Possible issue with BLR Tech casinos craps software

[Eliot Jacobson]

Greetings,

I would like to draw this forum's attention to a thread over at Wizard of Vegas, regarding the software created by BLR Tech, and used by online casinos such as "World Wide Wagering." The thread is investigating a possible issue with fairness of their craps software. A user created videos of several sessions using this software. Those videos demonstrate a strong likelihood of bias in the software against the user.

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The investigation is ongoing.

Kind regards,

Eliot

 

[binary128]

clempops4, the thread initiator at tWoV, was amazingly persistent, and inspirationally diligent, in his attempts to get the forum's statisticians around to his side of the blackboard. But I was truly astounded at the amount of data that he included in several of his posts, and the trouble to which he went to put all of this on video and move it all up to youtube. Fortunately, boymimbo went to the time and trouble to go through all of those videos and extract workable data.

The amount of hard work, and data, that is being displayed here is just huge.

To me, the water is still a little muddy. The working solution - "OK, you found it, now exploit it!":

With that data, $1 don't + $6 each 6 and 8 always working yields -56 on the line, +356 on the place bets, net +300. Go for it.

is fantastic.

But, it is early days. It will be interesting in how this all plays out, especially given the statistics-savvy crew on that forum. (I can tell you, I wouldn't want the team of DorothyGale and boymimbo on my trail if I were the perpetrator of some crime.)

I had never heard of BLR Technologies before. The specific Sportsbook/Casino in question, World Wide Wagering, has a B rating on SportsbookReview, which isn't bad. However, BLR Tech is also powering the Casino product for the sportsbook Legends, which, with an SBR A+ rating, is one of the top books in the world.

I'm wondering - who is watching this tWoV thread? BLR Tech? World Wide Wagering? Legends?

The issue has already made one migration, from tWoV to Casinomeister. Perhaps a more valuable migration, from clempops4's perspective, might be from tWoV to SportsbookReview.

I suspect that the Casino for World Wide Wagering is on very the edge of their radar screen. It's entirely possible that World Wide Wagering is not even aware of Casinomeister, or tWoV.

Chris

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

The evidence is now overwhelming that the BLR Tech craps software is rogue. Details will come out soon. In the mean time, I advise not playing at any casino that runs their software.

 

[binary128]

The evidence is now overwhelming that the BLR Tech craps software is rogue. Details will come out soon. In the mean time, I advise not playing at any casino that runs their software.

I just saw the latest posts on tWoV thread. Agreed; pretty overwhelming.

If someone here can start a thread on SportsbookReview about this issue, then I think that this would be an appropriate thing to do. As I mentioned, the current users of this software may not even be aware that Casinomeister exists. I think it is safe to say that they know of SportsbookReview.

 

[DarkMage]

I have played very little on this software but I blown maybe $200-300 on it over the past year.

At the time I just shrugged it off as bad luck and never returned but now that the software is in question I will absolutely not stand for being cheated.

I have fired off an email to the sportsbook using this software that I used and will continue to go from there.


I can accept to LOSE I will not accept being CHEATED

Even if it was for a small amount of money...I don't care

 

[bb28]

FYI

Here is some info I found. Link Removed (Old/Invalid) .

Hope it's ok to copy and paste because it wouldn't surprise me if it doesn't disappear.

BLR TECHNOLOGIES, INC.


BLR Technologies offers a gaming platform featuring sports and casino software. The sports software offers a variety of bet types and sporting events. The casino software is integrated with BLR Sports, but also has a stand alone solution with its own management tools and features. The casino client enables any interface which supports XML Communication including cell phones, handhelds, pocket pcs, etc. Available games include a variety of video poker games, card games, table games, slots and a progressive jackpot on Caribbean Poker.
See the Online Casino City listing for BLR Technologies, Inc.


Products and Services
Games Software > Sportsbook Software
BLR Sportsbook provides a complete system which encompasses all aspects needed to develop and operate a sports wagering website or business. It is very easy for your customers to navigate trough all the types of sports offered and place wagers on their favorite teams, access their plays for the day and check their balances. BLR Tech also provides a complete management system that allows you as a bookmaker to have complete control of your organization whether it is line moving or creating reports to analyze betting and player performance.
Games Software > Racebook Software
BLR Racebook allows you to take wagers on most of North American Tracks, Australian Tracks and other major horse events, and supports all the following types of bets: straight bets (win/place/show), quinellas, exactas (box and keyed) trifectas, superfectas, daily doubles, pick’s and parlays. The Internet user will find that introducing multiple wagers within one ticket is solely a BLR racebook function, keeping always simplicity in mind our wagering interface allows the horse bettor to easily check their selections and place bets just like they would do at the track.
Games Software > Casino Software
BLR Casino software offers you and your players all major casino games such as: Blackjack, Pai Gow Poker, Baccarat, Three card poker, American Roulette, Craps, Slot machines and Video Poker. Our casino solutions are engineered to perform at great speed and accuracy. BLR Casino provides a comprehensive backend reporting system, including current player games and hands; log-in information and pending game information. We have invested all of our efforts on creating the most visually spectacular and distinctive flash based gaming interface. We offer a multiple selection of skin designs for you to choose from.

Headquarters
Physical Address: Mailing Address:
Centro Comercial Plaza Mayor
2da Etapa 3er Piso, Rohrmoser
Pavas, San José
Costa Rica
PO Box 2040-2050
San Pedro, San José
Costa Rica

Phone: +506 2 210 7980
Fax: +506 2 210 7985
Website: www.blrtech.com
Email: [email protected]

Upper Management: Mr. Javier Pereira, Chief Executive Officer
[email protected]
Marketing: Mr. Andrew Leetz, International Business Development
[email protected]

Additional Information
Date Established: August, 1998
Slot Games Offered by BLR Technologies, Inc.
Alien Abduction Kingdom of Poseidon Roman Colosseum
Caribbean Island Monster Truck Spaceship Battle
Gold Fever Ninja Attack Super Nova
Great Circus Red Planet The Maya's Secret
Jurassic Adventure Robot Escape Treasure of the Nile

Gaming Sites Using BLR Technologies, Inc. Software
5Dimes Casino and Sportsbook Legends Sports World Wide Wagering
Heritage Sports Loose Lines Casino and Sportsbook

 

[boymimbo]

Cannot confirm BLR Casinos...

Of the five casinos listed, I can only confirm that LEGENDS and WORLD-WIDE WAGERING are using BLR software. Heritage requires a login while the other two sites appear to not be using this software anymore.

 

[DarkMage]

Throw Legendz Sportsbook&Casino into the pit Mr.Casinomeister

this is an email I got back from them

Unfortunately the people who starts this threads are not people like yourself that accept losing and spread their guilt for their irresponsible gaming in the most irresponsible way.

 

[boymimbo]

This is not bad luck.

The Wizard himself ran a sample of runs using real money and completed a statistical analysis on the results. There are live videos from the OP over at WOV that confirms the results now for more than 700 comeout rolls. DorothyG and I both ran statistical analysis on the OP's results. This is NOT bad luck. The results have been repeated and the sample sizes have been substantial enough to prove beyond any reasonable amount that there is a problem.

On DON'T PASS:
We're talking about 52 come out 3s on 2,600 come out rolls. The expected value is 148.6. And 528 7s (expected value 445). On the numbers, the points were made 60% on the 4 (EV 33.3%), 68% on the 5 and 9 (EV 40%), 71% on the 6 (EV 45.4%), 70% on the 8 (EV 45.4%), and 58% on the 10 (EV 33.3%). And this is over 1,813 come out rolls. All videod, all confirmable, and all statistically next to impossible in a fair game.

PASS Line:
On 600 come out rolls, there were 45 sevens (expected value 100), and 54 3s (Expected 33.33). On the numbers, the points were made 9 times in 59 samples on the 10 and 5 times in 40 samples on the 10. The 6 and 8 were made 44 times in 175 samples. Once again, all videod, confirmable and statistically next to impossible in a fair game.

The Wizard of Vegas site gets plenty of claims of bad luck all of the time and usually, an analysis confirms that the sample size was too small to confirm anything. In this case, the math experts (I am not really one of them) have weighed in and confirmed that the result sets show an undeniable and obvious bias.

I have no interest in any of the sportsbooking sites. I have no memberships to any online casino and haven't made a single wager online in my lifetime. Online casinos should be making enough money on their casinos through edge alone and shouldn't be cheating its users.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

I posted this on WoV and am re-posting it here.

I have a cash account on a casino that runs the BLR Tech software.

I first ran 100 rolls on the DON’T; my results were consistent that I was playing a rigged version.

I decided to create a simple test to force the software to exhibit an extreme bias. I exclusively played the pass line. If a point was established, I then bought every number 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, meaning that a 7 was the killer number to get if the software was rogue.

In 100 rolls, I established a point on 74 of them. After establishing a point, the first roll was a “7” on 41 out of those 74 points. The expected number is 12.33 with a standard deviation of 3.21, putting this result 8.94 standard deviations above expectation.

Out of the total of 135 rolls made once a point was established, 63 of them were “7”. The expected number is 22.5 with a standard deviation of 4.33, putting this 9.35 standard deviations above expectation, or about 1-in-4500000000000000000000.

A chi-squared test on the distribution of rolls after the come out gave a result that was 1-in-1.42x10^14.

I strongly advise not playing at any casino that operates this software.

I lost about $300 in 100 rolls playing this strategy, at $1 per wager + $1 buy bets.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Is it possible to outsmart this rigged software to ensure you WIN more than you should?

If this is possible, the casino will be forced to admit the game is not random in order to void the bets.

A few UK Fruit Machines got completely hammered like this because players figured out how the games worked and outsmarted them

In rigging software, the possibilty is introduced that the cheating algorithm itself has a programming error in it, which is how UK style "compensated" games ended up being the victims of "emptiers".

 

[boymimbo]

Is it possible to outsmart this rigged software to ensure you WIN more than you should?

If this is possible, the casino will be forced to admit the game is not random in order to void the bets.

A few UK Fruit Machines got completely hammered like this because players figured out how the games worked and outsmarted them

In rigging software, the possibilty is introduced that the cheating algorithm itself has a programming error in it, which is how UK style "compensated" games ended up being the victims of "emptiers".

One of the posters at WoV suggested this as well and we're hoping a volunteer to give this a try. Eliot's attempt to buy all of the numbers after the come out roll resulted in much more bias. Suggestions included laying other numbers after come-out and trying a doey-don't (betting the don't and pass at the same time) and betting heavily on the 12. The programmers probably have taken this into account but it would be interesting to give it a try.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Eliot's attempt to buy all of the numbers after the come out roll resulted in much more bias. Suggestions included laying other numbers after come-out and trying a doey-don't (betting the don't and pass at the same time) and betting heavily on the 12. The programmers probably have taken this into account but it would be interesting to give it a try.

I've tried to figure out how to beat it by turning its programming against it, and I've conducted numerous experiments, including those suggested at WoV. I've not been able to gain an edge.

One particular experiment is worthy of note: I established a pass line point for $1, (I believe it was 5), then I bought each of the numbers 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10 for $1, then I put $10 on "Any 7". I hit roll and the program froze for about 30 seconds before an "8" was rolled. It wasn't lag because the "thinking" animation continued to run.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I've tried to figure out how to beat it by turning its programming against it, and I've conducted numerous experiments, including those suggested at WoV. I've not been able to gain an edge.

One particular experiment is worthy of note: I established a pass line point for $1, (I believe it was 5), then I bought each of the numbers 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10 for $1, then I put $10 on "Any 7". I hit roll and the program froze for about 30 seconds before an "8" was rolled. It wasn't lag because the "thinking" animation continued to run.

I've seen this on UK Fruit Machines when they are being "outsmarted" by a clever player trying an "emptier" or "method" that involves turning the coded bias against the house.

This seems to suggest that this is a "compensated" Craps game set to a specific RTP, and what you are seeing is the software changing so as to enforce this RTP that is naturally lower than the RTP of a random Craps game it represents. Such programming allows a game to run to a set RTP that is not "natural" without making it too obvious to the player that they are playing anything other than a random game.

I do not know enough about Craps to even attempt to manipulate this software. It is possible that the sportsbook are knowingly running rigged casino software so that they can subsidise the sportsbook to allow it to offer better odds than would be possible on a "fair" book that offered competitive odds, yet not so competitive that it lost money overall.

If there is no programming error, and the game has been programmed to defend against the kind of thing a UK Fruit machine player would try if they thought a game was "compensated", it is quite possible that the software cannot be beaten, but you WOULD (as seems to be the case) be able to force it to cheat even MORE obviously whilst gathering data that will damn it for certain.


Maybe the Craps is not the ONLY game that it rigged, but the low house edge on "natural" craps makes the gap, and thus the bias, between the natural and "compensated" RTP much more obvious.

 

[4 of a kind]

It's obvious the software is rigged; but is it rigged knowing and countering where the money is being bet, or is it a case similar to class 11 machines with preset RTP's? If it is a class 11 machine it's not illegal unless of course they advertised the games were random.

 

[Jufo]

It's obvious the software is rigged; but is it rigged knowing and countering where the money is being bet, or is it a case similar to class 11 machines with preset RTP's? If it is a class 11 machine it's not illegal unless of course they advertised the games were random.

To me it looks like the former and not class 11 machine. Besides if the game rules state that it is a game of craps, then I don't think they are allowed to tamper the odds.

 

[binary128]

It's obvious the software is rigged; but is it rigged knowing and countering where the money is being bet, or is it a case similar to class 11 machines with preset RTP's? If it is a class 11 machine it's not illegal unless of course they advertised the games were random.

I've thought about this ever since your thread "Online Video Poker (maybe)". If I wanted to include a "Policy Statement" in Galewind's Help files specifically declaring games as Class III rather than Class II, to what games should I apply this Policy?

Video Pokers: Yes. But what other games would need this? (In that thread I raised the thought that there might even be a Class II and a Class III Slot machine.)

However, on consideration, I'd have to conclude that if someone is indeed attempting to run what they might argue is a "Class II" table game (Craps, Roulette, any of the table card games), then this would be fraud.

 

[4 of a kind]

I've thought about this ever since your thread "Online Video Poker (maybe)". If I wanted to include a "Policy Statement" in Galewind's Help files specifically declaring games as Class III rather than Class II, to what games should I apply this Policy?

I am by no means qualified whats so ever to classify your games. I've only recently just learned that these classifications even existed. Yet, based on all the information you offered throughout this thread and forum how your games actually function, (confirming true randomness) and not knowing if there are certain software requirements to be classed a 111 series, I would guess they are Class 111.

Not sure if it would be safe to publicly advertise they are Class 111 games, without confirming they do in fact conform to all the software requirements (if any) to be labeled as such.

 

[Pocketdiggers77]

I have played BLR software at 5dimes and Legends. I have emailed both of them about what is going on and Legends is saying their software is different. It didn't look different to me. Same games and same graphics but I think they Are saying their software uses a third party hardware random number generator. Is this possible? Is there anyway someone can audit their software? Here is what they said

Greetings from Legends!

Us and 5 dimes use a complete different platform. Our Casino engine is powered by certified hardware random number generators (RNGs) used by the most respected gaming operations around the world which will prevent issues like the mentioned on the post from happening. Please refer them to this link if they come on the live chat or email:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Best Regards,

Jason Devore

 

[Pocketdiggers77]

I can also confirm Heritage Sports does NOT use BLR. They use DGS. I have an account there and it has been this for as long as I can remember. I'm sure Heritage is furious about this. Legends on the other hand is taking a completely differnt approach and 5Dimes did the smart thing and removed the software.

 

[silcnlayc]

Excellent thread and information. Thank you all.

.

 

[GrandMaster]

Is it possible to outsmart this rigged software to ensure you WIN more than you should?

If this is possible, the casino will be forced to admit the game is not random in order to void the bets.

In craps you can bet on both sides of any event (or almost any, if I missed something), so you cannot simply rig it by some loaded dice. If the game were made much more unfavourable to the pass bettors, who are the majority, the don't pass bettors could clean up. The roll of the dice must depend on the bets on the table, just like in Elka Systems/Oyster Gaming roulette in fun mode. I did an experiment, if I bet on red, red would come up about 80% of the time, if I bet on black, black would come up 80% of the time. I would not be surprised if the probabilities were reversed when playing with real money. The exact method of rigging can only be guessed from sufficiently large data.

 

[boymimbo]

Dice aren't loaded. They're fixed.

In craps you can bet on both sides of any event (or almost any, if I missed something), so you cannot simply rig it by some loaded dice. If the game were made much more unfavourable to the pass bettors, who are the majority, the don't pass bettors could clean up. The roll of the dice must depend on the bets on the table, just like in Elka Systems/Oyster Gaming roulette in fun mode. I did an experiment, if I bet on red, red would come up about 80% of the time, if I bet on black, black would come up 80% of the time. I would not be surprised if the probabilities were reversed when playing with real money. The exact method of rigging can only be guessed from sufficiently large data.

Results were biased in one direction when the don't was being placed and in the other direction with the pass being played. When another player (using real money) placed all of the numbers after the point was made, the 7 was the next number rolled in 41 of 74 experiments, so I'm pretty much convinced that the software is intelligent enough to kill you no matter what you're betting.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Results were biased in one direction when the don't was being placed and in the other direction with the pass being played. When another player (using real money) placed all of the numbers after the point was made, the 7 was the next number rolled in 41 of 74 experiments, so I'm pretty much convinced that the software is intelligent enough to kill you no matter what you're betting.

The game of craps offered by BLR Technology is rigged; it performed in a rogue fashion against all tested strategies. There is no indication that a strategy could be devised to defeat this rogue programming; it appears to be adaptive.

This is not a matter of a faulty RNG, or an RNG that is somehow producing one outcome more often than another. This is hard coded rogue logic built into the game software. I have tested RNG's for many years, and have a lot of experience with improper installations of RNG's and with RNG's that are not performing randomly. This software gave no indication of a problem with the RNG. Rather, the software gave an indication of weighting the outcomes according to the bets on the table, with the RNG producing an outcome consistent with this weighting.

In testing, it is important to state a hypothesis before the testing occurs and then to create an experiment based on that hypothesis. Because of my belief that the program was adaptive, I devised an experiment to exploit this logic to create an extremely biased particular outcome. I was able to make the software produce 41 "7"s in 74 rolls. This is an incredible result. Incredible because of the force of the conclusions that must be drawn, as well as the extraordinary odds against such an occurrence.

Any online casino that continues to offer the BLR Technology product with knowledge of the audits that took place, and is not itself conducting an immediate, fair and impartial third party audit of the BLR Technology craps software, is operating as a rogue.

Kind regards,

Eliot

 

[The Dude]

@ Eliot - thanks for bringing this to my attention

Rogued: https://www.casinomeister.com/rogue-casinos/

 

[boymimbo]

Absolutely I agree. The casinos who are still operating this software are rogue.

 

[spiderman]

The game of craps offered by BLR Technology is rigged; it performed in a rogue fashion against all tested strategies. There is no indication that a strategy could be devised to defeat this rogue programming; it appears to be adaptive.

...

Any online casino that continues to offer the BLR Technology product with knowledge of the audits that took place, and is not itself conducting an immediate, fair and impartial third party audit of the BLR Technology craps software, is operating as a rogue.

Kind regards,

Eliot

So the case of it right now is that BLR is the first of what you personally ever suspected and detected as a reactive cheating algorithym? Thank you.

** I apologize; but is the question still viable?

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

{Taken from an email addressed to Mr. Jacobson}.

It is highly inappropriate to post private emails without the explicit permission of the other party. I ask that you remove your post immediately, if possible, or that you request the moderators here remove it. After you've removed your post, if you would like to ask me a question, I will consider if it is something I can appropriately answer.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

So the case of it right now is that BLR is the first of what you personally ever suspected and detected as a reactive cheating algorithym?

The important point is how easy it was to detect this rogue program by simple statistical tests. Moreover, because the user clempops4 had the foresight to video his play and post it on YouTube, there was no need for log files and no way for the software vendor to "flip the switch" -- the facts obtainable from the videos spoke for themselves. Michael Shackleford's article about the game on his web site has a lot of good detail about the process of conducting an audit.

Beyond that, every case I know of where a software vendor knowingly created and licensed rogue games is publicly referenced through the rogue pit on this site.

 

[4 of a kind]

In this case we see a software provider as far as I could tell being over zealous with their rigged software. It also is surprising that if rigged software is so easy to detect as many seem to believe, how did this software provider last so long with a blatantly detectable program?

How could the players ever be confident that even the bigger platforms that are not so zealous (or as greedy) and are smart enough to only program the software to reflect a 5% additional house edge in table games, that they too would be detected? Like it was said over at the WOV website that it would have been smarter to program the software just to "fleece the sheep, not slaughter it".

Even if a player was playing a video poker game with an expected 98.6% rtp, retaining long term data with results of 94.6% rtp, it certainly would be written off as nothing more then bad luck. Even just consistent results of only 1 or 2 percent lower rtp’s would be written off as bad luck, but could mean millions and millions of additional income for the casinos, and those results even if consistent could never hold enough water to confirm fraud.

The only way to know for sure would be for every cent that entered the game to be recorded over time and then analyzed by a confirmed honest regulator. This is not now or ever has as far as I know being applied as confirmed fact for online casinos.

 

[boymimbo]

True That

Well, exactly. For example, both the Wizard and TEliot both have "certified" 5 dimes Bonus Casino and did some statistical analysis on a number of games. In BLR craps, it was so obvious that the Wizard was able to complete his test after only 328 trials, and Teliot did a test over 74 trials (playing $7, the pass and placing all the numbers) to realize beyond a doubt that the software was completely rigged. It was alot easier to see a 46% HA vs a 1.4% one, after all.

Now, when you get into the 5% range, it becomes a lot more difficult to prove, and you have a ton of more trials, on the order of 10,000 or so, to complete. Take a game like craps and set it to a 5% HA. The probability of success on the pass line is .493. The odds of having 4750 or less successes in 10,000 rolls is only .000164539. It's not incomprehensible.

So I don't even think a 5% HA is really realistically detectable, and this is where the online, unregulated casino, has you by the balls.

 

[Jufo]

How could the players ever be confident that even the bigger platforms that are not so zealous (or as greedy) and are smart enough to only program the software to reflect a 5% additional house edge in table games, that they too would be detected? Like it was said over at the WOV website that it would have been smarter to program the software just to "fleece the sheep, not slaughter it".

[...]

The only way to know for sure would be for every cent that entered the game to be recorded over time and then analyzed by a confirmed honest regulator. This is not now or ever has as far as I know being applied as confirmed fact for online casinos.

I am happy that you brought this up, because I have actually gone through a case like you described, where I constantly ran around 5% below expected long-term RTP for a duration of 1.5 years, 20 000 hands in total played and 350 000€ in total wagered on low-variance games (mostly Blackjack). I recorded every hand and my losses over time were this:



The black curve at the top is the expected return at any given point, around which the actual return curve (blue) should fluctuate. The end result, which includes every single wager made at this casino from the moment of registering an account, suggests a roughly 1 in 300 000 chance for a loss rate this deep across my 1.5 years of play.

Is this enough to prove rigged software here? Probably not, but the result is severe enough that I will publish the results in detail at some point in the future once I have organized the data in full, so that it is ready to be published. This also includes the responses from the software provider in an attempt to discredit my results with false mathematics, and stating that my results are "compeletely normal". Oh, and this is one of the major casino softwares with high reputation.

 

[4 of a kind]

I truly believe that most members here are predominantly slot players accustomed to and expect drastic swings in RTP’s per session. Slot players could have losing sessions for 11 months in a row, but with the simple click of the mouse at the right time could turn their losing year into a winning one simply by hitting a Jackpot.

A hard core blackjack or video poker player, playing perfect strategy expecting a return of 98.85 on BJ, and anywhere from 96 to 98+ on video poker perfect play, and suffering 11 months of losing sessions can’t overcome their losses or get their RTP back to expected with a Royal Flush or a Black Jack.

With that being said, regardless how lucky any one player might be, the law of gambling against a built in house edge dictates that if that lucky player keeps playing he or she too will eventually become just another losing gambler statistic. No arguments there…

Table players of Baccarat, Black Jack, Craps, Video Poker, and others expect a longer life for their money when compared to slot players and certainly could never expect a life changing win from any one session. This is why I believe most slot players don’t understand how important it is to be certain that when playing one of these table games that they are programmed exactly to the specified return as advertised.

If I’m playing a Video Poker machine expecting 98% RTP and actually am only getting a 93% RTP, I would be better off playing a slot machine where I would at least have a chance of hitting a massive Jackpot.

I’m looking forward to Jufos spread sheet, but would recommend he take those statistics to the Wizard. That site is loaded with endless mathematicians with doctrine degrees, and endless computer software engineers of assorted types. Eliot Jacobson a member here being one of them. I must also admit that I feel very under educated when I participate in threads there.

I also feel cheated after 10 years of playing video poker online, with my last two years of such ridiculous outcomes convincing me of foul play forcing me to quit and pursue the facts. Unfortunately, I could only trust my experiences as being fact, since I only kept financial records, not game records.

BLR being exposed helps enforce my convictions, but I want more. At least their exposure proves that even when someone owns a money printing press, they still want more even faster then the machine could print, and are willing to speed it up till it breaks down.

For all the people that insist there is no reason for any online casino to ever cheat, you stand corrected. Without regulation and enforcement there could be no guarantees, regardless what anyone thinks or who says otherwise.

 

[Jufo]

Table players of Baccarat, Black Jack, Craps, Video Poker, and others expect a longer life for their money when compared to slot players and certainly could never expect a life changing win from any one session. This is why I believe most slot players don’t understand how important it is to be certain that when playing one of these table games that they are programmed exactly to the specified return as advertised.

Yes very well put. With table games the true RTP is crucial because low variance dictates that you can only swing up or down so much with close to 1:1 payouts.

I’m looking forward to Jufos spread sheet, but would recommend he take those statistics to the Wizard. That site is loaded with endless mathematicians with doctrine degrees, and endless computer software engineers of assorted types. Eliot Jacobson a member here being one of them. I must also admit that I feel very under educated when I participate in threads there.

Yes that's a good idea. I was very impressed with how much crucial input they gave with the BLR software incident and it also motivated me to get back to this unresolved incident of mine. Unfortunately in my case, I don't have videotaped footage across my 20,000 transactions and 1.5 years of play (would anyone even have the patience to watch them all through) so I have to rely on play logs only, and my case is much messier in every other aspect as well, so I'd need to construct a clear case with only key facts and then give it them to digest.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

I am happy that you brought this up, because I have actually gone through a case like you described, where I constantly ran around 5% below expected long-term RTP for a duration of 1.5 years, 20 000 hands in total played and 350 000€ in total wagered on low-variance games (mostly Blackjack).

I've seen this before. What you should look at is the distribution of individual cards for your hands. What is the frequency of each card by rank out of all the hands you were dealt? How does this compare to the dealer's distribution? See if you are playing with a "short deck."

If you need any help and don't mind disclosing personal information to me, please feel free to contact me.

 

[Jufo]

I've seen this before. What you should look at is the distribution of individual cards for your hands. What is the frequency of each card by rank out of all the hands you were dealt? How does this compare to the dealer's distribution? See if you are playing with a "short deck."

If you need any help and don't mind disclosing personal information to me, please feel free to contact me.

Hi, I already conducted a battery of statistical tests to the data, including those you mentioned. I didn't find anything special and didn't get any specific direction as to what to focus on. For different tests I obtained p-values around 0.01 ... 0.05 range which would still classify as bad luck and are in line with my loss rate. That being said I only did the statistical tests to a sample data of size of ~1000 hands. The reason is that it was extremely time-consuming to manually write all the hands to Excel so even adding 1000 hands took forever. I might go back to look if there is a way to incorporate a larger number of hand details to Excel.

Thanks for the offer to help, it might be turn out very useful. I don't mind disclosing personal details but I still have to update my analysis a bit so that it is organized enough for others to review.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

That being said I only did the statistical tests to a sample data of size of ~1000 hands.

You can request your complete log files from the casino vendor, the logs should come as CSV files.

 

[Jufo]

You can request your complete log files from the casino vendor, the logs should come as CSV files.

I have done that too, but they only sent me data that doesn't show hand contents, only sessions played. They said "unable to assist" when I asked the data in more detailed format.

 

[mightymaron]

Well, exactly. For example, both the Wizard and TEliot both have "certified" 5 dimes Bonus Casino and did some statistical analysis on a number of games. In BLR craps, it was so obvious that the Wizard was able to complete his test after only 328 trials, and Teliot did a test over 74 trials (playing $7, the pass and placing all the numbers) to realize beyond a doubt that the software was completely rigged. It was alot easier to see a 46% HA vs a 1.4% one, after all.

Now, when you get into the 5% range, it becomes a lot more difficult to prove, and you have a ton of more trials, on the order of 10,000 or so, to complete. Take a game like craps and set it to a 5% HA. The probability of success on the pass line is .493. The odds of having 4750 or less successes in 10,000 rolls is only .000164539. It's not incomprehensible.

So I don't even think a 5% HA is really realistically detectable, and this is where the online, unregulated casino, has you by the balls.

I had a session in the cashback casino using BLR craps software where I only played no pass....Here is the thread posted in August

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I got hit and hit hard by this only playing no pass. The wizard emailed 5dimes and got his money back. I played the same game, in the same casino at the same place 5dimes. I had a documented session and a number for the losses. I got a two line email saying the BLR software was pulled. No lossback for me...vexing

 

[Zoozie]

Multiple RNG calls?

There has been several cases of rigged software in the past. But I especially remember one case that seems similar to this one.
It was covered by WoO as well and is probably 8 or more years ago. The game in question was blackjack and after
various statistically analysis it was concluded that data was fitting perfectly to the having the dealer dealing
a second card in case he busted. And than accepting the fate of the second card no matter what. When cheating this way, there is no way the player can exploit it of course.

The result is a house edge less than the expected house edge for any bet. Also this is the most easy way to cheat, simply just
invoke the RNG again if you do not like the result. Maybe it can be tested if this hypothesis is consistent with the data? Or maybe even a third RNG call.

Also Eliot Jacobson experienced a huge lag when he was forcing the cheating software to get an improbably event and having multiple RNG calls
can explain this since RNG calls will give delays, while normal server-calculations are so fast they can not be responsible for any lag.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

There has been several cases of rigged software in the past. But I especially remember one case that seems similar to this one. It was covered by WoO as well and is probably 8 or more years ago. The game in question was blackjack and after various statistically analysis it was concluded that data was fitting perfectly to the having the dealer dealing a second card in case he busted. And than accepting the fate of the second card no matter what. When cheating this way, there is no way the player can exploit it of course.

The method of cheating above is readily detectible by simple audits of the distribution of dealer cards. Any audit will detect this.

There is another method of cheating in online blackjack that doesn't require modifying the code in a clever way or multiple RNG calls, and is tougher to detect by an audit. Namely, whatever hand the dealer is dealt, flip the cards around so that the high card is the card the player sees. Then the player will hit a lot more often, busting, in situations when he might ordinarily stand by seeing a 2-6 for the dealer. The cards the player and dealer receive will not be modified from those originally dealt making it look statistically normal to the casual auditor. The dealer's cards are just flipped sometimes. You don't need to do this very often and it will have a significant effect. The statistical test that can detect this is a chi-squared test on the distribution of dealer up-cards. This is a test I routinely perform when I do my audits, but I am not sure about other auditors.

This method of cheating (flipping the cards) is in addition to the method Michael Shackleford identified above, as well as cheating by dealing to the player from a short-deck. None of these three methods require messing with the RNG or clever coding. However, no method of cheating the player will be statistically undetectable. Some are harder to identify than others, but they all leave their own statistical fingerprint.

 

[4 of a kind]

I find this thread confirming in house cheating even more interesting that it went completely ignored (or rather not one posted opinion) from all the members that insisted for years that there could never be a logical reason for an operator to cheat; or would possibly run the risk of killing the goose that’s laying golden eggs. Why are there no Advocates and Affiliates who are getting fat from online gaming found expressing any opinions in this thread or else where? Bryan at least rogued the software provider, but are others even willing to warn players? Where are the likes of Dogboy and others that are always trying to convince everyone else that their just unlucky?

Throughout this thread it’s confirmed from software engineers that the software could be altered by installing hard coded rogue logic built into it, RNG’s could be installed improper resulting in not performing randomly, outcomes being weighted one way or the other, BJ games able to flip down cards and draw seconds if needed. This is only what was reveled in this thread.

Like Eliot mentioned that an auditor could detect some of these cheating methods if they even know to look for them in the first place.

Converting games that require human interaction to virtual interaction could only respond to what was programmed into it.

Another thing I find interesting is when visiting and reading threads at the Wizard of Odds / Vegas, how endlessly the mathematicians and computer engineers trash online gaming, yet, the site promotes only one online casino which is Bodog. Just the fact that Bodog is willing to take illegal money transactions from the USA speaks volumes in itself about the promoter. If this same issue was casting doubts upon RTG software, one would have to wonder if M.S. (WOO) would have pursed the issue with the same vigor.

Even if a player recorded 5 million hands of BJ or Video Poker and fell 5% below expected RTP it would still be written off as just bad luck and expected variance without knowing every single bet made against the same game during that same time. Don’t think all computer software engineers are as stupid as BLR. The bigger online software providers are smart enough to provide quicker profits for the owners while completely avoiding issues like this one simply because they are smart enough and can with no regulation or enforcement.

Regardless, this thread should cast enough doubt for any online table player to run for the hills and bury their money where no online casino could find it until confirmed regulation and enforcement make an appearance.

One could only wonder why such a huge multi-billion industry can go on operating un-regulated like this for well over a decade.

 

[GrandMaster]

Even if a player recorded 5 million hands of BJ or Video Poker and fell 5% below expected RTP it would still be written off as just bad luck and expected variance without knowing every single bet made against the same game during that same time. Don’t think all computer software engineers are as stupid as BLR. The bigger online software providers are smart enough to provide quicker profits for the owners while completely avoiding issues like this one simply because they are smart enough and can with no regulation or enforcement.

5% would definitely be noticeable in 10000 hands. See

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for some example how the analysis is done.

If a casino cheats systematically, it cannot be hidden, since the payout will be lower than expected. The number of games needed to collect sufficient level of evidence depends on the level of cheating, but it can be done. There will also be other evidence, such as the distribution of cards will deviate from the expected.

 

[silcnlayc]

I find this thread confirming in house cheating even more interesting that it went completely ignored (or rather not one posted opinion) from all the members that insisted for years that there could never be a logical reason for an operator to cheat; or would possibly run the risk of killing the goose that’s laying golden eggs. Why are there no Advocates and Affiliates who are getting fat from online gaming found expressing any opinions in this thread or else where? Bryan at least rogued the software provider, but are others even willing to warn players? Where are the likes of Dogboy and others that are always trying to convince everyone else that their just unlucky?

I guess the reason why I stopped trying to give my experiences of the changes happening is because it seemed like a useless proposition against the said issues you stated....I was tired of being asked to "prove" things that I knew were true but could not physically prove. I got tired of defending myself against the same people you are asking where they are at, now, that the proof is being shown that things can and ARE being manipulated, as I stated they were happening behind the scenes (really got beat up for that) ...I was accused of chasing off dogboy in another thread here : https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...arned-can-be-controlled-in-the-backend.36435/ by my questions and my experiences that did not match his accounting of games which I challenged and he did end up disappearing for quite a long time after that....so...there you go..

Many will still defend and state "all is well" even though things haven't been for a few years now..I will take personal experience over anothers desire to imagine all is fair and right with the casinos (for the USA promoters). To me, experiencing the changes speaks more volumes than the demand for the illusive "proof" unlike here where you have physical proof that you can sink your teeth into.

I just played at my last RTG I have installed and finally requested it closed. Why? I am one to be fair and give others a fair shake in showing me that things are not as bad as I feel they are. well...this last RTG has failed also, after months of playing. (I always ask myself, could I be wrong?) hence the coninuous playing to the end for fairness....

Regardless, this thread should cast enough doubt for any online table player to run for the hills and bury their money where no online casino could find it until confirmed regulation and enforcement make an appearance.

I agree . So I now have only fun casinos loaded. USA players really need to sit back and wait till the tide turns and casinos are made to be held accountable. The risk is too much and the money drain is unending as proven to me once again today.

 

[Nifty29]

I guess the reason why I stopped trying to give my experiences of the changes happening is because it seemed like a useless proposition against the said issues you stated....I was tired of being asked to "prove" things that I knew were true but could not physically prove. I got tired of defending myself against the same people you are asking where they are at, now, that the proof is being shown that things can and ARE being manipulated, as I stated they were happening behind the scenes (really got beat up for that) ...I was accused of chasing off dogboy in another thread here : https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...arned-can-be-controlled-in-the-backend.36435/ by my questions and my experiences that did not match his accounting of games which I challenged and he did end up disappearing for quite a long time after that....so...there you go..

Many will still defend and state "all is well" even though things haven't been for a few years now..I will take personal experience over anothers desire to imagine all is fair and right with the casinos (for the USA promoters). To me, experiencing the changes speaks more volumes than the demand for the illusive "proof" unlike here where you have physical proof that you can sink your teeth into.

I just played at my last RTG I have installed and finally

requested it closed. Why? I am one to be fair and give others a fair shake in showing me that things are not as bad as I feel they are. well...this last RTG has failed also, after months of playing. (I always ask myself, could I be wrong?) hence the coninuous playing to the end for fairness....

I agree . So I now have only fun casinos loaded. USA players really need to sit back and wait till the tide turns and casinos are made to be held accountable. The risk is too much and the money drain is unending as proven to me once again today.

Sorry, but the fact you have still been playing shows that you don't even believe your own conspiracies. You have held the "all casinos cheat/lower payouts secretly" POV for years and during that time you still played.....it just confirms in my mind that the "avid conspiracy theorists" such as yourself are actually just using such theories as a crutch to lean on when you lose. You say "RTG have definitely lowered their payouts over the past few years".....so where is your spreadsheet showing your deposits, bets, bonuses and withdrawals? You cannot make accusations of cheating/dishonesty without evidence - its not right and not fair. I'm.certain if someone posted here that "silcnlayc is a tax cheat" with no evidence besides "oh its just a feeling I get" you would be going ballistic and demanding evidence or an apology. How does this not apply to everyone else? You think its OK to accuse operators of cheating without a scrap of proof.

I tell you now, if you presented your stats from the past few years showing just how much worse things have become, I would seriously consider that you were on to something and would support you in your cause. I detest cheating and dishonesty, but I also believe that if one is going to make serious accusations, one must be prepared to offer hard evidence, or be prepared to have their opinions seriously questioned and, quite possibly, be discounted as just another gambler blaming the casinos for their losses.

I'll give 4OAK one thing.....he might push his agenda in just about every post, but at least he stopped playing (as far as we know) when he thought something wasn't right. He has the courage of his convictions. No hard evidence, so I don't give his views much credibility for that reason, but at least I know he really believes what he believes. Of course, the problem is that not playing for years puts one out of the loop so to speak, so things may well be different now and it may well just have been a bad streak for him.

A few wise heads have stated here that cheating software becomes pretty obvious fairly quickly, and will always be caught by rigorous testing regimes. AFAIK nobody has produced testing of RTG, MG, Playtech that suggests anything untoward is going on at all. I would bet London to a brick that, if these operators were taking us all for a ride, WoO and others would have called them out long ago.

The reason dogboy hardly posts now is that the same members were constantly trying to discredit him as being "in on the conspiracy" and somehow sent here by RTG to hoodwink all of us in to believing everything is fair. Members were questioning his integrity and even his knowledge (even though he is involved in the testing etc of the game). It didnt matter what he tried to say, it would always be turned back on him with "yes well you would say that" and "i'd expect that from a company man". The conspiracy theorists don't want to hear facts that don't fit, so they do everything possible to demean the person presenting them.

I wouldn't hang around under those conditions either.

 

[4 of a kind]

5% would definitely be noticeable in 10000 hands. See

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for some example how the analysis is done.

If a casino cheats systematically, it cannot be hidden, since the payout will be lower than expected. The number of games needed to collect sufficient level of evidence depends on the level of cheating, but it can be done. There will also be other evidence, such as the distribution of cards will deviate from the expected.

BLR has been around since 1998, how long do you think they were operating their craps game with a 46% HA (house advantage) before getting caught? Who has been auditing their software all this time? That answer is below off of the 5 Dimes web site:


Check out some examples of the payout difference between traditional casino games and the games found at our Bonus Casino. To ensure the fairness of all games, the 5Dimes Bonus Casino has been audited by two separate third party companies. The 5Dimes Bonus Casino has received the Certified Fair Gambling’s RTP Certification. Below are the payout percentages that were obtained from the Certified Fair Gambling’s fairness audit that was conducted on each of the Bonus Casino games.
Certified Fair Gambling

Blackjack: 98.802%
Table Games: 98.776%
Slots: 96.658%
Video Poker: 98.853%
Other: 96.968%
All Games: 98.729%

The Bonus Casino has also been audited by another third party to ensure statistical fairness. To get an even greater understanding, read an independent audit of our Bonus Casino software.

 

[silcnlayc]

Sorry, but the fact you have still been playing shows that you don't even believe your own conspiracies. You have held the "all casinos cheat/lower payouts secretly" POV for years and during that time you still played.....it just confirms in my mind that the "avid conspiracy theorists" such as yourself are actually just using such theories as a crutch to lean on when you lose. You say "RTG have definitely lowered their payouts over the past few years".....so where is your spreadsheet showing your deposits, bets, bonuses and withdrawals? You cannot make accusations of cheating/dishonesty without evidence - its not right and not fair. I'm.certain if someone posted here that "silcnlayc is a tax cheat" with no evidence besides "oh its just a feeling I get" you would be going ballistic and demanding evidence or an apology. How does this not apply to everyone else? You think its OK to accuse operators of cheating without a scrap of proof.

I tell you now, if you presented your stats from the past few years showing just how much worse things have become, I would seriously consider that you were on to something and would support you in your cause. I detest cheating and dishonesty, but I also believe that if one is going to make serious accusations, one must be prepared to offer hard evidence, or be prepared to have their opinions seriously questioned and, quite possibly, be discounted as just another gambler blaming the casinos for their losses.

I'll give 4OAK one thing.....he might push his agenda in just about every post, but at least he stopped playing (as far as we know) when he thought something wasn't right. He has the courage of his convictions. No hard evidence, so I don't give his views much credibility for that reason, but at least I know he really believes what he believes. Of course, the problem is that not playing for years puts one out of the loop so to speak, so things may well be different now and it may well just have been a bad streak for him.

A few wise heads have stated here that cheating software becomes pretty obvious fairly quickly, and will always be caught by rigorous testing regimes. AFAIK nobody has produced testing of RTG, MG, Playtech that suggests anything untoward is going on at all. I would bet London to a brick that, if these operators were taking us all for a ride, WoO and others would have called them out long ago.

The reason dogboy hardly posts now is that the same members were constantly trying to discredit him as being "in on the conspiracy" and somehow sent here by RTG to hoodwink all of us in to believing everything is fair. Members were questioning his integrity and even his knowledge (even though he is involved in the testing etc of the game). It didnt matter what he tried to say, it would always be turned back on him with "yes well you would say that" and "i'd expect that from a company man". The conspiracy theorists don't want to hear facts that don't fit, so they do everything possible to demean the person presenting them.

I wouldn't hang around under those conditions either.

Nifty, please take a breath...and just breaaath~~~~~ The word conspiracy is always the word for you..against anyone that does not agree with you or your ideals.....that is ok..you can own it....I myself, take experiences over "blind faith" any day so if you like to call it a conspirators thoughts...so be it...you own the word...not my thoughts...or experiences...have a nice nite...and just breath~~~~~

.

 

[4 of a kind]

A few wise heads have stated here that cheating software becomes pretty obvious fairly quickly, and will always be caught by rigorous testing regimes.

Many of the technicians and mathematicians over at the Wizard of Oz, also confirm that finding a consistent negative discrepancy of 3 to 5 percentages would not be enough grounds to declare foul play. Pigs like BLR end up getting slaughtered. Yet, you would have to agree that it would be simple for software providers to play around with a percentage point or two or three or four, and would go undetected, but would equate to millions if not billions considering the volume over time into the casinos and software coffers.

I believe the software providers since they don't have to answer to regulators would have no problem playing these percentage games with nothing more then a simple download. They probably don't even tell the owners who purchase their software. The more profits they provide for owners the better their profit records become when showcasing their software to potential new owners. Many providers also lease their software out with an agreed upon revenue share.

Without regulation and enforcement no one could declare the games are 100% fair, and without proof no one could declare the games are gaffed.

Bottom line if you think you're not getting a 100% fair game, go with your instincts. I gave it two years of absurd results and compulsive loses trying to recover my expected RTP with video poker, before realizing my initial instinct two years earlier was correct. This was after 8 happy years of playing online with no complaints about anything what so ever.

I'm also convinced that slot players see things differently. If a slot player hits a Jackpot and was playing on a machine with an 87% RTP, try convincing this player that the machines are set lower then advertised. Experienced table players see things a completely different way when compared to the views of slot players.

 

[4 of a kind]

Interesting post over at WOV, written by a poster named FleaStiff in relation to this discussion:

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[Nifty29]

Nifty, please take a breath...and just breaaath~~~~~ The word conspiracy is always the word for you..against anyone that does not agree with you or your ideals.....that is ok..you can own it....I myself, take experiences over "blind faith" any day so if you like to call it a conspirators thoughts...so be it...you own the word...not my thoughts...or experiences...have a nice nite...and just breath~~~~~

.

Nice deflection.

Let's just forget the word "conspiracy" and replace it with a word/words of your own choice (make sure you own them though).

Now you can address the points I made without worrying about semantics. If you don't have an answer for my arguments, that's totally cool. I would respect you more if you just said that rather than pick out one word and give me respiratory instructions.