month or two and had multiple withdrawals. Nothing was really big thought but i never deposit big either.
Paradise 8 and TIV was very cold, not much luck on Sloto, that seems to be the most populars ones.
The best Rival for me was Slots of Fortune and i did take 300% bonus. Their ScaryRich was really hot but it was few weeks ago... They paid me fast without faxback. Davinchi's was pretty good but may be its my personal luck.

I am really sad that I can't play there any more.

Edit: Dont recal exactly if it was 200% or 300% but most definitely more then 100%.

 

[XOXOXOXOXOX]

If you have had different experiences which slots do you play?

Missed this one....
I actually liked high variance because you can hit a big one but i noticed that they play better on 20-40c.
I like Pigskin, Scary Rich mostly 1, Secret garden and Jacques Pot. If you lucky you can get a few Jacque bonus games during free spin but sometimes you get none and then it usually sucks.
I found that sometimes DogPound would give a good return but a bonus round was very hard to get. But it was helpful to complete more play-thru .

I don't like BabyBoomers or some other games KK seems to like. So it's probably a matter of personal taste and luck.

So am I right or have all my experiences been exceptions to the rule?

Its hard to say who is an exception but i wish you luck.

 

[sparkles]

Mousey

try doing the $50 as a seperate transaction, it may put the minimum rule into play though, but worth a try, take Neteller for instance its $1000, and you cant put anymore through, so say if I had $1200 (that would be nice!!), Id do the $1000, then do the $200

 

[hobobiker]

eh?

I honestly don't know mate, but they are exceptions to my rule.

My results (all deposits) at 7 Rival casinos:-

(Da Vinci & Superior weren't too hot... )

is there a method or reason behind the figures? ie: deposit 50 at one and withdraw 150 but deposit no more , deposit over and again at another to cash out zero. and then deposit 400 at another ...win jack ...but carry on to deposit another 200? only to win 2500 ....?

and do you find that the best returns come from the casinos that offer the best commission or bonus to their affiliates ?

 

[RobWin]

is there a method or reason behind the figures? ie: deposit 50 at one and withdraw 150 but deposit no more , deposit over and again at another to cash out zero. and then deposit 400 at another ...win jack ...but carry on to deposit another 200? only to win 2500 ....?

and do you find that the best returns come from the casinos that offer the best commission or bonus to their affiliates ?

If you believe that then you would have to believe that the games are somehow rigged which they are not since they all run off of the same servers as has been proven many times over.

 

[hobobiker]

If you believe that then you would have to believe that the games are somehow rigged which they are not since they all run off of the same servers as has been proven many times over.

No i dont believe the games are "rigged" as this would suggest that they are somehow dishonest, but i do believe that the games are Regulated ( or controlled) in some way , they have to be in order for the casino to profit in the long term by having an edge of about (normally) 5% . and because online its all virtual then i think that to "regulate" or change the house edge on not only specific games but also on individual players is just a matter of tapping a few keys ... and yes all the games of certain groups (MG, crypto, playt etc ) are run of the same servers , but i cannot see how this in some way proves that the games all run the same for each casino .... the servers are run by the software supplier who services the casino , but just like any other service industry they will tailor the software to the needs or request of the client , and the casino will request the software or games to play according to the individual player or time of month (bonus time etc etc.) so as to make the maximum profit while still trying to produce an acceptable return to the player.
so ..Random !! definitly not ,
rigged!! wrong word,
controlled ...yes ....as tightly as a little mousy's A**hole.

 

[RobWin]

No i dont believe the games are "rigged" as this would suggest that they are somehow dishonest, but i do believe that the games are Regulated ( or controlled) in some way , they have to be in order for the casino to profit in the long term by having an edge of about (normally) 5% . and because online its all virtual then i think that to "regulate" or change the house edge on not only specific games but also on individual players is just a matter of tapping a few keys ... and yes all the games of certain groups (MG, crypto, playt etc ) are run of the same servers , but i cannot see how this in some way proves that the games all run the same for each casino .... the servers are run by the software supplier who services the casino , but just like any other service industry they will tailor the software to the needs or request of the client , and the casino will request the software or games to play according to the individual player or time of month (bonus time etc etc.) so as to make the maximum profit while still trying to produce an acceptable return to the player.
so ..Random !! definitly not ,
rigged!! wrong word,
controlled ...yes ....as tightly as a little mousy's A**hole.

Let me make sure I understand what you are saying here....In order for that theory to work the casino would have to be in contact several times a day with the software manufacturer to give them the list of player names and set payout ratios for these particular players depending on how often the casino wanted to "control" that players outcome. The software manufacturer would then have to re-tweak that particular players win/loss ratios and then serve them back up and they would be able to do this on a daily or weekly basis for thousands of players at 17 different Rival Casinos ??

 

[bryand]

It seems we have 4 or 5 threads going at once that relate to Rival payout percentage and/or bonuses. As has been assumed for many months and recently confirmed by the rep for Simon Says in one of the other threads, all Rival powered sites reside on the same cluster of servers and all share the same RNG. Hence payout percentages are equal for each skin.

I also agree with Rob that bonuses have no effect on payout percentages. Each casino operator controls payouts for match deposits by setting the WR for promotions.

 

[hobobiker]

Let me make sure I understand what you are saying here....In order for that theory to work the casino would have to be in contact several times a day with the software manufacturer to give them the list of player names and set payout ratios for these particular players depending on how often the casino wanted to "control" that players outcome. The software manufacturer would then have to re-tweak that particular players win/loss ratios and then serve them back up and they would be able to do this on a daily or weekly basis for thousands of players at 17 different Rival Casinos ??

Er no ... i am not saying that ......why would the casino have to contact the software people several times a day with thousands of peoples play details ???? .... thats what the computers are for , they compute things very very quickly ..... things like win/lose ratios and they comminicate with each other ..... to share information like a players balance ....wins...losses...etc .
when you withdraw money from a cashline or hole in the wall, is there someone in the bank sat behind the wall making notes on who withdrew what ... then several times a day they ring head office to adjust the balance of those hundreds of people who withdrew money ... at the same time deciding who gets charged for going overdrawn ... charges etc etc , or how much interest is charged etc..... well believe it or not there aint no little guy with a notepad behind the wall..... because the computer software works it out and the computers talk to each other in a funny language ... like beep beeep booop beep beeeep boooo beeep.
or maybe the casinos are different and there is someone sat there watching ...and when you bet a fiver they ring the software people and tell them to deduct it off your balance .... but if this is true ... they are really really quick at writing ... maybe they use shorthand.

 

[KasinoKing]

is there a method or reason behind the figures? ie: deposit 50 at one and withdraw 150 but deposit no more , deposit over and again at another to cash out zero. and then deposit 400 at another ...win jack ...but carry on to deposit another 200? only to win 2500 ....?

and do you find that the best returns come from the casinos that offer the best commission or bonus to their affiliates ?

Part 1; No, there is no 'system' to my deposits - I just deposit when I see a fairly decent bonus which does not have crazy WR.

Part 2; That sounds like a loaded question! No - I've been playing online for 8 years & and affiliate for not quite 3 years - I have not noticed anything different at any casinos.

No i dont believe the games are "rigged" as this would suggest that they are somehow dishonest, but i do believe that the games are Regulated ( or controlled) in some way , they have to be in order for the casino to profit in the long term by having an edge of about (normally) 5%.

That's not a unique, but for me it's a very strange opinion; Basically you are saying you think casinos operate like UK fruit machines - random up to a point, but programmed to give wins or dry spells to achieve the final house edge?
To me, controlled = rigged = dishonest.

In my opinion that is a totally bizarre concept. Can you accept the a real physical roulette wheel is not rigged, but still makes 2.7027% profit overall due to the mathematics? If you can accept that, then try to imagine a slot is a giant roulette wheel - it does not have to cheat to win, the mathematics gives it it's long-term house edge, even with totally random spins.
If you can't accept that then maybe you shouldn't play at all online, because if all the casinos are 'controlled' then none of us could win long term, could we?

KK

 

[hobobiker]

That's not a unique, but for me it's a very strange opinion; Basically you are saying you think casinos operate like UK fruit machines - random up to a point, but programmed to give wins or dry spells to achieve the final house edge?
To me, controlled = rigged = dishonest.

if all the casinos are 'controlled' then none of us could win long term, could we?

KK

most people on this site have probably been gambling for a few years and in that time had good wins and bad losses at online and land, and i can say for myself that "long term" i dont win .... i can remember the good wins ... but there are a lot of losses which are better forgotten, and im pretty sure ( could be wrong) that most people on this forum if honest have like myself not made a profit over the years and have spent or lost more than they would like to admit to others or even themselves ..... and your right in saying that maybe i should not gamble online if i believe they are (which i do), but i will continue in the hope that one day i will be like yourself lucky enough to make a profit at this pastime,.

on another note , how do you find the time in between your daytime job, to play so many plays , log and put on a database each/every result , and maintain and update a pretty busy website and play golf. . . ? are you human?

 

[Rusty]

Part 1; No, there is no 'system' to my deposits - I just deposit when I see a fairly decent bonus which does not have crazy WR.

Part 2; That sounds like a loaded question! No - I've been playing online for 8 years & and affiliate for not quite 3 years - I have not noticed anything different at any casinos.


That's not a unique, but for me it's a very strange opinion; Basically you are saying you think casinos operate like UK fruit machines - random up to a point, but programmed to give wins or dry spells to achieve the final house edge?
To me, controlled = rigged = dishonest.

In my opinion that is a totally bizarre concept. Can you accept the a real physical roulette wheel is not rigged, but still makes 2.7027% profit overall due to the mathematics? If you can accept that, then try to imagine a slot is a giant roulette wheel - it does not have to cheat to win, the mathematics gives it it's long-term house edge, even with totally random spins.
If you can't accept that then maybe you shouldn't play at all online, because if all the casinos are 'controlled' then none of us could win long term, could we?

KK

That is a fair point KK about genuine house edge and it is often used as a counter argument to the "adjusted payout theory"

If we go with your argument we have to believe that a combination or all of the following are true;

1) The Casino is run by honest and ethical people (lack of proper regulation)

2) The Casinos prefer software that they have no control over, rather than being able to adjust payouts to suit their own needs. (Surely there is a software operator that allows Casinos to adjust payout on their slots?)

3) The Casinos are not greedy and would turn down the chance to make an extra few hundred Thousand pounds even if the opportunity existed. (Adjusting to a lower payout even for short periods can make a big impact and is undetectable and unprovable)

4) Casinos self audits and payout claims are genuine (assuming they even give any)

You can make your own arguments as to what needs to be true for the "Adjusted payout theory" to be correct.

There is of course a very easy way to settle this argument Once and for all and that would be for Rival (and any other software supplier) to supply the true odds of winning combinations on their slots.
It would then be very simple to check for, what is referred to in the industry as, Raking periods, "Where a machine deliberately forces a series of losing games by use of any compensation or other controller mechanism." or Enriched periods,"Where the machine deliberately forces winning outcomes over a series of games by use of any compensation or other controller mechanism." (quoted from the UK Gambling Commission site) Any of those seem familiar to your online slot play experience?

The obscure reply I get from Casinos and software suppliers alike when requesting this information is that they won't give this it because they do not want their rivals (no pun intended) to know how their slots work.
Now hang on, I thought they were random and payout was based purely on probability and paytables, the gameplay mechanic is surely self evident. Smoking gun?
I have even shown in past posts how the paytable and probability of outcome are apparently not linked which is very strong evidence to suggest that payout is calculated by other means.

Ultimately if you want to play online, 'you pays your money and takes your chance', but that does not mean punters are not entitled to all the relevant information and probability of outcome along with many other safeguards that would be supplied in a properly regulated industry.

To be fair to the industry and those who do want to stamp out some of the more odorous practises and operations the Online world of gambling and Casinos is not half as bad as it might be due to their efforts.
There are some relatively good Casinos out there but a lot more transparency and honesty on how the games, especially slots, actually operate would be most welcome.

Here is a link to the UK Gambling Commission Machine standards regulations which contains some interesting reading.

Old / Expired Link

 

[bryand]

There is of course a very easy way to settle this argument Once and for all and that would be for Rival (and any other software supplier) to supply the true odds of winning combinations on their slots.

I totally believe online operators' assertion that payout percentages are in the 95% - 98% range. The key is to define 'payout percentage'. I believe it includes loyalty bonuses, freebies, match bonuses, software licensing fees (essentially all casino costs sans profit). Hence the true cashout percentage is somewhere between 50% and 60% IMO.

Just think about it - how can an online casino give a 10% loyalty bonus (and in some cases an additional 10% cashback bonus on losses) plus match bonuses plus freebies and actually pay out 95% of deposits? The numbers do not add up.

 

[XOXOXOXOXOX]

I totally believe online operators' assertion that payout percentages are in the 95% - 98% range. The key is to define 'payout percentage'. I believe it includes loyalty bonuses, freebies, match bonuses, software licensing fees (essentially all casino costs sans profit). Hence the true cashout percentage is somewhere between 50% and 60% IMO.

Don't they publish those numbers (95%-98% or so) based on individual games such as slots and video poker for example. Then how bonuses and such would apply ??

 

[KasinoKing]

on another note , how do you find the time in between your daytime job, to play so many plays , log and put on a database each/every result , and maintain and update a pretty busy website and play golf. . . ? are you human?

No, I'm with Vortran!

The real answer is I have a very tolerant wife & spend every spare minute of every day in front of a computer! Also, if you look at my monthly results log you will see I only play 3-6 casinos per month, which is not a lot really if I'm averaging about 2hrs play every day. I compile my play logs as I go along - it's how I keep an exact track on how much WR I've completed.

I totally believe online operators' assertion that payout percentages are in the 95% - 98% range. The key is to define 'payout percentage'. I believe it includes loyalty bonuses, freebies, match bonuses, software licensing fees (essentially all casino costs sans profit). Hence the true cashout percentage is somewhere between 50% and 60% IMO.

Just think about it - how can an online casino give a 10% loyalty bonus (and in some cases an additional 10% cashback bonus on losses) plus match bonuses plus freebies and actually pay out 95% of deposits? The numbers do not add up.

No one said casinos pay out 95% of deposits did they?

You deposit $100 and play $1 spins on a 95% slot, on average:-
After 100 spins you have $95 left,
After the next 100 spins you have $90 left,
After the next 100 spins you have $85 left,
After the next 100 spins you have $80 left,
After the next 100 spins you have $75 left,
etc, etc, until your bank is zero.
The return of the slot is still 95%, even though you got a 0% return on your deposit.

KK

 

[bryand]

@KK - you're actually helping to make my point which is to dispell the notion that 95% payout percentage means 95% cashout percentage. I've had the debate here before that theoretically all players could play until bust and casino's cashout percentage would be ZERO. Yet I remember Enzo posting several months ago that the house edge is fixed, like rakeback in poker. That is a casino's annual profit necessarily equals house edge times total deposits less expenses. I'll try to dig up the old thread about house edge.

 

[Mousey]

Not to derail the path of the thread, but as an update to my post re: my cashout at Paradise8 (and in fairness to the casino) -- I have received my withdrawal without all the docs/faxback fol-de-rol I fully expected. Thank you P8.

Now back to your regularly scheduled conspiracy theory...

 

[Rusty]

Not to derail the path of the thread, but as an update to my post re: my cashout at Paradise8 (and in fairness to the casino) -- I have received my withdrawal without all the docs/faxback fol-de-rol I fully expected. Thank you P8.

Now back to your regularly scheduled conspiracy theory...

Thanks for the update.

Just a thought on the idea of conspiracy theories.

The common man will always accept a believable untruth rather than a unbelievable truth.

History is full of conspiracy theories proved fact by those brave enough to question the status quo and in so doing they drag the fickle and weak into the light.

I am not suggesting I am One such pioneer but rather trying to clarify that conspiracy theories are by nature convoluted as the plots they seek to uncover are often Machiavellian in nature.

The guardians of lies and purveyors of misinformation will always try to ridicule and discredit those who seek to unmask them if they can not challenge the arguments.

That does not mean that all conspiracy theories have some basis of truth or that cranks do not exist it just means we should keep an open mind and question everything, the only danger we face is to become more enlightened but a little less comfortable in our new wider World.

There endeth the Sermon.

 

[Mousey]

Thanks for the update.

Just a thought on the idea of conspiracy theories.

The common man will always accept a believable untruth rather than a unbelievable truth.

History is full of conspiracy theories proved fact by those brave enough to question the status quo and in so doing they drag the fickle and weak into the light.

I am not suggesting I am One such pioneer but rather trying to clarify that conspiracy theories are by nature convoluted as the plots they seek to uncover are often Machiavellian in nature.

The guardians of lies and purveyors of misinformation will always try to ridicule and discredit those who seek to unmask them if they can not challenge the arguments.

That does not mean that all conspiracy theories have some basis of truth or that cranks do not exist it just means we should keep an open mind and question everything, the only danger we face is to become more enlightened but a little less comfortable in our new wider World.

There endeth the Sermon.

Wasn't too long ago, (during the AP mess) that my sig was: Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.

My 'back to regularly scheduled....' comment was tongue in cheek and I forgot to put a cute winky icon in.

I'll say this and let it be... The fraud and collusion (using a backdoor in the poker software, documented, proven and admitted) at Absolute and UB has done more to rattle any faith I had in the fairness of online gaming, than anything I've personally experienced playing online.

 

[lauram]

Only rival i cashed out from was sloto and that was when i never used a bonus.
Always found soon as playthrough matched money left boom games died.
So no bonus did well many cashouts and then at the end of the week they send you a sloto ticket for me was anywhere between 10 to 50 with playthrough,