PLAYTECH CASINOS TAKE 5000$ from me

[mgibson99]

My strategy was doubling any winning hand until 1000+ units in my account. And i only reached that target in three cases- which made my overall results almost even.

Based on the amount of your 3 wins and 22 losses, and assuming that you deposited the same initial amount into each casino, your starting bankroll was $5500 and your initial deposit was $220 at each casino.

Honestly, I still struggle to see this as anything other than bonus chasing, but regardless, the lesson to be learned here is that depositing $220 in 25 different casinos in a short amount of time, and employing a "double up" betting strategy, is going to send red "bonus abuse" flags up every time. You may not like it, you may not agree with it, but that's the reality of how it is.

 

[paul02085]

Yes but its only bonus abuse if you win. A no lose situation for the casino. I wouldnt play a Playtech casino if they put $10,000 in my account free. (Besides, they would accuse me of abusing the bonus anyway).

If the man is a bonus abuser give him back ALL of his deposits. If they do that then it is legit.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Whether the player was bonus 'chasing' or not makes no difference at all.

The terms and conditions of the casinos do not dissallow opening accounts at every casino using Playtech software so as long as the player met the wagering requirements at the casinos they are cashing in at they have no right to do this.

As always the fair and correct process is to pay first and ban later.

 

[sk2005]

Based on the amount of your 3 wins and 22 losses, and assuming that you deposited the same initial amount into each casino, your starting bankroll was $5500 and your initial deposit was $220 at each casino.

Honestly, I still struggle to see this as anything other than bonus chasing, but regardless, the lesson to be learned here is that depositing $220 in 25 different casinos in a short amount of time, and employing a "double up" betting strategy, is going to send red "bonus abuse" flags up every time. You may not like it, you may not agree with it, but that's the reality of how it is.

How can you say that? What red flags? What i did wrong? Where it says
on the casinos TC that one cannot sign up at the different casinos of the group? I just don't understand how can one support this kind of clear robbery? One day you could be in my place.
I only want that the casinos will play by the rules. If they give the bonus and the terms for it- they must respect it. If ,for some reason, they cannot afford giving bonuses-the must stop giving it-that is it. But what they are actually doing is the worst scenario- they give bonuses,give the terms for it and then violate their own terms in the case somebody wins at their casino.
This way players will only lose. In my case they stole 5000$ from me (not even the money i won- only those i deposited). That is a lot of money for me.

 

[mitch]

My strategy was doubling any winning hand until 1000+ units in my account. And i only reached that target in three cases- which made my overall results almost even.

If that is all there is to it and it doesn't involve multiple accounts, then you are not a bonus abuser, you are an advantage player.

Mind you, you are not that clever an advantage player by hitting all these casinos at the same time with exactly the same tactics. Your stategy is a winning one (albeit with very high variance) when you are playing with bonuses and you must have been unlucky (or on the wrong end of the variance) in your play not to come out with a profit overall.

If you are going to play this way you need to take things slowly depositing and withdrawing before moving onto other casinos.

Casinos will not like you playing this way with bonuses but if allowed in their T&Cs they should bite the bullet and pay up and if they are really pissed, bar you from further bonuses.

Your impatience has given the casinos a reason, in their own minds, to invoke their 'catch all' T&C.

Mitch

 

[DealerBusts]

I feel for you sk2005. I'm afraid there are no easy pickings on online gambling anymore. I do admire your bravery at tackling 25 Platech casinos and trying to maximise your potential profit. Maybe a couple of years ago you would have had a better chance. I can't say i'm surprised that you finished at a loss and so far from the EV of the bonuses. I never did like Playech and do not consider it a fair. Too many of the Playtech operators are also not trustworthy imo.

 

[KasinoKing]

This is not 100% accurate, but my recent study of Playtechs gave these as being where VP is NOT allowed in WR (I think!)

This only includes 3 on your list (of which I checked just Vegas Red where VP is definitely not allowed), so the rest should probably have been OK.

I've only ever played a 3 Playtechs, and based on recent posts about them, it's unlikely I will try many more!

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[scrollock]

the problem here is that the term bonus abuse is a subjective term, which means its open "abuse" by the casinos

in general regardless of how a bonus is played, it will have +EV if cashed out ofter the WR.

now we have the problem where, people play minimiun stakes,usually $1 a pop at BJ (if it is allowed) and they are called bonus abusers

if you whack it all on one hand, or go for a doubling up method like this guy has, then thats bonus abuse.

now with these 2 scenarios, the first one the has the lowest possible varianace, the second has the highest variance. so this means all game play between these extremes is bonus abuse aswell, i.e. any play with a bonus is bonus abuse.

and as "bonus abuse" term is subjective, this means any time you play with a bonus you are vulnerable to being called a bonus abuser regardless of what you do.

it is quite obvious what this guy was doing and i dont need to explain what that is, but nevertheless he honoured the terms, and did take the HIGHEST RISK strategy which surely what the casinos want on a sign-up bonus, and as he took the highest risk startegy, he LOST money.

anyway this guy should be paid out as it seems, that even before he played he had his accounts marked, that if he won, then he wouldnt be paid, which is the old scam of keeping quiet till they have won, which is being currently being used so successfully by the golden palace group at the moment.

 

[toofast4u]

sk2005, how did you deposit???

These casinos, the first 22 losers anyways probably thought they had you good, until you got lucky at 3 of them, they saw it as a $5k profit, all they had to do was label you as a bounus abuser and take your winnings, a guaranteed payday for them. Best advice, is to never trust an online casino, there are very few that will not try to weasel out of paying anything back to you. Casinos set forth their terms regarding bonuses, ensuring their playthrough requirements make it highly likely that you will lose that amount of money while playing through. They make it seem like you should play through, and then risk even more to ever recieve your bonus and be able to cash out. What I would do first, is contace Bryan and see what he can do for you, then if that doesn' work take it a step further and try contacting your local attourney general(not sure how the law and online gambling will effect you on this one so do your homework). Lastly, contact your payment processor, if its netteller they will always take the casino's side, but If you paid by credit card ,contact your ccd company and do a chargeback. You paid for a game, were owed money and they refused to cooperate, which should be protected by visa and mastercards fraud protection. Your bank may also help you on this if you did infact use Neteller. Just have all the documentation to back it up and show them the e-mails they sent you, they might give you flack for using a bank account to gamble online but its their job to help you out. Just like if I buy something from a store online and they send me the wrong merchandise or not send it at all I am entitled to get my money back.

 

[JHV]

Maybe he was, but given that casinos sell the dream of winning money, you can't really criticise a player for trying to do that.

If you don't like people taking bonuses, you have several choices:

1) change the terms (like Reef Club's 200x) so that they are not viable

2) don't offer the frigging bonuses telling people that they get '100% free money' 'double your deposit'

3) after the player has signed up to 13 casinos or so, tell him that he cannot receive any more bonuses BEFORE he starts playing

Not give them the bonuses, let them lose their deposits and THEN decide that the player is an abuser. Frankly with all the confusing terms and concepts that Playtech have on their bonuses 'sticky bonuses', 'only play these games' '25x wagering requirement', etc., it's difficult to see how they could be of interest to anyone other than 'bonus hunters', as the unwary player, and certainly many new players to internet gambling think that 100% bonus means just that, and are disappointed to find that you need a degree in gaming theory and a lawyer to play at these places.

So I don't think these casinos with their sharp practices should be surprised at players trying to win. They are certainly not going to win themselves more players by behaving like this. Quite simple: don't offer the bonus in the first place, or pay. There are no other choices.

WONDERFUL POST! You have summed up the situation perfectly. Well done mate.

JHV

 

[JHV]

Yes but its only bonus abuse if you win. A no lose situation for the casino.

Exactly. If this gentleman lost at all 25 casinos, his inbox would be flooded with more bonus offers.

JHV

 

[dirk_dangerous]

Have to agree with Mitch that something just doesn't seem right about this. Depositing into 25 different casinos in a short period of time, just to "give them a try" seems a bit unusual, and certainly has the appearance of someone who is strictly chasing bonuses and trying to make a quick hit.

So, what's wrong with that? If a number of stores sell my favorite item, but limit me to one item per store, I can still go to another store and buy the same item--until I run out of stores.

And if he is labeled an abuser, then the other casinos should give his deposits back and that's that. Otherwise, as long as his information is correct he should be paid and then locked out.

 

[mgibson99]

So, what's wrong with that? If a number of stores sell my favorite item, but limit me to one item per store, I can still go to another store and buy the same item--until I run out of stores.

Sorry, this analogy has absolutely nothing at all to do with this situation.

And if he is labeled an abuser, then the other casinos should give his deposits back and that's that. Otherwise, as long as his information is correct he should be paid and then locked out.

We're beating a dead horse here, but.......I'm not saying its right, and I'm not saying its fair, and I'm not saying that I agree with it, but the reality is that we all know from reading many posts on this board that certain behaviors will get you labeled as a bonus abuser. CLEARLY, anyone who has followed this "bonus abuse" issue knows that even if you follow the T&C exactly, there are certain things that are red flags for casinos. Agree with me or not, I still say that plunking $200 into 25 casinos in a short period of time, then using a "double up" betting strategy, is just asking for trouble. It does not have the APPEARANCE of someone who is just trying out the casinos. It does not have the APPEARANCE of someone who is just trying out a new betting strategy. It does have the APPEARANCE of someone who is trying to make a quick hit and cash in a bunch of bonuses. Don't shoot the messenger. I think the casinos should pay him, but when you're risking $5000 of your own money, why even take the chance that your gambling pattern may APPEAR to be that of a bonus abuser.

I suspect that if he had posted a message in the forum BEFORE he gambled, and asked if anyone thought his proposed betting strategy would cause him any problems, the overwhelming response would have been DON'T DO IT. Too likely to raise red flags.

 

[JohnGalt]

I really don't get why attempting to win big on a high-variance game should throw up red flags. I mean, my understanding was that that's what lots of people like to do. Deposit a little and try to run up a big win. I often play this way. Now 25 casinos in one night is obviously excessive, but I don't know that I'd warn him away from this betting pattern, it doesn't seem especially abusive to me.

 

[dirk_dangerous]

Sorry, this analogy has absolutely nothing at all to do with this situation.

But it does. Each Playtech "store ran a similar promotion. The offer was good once at each store. There was and is no stipulation that players can only use the offer at one store (but that is how Playtech is treating it).

I understand this guy's play wasn't the play of a regular gambler, but it's a moot point. He did nothing wrong, except play these promotion in a very smart way. He didn't "abuse" anything.

Each Playtech casino is advertised as a separate casino, inviting new players to play. What takes place at one Playtech casino should have no bearing on what takes place at any other Playtech casino.

Playtech doesn't care if the abuser loses, but they don't want a winner.

The answer is very simple: If a casino takes a bet, they must pay the bet. Otherwise, they are nothing but crooks and thieves. They let the guy play and deposit and now they must pay the guy.

So please stop obsessing on how the guy played. As I said, it does not matteras long as he is a real player and followed the rules, he needs to be paid.

 

[dirk_dangerous]

finally a good example of a bonus abuser

Get a clue. Go back to losing your kid's lunch money at slots and avoid making an ass out of yourself with stupid comments like this one. What a shill.

 

[bagofmaggots]

WTF

Get a clue. Go back to losing your kid's lunch money at slots and avoid making an ass out of yourself with stupid comments like this one. What a shill.

WTF is your problem? My point was that this kind of activity is exactly what the casino operators consider bonus abuse. I don't think this player has done anything wrong either, other than having a really bad plan for winning some money. ! I STRONGLY disagree with labeling players as bonus abusers for accepting a bonus that has been offered to them and using that to their advantage. I call that being smart ! I don't see anything wrong with what this person has done and the're absolutly entitled to be paid their winnings too ! My point was vaild, taking 25 new player bonus's in 24 hours is precisly what casino operators consider bonus abuse. ! If you want to be labeled a bonus abuser.....this is the way to do it ! Who the F*** are you Dirk to be insulting me anyway?

 

[JHV]

The term 'bonus abuser' has negative connotations and is an incorrect term to use for someone that takes advantage of a promotion and follows all the terms and conditions of that promotion. It's irrelevant how many times a player does this in one day, so long as he is a real person (not a gnome).

This player under discussion in this thread is not a 'bonus abuser'. He is an advantage player. A 'bonus abuser' is someone who has 6 computers in their living room, and hits all the casino bonuses with multiple accounts. This is bonus abuse. Taking advantage of promotions offered by a wide range of casinos is not bonus abuse. If the casinos don't like this, they should prevent him from opening an account, or not grant the bonuses to his various accounts.

It is fraud on the casino's part to accept his money, and then withhold it due to a purely subjective policy. It is becoming quite clear that 'bonus abuse' is perfectly ok - just make sure you don't win. It's the winning that gets you labelled as a 'bonus abuser'.

JHV

 

[dirk_dangerous]

My point was vaild, taking 25 new player bonus's in 24 hours is precisly what casino operators consider bonus abuse. ! If you want to be labeled a bonus abuser.....this is the way to do it ! Who the F*** are you Dirk to be insulting me anyway?

You claimed his play was an example of bonus abuse. But his play was not an example of bonus abuse. How can a "real" player abuse something that is being freely offered by the casinos? They can't. They can only use it.

Bottom line he abused nothing. He took advantage of the promotions the casinos offered. It is that simple. It doesn't matter if he played 25 or 1000 Playtech casinos in one day.

Players like you should not stand up for the casinos. It's just wrong. Portal owners should put their foot down and call out casinos that do this type of thing.

That's my final word on this matter. And yes, I can be an ass sometimes. But anyone who stands up for these theiving casinos gets my ire up.

 

[dirk_dangerous]

The term 'bonus abuser' has negative connotations and is an incorrect term to use for someone that takes advantage of a promotion and follows all the terms and conditions of that promotion. It's irrelevant how many times a player does this in one day, so long as he is a real person (not a gnome).

This player under discussion in this thread is not a 'bonus abuser'. He is an advantage player. A 'bonus abuser' is someone who has 6 computers in their living room, and hits all the casino bonuses with multiple accounts. This is bonus abuse. Taking advantage of promotions offered by a wide range of casinos is not bonus abuse. If the casinos don't like this, they should prevent him from opening an account, or not grant the bonuses to his various accounts.

It is fraud on the casino's part to accept his money, and then withhold it due to a purely subjective policy. It is becoming quite clear that 'bonus abuse' is perfectly ok - just make sure you don't win. It's the winning that gets you labelled as a 'bonus abuser'.

JHV

Well said JHV. Your post is 100% correct.

 

[mgibson99]

It appears that there is alot of anger here and it is being misdirected, as I think most of you are missing the point that a few of us are trying to make. Nobody is sticking up for the casinos (that I can see), and nobody is saying that what the casinos did was right, and nobody is saying that he shouldn't get paid. Quite the contrary, look at what bagofmaggots posted:

I STRONGLY disagree with labeling players as bonus abusers for accepting a bonus that has been offered to them and using that to their advantage. I call that being smart ! I don't see anything wrong with what this person has done and the're absolutly entitled to be paid their winnings too

Look at what I posted:

I'm not saying its right, and I'm not saying its fair, and I'm not saying that I agree with it....I think the casinos should pay him

I think we are all in agreement that he followed the rules, and thus no bonus abuse occurred and he SHOULD be paid.

Having said that, a few of us (myself and bagofmaggots) are simply pointing out that collecting 25 new player bonuses in a short amount of time (was it really only 24 hours?), is sure to raise the bonus abuse flags with the casinos. Again, NOT that we agree with it, and NOT that we think its right, but its simply an observation.

Hope that clears up any misconception.

 

[jetset]

I think the value of a board like this is that it gives its members every shade of opinion as well as information, and it is therefore disappointing to see Bag and Gibson being attacked for posting what others may see as a contrary nuance on the adviseability of the complainant's playing style.

mgibson99 has just explained his/her position, and there was really no need to jump all over him/her earlier in my view.

I actually share his/ her opinion and think that the way the original complainant in this case tried to profit, he might as well have waved a big red flag.

However, like gibson, and assuming we have all the facts truthfully here I don't think he should have been penalised because he seems to have complied with all the T&C's save the iniquitous "We can do anything we want" lawyer's clause which is so subjective, all-embracing and nebulous as to be impossible of compliance anyway.

At the risk of being myself attacked, however I would point out that not all players are as moral and upstanding as the posters here (I hope!) and that casinos are under almost continuous attack from all manner of real fraudsters with constantly changing and often downright criminal schemes and manipulations of the bonus system, and that makes casino managements hyper-suspicious and ultra-defensive.

It is unfortunate but true that in many cases the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater, and that is something casinos need to consider very carefully.

It is also true that in some quarters on both sides of the divide a genuinely adversarial relationship has developed as a result of savvy but cynical and dare I say it even greedy players trying to extract the maximum possible return from casino bonus policies, and casinos defensively (and wrongly imo) trying to deny them that advantage through ill-advised T&C catch-alls and questionable disqualifications prompted by sometimes emotional reactions.

Regrettably, there's no room for emotion or "spirit of the bonus" grey areas in this essentially nit-picking scenario and casinos have to realise that they set the T&Cs and therefore have an obligation to meet their obligations and promises under their terms.

As we have read ad nauseum here and elsewhere, from a casino perspective the right way to handle this is:

1) Tighten up casino systems to more honestly, accurately and conscientiously identify those with whom you do not wish to do business. Pay close and expert attention to bonus construction. Improve internal promo-management-support communications. Focus objectively on each case under inspection and be as fair as possible. Don't throw good business away or needlessly antagonise other players.

2) Identify and exclude players identified solely as (insert whatever term suits you here for 'advantage player') from promos. But remember they are in the main playing within your T&Cs.

3) Where a player is identified as one that the casino would prefer to do without, for God's sake pay out your obligations first, put it behind you as school-time and then either lock the person out or ban from further promos.

4) Don't rely on clauses the lawyers might think are smart but are in fact either too comprehensive for fairness, or are temptations behind which bad or questionable decisions and lack of fair cause can be hidden.

The more business-oriented players may bridle at this view, but "...do unto others as you would have them do to you" Condemn the fraudster players and syndicates that are making life difficult for everyone.

Most powerful player prerogative of all - deny your business to casinos that behave in an unprofessional or dishonest way.

P.S. Great post, JHV!

 

[scrollock]

whenever bonuses are offered, their will always be people who will play for the bonus only. the situation is no different to a supermarket that does a "buy one get one free" offer on a box of soap powder, the majority of people will get other shopping in, but others will only go in and buy the soap powder only.

and to strip the issue to its bare essentials, you could have a car dealer thats offers to sell a car at 1/2 price, but then keeps refusing to sell it because people only want to buy it because its 1/2 price.

 

[Tigr50]

Playtech

Hi all:
I found this thread interesting, because It involves Playtech. I have been testing a Playtech casino (just one) every day for a couple of months for randomness, or even pseudorandomness (which is what most online casinos use, and pseudo is really OK). At this particular casino, there seems to be a very noticable difference between "Fun Play" randomness and "Real Play" randomness on the roulette wheel, even though the casino says they are the same. You savvy gamblers out there probably don't play for "fun money," but it is a good testing arena for our technology.

My question is, has anyone noticed a similar difference in their "luck" at Playtech casino's when it comes to "Fun" play and "Real Play"?
Cheers and thanks
Tigr50

 

[mitch]

Hi all:
I found this thread interesting, because It involves Playtech. I have been testing a Playtech casino (just one) every day for a couple of months for randomness, or even pseudorandomness (which is what most online casinos use, and pseudo is really OK). At this particular casino, there seems to be a very noticable difference between "Fun Play" randomness and "Real Play" randomness on the roulette wheel, even though the casino says they are the same. You savvy gamblers out there probably don't play for "fun money," but it is a good testing arena for our technology.

My question is, has anyone noticed a similar difference in their "luck" at Playtech casino's when it comes to "Fun" play and "Real Play"?
Cheers and thanks
Tigr50

Tigr50

See the previous thread on this page, "The Playtech Problem".

Karenpearson seems to have some evidence regarding this issue and you may wish to PM her.

Mitch