Political correctness wins again - Women allowed in combat

[Balthazar]

WASHINGTON (AP) — Senior defense officials say Pentagon chief Leon Panetta is removing the military's ban on women serving in combat, opening hundreds of thousands of front-line positions and potentially elite commando jobs after more than a decade at war.

The groundbreaking move recommended by the Joint Chiefs of Staff overturns a 1994 rule prohibiting women from being assigned to smaller ground combat units.

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What if your 6'3 230lbs injured ass needs to be carried out of the danger zone but the only person that could have done it has been replaced with a 130lbs female that physically can't? Would you still like the idea?

I guess they could form female-only units but they would be at disadvantage at various crucial things, such as hand to hand combat.

I remember reading an article a while ago about female firefighters. For their exam, they had to run with a 50lbs heavy bag on their back, as opposed to men that had to do the same thing with a 100lbs bag. I couldn't believe my eyes. Extreme stupidity.

 

[ksb11]

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What if your 6'3 230lbs injured ass needs to be carried out of the danger zone but the only person that could have done it has been replaced with a 130lbs female that physically can't? Would you still like the idea?

I guess they could form female-only units but they would be at disadvantage at various crucial things, such as hand to hand combat.

I remember reading an article a while ago about female firefighters. For their exam, they had to run with a 50lbs heavy bag on their back, as opposed to men that had to do the same thing with a 100lbs bag. I couldn't believe my eyes. Extreme stupidity.

Yea, like the story that broke last week I think it was, where a man sued his wife because he thought he should be the one who did the breastfeeding for their new born baby! The Judge threw the case out because he thought it was ridiculous and then got his title stripped because he didn't take the case seriously.

 

[maxd]

No offense guys but I find your attitudes here depressingly sexist. Think back a little: there were supposedly "reasons" why women shouldn't drive. Seems to have worked out okay. There were "reasons" why women shouldn't be cops, or CEOs, or fly, or use flashlights or lace-up shoes, blah blah blah. All of it bunk.

A bad attitude toward women -- or any group of people who isn't you -- is just that, a bad attitude. Find someone else to pick on. Or better yet, don't pick on anyone though human nature being what it is that may be too much to ask.

 

[Simmo!]

I can exactly see where Balthazar is coming from here - it's practicality, not sex that's the issue here.

I think they are right to give the opportunity to women however the qualification criteria should be identical. It's just a fact that women and men are, generally speaking, built differently. So irrespective of sex, simply let anyone do any job they are proven capable of but not a job where they aren't simply to be politically correct.

Simples really.

PS. Reminds me of Michelle Wie, the lady golfer who joined the men's tour recently. Quite a few golfers showed their sexist side, others welcomed her but the bottom line was she didn't have the strength required to compete on the same level. So you either revert back to two disciplines or you dilute one to accommodate everyone and run the risk of marginalising the sport.

 

[The Dude]

I served with combat units for 11 years (combat engineers/paratroopers), and with all due respect to women, there is no way it would work. Even if they met the same physical requirements, (which few can do) there are a number of other issues as well. Combat troops shit, shower, and shave together. You live in the dirt and mud for weeks on end sometimes - especially in jungle warfare situations. It's grueling, you're lugging around on average about a hundred pounds worth of gear, you have to move fast - you lack sleep, personal hygiene suffers, and women just couldn't cut it.

I was a Drill Sergeant for my last six months of duty, and I was training females. The female P.T. test (physical training) required women to do a minimum of 18 pushups to pass. Males had to do a minimum of 40. So right there it illustrates that fact that women are built differently; they lack the upper body strength. No fault to them, that's just the way it is. I trained a few hundred before leaving, and I can't remember any of the women soldiers going beyond maybe 30 pushups. They just couldn't do it.

And these are minimum standards. If you are in the paratroopers/special forces/rangers, the requirements are higher. And if you are only doing the minimum, you're barely meeting the standards. Some units require more out of you - I don't see women making it. Maybe one out of a hundred, but then why bother?

Obviously, somebody has been watching too many gung-ho Hollywood films that portray women as toughies and bad-asses. They aren't. They can't fight. These politicians probably never served in a combat unit - in combat, and it's always pissed me off that it's these types that make these decisions. But why should I care? I've already served my time.

 

[just play]

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What if your 6'3 230lbs injured ass needs to be carried out of the danger zone but the only person that could have done it has been replaced with a 130lbs female that physically can't? Would you still like the idea?

Isn't there 130lb males?

I trained a few hundred before leaving, and I can't remember any of the women soldiers going beyond maybe 30 pushups. They just couldn't do it.

They couldn't do 30 pushups?

In defense of women, aren't there some "buff" women that join the miliatary? You guys make it seem like barbie dolls join.

 

[dunover]

The way I see it, the danger lies when stupidity and PC gets ahead of practicality as a previous post suggests.
I once worked in a factory environment. Under equal pay legislation, women got the same pay. Fair enough. OH! There's a delivery. "Dave/Steve/Paul/Mike, would one of you carry those heavy boxes in for us please?"
NEVER "Sally/Rachel/Sue/Tracy, would you fetch that delivery in please?"

If I was a PC nutcase I could've made a formal complaint of sex-discrimination, as we were being picked on to do heavy lifting. But no, being a practical human being, I just accept that's the way we are, and always will be. No amount of cretinous judgements and legislation will stop that.

Perhaps we should've been paid a few pounds more than women. Like buying a car in the UK with air-conditioning - you pay extra for it, don't use it that often but it's there when you need it.

These conflicts come with the way industrial society is moving. Workplaces were hugely male environments at one time, and have traditions rooted there. In recent decades, the increase in working women has resulted in new male/female situations arising. Some are dealt with intelligently, some with illogical stupidity.

The clever way would be to test ALL applicants in the infantry equally. Line up the recruits, get the 230lb man out, and tell the lot of them they've gotta run 100 yards in 25 secs with him over their shoulders. This would weed almost all female recruits out there and then, but not based on sex, simply performance. And some of the men.

Then no 'sex discrimination' accusations. All men and women were given the SAME test, and passed or failed it.

The clever bit here is that some failed recruit of female gender would probably sue for discrimination in that the test was 'unfair in that women can't reasonably be expected to physically pass it' - ER... yes hunny, we tried to tell everyone that in the first place, so you DO accept males and females are different then! Case dismissed.

 

[maxd]

Well colour me surprised. I was under the impression that women were serving in the armed services of a good many countries. See

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for an interesting read on the subject.

That said I don't know shit about the military and am more than happy to respect and defer to the experience of those who do.

On the other hand there are some seriously entrenched sexist attitudes out there and that basically sucks.

 

[dionysus]

Personally, I see ZERO reason why women can't serve.
I agree, that, no matter how you cut it, quite simply, women will never have the strength or muscle ability of a man. That's not sexist, that's just design. Are there some women stronger than some men? Of course. Are there tough as nails women and weaker men? Sure. About the showering and roughing it? So what, some men can't cut it, some women can't cut it..

Make ONE standard. whomever so passes it, get its, easy peasey. No special interests, no special terms, no lesser standards. One test, you pass, you serve.

 

[dunover]

Personally, I see ZERO reason why women can't serve.
I agree, that, no matter how you cut it, quite simply, women will never have the strength or muscle ability of a man. That's not sexist, that's just design. Are there some women stronger than some men? Of course. Are there tough as nails women and weaker men? Sure. About the showering and roughing it? So what, some men can't cut it, some women can't cut it..

Make ONE standard. whomever so passes it, get its, easy peasey. No special interests, no special terms, no lesser standards. One test, you pass, you serve.

Yep. That's what I just said.

 

[dionysus]

Ok?
It can't be said twice? I was stating my opinion

 

[dunover]

Yes, of course - the way type often seems different to the spoken word. I was acknowledging and welcoming the agreement in your post. Wasn't meant to sound curt, although re-reading it it does. Sorry.

 

[dionysus]

No worries
Wouldn't surprise me to see twenty pages of one side or the other

 

[ksb11]

No offense guys but I find your attitudes here depressingly sexist. Think back a little: there were supposedly "reasons" why women shouldn't drive. Seems to have worked out okay. There were "reasons" why women shouldn't be cops, or CEOs, or fly, or use flashlights or lace-up shoes, blah blah blah. All of it bunk.

A bad attitude toward women -- or any group of people who isn't you -- is just that, a bad attitude. Find someone else to pick on. Or better yet, don't pick on anyone though human nature being what it is that may be too much to ask.

It seems to me, that if a certain group of people (in this case women firefighters) get to use 50 lb bags and the men have to lift 100 lb bags the people giving the test are the ones being sexist

 

[Seventh777]

I wonder what women soldiers will have on the end of their rifles instead of bayonets? .

Imagine the scene.......

Captain Planet - "Where the hell were you when we stormed that hill corporal Jones, damn woman, we needed all the help we could get?".

Corporal Jones - "Sorry sir, there were problems".

Captain Planet - "Which were?".

Corporal Jones - "Well sir, first I broke a nail, then - my make up, no way on earth i'm gonna let the enemy see me looking like this".

Corporal Jones - "And besides - this damned uniform makes my butt look big".

Captain Planet - "Sigh".

Corporal Jones - "If we were to do it again tomorrow sir I will be more than ready".

Captain Planet - "How so?".

Corporal Jones - "PMT / PMS sir".

Captain Planet - "There we go, back in line soldier".

Captain Planet murmurs to himself..... 'Nothing wrong with that butt at all'.

 

[dunover]

I heard some shocking news on the radio today.

Apparently 25% of women have been treated for some kind of mental illness.

THAT MEANS THAT 75 % OF THEM ARE RUNNING AROUND UNDIAGNOSED!

 

[Balthazar]

Isn't there 130lb males?

Yes, but they have to pass the exact same physical tests as the 200lb ones.

Personally, I see ZERO reason why women can't serve.

Neither do I. They already serve, just not in combat (until now, that is).

 

[maxd]

I wonder what women soldiers will have on the end of their rifles instead of bayonets? . ...

Attach Removed (Old not found) Like I said, there are some seriously entrenched sexist attitudes out there and that basically sucks.

 

[GOCC]

A friend of mine lives in Hereford where the SAS are based.

Locals know who the SAS are and whos whos when you are in the pub. He told me about 2 years ago a woman had been accepted into the regiment. He asked one of the boys who he knew and he said that she had to do EXACTLY the same training and selection process as the men.

Good luck to them if you ask me.

And a woman cant do 30 push ups? My wife is 9s (126lb) and she can do 30 push ups without fail.

 

[The Dude]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not sexist, I'm just speaking from experience. But if the standards are not dumbed down, she can hang like the rest, and she doesn't mind showering or taking a dump in front of her fellow squad members, then so be it. Like I said, it's not for me to decide. I just don't like the way politics is using this as a "hey, I'm for equality" card. We're aren't talking about allowing them to play on the NHL - these decisions can affect life and death.

But if it works in "Aliens" or "Star Trek", I'm sure it'll work in real life.

 

[just play]

And a woman cant do 30 push ups? My wife is 9s (126lb) and she can do 30 push ups without fail.

My husband and I did a test yesterday. We are both overweight according to height and gender, and are not fit (going to gym, using weights, etc..)

I did more pushups than him. I laughed and said are you fucking with me? He said "no, I could never do many pushups, even when I was young and in great shape."

I do however agree if the woman can do the same as the man, what's the problem? I don't like that the woman gets to do "less" than a man in the military.

 

[dionysus]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not sexist, I'm just speaking from experience. But if the standards are not dumbed down, she can hang like the rest, and she doesn't mind showering or taking a dump in front of her fellow squad members, then so be it. Like I said, it's not for me to decide. I just don't like the way politics is using this as a "hey, I'm for equality" card. We're aren't talking about allowing them to play on the NHL - these decisions can affect life and death.

But if it works in "Aliens" or "Star Trek", I'm sure it'll work in real life.

Lol, a man will piss on any wall after the bar. But you might be surprised by how many women stop and squat in the bushes too. Theyarent all flowers and rainbows.
And to be fair, while all real women arent Ripley (aliens) all men aren't GI Joe or Shwarzenegger in Commando either. The Hollywood comparison cuts both ways.

 

[brutaldeluxe]

What is with this equality nonsense ? Men and women are different, get over it.
Girls have to be allowed in the boy scouts, boys have to be allowed in the girl guides.
Hey I'm not allowed in the female changing rooms, that's not equality either !

Also as already mentioned, when your life might be in the hands of your fellow soliders I would want
to know that the people watching my back are trained to the highest standard. Not a lower standard
merely because they are female.