Online RTP settings??

[Nifty29]

<sigh> An interesting (if repetitive) conversation derailed again by personal squabbling, discourtesy and "ganging up" perceptions.

Can we get back to the topic - I know this has been turned over again and again, but it's an important subject and new views and information usually refresh the debate.

***


Anyhoo.....

The main problem is that there is no credible evidence that online RTPS are altered on the fly either on a daily or even session basis, nor whether they even can be.

The only basis that people who believe the "conspiracy" have for such beliefs is that "the slots don't pay like they used to" or "the bonus rounds pay nothing anymore", which is 100% perception based, and conveniently dismisses the fact that the payout potential of newer slots and bonus games is higher than five years ago. Yes, it will seem like less wins, but those wins will be bigger.....but we never remember the wins when we've just had a loss.

I've heard exactly the same claims made by players in land based casinos and clubs for a decade, and yet the legislated RTP of slots here haven't changed in all that time. Operators CANNOT change anything involving payback, so how do you explain the continual "they've tightened up the games" complaints?

Some people talk up the land based slots, but it has been shown repeatedly that online RTPs are better, and I know this from experience.


***

 

[felicie]

Wow, that's a tough question, Felicie. I would have thought that some of my posts here had value. Otherwise you would look fairly stupid, since you have, in fact, thanked me a time or two.

Why don't you set up a poll and we'll have to see what others think!

It's all a big popularity contest is it? well thanks, that explains a lot. cheers.

 

[chuchu59]

I would rather the two of you show your photos here and a beauty contest be set up instead.

 

[maxd]

It's all a big popularity contest is it? well thanks, that explains a lot. cheers.

HELLO! What part of "let's get back on topic" is not clear?
If you want a "kvetch and derail" thread then please do so elsewhere, otherwise enough of that here. Please and thank you.

 

[bowlingbob]

Below is a list of regulations that New Jersey must abide by to lower or change their RTP settings. This alone pretty much confirms in New Jersey it can’t be done on the fly.


In Atlantic City the payback percentage is 83%. Most slots pay in the neighborhood of 90% over time, but the point here is that regulatory agencies do not allow a casino to flip a switch and change the payback percentage. The regulators want to reliably know that machine #xxxxx will operate in X manner and will pay back X percentage over time. No surprises. No mysteries.

And how do the regulators enforce the rules? Let's look at how the process is handled in New Jersey...

Every RNG in Atlantic City is individually certified and sealed by New Jersey’s Division of Gaming Enforcement. A casino CANNOT change a machine's payback unless the casino does the following...

• The casino makes an application to the DGE.
• The machine is opened under DGE supervision.
• The DGE breaks the processor's seal and supervises the program/chip replacement.
• The DGE creates a new seal, and re-certifies the machine.

The Division of Gaming Enforcement maintains a database of every slot machine in the state of New Jersey. The specific payback percentage of every machine is part of that database. Every RNG is numbered and tracked.

The above procedures are typical for most regulatory agencies throughout the U.S.

This is simply not true anymore. Yes in the old days to change a machines RTP required all the above what you are saying but with modern technology land-based casinos CAN and DO change the payback percentages on the fly with Server based network systems. Now for most casinos this is a very expensive but profitable upgrade and at present moment not all casinos have upgraded. But rest assured within a few years the majority of land based casinos will have some form of server based gaming in effect. Now from my understanding the machine does have to be shut down for a few minutes while the new RTP is being downloaded into the machine so it just can't be done while the customer is playing. If you don't think this is happening and want proof check out this video from Bally, one of the top manufactures of slot machines in land based casinos.

Look closely at around 1:30 as they show a close up of the menu and you can clearly see you can change the RTP from the command center software.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[4 of a kind]

This is simply not true anymore. Yes in the old days to change a machines RTP required all the above what you are saying but with modern technology land-based casinos CAN and DO change the payback percentages on the fly with Server based network systems. Now for most casinos this is a very expensive but profitable upgrade and at present moment not all casinos have upgraded. But rest assured within a few years the majority of land based casinos will have some form of server based gaming in effect. Now from my understanding the machine does have to be shut down for a few minutes while the new RTP is being downloaded into the machine so it just can't be done while the customer is playing. If you don't think this is happening and want proof check out this video from Bally, one of the top manufactures of slot machines in land based casinos.

Look closely at around 1:30 as they show a close up of the menu and you can clearly see you can change the RTP from the command center software.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I'm sure land based networks just can't go and change RTP's on the fly without notifying regulators, as per regulations clearly specify. The stand alone machines that required individual chip replacement as per above may be changing, but the regulations weren't just thrown out of the window because of new technology. I will look into what regulated protocol is necessary for land based casinos with networks to follow to actually change RTP settings.

What is scary about that technology is being in the hands of unregulated online casinos.

Blowingbob's comment above that "land-based casinos CAN and DO change the payback percentages on the fly with Server based network systems" is a perfect example of a person not doing any research where research can be achieved. Unlike online casinos where no research is achievable.

 

[4 of a kind]

***


Anyhoo.....

The main problem is that there is no credible evidence that online RTPS are altered on the fly either on a daily or even session basis, nor whether they even can be.

The only basis that people who believe the "conspiracy" have for such beliefs is that "the slots don't pay like they used to" or "the bonus rounds pay nothing anymore", which is 100% perception based, and conveniently dismisses the fact that the payout potential of newer slots and bonus games is higher than five years ago. Yes, it will seem like less wins, but those wins will be bigger.....but we never remember the wins when we've just had a loss.

I've heard exactly the same claims made by players in land based casinos and clubs for a decade, and yet the legislated RTP of slots here haven't changed in all that time. Operators CANNOT change anything involving payback, so how do you explain the continual "they've tightened up the games" complaints?

Some people talk up the land based slots, but it has been shown repeatedly that online RTPs are better, and I know this from experience.


***

The other problem is that there is no credible evidence that online RTP's can not be altered on the fly.

On the one hand you state that online players who believe RTP's are being lowered without proof is based on 100% perception. Then you counter with "it has been shown repeatedly that online RTP's are better, and I know this from experience". Since that statement is being based on your own personal experiences without proof, wouldn't that too have to be based on 100% perception?

There is nothing wrong with changing RTP's be it higher to attract new customers, or lowered to improve the house hold. The only problem is players wanting to know the rules regulators will enforce for such changes. When everyone knows their are no rules being enforced, the doors are wide open for the players (especially losers) imaginations to take over.

 

[Nifty29]

The other problem is that there is no credible evidence that online RTP's can not be altered on the fly.

On the one hand you state that online players who believe RTP's are being lowered without proof is based on 100% perception. Then you counter with "it has been shown repeatedly that online RTP's are better, and I know this from experience". Since that statement is being based on your own personal experiences without proof, wouldn't that too have to be based on 100% perception?

There is nothing wrong with changing RTP's be it higher to attract new customers, or lowered to improve the house hold. The only problem is players wanting to know the rules regulators will enforce for such changes. When everyone knows their are no rules being enforced, the doors are wide open for the players (especially losers) imaginations to take over.

***

I said experience not perception. Perhaps I should have said results. I played online sparingly in the early days as I wasn't brave enough to risk my money with people I don't know or can't see, but I spent a load in land based slots (which are legislated at 86-88% depending on venue).

Since I moved to almost exclusively online gambling, I have spent far less and actually came out ahead in a couple of years. Hence, I compare my results from games that I KNOW pay 88% to the ones I BELIEVE pay ~95% and see a very clear distinction. It is my experience based on concrete facts.

I also know from reading these forums for over a decade that many players do not know "how to play" and this has an enormous impact on the bottom line, but that same reading and attempts to assist and educate to help these players has been met with "ehh fooey" or "shill" or some other pointless res
ponse....which is why I don't bother these days. It's far easier to lose all your money/bankroll and blame the casino/software/operators for cheating or "rigging" (my fave btw) the games.

At the end of the day, if one doesn't think the games are "as advertised" then one has the choice to cease playing online. I respect you for having the courage of your convictions. Most members of the "its rigged brigade" just piss and moan because they're too lazy, ignorant or dense to make an effort to understand what they are risking their cash on.....and I have no time for them at all. I'm happy to debate you however as I know you aren't just ranting because you lost, but rather you are speaking from a viewpoint that you have obviously researched and put effort into.

CM forums have always been full of people swearing black and blue that the RTPs have been lowered. If they were all right, then we would be at about 10% now which is obviously laughable. So, what makes all of them wrong, and all the recent proponents of this theory right?


***

 

[LHofsdal]

I think when it comes to certain platforms, the ones who post their stats, because it is public, when and IF they do change it will be public knowledge. It is the ones like RTG who doesn't post their stats, that make people people think it can be changed.

With all the recent developements with US authorities, I am sure all casinos have been effected by this. Some casinos even closed, some reputable casinos at that. But, how many RTG casinos have you seen close due to this? Do you think these RTG casinos could have changed their RTP's to accomdate the sign of the times?

These places are in business to make money, just like a grocery store. Here in the US when gas prices shot up through the roof, prices on everything went up. They had to cover the higher delivery costs some how. With RTG hiding everything how do we know if they did this or not? We just don't know.
I am sure adjustments had to be made by these casinos, but no one really knows where these adjustment have taken place.

I am sure each deposit and withdrawl cost the casino money, and with processors vanishing, and sometimes with alot of money that is not theirs, it has to be costly for the casinos. They are going to have to get back this money somehow. Without being as transparent as other platform, RTG leaves themselves wide open for all types of speculation. Whether is it good or bad, they are the ones who refuse to come out and be transparent like others.

Without any type of concrete evidence, no one really knows. And I truely believe that there are some players that would bet their life on it that was changed, and then their are other players who want evidence before their make their decision. Either way until RTG becomes more transparent, we are always going to have this debate. It is for the most part a good debate, with a few bumps in the road, but until the hard facts come out, everything at the moment is pure speculation.

Just sayin'
LH

 

[daveboz]

This is simply not true anymore. Yes in the old days to change a machines RTP required all the above what you are saying but with modern technology land-based casinos CAN and DO change the payback percentages on the fly with Server based network systems. Now for most casinos this is a very expensive but profitable upgrade and at present moment not all casinos have upgraded. But rest assured within a few years the majority of land based casinos will have some form of server based gaming in effect. Now from my understanding the machine does have to be shut down for a few minutes while the new RTP is being downloaded into the machine so it just can't be done while the customer is playing. If you don't think this is happening and want proof check out this video from Bally, one of the top manufactures of slot machines in land based casinos.

Look closely at around 1:30 as they show a close up of the menu and you can clearly see you can change the RTP from the command center software.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

"Now from my understanding the machine does have to be shut down for a few minutes while the new RTP is being downloaded into the machine so it just can't be done while the customer is playing"

I think your on to something here! This explains why there are so many administrator disconnections at RTG casinos that occur either in the middle of play or upon clicking back to return to the main lobby.

 

[Nifty29]

"Now from my understanding the machine does have to be shut down for a few minutes while the new RTP is being downloaded into the machine so it just can't be done while the customer is playing"

I think your on to something here! This explains why there are so many administrator disconnections at RTG casinos that occur either in the middle of play or upon clicking back to return to the main lobby.

Looks like you really got 'em this time Dave......right by the goolies.

We now have irrefutable evidence that RTG casinos change their rtp on the fly. We now also know that there are hundreds of administrators watching each player to monitor their win/loss ratio.

The game is finally up. 4OAK can get the first good nights sleep in a year, and we can all move our play to other softwares.

Thanks dave for saving us all from ourselves

 

[chuchu59]

If we are talking about rtg whilst it is not entirely possible to prove they have tampered with the rtp settings I believe they are tempted to do so because their loyalty (if you want to call it that) rests with the casino operators. Reputation counts for little to them. The thread on CDS just about sums it all. Clearly they will be pressurised by the casinos to reduce the rtp unnoticingly thus improving their profit margins. Many of us here know about the rng thing but why is it not possible to have it altered to say a weighted rng where the huge wins are scarce. I can only comment on games I regularly play at and have noticed that there are 2 slots with reduced rtps; Diamond Dozen which I had mentioned several times before elsewhere obviously has less of 2 blue diamond scatters than before. There are 2 blue scatters in each of the 1st and 2nd reels so chances are they should occur together quite frequently. If you hit one in the first reel chances are you wont hit one in the 2nd reel 9 times out of 10. Given that this combination pays 2x your bet the rtp can be reduced a bit and over the long run losses can be substantial. How they are able to do this is another matter.

As for T-rex most wins come from the appearance of this beast in the middle reel. While I am not certain how many t-rexes there are in the middle reel I am sure there should be more than 1. However, in recent play, this dinosaur seems to have vanished from the slot appearing on far fewer occasions than previously. Its still early days yet but I keep depositing $20 with a bonus and bet 0.25 to see for myself whether my assumption is correct. No Dave I aint gonna bet $5 a spin to prove my point. Too costly.

I am aware that the above proves nothing. However, next time you play theses slots be on the lookout for what is mentioned above. You should also play your fav slot and tell us about your observations. However, it is best to be armed with some knowledge of the slot first before discussing. IMO it is fruitless to say I didnt get a feature in xxx spins or the feature I finally got paid only xx my bet. These things do happen and the point made stems from frustration more than anything else. Hehe, I am off to deposit $20 again. What slot do you guys reckon I should try?

 

[Tengil]

RTG can change the RTP on the fly. But thats only for BJ AFAIK by disconnecting and changing the number of decks (up to 255 or was it 199). Changes the RTP a bit.

By allowing that and other stuff like disconnecting and changing the max bets (sometimes to zero) and offering different RTP settings its no surprise that RTG keeps popping up in discussions like this.
They have created the problem all by themself and will never get fully trusted until they remove those options from the operators.

 

[daveboz]

If we are talking about rtg whilst it is not entirely possible to prove they have tampered with the rtp settings I believe they are tempted to do so because their loyalty (if you want to call it that) rests with the casino operators. Reputation counts for little to them. The thread on CDS just about sums it all. Clearly they will be pressurised by the casinos to reduce the rtp unnoticingly thus improving their profit margins. Many of us here know about the rng thing but why is it not possible to have it altered to say a weighted rng where the huge wins are scarce. I can only comment on games I regularly play at and have noticed that there are 2 slots with reduced rtps; Diamond Dozen which I had mentioned several times before elsewhere obviously has less of 2 blue diamond scatters than before. There are 2 blue scatters in each of the 1st and 2nd reels so chances are they should occur together quite frequently. If you hit one in the first reel chances are you wont hit one in the 2nd reel 9 times out of 10. Given that this combination pays 2x your bet the rtp can be reduced a bit and over the long run losses can be substantial. How they are able to do this is another matter.

As for T-rex most wins come from the appearance of this beast in the middle reel. While I am not certain how many t-rexes there are in the middle reel I am sure there should be more than 1. However, in recent play, this dinosaur seems to have vanished from the slot appearing on far fewer occasions than previously. Its still early days yet but I keep depositing $20 with a bonus and bet 0.25 to see for myself whether my assumption is correct. No Dave I aint gonna bet $5 a spin to prove my point. Too costly.



I am aware that the above proves nothing. However, next time you play theses slots be on the lookout for what is mentioned above. You should also play your fav slot and tell us about your observations. However, it is best to be armed with some knowledge of the slot first before discussing. IMO it is fruitless to say I didnt get a feature in xxx spins or the feature I finally got paid only xx my bet. These things do happen and the point made stems from frustration more than anything else. Hehe, I am off to deposit $20 again. What slot do you guys reckon I should try?

What I've noticed about RTG lately is exactly that.. Ridiculous amounts of spins without a feature. What you will T Rex, he shows up a lot in that middle reel. What I'm finding lately is when he does show up there are hardly any other beasts on the first two reels. That really cuts into payout. Always get two crowns on 4 and 5 on Realms of Riches too Pays nothing. I'm also thinking RTP is player specific at RTG. If you win, expect to start losing. Ever hit a 50X bet during a spin than lose 15 in a row?

 

[chuchu59]

What I've noticed about RTG lately is exactly that.. Ridiculous amounts of spins without a feature. What you will T Rex, he shows up a lot in that middle reel. What I'm finding lately is when he does show up there are hardly any other beasts on the first two reels. That really cuts into payout. Always get two crowns on 4 and 5 on Realms of Riches too Pays nothing. I'm also thinking RTP is player specific at RTG. If you win, expect to start losing. Ever hit a 50X bet during a spin than lose 15 in a row?

Exactly that. For the nayers we have to be more specific and spell in detail why we think something is wrong though I tend to not agree that the software is player specific. It would take an extremely intelligent version to do that.

 

[4 of a kind]

***

Since I moved to almost exclusively online gambling, I have spent far less and actually came out ahead in a couple of years. Hence, I compare my results from games that I KNOW pay 88% to the ones I BELIEVE pay ~95% and see a very clear distinction. It is my experience based on concrete facts.



CM forums have always been full of people swearing black and blue that the RTPs have been lowered. If they were all right, then we would be at about 10% now which is obviously laughable. So, what makes all of them wrong, and all the recent proponents of this theory right?


***

Your clear distinction compared to land based and online casinos are being based on slot play and after several years of play should be respected by others. I'm also certain that my decade of what some might consider compulsive action while playing online was video poker and should also be respected. The problem is respect is one thing and actual facts are another. Although our opinions based on long term experiences that should be respected; it is still possible that luck was the deciding factor.

I certainly couldn't give an opinion about online slots being compared to land based casinos, nor could I give an opinion about online video poker compared to land based slots. When I visit land based casinos the only time I played video poker was to take a break from live table action and or poker. I very rarely played video poker at land based casinos, and still today couldn't make a fair comparison.

When I was first introduced to online casinos, of course I jumped into BJ, craps, baccarat, let it ride, 3 card poker, and immediately within a month or two felt the outcomes weren't even close to land based. I then gave video poker a go of it, and was very happy with the play time and for the most part the outcomes. I then went on to master the video poker games I enjoyed and the rest is history.

I have flawless records of all my gambling during this time, which includes land based, online, horses, and lottery gaming. I would never post these records for more reasons than one. I could only confirm that after 7 years of playing online video poker for the same amounts of money and time and being satisfied with the outcomes, did the next two years of doing the same confirm for me that something beyond normal expectations was in place. Based on the number of hands I played there was no doubt in my mind that things had changed online. From being use to hitting between 15 and 20 royal flushes a year for seven years, I suddenly was reduced to 3 to 5 for the next two years with the same action.

Those facts are hard to accept since video poker is not even supposed to be based on preset RTP settings. Regardless of some of the pay tables being reduced, each card still is suppose to have only 1 number assigned to it leaving the rest only up to the RNG.

This is what convinced me that video poker online software could be programmed in ways I'm not familiar with. Without having regulations being enforced controlling and confirming facts, I had no option but to take the stance of rigged.

Edit: On a side note I would like to add that for most of the first seven years playing online it was 98% being played at the original Golden Palace casino. Things didn't start to go sour till not long after the UIGEA was passed and I moved to RTG.

 

[Nifty29]

What I've noticed about RTG lately is exactly that.. Ridiculous amounts of spins without a feature. What you will T Rex, he shows up a lot in that middle reel. What I'm finding lately is when he does show up there are hardly any other beasts on the first two reels. That really cuts into payout. Always get two crowns on 4 and 5 on Realms of Riches too Pays nothing. I'm also thinking RTP is player specific at RTG. If you win, expect to start losing. Ever hit a 50X bet during a spin than lose 15 in a row?

What you describe is within expectations.

If you think they control rtp on a per-player basis, you are not only deluded, but the next spin you take on an RTG slot makes you appear extremely foolish. I mean, who would knowingly play a rigged game?

 

[ShayDrew]

What I fail to understand is:

1) Why would Casino's need to adjust RTP when they already have an edge and they would turn away players with continual losses?
2) Why do people that are CONVINCED that Casino's do adjust RTP play at said Casinos?

I think we all need to understand that AT BEST we are looking at 95% RTP - for people such as me in NZ by the time I have currency conversion charges etc the overall RTP will drop further for me, but the reason I play? ENTERTAINMENT! Anyone who plays to make money is deluded in my opinion - unless you win Mega Moolah/Mega Fortune you will only ever lose in the long term - and although its a nice surprise when your $50 turns into $500 and you buy something nice with it - when I deposit my $50, buy my 6 pack off beer and a bottle of wine for the wife we think "time to relax and a cheap night in" and that is all!

If you seriously think you are going to win big playing ANY form of gambling - then you probably shouldn't......

 

[Nifty29]

What I fail to understand is:

1) Why would Casino's need to adjust RTP when they already have an edge and they would turn away players with continual losses?2) Why do people that are CONVINCED that Casino's do adjust RTP play at said Casinos?
I think we all need to understand that AT BEST we are looking at 95% RTP - for people such as me in NZ by the time I have currency conversion charges etc the overall RTP will drop further for me, but the reason I play? ENTERTAINMENT! Anyone who plays to make money is deluded in my opinion - unless you win Mega Moolah/Mega Fortune you will only ever lose in the long term - and although its a nice surprise when your $50 turns into $500 and you buy something nice with it - when I deposit my $50, buy my 6 pack off beer and a bottle of wine for the wife we think "time to relax and a cheap night in" and that is all!

If you seriously think you are going to win big playing ANY form of gambling - then you probably shouldn't......

1) Simple...they don't.

2) Simple....because they have a serious gambling problem and need to apportion the blame for their losses to other parties, negating the need for them to face their addiction, and hence continue gambling without taking responsbility for it. Also, there are some who are incredibly dense and ignorant who just ignore the facts because they don't, or can't, understand them.

Nobody wins in the long run, except for the cheats and fraudsters (refer to such sites as bleating bonuses etc) who take +EV bonuses on dozens of accounts. Anybody who says they are constantly ahead, especially slot players, are playing with themselves IMO.

 

[ksech]

There can be small exceptions to that rule though Nifty...
you can have the recreational player who knows WHEN to call it quits, hits the cashout button and walks away. The next time plays for a bit, gets a few bucks ahead, does the same. BUT, this would have to be a very disciplined person (which most gamblers are not).

I do, however, agree with your statement that the addict is the one who will cry rigged, cheat, etc. because they need someone other than themselve to blame for their losses. They will almost always chase that ever elusive win, and will drive down the road of self-destruction. Hopefully, they will realize the mistake they are making and be able to pull themselves out of trouble before they face losses they can't recover from (loss of family, home, job, or what-have-you).

 

[3mptyseat]

answers

What I fail to understand is:

1) Why would Casino's need to adjust RTP when they already have an edge and they would turn away players with continual losses?
2) Why do people that are CONVINCED that Casino's do adjust RTP play at said Casinos?

1) To maximize profits and control variance and its potential damage on slower nights/days/seasons.

2) Because every land-based casino that legally is allowed to, does.

 

[takethemoney]

1) To maximize profits and control variance and its potential damage on slower nights/days/seasons.

2) Because every land-based casino that legally is allowed to, does.

Your last part must be true. My wife used to work as a slot attendant at an Indian casino. They would staff less on weekends, on some shifts
when they had the most business. She said they had more people working and more jackpots paying on weekday nights, especially right before
the weekend, then on weekends you would often have the place packed with very few jackpots being paid out, hence the need for less staff.
Weekends are the cash cow for the casino when they have the most bodies playing the machines and then is likely that the RTP is set the lowest.

 

[Nifty29]

Your last part must be true. My wife used to work as a slot attendant at an Indian casino. They would staff less on weekends, on some shifts
when they had the most business. She said they had more people working and more jackpots paying on weekday nights, especially right before
the weekend, then on weekends you would often have the place packed with very few jackpots being paid out, hence the need for less staff.
Weekends are the cash cow for the casino when they have the most bodies playing the machines and then is likely that the RTP is set the lowest.

Now there's concrete proof if anyone wants it

1) To maximize profits and control variance and its potential damage on slower nights/days/seasons.

2) Because every land-based casino that legally is allowed to, does.

Nobody says they don't ever do it. Everyone knows they are allowed to pursuant to regulatory requirements.

The IIRC (International It's Rigged Campaign)...pronounced "irk"...insist that its done as one is playing, and that an admin is watching everyone play and adjusting accordingly. Totally fanciful.

 

[4 of a kind]

with modern technology land-based casinos CAN and DO change the payback percentages on the fly with Server based network systems.

I thought I would give an update on this comment made by "bowlingbob" above.

After 30 minutes of searching regulations at both the CCC and the DGE web sites I just couldn't read anymore, so I emailed the CCC yesterday and got this response today:


Dear Mr. xxxxxxxx,

Thank you for your e-mail to the Casino Control Commission. Because of recent changes to the Casino Control Act, the responsibility for handling day-to-day matters has shifted to the Division of Gaming Enforcement. I am forwarding a copy of this response to the DGE so that they can respond to your inquiry. In addition, you can reach the DGE by telephone at 609 894-0909.

Please let me know if I can be of additional assistance.

I'll wait for the response by e-mail since I would rather have it in writing, or at least be directed right to it. Will update as soon as I hear anything.

 

[4 of a kind]

Now there's concrete proof if anyone wants it



Nobody says they don't ever do it. Everyone knows they are allowed to pursuant to regulatory requirements.

The IIRC (International It's Rigged Campaign)...pronounced "irk"...insist that its done as one is playing, and that an admin is watching everyone play and adjusting accordingly. Totally fanciful.

That's the whole problem Nifty. There may very well be regulatory requirements in place, but who do you know that actually read any of them?

We know there are some legit online casino operators out there, but without knowing for fact that there are regulatory requirements in place along with regulatory monitoring and enforcement, the doors will forever be open for the IIRC with endless new members joining everyday.

It must be a very frustrating position to be in for the honest operators that are out there. Imagine investing into an online casino with good intentions, then find yourself swimming in a giant fish tank surrounded by starving sharks.

 

[3mptyseat]

As gamblers we have to accept the fact that we will never know *exactly* what is going on whether its online or in a B&M casino. There is just some blindness that will never see the light. Accept it and understand that its part of "gambling"...........Don't give in to the conspirators -- just accept that you will never know for sure, so why sweat it?

Gambling is gambling.

Diane

Nifty often suggests that people wouldnt play at a casino they knew was rigged... I assert, they not only would play at a rigged casino, esp. one they have won b4 at, but this quote above summarizes it... "gambling is gambling" never has more truth and idiocy graced the forum walls here.

 

[Nifty29]

Nifty often suggests that people wouldnt play at a casino they knew was rigged... I assert, they not only would play at a rigged casino, esp. one they have won b4 at, but this quote above summarizes it... "gambling is gambling" never has more truth and idiocy graced the forum walls here.

Actually, I often suggest that intelligent people wouldn't play at a casino they knew was rigged. Big difference.

Ive seen plenty of idiocy in the forums, but not near as much as I've seen in the blogs.

 

[maxd]

Ok you two, chill TF out! You both know better that to start swinging the "idiocy" stick around. Keep that crap to yourselves, please and thank you.

 

[takethemoney]

To exclude the possibility that some casinos could and would adjust the RTP to suit themselves on occasion would be naive. Computers are programmed to do what the operators want and if it the "want" is to raid your wallet, don't you think they could do that?

 

[chuchu59]

To exclude the possibility that some casinos could and would adjust the RTP to suit themselves on occasion would be naive. Computers are programmed to do what the operators want and if it the "want" is to raid your wallet, don't you think they could do that?

While they could tamper with the rtp they have to cater for customer patronage in the long run. With a low rtp customers are likely to flee in droves after being slaughtered so the operators have to strike the right balance and maximise profits in the long run. No matter how low the rtp is they gain nothing if there are no customers.

 

[takethemoney]

While they could tamper with the rtp they have to cater for customer patronage in the long run. With a low rtp customers are likely to flee in droves after being slaughtered so the operators have to strike the right balance and maximise profits in the long run. No matter how low the rtp is they gain nothing if there are no customers.

But there will be customers and they will be the ones on the mission to get even with the casino and chase their losses, regardless of the possibilities. The casino understands this and that is precisely how they thrive. They cater to hopes and dreams.

 

[Nifty29]

While they could tamper with the rtp they have to cater for customer patronage in the long run. With a low rtp customers are likely to flee in droves after being slaughtered so the operators have to strike the right balance and maximise profits in the long run. No matter how low the rtp is they gain nothing if there are no customers.

Don't waste your time Chu.

 

[3mptyseat]

Actually, I often suggest that intelligent people wouldn't play at a casino they knew was rigged. Big difference.

Ive seen plenty of idiocy in the forums, but not near as much as I've seen in the blogs.

I think ur suggestion illustrates a pov that is unaware of, or more likely smugly dismissive of certain impulsive character types. I would also argue that a base intelligence would be required to detect a certain riggedness. But anyway kinda irrelevant since there is yet another reason one might play at a less than random site; previous win history at the site....

BTW...Do u troll any other forums? Ur quite entertaining when I don't take it personally.

 

[maxd]

... smugly dismissive ... kinda irrelevant ...Do u troll any other forums?

You were perfectly aware that this continued baiting had to stop and I warned you repeatedly what the consequences would be if you continued. Well, you've continued and now you're outta here for 90 days. As we've said time and again, find a new attitude or find somewhere else to post. Attach Removed (Old not found)

In case anyone is wondering Bryan has been flagged on this so he'll know ASAP what's happened here.

 

[4 of a kind]

I thought I would give an update on this comment made by "bowlingbob" above.

After 30 minutes of searching regulations at both the CCC and the DGE web sites I just couldn't read anymore, so I emailed the CCC yesterday and got this response today:


Dear Mr. xxxxxxxx,

Thank you for your e-mail to the Casino Control Commission. Because of recent changes to the Casino Control Act, the responsibility for handling day-to-day matters has shifted to the Division of Gaming Enforcement. I am forwarding a copy of this response to the DGE so that they can respond to your inquiry. In addition, you can reach the DGE by telephone at 609 894-0909.

Please let me know if I can be of additional assistance.

I'll wait for the response by e-mail since I would rather have it in writing, or at least be directed right to it. Will update as soon as I hear anything.

Received this e-mail today from the Division of Gaming Enforcement:


Mr. xxxxxxxx,

Good morning. I have received your email request and have forwarded it to our Technical Services Bureau for reply. Lisa

Lisa Spengler
Administration
New Jersey Division of Gaming Enforcment

 

[4 of a kind]

In the past any requests for gambling information was always handled just by contacting the Casino Control Commission. Apparently Governor Chris Christie made some modifications earlier this year.



TRANSITION INFORMATION


Amendments to
Casino Control Act
N.J.S.A. 5:12-1, et seq.
On February 1, 2011, Governor Chris Christie signed into law a bill that modifies many provisions in the Casino Control Act, N.J.S.A. 5:12-1, et seq. As a result of these modifications, the Division of Gaming Enforcement (DGE) will be assuming numerous functions that had been overseen by the Casino Control Commission (CCC) and other functions/requirements will no longer exist. To provide information about this transition, the Division has established a separate page that contains a host of relevant information, including a copy of the bill, a means to pose questions and provide information to the Division, a list of FAQs, and a link through which CCC employees can indicate their interest in possible employment opportunities with the Division.

We will update the Transition Page as appropriate so we encourage all interested parties to review this page if they have questions regarding the transition

QUESTIONS:

If you have questions regarding the transition, please check our FAQs first. If you cannot locate the answer to your questions, please Contact Us:

 

[4 of a kind]

Just got this from the New Jersey Division of Gaming Enforcement:

Dear Mr. xxxxxxx,

Thank for your email regarding slot machine regulations. New Jersey regulations currently permit server supported slot systems, meaning approved software may be downloaded to a slot machine by a casino licensee. These regulations were temporarily adopted and may be found using the following Internet link: Old / Expired Link

Please be aware that no server supported system is currently approved for use in New Jersey, nor do our regulations permit server based gaming where the RNG resides on a central server that is controlled by a casino licensee. The Division of Gaming Enforcement does expect to see some form of server supported gaming in the future. However, when this occurs the system will first need to meet strict regulatory requirements and then be operated with appropriate oversight by the Division.
Thank you for your inquiry.

Very truly yours,
Eric Weiss
Technical Services Bureau Administrator and Lab Director

 

[4 of a kind]

Click on the link in post above and go down to the third set of regulations, "Server Supported Slot Systems" You could read all the requirements for server based systems. It covers any and all questions one might have about the system.

I pulled this text out:

Prior to the loading or installation of any software on a slot machine server, the software in question will have to be verified by a Commission representative using an independent verification device approved by and under the control of the Commission and the Division. The device will verify each digital signature on the software to ensure that the software is an authentic copy of the software that was approved for installation and use on the slot machine server.

In all cases, any changes will have to be made in the presence of at least two individuals, one of whom will be an employee of the casino licensee’s MIS department, and one of whom will be a Commission representative. See N.J.A.C. 19:46-2.4(e).


In addition I sent my request on August 31, and received all information within 3 days. This is how enforced regulation works.

This also confirms what "bowlingbob" said here: "with modern technology land-based casinos CAN and DO change the payback percentages on the fly with Server based network systems". should be considered as false information at least under the regulated jurisdictions of New Jersey.

Considering online is operating on a server based program, could anyone here tell me how their software programs are being monitored?

Looks like land-based regulators have an awful lot of regulations in place to stop corruption with this network programming system. Wonder what their so worried about.

 

[4 of a kind]

Read through some more of those regulations for server based slot machines in New Jersey and found this regulation also interesting.


The slot machine server will be under dual key control of the casino licensee’s MIS department and the Commission.


That RTG owner a year ago told us that only the owners of 4 or 5 RTG online casinos were issued a key that would give them access to the super user program within the software where all changes to the software programs are conducted. He never mentioned anything about needing present another key from a regulatory commission to activate it.

In fact that RTG operator demonstrated in real time how he changed the RTP on the fly for any game he picked within the "Real Series" games software. Even if the change he made was only improving the house hold by 4 percentage points, I had snap shots of these changes being performed within the super user program in real time with the dates and times on the super user program itself proving it being done in real time. One would wonder if the players using that software or server were disconnected (you know that box that pops up and says you were disconnected by an administrator) during his demonstration the 30 seconds it took him to do it. I could only assume their wasn't a regulator present watching him demonstrate this program via the internet.

I did send copies of these shots to Bryan for review when I received them.

 

[Nifty29]

Read through some more of those regulations for server based slot machines in New Jersey and found this regulation also interesting.


The slot machine server will be under dual key control of the casino licensee’s MIS department and the Commission.


That RTG owner a year ago told us that only the owners of 4 or 5 RTG online casinos were issued a key that would give them access to the super user program within the software where all changes to the software programs are conducted. He never mentioned anything about needing present another key from a regulatory commission to activate it.

In fact that RTG operator demonstrated in real time how he changed the RTP on the fly for any game he picked within the "Real Series" games software. Even if the change he made was only improving the house hold by 4 percentage points, I had snap shots of these changes being performed within the super user program in real time with the dates and times on the super user program itself proving it being done in real time. One would wonder if the players using that software or server were disconnected (you know that box that pops up and says you were disconnected by an administrator) during his demonstration the 30 seconds it took him to do it. I could only assume their wasn't a regulator present watching him demonstrate this program via the internet.

I did send copies of these shots to Bryan for review when I received them.

Come on 4OAK. Let's not open that can again.

Bryan has dealt with it previously and I don't want to see the hats handed out again.

 

[4 of a kind]

Come on 4OAK. Let's not open that can again.

Bryan has dealt with it previously and I don't want to see the hats handed out again.

Yes Nifty, you're right. He did get a different explanation from a different RTG operator concerning the coupon default page. (Note: Not a regulators explanation)

Not sure what I was thinking yesterday when I made my last post. Maybe I was just having a quick conspiracy relapse.

Disregarding my relapse post, I think throughout this thread I demonstrated with confirmed facts (posted in thread) to most what it would take for online gaming to become transparent and the dire need for real regulation and real regulation enforcement. If online gaming decides to keep things in the future as they presently are, then you should expect nothing less then another decade of endless conspiracy threads. I then would also try to learn how to cope with and have more "patients" {Adjective: bearing provocation, annoyance, misfortune, delay, hardship, pain, etc., with fortitude and calm and without complaint, anger, or the like} with victims, and scamming players. (since no one is stopping them either)

Over the last couple of years we know that the Kahnawake Gaming Commission has finally decided to take some baby steps in the right direction helping disgruntled punters with issues related to bonuses and payments. It also appears that the UK is also noticing the need for regulation change. That in itself is a great thing, but only half of the online problem. Experienced educated online punters have learned where to play to avoid those types of problems for the most part. Yet, gaming software integrity could only be achieved with real and serious regulation and enforcement as demonstrated by the land based N.J. C.C.C., and the New Jersey Division of Gaming Enforcement.

It would be nice to know that maybe some day in the future, that not only the short list of online gamblers that are members of forums like this knowing where it's best and presently safest to play, but everyone, everywhere, should have the exact same opportunity without having to get screwed first.

When anyone decides to visit Atlantic City in N.J., other then searching out hotel costs, no one is searching to find out which casinos might be fooling around with the software (cheating) or not paying their winners at the cage. That doesn't even cross their minds. It's sad when you stop and think how many online gambling rookies think its the same when they decide to visit and play online.

I rest my argument.

 

[DiamondGeezer]

Read through some more of those regulations for server based slot machines in New Jersey and found this regulation also interesting.


The slot machine server will be under dual key control of the casino licensee’s MIS department and the Commission.


That RTG owner a year ago told us that only the owners of 4 or 5 RTG online casinos were issued a key that would give them access to the super user program within the software where all changes to the software programs are conducted. He never mentioned anything about needing present another key from a regulatory commission to activate it.

In fact that RTG operator demonstrated in real time how he changed the RTP on the fly for any game he picked within the "Real Series" games software. Even if the change he made was only improving the house hold by 4 percentage points, I had snap shots of these changes being performed within the super user program in real time with the dates and times on the super user program itself proving it being done in real time. One would wonder if the players using that software or server were disconnected (you know that box that pops up and says you were disconnected by an administrator) during his demonstration the 30 seconds it took him to do it. I could only assume their wasn't a regulator present watching him demonstrate this program via the internet.

I did send copies of these shots to Bryan for review when I received them.

4OAK this is the most credible explanation I have heard from you on the RTG super user issue and I would not be atall surprised to discover it is exactly as you say. I remember we had the same thing at Rival where they were changing blackjack rules when JHV was playing. And ofcourse there was the Absolute scandal. If you are playing at RTG casinos based in Costa Rica you would be a bit naive IMO if you believe such things are not possible.

That said it is my belief that RTP changes would more likely to be global than for individual accounts but perhaps you know more about that than I do. And I believe groups like Jackpot Capital and Clubworld are too big and successful to need to resort to tactics like this. I also doubt that few others would bother even if they could because I believe it is actually bad for business and will lower their hold in the long run. My guess is they make more money from slots set at 95% than 91% because at 91% they will start to lose too many customers to other casinos.

However if you are a high roller playing in a non accredited RTG then you ought to be concerned. If a Rival could tamper with JHV's account when he was playing for high stakes then why not at RTG? But then again the fact you are playing in an unregulated jurisdiction should also be ringing alarm bells - big time. But most USA players must know this and accept the risks I guess.

4OAK I think you have showed a lot of class in choosing not to play until you can be certain you are getting a fair game. And I applaud and support your call for regulation. If the industry is to prosper then surely the days of Malta and Costa Rica need to come to an end soon before something really bad happens that could set the industry back years like we had with Absolute.

 

[4 of a kind]

Guess I’ll be more specific with details regarding that RTG owner/relationship, and put that also to rest. I might be falling off a cliff here, but after reading DiamondGeezer's post decided it was necessary to make this post and try to clear things up.

I personally didn’t know or ever spoke directly to this RTG casino owner. An x friend of mine (x = no longer a friend of mine since I betrayed him by making this incident public) actually had this personal relationship with an RTG casino owner. My x friend and I were both long time online gamblers and both of us agreed on many topics concerning the lack of integrity within online gaming in all its different forms.

Although being privy to them, I’m unable to get into the details concerning the arrangement my friend and the owner made. Soon afterwards my friend was given a demonstration via skype and then sent me screen shots of it throughout. In time allegedly more information was going to be exposed.

Growing impatient waiting for more information, and with the information I already had received I started to try and corner casino reps in threads using back door tactics concerning game integrity, since I was pretty pissed off. This is when I e-mailed all the reps that were active on this forum and tried to get them to participate in a thread I created. This also is when I became a problem since it would be obvious to some that I was striking a certain nerve with my posts, or at least that’s what I was being told. Through personal conversations I was actually convinced once or twice to retract statements I made in posts. In fact one of my posts were written for me, actually making myself look foolish and I was begged to stay away from making additional posts on that topic. This is also the time when I vanished for awhile from this forum.

I couldn’t wait to break this news and was disappointed with my friend not wanting to act with it. My friend knew I was an advocate for online regulation enforcement and that I was convinced there was corruption being practiced. I also felt there was no need to gather more information since once we publicized the screen shots RTG would be exposed. I’m not sure why my friend would have thought my reaction would have been anything less, but convinced me to remain silent. (At least during that time)

Whether nothing was happening or I was put out of the loop, I crew impatient and decided to then send on my own a few of the screen shots to Bryan for an opinion. Bryan then asked me for my o.k. if he could forward them to a friend at RTG for an opinion. I gave Bryan the O.K. to forward them because personally I really didn’t give a shit about this RTG owner or what may happen to him if he were exposed. If what he said and demonstrated about the software was true, then he was a crook and a scumbag and deserved whatever would happen to him and RTG. If what he said was in fact false then he still was a crook and a scumbag for misleading and stealing from my friend.

A few days after Bryan forwarded those shots to RTG, I was contacted by my friend since he knew the shit hit the fan at RTG, obviously from a conversation he had with the owner sending me a copy of that conversation confirming an investigation being done by RTG and how they knew where the source of the screen shots came from. He knew I was responsible since the screen shots of the super-user program were involved and I was the only other person that had them. Of course I immediately told him everything I did. Not sure how RTG nailed the casino so quick since I was certain to erase any and all identifying names and numbers before sending them to Bryan, and never telling Bryan where I in fact got them from. This is also the time the shit was hitting the fan with the alleged threats of safety.

Although I knew Bryan was going on a vacation for a few weeks when I sent him the screen shots, and did eventually get a brief explanation from Bryan; I wasn’t happy with it and actually wasn’t sure if Bryan was part of what I was thinking was a cover up. I know how foolish those thoughts are, but at this point and with all the chaos that took place, I’m sure anyone else in my shoes would have considered the same.

As time went by and everything was remaining silent, I said screw everybody and everything and posted just the “coupon default” page here with the explanation I was given. We all know what happened from that point on, and how I achieved the Tin Hat award, and eventually got banned for 30 days.

I have no idea what happened to that owner, except only that not long after this incident took place that particular RTG casino is no longer operating under the RTG software brand. Was this a coincidence or a direct result of what took place? I have no idea.

What this owner explained about that “Coupon Default” program made sense, and so did Bryans RTG friends explanation. It’s obvious that my screen shots standing alone could confirm nothing.

The whole problem here is that bullshit like this whole incident could even take place in the first place being a multi-billion dollar industry where trust is an important part of it.

If just this incident alone doesn’t cry out loud for regulation and enforcement, especially when combined with the thousands of negative threads over the years, and numerous presently confirmed rogue operators; you being a volunteer gambler in this type of extremely possible venue could very easily become a victim of foul play.

Just take a minute (actually much longer) and read through those NJCCC gaming regulations and realize the endless requirements needed to be enforced just to protect the integrity of the games, and to keep the operators honest with land based casinos.

Like I said before, based on the regulations in place for land based operators, its obvious the NJCCC couldn’t trust the operators any further then they could spit. And lets not forget it’s just not the owners their worried about, it’s all the employees and technicians that are needed that are hands on contributors that make the whole thing work in the first place. Remember Ronald Harris the Nevada programming technician that altered the source code for slot machines in the early nineties?

I realize there are many people out there other then the operators making money off the backs of online casinos. I also realize there are some proven honest operators along with some big enough to trade publicly. That alone though is not good enough and with no doubt all online casinos should be forced to adhere to the same rules under all circumstances.

With the multi million dollar scandals that were not able to be contained and exposed already within online gaming, should be enough to convince players of their capabilities without regulation enforcement.

Regardless how honest or crooked any one online casino might be known for presently, their options, and the unlimited opportunities for corruption within are endless while operating under the umbrella of “self regulation”.

Sorry, but history proves that gambling being solely implied under the realm of trust, is like trying to mix oil with water.

 

[daveboz]

Read through some more of those regulations for server based slot machines in New Jersey and found this regulation also interesting.


The slot machine server will be under dual key control of the casino licensee’s MIS department and the Commission.


That RTG owner a year ago told us that only the owners of 4 or 5 RTG online casinos were issued a key that would give them access to the super user program within the software where all changes to the software programs are conducted. He never mentioned anything about needing present another key from a regulatory commission to activate it.

In fact that RTG operator demonstrated in real time how he changed the RTP on the fly for any game he picked within the "Real Series" games software. Even if the change he made was only improving the house hold by 4 percentage points, I had snap shots of these changes being performed within the super user program in real time with the dates and times on the super user program itself proving it being done in real time. One would wonder if the players using that software or server were disconnected (you know that box that pops up and says you were disconnected by an administrator) during his demonstration the 30 seconds it took him to do it. I could only assume their wasn't a regulator present watching him demonstrate this program via the internet.

I did send copies of these shots to Bryan for review when I received them.

"In fact that RTG operator demonstrated in real time how he changed the RTP on the fly for any game he picked within the "Real Series" games software. Even if the change he made was only improving the house hold by 4 percentage points, I had snap shots of these changes being performed within the super user program in real time with the dates and times on the super user program itself proving it being done in real time. One would wonder if the players using that software or server were disconnected (you know that box that pops up and says you were disconnected by an administrator) during his demonstration the 30 seconds it took him to do it. I could only assume their wasn't a regulator present watching him demonstrate this program via the internet."

I did send copies of these shots to Bryan for review when I received them.





WOW! When this breaks!

 

[plasticnote]

Great Post. What you have done obvirously have significant meaning to players in a positive way.

If we tolerant on these kinds of "inside dealing" undisclosed, this will be the tomb stone of entire online gaming industry.
No trust so no business.

 

[DiamondGeezer]

Once I was playing at a Rival casino and betting $18.75 a spin on As The Reels Turn for a few wild hare spins. Suddenly right in play my max bet was limited to $7.50. No exit no disconnection. Creepy to think someone could have been watching me, guess it could be an automatic program more likely. But from that moment on I realised that this stuff is possible even if it does require a big leap to start thinking about changing RTP settings.

I still believe RTG is fair and random in the RNG sense but these stories about RTP being configurable to different settings do to me appear credible. Some years ago there was a story doing the rounds that Blackjack was configurable from 4 to 255 decks. This may sound horriffic but I since read that even at 255 decks the HA is not affected that much, I have forgotten the exact details unfortunately. I think the HA was still under 1% with 255 decks. But obviously a 4% change on slots would be a totally different ballpark, especially if the player is on a long bonus playthrough.

I really don't want this discussion to turn sour so do want to restate my position which is I don't have any evidence personally. Certainly nothing like this has ever happened to me on RTG and my playing experiences have been good with some decent wins alongside normal losses.

My position is that if anything like this were to happen then how would anyone get to know about it under the present unregulated setup in Costa Rica? As far as I know there is no RTP monitoring in Costa Rica (hope I am wrong on this!). Which is clearly enough to give doubts. I limit my play to accredited RTP's and when Bryan gave us the assurance about CW operating on 95% that was good enough for me.

Certainly the whole situation is not good as there are a lot of casinos out there and also many players not aware of this forum. Look how long the Absolute scandal ran for before it was detected. US players in particular ought to take this stuff seriously. We can't afford to take the view it will never happen while Costa Rica remains unregulated.

 

[Nifty29]

"In fact that RTG operator demonstrated in real time how he changed the RTP on the fly for any game he picked within the "Real Series" games software. Even if the change he made was only improving the house hold by 4 percentage points, I had snap shots of these changes being performed within the super user program in real time with the dates and times on the super user program itself proving it being done in real time. One would wonder if the players using that software or server were disconnected (you know that box that pops up and says you were disconnected by an administrator) during his demonstration the 30 seconds it took him to do it. I could only assume their wasn't a regulator present watching him demonstrate this program via the internet."

I did send copies of these shots to Bryan for review when I received them.





WOW! When this breaks!

Bryan dealt with this some time ago and has seen it already....and he assessed it as being pretty much a deposit of colonically-processed waste material.

Sorry to burst your bubble Dave.....you'll just have to keep on playing to find more evidence.