Random Generator thoughts

[jamie]

I have been searching for a good Online Casino " home " and think I found a very good accredited one , but had some stuff added at download that didn't look quite right to me . Showed something questionable ( perhaps really meaningless ) with a Superantispyware scan related to a different Casino so have been hesitant to send real money as yet .

The Casino is Slotocash and can't praise the support folks highly enough . The response to a myriad of my questions has been rapid and superb . One of the most significant problems I see with online casinos is that there are different degrees of " randomness " related to random generators and I feel it should be clearly stated and certified as well as overall payout % for each Casino . Had I been searching , as I was , and found one that software with a 100% random generator , I would have readily given that a try . Even at 100% randomness the odds are still against the patron simply because that is the nature of " gambling " .

Hope to see this become a reality someday as all we are all asking is for
" FAIRNESS " .

Thanks ,

Jamie

 

[Nifty29]

I have been searching for a good Online Casino " home " and think I found a very good accredited one , but had some stuff added at download that didn't look quite right to me . Showed something questionable ( perhaps really meaningless ) with a Superantispyware scan related to a different Casino so have been hesitant to send real money as yet .

The Casino is Slotocash and can't praise the support folks highly enough . The response to a myriad of my questions has been rapid and superb . One of the most significant problems I see with online casinos is that there are different degrees of " randomness " related to random generators and I feel it should be clearly stated and certified as well as overall payout % for each Casino . Had I been searching , as I was , and found one that software with a 100% random generator , I would have readily given that a try . Even at 100% randomness the odds are still against the patron simply because that is the nature of " gambling " .

Hope to see this become a reality someday as all we are all asking is for
" FAIRNESS " .

Thanks ,

Jamie

A Random Number Generator generates random numbers. If it does anything remotely different to that, it is not a Random Number Generator.

The RTP/Payout% is a totally different issue. You can have a 97% RTP using an RNG that is 100% fair.

You should do some research around the forums here and educate yourself about how slots work, and you will find that you're actually looking at the wrong things when choosing an online casino. If you're seriously concerned that the RNGs aren't RNGs, then you are absolutely right not to risk any money, and should not do so at any time.

Spyware programs often treat online casino downloads as suspicious. I have never seen a case where such a download has contained a virus etc.

 

[243 lines=daft]

Hope to see this become a reality someday as all we are all asking is for
" FAIRNESS " .

I quite agree but the only way this can ever be possible is if a culture of complete transparency becomes forced on the industry from outside.

When I walk into a 'real' casino and play roulette, I am faced with complete transparency. I can see the wheel, I can see there are either 37 or 38 slots and the payout is 35-1 and I understand exactly what I'm dealing with and what I have to overcome to win (specifically one or two slots for the house).

If the major online casinos were willing to deliver a comparable level of transparency with virtual games, they would already be doing so.
It is as simple as that.

 

[skiny]

I quite agree but the only way this can ever be possible is if a culture of complete transparency becomes forced on the industry from outside.

When I walk into a 'real' casino and play roulette, I am faced with complete transparency. I can see the wheel, I can see there are either 37 or 38 slots and the payout is 35-1 and I understand exactly what I'm dealing with and what I have to overcome to win (specifically one or two slots for the house).

If the major online casinos were willing to deliver a comparable level of transparency with virtual games, they would already be doing so.
It is as simple as that.

Are you talking about slots or roulette? If you're talking about online roulette the game is supposed to behave exactly like a real roulette table. (Not counting the ball actually bouncing around on the wheel of course.) A European roulette table should have an equal chance of landing on any of the 37 numbers every spin. If it doesn't you won't find any transparency because the game is cheating.

If you're talking about slots I don't know what exactly you're expecting to see. If you walk into a land based casino you get to see the slot screen, the pay table and maybe the payout percentage (more than likely of the entire casino and not one game.) That's about the same thing you see online. The only real question is whether or not you believe the casino is telling the truth.

And even then you don't really have to believe the casino because reputable casinos will be audited so you then have to believe the auditor and the auditing process. I'm not sure how that's different from a land based casino either since I don't know exactly how either of them are audited.

If you're worried about the games not being fair you're better off with a large software company that licenses it's software to many casinos. They'd have little to gain from making games that cheat and would probably be easily exposed if they did. Companies that make and operate their own software would be more difficult to expose.

 

[jamie]

Nifty 29 .


I'll readily admit I am a novice in the PC world , but had talked sometime back to one of the major online accredited casino managers and was my understanding that he agreed that there are different degrees of randomness available in RNG's . Guess that may be another one who needs educating .

I am sure the owners will do no more than they are forced to and simply not playing online I suppose does send the strongest message for change .

Jamie

 

[skiny]

Nifty 29 .


I'll readily admit I am a novice in the PC world , but had talked sometime back to one of the major online accredited casino managers and was my understanding that he agreed that there are different degrees of randomness available in RNG's . Guess that may be another one who needs educating .

I am sure the owners will do no more than they are forced to and simply not playing online I suppose does send the strongest message for change .

Jamie

I didn't really respond to the "degrees of randomness" question because I don't understand what it means. A random number generator will generate random numbers from x to y. If you generate numbers between 1 and 10, you have to have an equal chance of generating any of the 10 numbers or it's not really random. Random doesn't favor specific events.

You could have something like an array of numbers "1, 2, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10" with two or more of the numbers the same and then have the RNG generate numbers between 1 and 10 replacing the generated number with the corresponding number in the array. With this you would have a greater chance of getting a 2 than any other number and no chance of getting a 3 but the RNG is still generating random numbers. The question is what the software is doing with the numbers after they're generated.

So are you actually saying the RNG doesn't generate random numbers or the software is changing the odds after the number is generated? Because if that's what you're saying, that's not cheating. What I described above is an extremely simplified version of how a slot reel works. Now if a roulette game is doing this the RNG isn't cheating, the roulette software is and I strongly suggest you bet on 2.

 

[jamie]

Skiny ,

What I was saying ( or attempting to say ) was that it was my understanding that RNG's could be altered which would necessarily affect payout percentage I would think . This led me to feel that a Casino owner could " order " a 50% or 60% or ? random generator which I thought could be applied to any Casino game . Had this been the case it was my " wish " that all Casinos would be required to state which RNG they were using and , if refusing to do so be subjected to removal from accreditation .

Jamie

 

[jamie]

Nifty 29 ,

To respond to your comment regarding my concern about entries in the Superantispyware scan log -- what was of concern to me was that the entry showed Golden Palace Casino rather than simply Slotocash each time I installed Slotocash . Thought perhaps they had been hacked ? I can understand a harmless and necessary entry if solely related to Slotocash and could tell SAS to ignore .

Jamie

 

[Nifty29]

Skiny ,

What I was saying ( or attempting to say ) was that it was my understanding that RNG's could be altered which would necessarily affect payout percentage I would think . This led me to feel that a Casino owner could " order " a 50% or 60% or ? random generator which I thought could be applied to any Casino game . Had this been the case it was my " wish " that all Casinos would be required to state which RNG they were using and , if refusing to do so be subjected to removal from accreditation .

Jamie

No.

A RNG cannot be "programmed" to be anything but an RNG. If the numbers it generates are not random it is not an RNG.

Casinos who want to "rig" games don't have to play with the RNG.

I would also suggest you need to read up about what payout percentages actually mean. It is entirely possible to get a 60% payback in the short term on a 100% fair game, especially a high variance one.

Your spyware program is obviously misidentifying the slotocash program. It wouldn't be the first time. You might also have malware that's causing it.

 

[The Dude]

...

If you're talking about slots I don't know what exactly you're expecting to see. If you walk into a land based casino you get to see the slot screen, the pay table and maybe the payout percentage (more than likely of the entire casino and not one game.) That's about the same thing you see online. The only real question is whether or not you believe the casino is telling the truth...

That's pretty much it. Whether or not you are in a land based casino, or playing online, you have to decide who you can trust. At the Wynn, the floor manager couldn't tell me the RTPs of certain slot games. But RTPs are reported for the entire casino - not individual casino games. So when a RTP report is published that claims the Wynn's games are at average 95% RTP - it's virtually meaningless to a player since most players stick to a handful of favorite slots.

And if they say 95% - is that really so? Same with online. You have to make that decision yourself, no one can do that for you.

I'll readily admit I am a novice in the PC world , but had talked sometime back to one of the major online accredited casino managers and was my understanding that he agreed that there are different degrees of randomness available in RNG's . Guess that may be another one who needs educating .

I am sure the owners will do no more than they are forced to and simply not playing online I suppose does send the strongest message for change .

Jamie

Welcome to the forum, Jamie

As for the RNG question, there are different types of RNGs - that could be what the casino rep was referring to. You can read up on it at Wikipedia here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

But it's either random or not. The casinos listed here (to include the RTG casinos) all have RNGs that are officially audited by TST, and other qualified auditors. I would have no worries there.

 

[Cogge]

I quite agree but the only way this can ever be possible is if a culture of complete transparency becomes forced on the industry from outside.

When I walk into a 'real' casino and play roulette, I am faced with complete transparency. I can see the wheel, I can see there are either 37 or 38 slots and the payout is 35-1 and I understand exactly what I'm dealing with and what I have to overcome to win (specifically one or two slots for the house).

If the major online casinos were willing to deliver a comparable level of transparency with virtual games, they would already be doing so.
It is as simple as that.

It's probably a lot easier for the croupier at the casino to spin the ball so it lands in specific area (thus causing losses and avoiding "randomness"), than it is for an online casino to change the randomness of their RNG.

Actually, in general, the roulette in the casino is probably a lot less random (due to human interference, tilted tables etc...) than any online roulette.

It's just that when you look at it, you see a wheel with 37-38 slots, all seemingly identical and normally you'd think all of them have the same shot. Imagine sandpapering a die on one side. Slight changes might not even be noticeable to the naked eye, but they can have huge impact on the long term outcomes.

 

[Richas]

If you're talking about slots I don't know what exactly you're expecting to see. If you walk into a land based casino you get to see the slot screen, the pay table and maybe the payout percentage (more than likely of the entire casino and not one game.) That's about the same thing you see online. The only real question is whether or not you believe the casino is telling the truth.

And even then you don't really have to believe the casino because reputable casinos will be audited so you then have to believe the auditor and the auditing process. I'm not sure how that's different from a land based casino either since I don't know exactly how either of them are audited.

This joint press release from the UK Gambling Commission, Inspired Gaming Group and William Hill organisation Limited sets a standard for action on rtp, rtp disclosure and regulatory compliance. We get this reassurance for the Reel King game in a William Hill betting office in the UK. I see no reason for the same standard of disclosure and enforcement for online games. Indeed the online games track who played as they are account based so the refund would go to the players not charity.

Old / Expired Link

14 February 2013

Inspired Gaming Group and William Hill Organisation Limited:

Gaming Machine Supplier Inspired Gaming Group (“IGG”) and William Hill Organisation Ltd (“William Hill”) have agreed to make a joint ex gratia payment of £300,000 to the Responsible Gambling Trust; to be used at the Trust's discretion.

The payment, which is being made with the agreement of the Gambling Commission, relates to a self reported notifiable event which occurred when an updated version of a Category B3 game, Reel King (developed by Astra Games) was uploaded to the William Hill retail estate in May 2012. As a result of a technical fault the return to player (RTP) percentage advertised in the game help pages did not reflect the actual average RTP percentage of this random B3 game. Once the technical fault was confirmed, an immediate report was made to the Gambling Commission, but the displayed return to player was not corrected until the fault was rectified by the end of July 2012.

Whilst individual customers are unlikely to have been significantly disadvantaged, it is recognised by both parties that there has been a breach of the technical standards, as the required integration testing was incomplete, and that as a result customers were given incorrect information as to the intended RTP, which persisted after the error was identified. While the impact on individual customers would have been minimal, this was not in accordance with the licensing objective to be fair and open, nor with our corporate policies and priorities, which require adherence at all times and in all respects to the licensing objectives.

Both IGG and William Hill regret this incident, which revealed some deficiencies in the way in which our corporate commitment to social responsibility was reflected in practice. This has since been remedied and William Hill apologises unreservedly to those customers who may have been affected. Both companies re-affirm their commitment to comply with their regulatory obligations, particularly those around ensuring customer fairness at all times.

Matthew Hill from the Gambling Commission said:

"The Gambling Commission (“the Commission”) acknowledges that both Inspired Gaming Group (“IGG”) and the William Hill Organisation Ltd (“William Hill”) reported the fault, as required, at the earliest opportunity and kept the Commission closely informed with the progress of investigations. The Commission welcomes the way IGG and William Hill reacted once they became aware of the issue and commend the remedial efforts they have taken to ensure that the licensing objectives are given proper priority. The Commission welcomes the ex gratia payment that has been made in recognition that they would not wish to benefit commercially from this event and their agreement that the lessons learnt from this episode should be shared with other operators.

The Commission would therefore like to take this opportunity to remind all operators that:

It will hold Boards and key PMLs accountable for making sure social responsibility and adherence to the licensing objectives are central considerations.
Operators will not be permitted to benefit commercially from any failures to give proper priority to social responsibility.
Operators should be open as early as possible with notifiable events (as IGG and William Hill were) and as required by licence condition on key events or they will exacerbate the risk of regulatory sanctions."

 

[jamie]

Thanks to all for " educating " me . I have been registered with Casinomeister for years and talked with Bryan sometime back reagarding some of my first experiences with online Casinos with Captain Cook . Just loved that casino till Casino Rewards took it over .

Thank you Bryan for all you do and I have always depended on Casinomeister heavily . I did attempt to read the article you suggested , but was a bit deep for me . It did say that there are different types of random generators and " seems " to me they could be manipulated , but I feel much better knowing you feel they are audited . As for the payout percentage -- I am very aware of the fact that it is an OVERALL number for an entire casino so suppose it is not that important .

This is a portion of the random generator article suggested :

A "random number generator" based solely on deterministic computation cannot be regarded as a "true" random number generator, since its output is inherently predictable. How to distinguish a "true" random number from the output of a pseudo-random number generator is a very difficult problem. However, carefully chosen pseudo-random number generators can be used instead of true random numbers in many applications. Rigorous statistical analysis of the output is often needed to have confidence in the algorithm.[


I would like feedback from someone else who installs Slotocash to see if they also get that Golden Palace entry in the scan log for Superantispyware . Just curious . I have also run Malwarebytes and do so frequently with usually great and clean results . Only Superantispyware showed a " problem " . I do plan to give Slotocash a try as they have been unusually responsive and helpful much as were the support folks at the old Captain Cook .

Thanks again to all for being so helpful with this post . I feel I must apologize for being fairly ignorant , but want you to know that I may be dumb , but I'm not smart !! Heeee !!

Jamie

 

[bigjohn]

The Golden Palace warning you are getting certainly seems like a remnant from them still lingering in your computer or some type of virus/malware. Did you ever have Golden Palace installed on that particular computer?

From what I know about RNG's they produce a number between 0 and 1 with a certain number of decimal places. No computer, or any machine for that matter, can produce a truly random number. The user of that decimal will assign their own value to it. For a casino in simplest terms if they were to take the first two places from the decimal that was generated by the RNG and multiply it by 100 they can get a number between 0 and 100. Again, in simplest terms if they assign any of those numbers from 0 to 85 as an even money win for the player the casino will show a RTP of 85%. If a different casino assigns numbers from 10 to 100 as an even money win for the player they will show a RTP of 90%.

Take the raw random number, multiply it by 37 and round it off and you'll get a random number between 0 and 37 and there's your roulette wheel. Multiply it by 85 and here comes your bingo numbers.

All computers have their own built-in RNG that could be tampered with so on-line casinos use their own or one provided by a third party, maybe the licensing association (I know Kahnawake provides this) or the casino software provider.

 

[jamie]

bigjohn ,

Did you install Slotocash and then run Superantispyware ? I never had Golden Palace in this PC . I probably run scans on my PC more than most anyone and has nearly always been very clean with both Malwarebytes and SAS plus Microsoft Security Essentials with the exception of a couple of the usual adware things and just get rid of them after the scan .

I did notice a post in the forum near mine indicating some folks were having trouble with the Slotocash software ( temporarily ) and seems that Slotocash was in the process of correcting something . Might have been because of what I posted about that Golden Palace showing up in the scan ???


Just wondered if you had installed and then run SAS and found nothing regarding Golden palace ? I am going to install it again later and then see if the scan still shows Golden Palace as well as Slotocash .

Thanks bigjohn ,

Jamie

 

[bigjohn]

I have no experience with Superantispyware but I must admit the name would have thrown me off. I looked around and it seems to be a legit program.

I have had Slotocash on my computer for a long time and did not have any problems when I installed it. I know my computer's defense system sometimes blocks the RTG installer. When I run a scan on my computer I used to get a Treasure Nile virus hit. I believe Treasure Nile was a Microgaming slot but microgaming left the US market before I got my current computer. It's possible 'Golden Palace' is just a name given to a particular piece of malware.

I did a quick google search for 'golden palace virus' and got quite a few links, it might be worth checking them out.

 

[jamie]

bigjohn ,

Malwarebyte and Superantispyware at the two most highly recommended programs I seem to find mentioned most often . I suppose I may have just worried about nothing regarding that Golden Palace notification as a potential threat ???

I am going to re-install Slotocash again soon and then see what appears on that scan . I really want to give that casino a try . I am soo poooor that I can't play till I hopefully get a small tax refund that I can convert to Big Money !!! Ha!!!

Jamie

 

[jamie]

bigjohn ,

Malwarebyte and Superantispyware at the two most highly recommended programs I seem to find mentioned most often . I suppose I may have just worried about nothing regarding that Golden Palace notification as a potential threat ???

I am going to re-install Slotocash again soon and then see what appears on that scan . I really want to give that casino a try . I am soo poooor that I can't play till I hopefully get a small tax refund that I can convert to Big Money !!! Ha!!!

Jamie

I just re-installed Slotocash in another PC that belonged to an elderly lady friend who never played any online casinos . I did use the same exe. file that I had downloaded earlier from Slotocash for my PC . I ran Superantispyware and that same notice appeared which showed Golden Palace Casino . Must be something in the RTG program that is left over or ??? I am leaving the " warning " in my PC and do plan to play for real money as soon as I have funds .

It shows Adware.Casino Games ( Golden Palace Casino ) . I don't see Slotocash listed as a " possible threat " . It does go on to say that some cookies are harmless and used for tracking and I would imagine that is all this is , but Slotocash will not work if I quarantine this item .

Jamie

 

[orlandacasino]

I have fear to play europe roulette in internet cause of "RNG" , so we just have to play in a most trustful casino outhere
Thanks to casinomeister to tell me which ones are.
Sorry for my english.

 

[Nifty29]

bigjohn ,

Malwarebyte and Superantispyware at the two most highly recommended programs I seem to find mentioned most often . I suppose I may have just worried about nothing regarding that Golden Palace notification as a potential threat ???

I am going to re-install Slotocash again soon and then see what appears on that scan . I really want to give that casino a try . I am soo poooor that I can't play till I hopefully get a small tax refund that I can convert to Big Money !!! Ha!!!

Jamie

You're obviously planning to stay poor.

 

[skiny]

You're obviously planning to stay poor.

A lot of people use tax refunds for fun money. As long as the money isn't needed to pay your bills I say let it roll.

 

[dionysus]

A lot of people use tax refunds for fun money. As long as the money isn't needed to pay your bills I say let it roll.

I think he was referring to him saying he is soooooooooooooooo poor; gambling, save for the rarest exception, especially slots, is a bad way to be less poor.

 

[jamie]

I think he was referring to him saying he is soooooooooooooooo poor; gambling, save for the rarest exception, especially slots, is a bad way to be less poor.

Oh No !!! You have bursted my bubble ! After paying bills I will have five big ones to play and just knew I would be wealthy finally . Now I am thinking I had better save my five dollars ! Heee!!

Jamie

P.S.

Thanks to all for the great response to my post . Has been really informative .