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Providers moving the goal posts

dionysus said:
There's nothing wrong with a healthy dose of skepticism, There are after all, bad apples. But there's also ridiculous fear-mongeriing and tinfoil hattery.

Let's look at restaurants.
When there's a new one, I'll go read reviews and customer experiences.

But just because there's that one story about some nasty shenenigans that have occurred in a restaurant, every time I go to a major fast food chain, I don't lift the burger top to check if someone spit in it (or as some tinfoil hatters would have you belieive, EVERY restaurant does, and therefore will bring swabs, question why the pickle is less green than the last one or why one of the onion cubes is 3% smaller than the others)
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But you would complain if your burger came with a bit nibbled off making it 5% smaller without that information being clearly displayed.
 
snorky510238 said:
But you would complain if your burger came with a bit nibbled off making it 5% smaller without that information being clearly displayed.
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I agree games should clearly state their RTP
 
Speaking of burgers, went to 'Five Guys' just the other day. Apart from needing a translator for my order, the size of this burger was huge - should have definitely come with a warning.

But I gobbled away the Five Guys nonetheless.....and not for the first time in a dark alley ooh err
 
dionysus said:
I agree games should clearly state their RTP
Click to expand...
Yes they clearly do not go out of their way to let players know. For obvious reasons with money making being their ultimate goal but with gambling being so in the spotlight it would give players a bit more reassurance if governing bodies were forcing casinos to do this.
 
snorky510238 said:
Yes they clearly do not go out of their way to let players know. For obvious reasons with money making being their ultimate goal but with gambling being so in the spotlight it would give players a bit more reassurance if governing bodies were forcing casinos to do this.
Click to expand...

I have a look at every new game that hits the casino's I play at and yesterday I noticed this gem. Once again from a lower tier provider called Booming Games.

7dbca1d6f2a664109ad36509023f5a9a.webp


It's nice of them to put the RTP in there, they just forgot to fill it in I guess :what:
 
sufferinsilence said:
I have a look at every new game that hits the casino's I play at and yesterday I noticed this gem. Once again from a lower tier provider called Booming Games.

View attachment 117605

It's nice of them to put the RTP in there, they just forgot to fill it in I guess :what:
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Choose your own rtp! How generous of them.
 
sufferinsilence said:
I have a look at every new game that hits the casino's I play at and yesterday I noticed this gem. Once again from a lower tier provider called Booming Games.

View attachment 117605

It's nice of them to put the RTP in there, they just forgot to fill it in I guess :what:
Click to expand...
I don't believe they are UKGC or MGA licenced are they?
 
sufferinsilence said:
They have an MGA, Swedish and Italian GC logo on their website.
Click to expand...
If that game is live in MGA (and that picture is from real money mode) then that would strike me as wrong, assuming that's also an MGA regulated site.
 
trancemonkey said:
If that game is live in MGA (and that picture is from real money mode) then that would strike me as wrong, assuming that's also an MGA regulated site.
Click to expand...

The picture is from demo mode but I just doublechecked because you mentioned it and it's the same in real money mode.

I can't check on MGA sites, the Belgian gambling jurisdiction is a closed one as you might know.
 
Regulation should step in and make it HURT to use the lower rtp.
Maybe force them to have a pop-up with some info for the player.

"Hello player.
We at x-casino has chosen to offer a version of this slot that makes us more money.
Instead of 96% return to the player, aka you, this version only gives back 94%.

If you want to have a better chance at winning while playing this slot, here are some casinos that offer the non-reduced rtp version of this slot. X-casino, x-casino, x-casino, etc.."

And voila, no site would use a lower rtp-version ever again.
:p
 
Kroffe said:
Regulation should step in and make it HURT to use the lower rtp.
Maybe force them to have a pop-up with some info for the player.

"Hello player.
We at x-casino has chosen to offer a version of this slot that makes us more money.
Instead of 96% return to the player, aka you, this version only gives back 94%.

If you want to have a better chance at winning while playing this slot, here are some casinos that offer the non-reduced rtp version of this slot. X-casino, x-casino, x-casino, etc.."

And voila, no site would use a lower rtp-version ever again.
:p
Click to expand...

So what happens in countries that have higher tax rates that are not in the control of the casino? They may HAVE to use lower RTP settings, so this would be wholly unfair
 
trancemonkey said:
So what happens in countries that have higher tax rates that are not in the control of the casino? They may HAVE to use lower RTP settings, so this would be wholly unfair
Click to expand...

Was not 100% serious. =)
But maybe something along those lines could be worked out.
Like how low rtp% you are allowed to use based on what tax etc you pay.

I do think the different regulatory bodies should put some of the effort they put on filling their pockets (well not theirs) into actually making the casino-scene a better&safer place for the player.
Gamban&spelpaus, 3-sec delay etc sure look real good on paper, but we all know it does nothing to stop the "real" problem gamblers.

Like how is not offering swedish players bonuses gonna stop Sven Stormborn from spinning away his loot he got on his travels? I get that it was to stop the aggressive marketing alot of sites use.
But for average gambler its mostly negatives. We wanted the bonuses, and the deposit-freespins etc.
Atleast i did. It helped stretch my small gambling budget.
 
Kroffe said:
Regulation should step in and make it HURT to use the lower rtp.
Maybe force them to have a pop-up with some info for the player.

"Hello player.
We at x-casino has chosen to offer a version of this slot that makes us more money.
Instead of 96% return to the player, aka you, this version only gives back 94%.

If you want to have a better chance at winning while playing this slot, here are some casinos that offer the non-reduced rtp version of this slot. X-casino, x-casino, x-casino, etc.."

And voila, no site would use a lower rtp-version ever again.
:p/QUOTE]
Hey unregulated casinos with suspect software, have a field day.

The fact that certain uk casinos for example lowered the RTP versions is not greed but the need to actually survive/make a profit.
Click to expand...
 

But for some it must be about making more or maintaining a certain profit, not just about surviving.
Like on the swedish market, there are not many casinos using lower rtp.
Are all the ones using high/normal rtp going out of business, or have they decided that they can live with a little less profit?

Its like they want to eat the cake and have it too.
"Oh, we want to operate on the swedish market, but we will let the swedish players pay for it"
If it wasnt profitable operating on the swedish market, no site would be here, but there are tons of sites here.
And most use the higher rtp-setting.
 
Companies often don't like any reduces to profits but growth every year, if something is cutting profits, some will make efforts to keep them growing or not at least reducing.

Regulations and taxes in regulated markets for sure are cutting profits and raise operational costs when things like SOW etc... actually came reality, more monitoring of players behavior and handling documents etc.. is something what some companies would like to take back from somewhere.
 
I think the problem may be that the online market is insatiable but by the same token it is saturable.

In simplistic terms Casinos can never have enough players but there is a limited amount of players and disposable cash they have. Whilst at the same time there is no cap on the amount of Casinos that are allowed to open. SOMETHING HAS TO GIVE.

The market growth has to peak at some point. Yes there will always be new players but you will always lose players at the same time.

I haven’t researched any figures because I wouldn’t know where you could find an accurate account of market trends regarding this that could be trusted as bona fide.

Basically there has to be a point where it peaks and from there on in it is likely to go into decline. With FOBTS this took around 12 years based on what I witnessed. The turnover was well on the decline before the max bet was reduced.

Like a few posts have already stated Casinos will not want to see annual profits decrease, which they inevitably will at some point. Therefore something has to give.

It started a while back with casinos giving less freebies, then lowering RTPs, tax increases, gamstop and tools put in place to try and safeguard players as much as possible and large fines being handed out to casinos found to be in breach of certain legislation.

All of these things combined will have a major effect on how Casinos operate. Let’s be honest until fairly recently a huge amount of money being passed through Casinos would have been laundered money.

Now this has been made more difficult to do (I won’t say eradicated because I am not that naive) Casinos will have lost a vast amount of turnover.

Piece all of this together and you can get a pretty clear picture of why the industry is where it is. I saw the decline of the FOBT and from what I have seen recently I believe I am seeing the start of the decline of the online gaming industry.

It won’t happen overnight, probably not for a few years yet but as a player DO NO EXPECT THINGS TO IMPROVE. THE GOOD DAYS ARE IN THE PAST.

Disclaimer: These are just my personal views and not based on facts in anyway but don’t say I didn’t tell you so.

snorky 9/11/2019
 
goatwack said:
And yet the UK online scene is one of the largest and most profitable in the world!

I won't be packing away the violins just yet
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t give a rats arse if they all folded in all honesty.
The way the whole industry and all involved conducted themselves over the years is abhorrent.
Eventually it was going to tighten up, make hay while the sun shines and all...
 
trancemonkey said:
So what happens in countries that have higher tax rates that are not in the control of the casino? They may HAVE to use lower RTP settings, so this would be wholly unfair
Click to expand...

Can not agree with this statement. I will use Videoslots in my explanation:

Videoslots reduced the RTP by calling higher taxes is the issue, but the taxes are differently high(er) and getting all the same reduction. Now announcing that they will go to use the low RTP settings for everyone, means the tax explanation was not the full truth. Already at the begin I noticed that the reduction is overcompensating the tax difference. But not only that they also cut so many things I want not count up again.

Meanwhile many other casinos offering the highest RTP options, they also offer bonus offers from time to time. Instead destroying the clarity they had before, every game on highest RTP, they could cut the bonus for higher taxed countries. But this was not their intend, they wanted to get even more than before and the cut was not meant to compensate anything, but to increase the profit by a large amount.

A game should always only be allowed to have one RTP Setting, if not: there always must be a noticeable declaration when entering the game. This would be fair for all players, if you think this is not fair - is it fair to let new/uninformed players play their while they have no clue about the RTP reduction at this casino?

Short version: A casino never should change the RTP version of a game for the sake of clarity this is important. They can cut bonus / loyalty programs for higher taxed countries. But not the games itself.
 
snorky510238 said:
All of these things combined will have a major effect on how Casinos operate. Let’s be honest until fairly recently a huge amount of money being passed through Casinos would have been laundered money.
Click to expand...

Let's ignore the rest of the hot take post, I assume you got some proper solid proof for your money laundry claim?

No? Okay?

As for your insight to the start of the decline, I can only envy your foresight and future generations will clearly benefit from Your skills in business
 
Last edited:
Halvor said:
Let's ignore the rest of the hot take post, I assume you got some proper solid proof for your money laundry claim?

No? Okay?

As for your insight to the start of the decline, I can only envy your foresight and future generations will clearly benefit from Your skills in business
Click to expand...
There’s no substitute for experience kid. ;)
 
Aryol said:
Can not agree with this statement. I will use Videoslots in my explanation:

Videoslots reduced the RTP by calling higher taxes is the issue, but the taxes are differently high(er) and getting all the same reduction. Now announcing that they will go to use the low RTP settings for everyone, means the tax explanation was not the full truth. Already at the begin I noticed that the reduction is overcompensating the tax difference. But not only that they also cut so many things I want not count up again.

Meanwhile many other casinos offering the highest RTP options, they also offer bonus offers from time to time. Instead destroying the clarity they had before, every game on highest RTP, they could cut the bonus for higher taxed countries. But this was not their intend, they wanted to get even more than before and the cut was not meant to compensate anything, but to increase the profit by a large amount.

A game should always only be allowed to have one RTP Setting, if not: there always must be a noticeable declaration when entering the game. This would be fair for all players, if you think this is not fair - is it fair to let new/uninformed players play their while they have no clue about the RTP reduction at this casino?

Short version: A casino never should change the RTP version of a game for the sake of clarity this is important. They can cut bonus / loyalty programs for higher taxed countries. But not the games itself.
Click to expand...

This is a brilliant post, if the idea of it was to prove you have zero idea how taxation on casinos works :)
 
Halvor said:
Agreed, I assume my My decade in the industry qualifies as more experience that 2 years of tin foiling on CM.

I can only assume based on your reply that any claims of money laundering starts and ends at your rare, but I'd love to see you prove me wrong.
Click to expand...
And in English? ;)
 
If you read all of my posts you would see that I have stated several times that accounts should be fully verified before a deposit is allowed to be made. I suppose you could consider that a double bluff if you were smart enough to think that way. Sorry my generosity doesn’t quite stretch that far.
 
snorky510238 said:
If you read all of my posts you would see that I have stated several times that accounts should be fully verified before a deposit is allowed to be made. I suppose you could consider that a double bluff if you were smart enough to think that way. Sorry my generosity doesn’t quite stretch that far.
Click to expand...
Sure, I'm stupid.

I still fail to see how a few companies failing at responsible gambling somehow proves organised money laundering in the industry.

Can you kindly enlighten me?
 
Halvor said:
Still waiting for your proper reply
Click to expand...
The fines were handed out for not having the correct measures in place to prevent money laundering. Are you telling me these safeguards need to be in place because money laundering exists or they need to be in place because money laundering doesn’t exist?
 
snorky510238 said:
The fines were handed out for not having the correct measures in place to prevent money laundering. Are you telling me these safeguards need to be in place because money laundering exists or they need to be in place because money laundering doesn’t exist?
Click to expand...
Are you telling me that fines totaling 4.5 million Somehow indicates a wide spread reliance on money laundering in the industry?

If anything it proves that the Industry is regulated, that checks are done and companies can't do whatever they feel like.
 
snorky510238 said:
Are you forgetting these fines were handed out last year. A good 15 years after online gaming became so popular.

Do you really think the Gambling Commission would be implementing these rules if money laundering wasn’t a major concern?
Click to expand...
Never argued that money laundering has happened in the industry, but it nothing we want, like and it's actually being dealt with whenever it happens.

I'm arguing your claim that a large portion of the revenue in the industry comes from it, as frankly it's wrong. So far you've provided proof that fines are handed out for breeches. Yet to see anything backing up your claim
 
Again if you read my post you are referring to I actually said that until recently a huge amount of money being passed through Casinos would have been laundered.

I didn’t mention a figure or a percentage or how many Casinos where I thought this has happened. I simply said a huge amount of money and you would have to be naive to think that statement is totally false.
 
This hilarious... Snorky is 100% failing to answer any direct question. I bet he's a politician ;)

Let me help you:

Gambling is a terrible way to launder money
However, yes it has been used to do so
The UKGC (and other regulators) require safeguards in place to help stop it. Some casinos failed to do this well enough.

No, that does not mean every casino is complicit laundering money.

Now your turn to answer straight questions Snorky :)
 
Not directly by gambling but online casinos have been used for money laundering by criminal organizations, there have been some operators who have been existing mostly to do that, these we at least bit significant amounts what was processed through business to make it clean.

Only by gambling it's not really much used (or at least not many have got busted), most of these failures have been when that operators haven't completed any SOW verifications when players have been loosing loads of money within short time and it been found out to be stolen so not pure money laundering but using funds which player is not entitled to and have got them by stealing or other fraudulent behavior which have been more RG issues if someone have to steal money from work, relatives etc... to gamble.

Laundering big amounts of money by gambing online is not really best and easiest way to make it clean but if you don't have tens of million pounds but some smaller amounts wouldn't be that hard to make some ten thousands clean just by spreading it to enough many sites that you don't trigger anything suspicious and keep your thresholds small etc.... But not really in top ten list if would need to make my stolen millions usable.
 
snorky510238 said:
If laundering money isn’t such a big issue then why the need to supply SOW. It’s not just to make sure people aren’t spending beyond their limits is it!

I am failing to see the direct question I am being asked
Click to expand...

@Halvor asked you the same direct question multiple times. I'll let them repeat it:)
 
snorky510238 said:
If laundering money isn’t such a big issue then why the need to supply SOW. It’s not just to make sure people aren’t spending beyond their limits is it!

I am failing to see the direct question I am being asked
Click to expand...

AML regulations have been addressed in most of businesses last years to pay more attention to monitor money laundering and other suspicious activities. Banks in EU countries have been complete these assessments to all their clients like when customer visit bank, getting SOW questioned bit similar way than casinos SOW questionnaires like list all your source of incomes, do you send/receive money outside of country and for who/why etc...

This been in news at least in some countries when customers got very surprised about these personal questions now after being their customers 20 years or so.... But these assessments and DD checks are completed in many other businesses than only online gambling.
 

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