Online RTP settings??

[4 of a kind]

One of the major concerns and conversations here are the casinos Return to Player settings (RTP’s).

Regardless how reputable any one online casino may be, their will always be doubts of fair play simply because no one knows for fact how any online casino must operate. We all know or read about how it was in the early days of Las Vegas (1946) when gambling was totally unregulated and under the control of the mob. Las Vegas didn’t become what it is today until the government publicly ridded the mob, and put in place gambling regulations being enforced by regulators.

Without online regulation being shared with everyone and a single online regulatory body where all complaints should be handled (state or country) doubts of online fair play will never end. Online players need to know if the owners given a license to operate are straight up. For all we know it's no different then the early days of Las Vegas. Online players know nothing about any online casino or its operators, except for the couple that trade publicly. Online players have to trust what's being said by third parties that want to remain anonymous. This type of information could never be considered serious regardless who says it is.

Being able to change RTP settings on the fly would be a huge advantage for online casinos. Some say they can, and others say they can't. Some say they have only 3 different settings, some say their choices are endless. No one knows for sure one way or the other, nor could anyone make a confirmed argument one way or the other. All online players have to go by is their own personal experiences, and no one could spin enough on one game to confirm any RTP setting.

Unless regulators report actual monitored monthly RTP settings no one could take what any hired lab reports not knowing for sure what the online casino sent them in the first place serious.

Lowering RTP settings is not a crime and all casinos need this ability to control income especially online. But, players want to know how low is the lowest they can go and what they have to go through in order to make these changes.

Below is a list of regulations that New Jersey must abide by to lower or change their RTP settings. This alone pretty much confirms in New Jersey it can’t be done on the fly.

After reading this can anyone tell me what online casinos must do?



In Atlantic City the payback percentage is 83%. Most slots pay in the neighborhood of 90% over time, but the point here is that regulatory agencies do not allow a casino to flip a switch and change the payback percentage. The regulators want to reliably know that machine #xxxxx will operate in X manner and will pay back X percentage over time. No surprises. No mysteries.

And how do the regulators enforce the rules? Let's look at how the process is handled in New Jersey...

Every RNG in Atlantic City is individually certified and sealed by New Jersey’s Division of Gaming Enforcement. A casino CANNOT change a machine's payback unless the casino does the following...

• The casino makes an application to the DGE.
• The machine is opened under DGE supervision.
• The DGE breaks the processor's seal and supervises the program/chip replacement.
• The DGE creates a new seal, and re-certifies the machine.

The Division of Gaming Enforcement maintains a database of every slot machine in the state of New Jersey. The specific payback percentage of every machine is part of that database. Every RNG is numbered and tracked.

The above procedures are typical for most regulatory agencies throughout the U.S.

 

[Jasminebed]

I know I read a long time ago the rules for Quebec's government run Casinos. They could change any slot only once in a twenty-four hour period, and there were minimum percentages, and an average that had to be adhered to.

My local Ontario Lottery Commission Charity casino has been fined several times for having payouts below the minimum. It was at least 7 times in their first 8 years of operation, and that was a couple of years ago.

Sometimes fines are just the cost of doing business.

RTP and theorhetical RTP are not exactly the same thing. Free chips, cash back, comps, etc, are all part of RTP.

I think most of the time casinos "cheat" is not by adjusting payout, but denying legitimate winnings, delaying payments so frustrated players either give up or play it back, or having complicated rules, or traps such as a penny bonus applied during play.

 

[Diane]

I know I read a long time ago the rules for Quebec's government run Casinos. They could change any slot only once in a twenty-four hour period, and there were minimum percentages, and an average that had to be adhered to.

My local Ontario Lottery Commission Charity casino has been fined several times for having payouts below the minimum. It was at least 7 times in their first 8 years of operation, and that was a couple of years ago.

Sometimes fines are just the cost of doing business.

RTP and theorhetical RTP are not exactly the same thing. Free chips, cash back, comps, etc, are all part of RTP.

I think most of the time casinos "cheat" is not by adjusting payout, but denying legitimate winnings, delaying payments so frustrated players either give up or play it back, or having complicated rules, or traps such as a penny bonus applied during play.

As gamblers we have to accept the fact that we will never know *exactly* what is going on whether its online or in a B&M casino. There is just some blindness that will never see the light. Accept it and understand that its part of "gambling"...........Don't give in to the conspirators -- just accept that you will never know for sure, so why sweat it?

Gambling is gambling.

Diane

 

[threescatters]

As gamblers we have to accept the fact that we will never know *exactly* what is going on whether its online or in a B&M casino.

Couldn't disagree more. i agree that the vast majority of operators operate like this, and wish it to stay that way but look at wagerworks. The RTP of all the slots is clearly displayed in the help files, have you ever heard of someone having a major disagreement with wagerworks that wasnt satisfactorily resolved? Other providers of slot machines should take note of this.

 

[Nifty29]

It's also important to add that it is not possible to tell the RTP of a slot just by playing it....at least, not in the number of spins the average slot player takes.

It would be interesting to put 25 new slots with varying RTPs in front of some slot players and see if they could rank them correctly from worst to best. Not only would it be near impossible to do, even with 5000 spins per slot, but the rankings would vary wildly as some players would be on the up side of the variance pendulum and others would be on the down side.

I totally understand and accept the point that 4OAK consistently makes in regards to regulation of online gaming I.e. the lunatics running the asylum. It very much boils down to trust in both the software provider and the operator, and others like Bryan who have made it their mission to keep the industry honest. If one doesn't think they're getting a fair game, then one should avoid that software or operator. Nobody knows exactly what goes on behind the scenes, so its doubtful that anyone would be able to provide proof that cheating goes on. Alternately, those who believe the major software is fair have data such as audited RTPs and statements from people like Bryan and Mr Shackleford etc that show this to be so. The only thing that those who believe they cheat have to hang their hat on is "I'm not winning enough" or "the dealer gets too many 21s" which doesnt even begin to cut the mustard.

Anyone who seriously thinks they are being cheated should read the article 4oak posted earlier. If they still think they're being cheated after that, then the minute they place their next bet online reduces the credibility of their opinion to zero, as continuing to play a game where you know you're being cheated is very unintelligent at best, and certainly indicates that you don't even subscribe to your own theory.

Personally I give far more creedence to posters like 4oak who question fairness AND stop playing as a result. At least they have the courage of their convictions.

 

[Seventh777]

I was speaking to a slot machine engineer for ages a few years ago, at a local land based casino regarding how much cash had to be pumped through the average slot before it reflected the RTP %, he reliably informed me that there is no set amount, but for accounting and other purposes the guideline is set around the 100k mark, give or take a few thousand either way, this was the average. As experienced only once myself he went on to add, `You could quite possibly come in here and hit two jackpots consecutively, giving you a 10000% RTP, the next player however could experience the complete opposite, but i`m quietly confident that if you want to run £100,000 through it, at the end you will have a return of somewhere between 90-95k`.

So in the nutshell, having monthly audits would give inaccurate RTP`s, unless ofc the amounts the individual slots RTP`s are based on have been reached.

 

[4 of a kind]

So in the nutshell, having monthly audits would give inaccurate RTP`s, unless ofc the amounts the individual slots RTP`s are based on have been reached.

Below are copies of only two A.C. casinos mandatory monthly reports required for all Atlantic City casinos. When you read the slot section on the right column you could see what percentage the casino held for that month. I would guess that the volume these machines take in on a monthly base would be more then enough to give a pretty accurate RTP setting.

Regardless if the RTP's have reached their actual settings or not; following these monthly reports would certainly give me a good idea where I would choose to play slots when visiting.

 

[3mptyseat]

Its not a completely uncommon event that a casino would post monthly losses in slot categories too. All it takes is a huge hit on the high-roller machines, and that can set off win/loss reports for weeks to come... Great post. Variance is a painful truth that most players deal with, whether they know it or not, that second report illustrates that it can be the enemigo of the house too, if not for just a short time. And that is a nice thought.

 

[Simmo!]

There definitely needs to be more transparency in publishing RTP's IMO. Wagerworks/IGT, WMS and Novomatic all publish the RTP's of their online games and it's probably no coincidence that they all come from a land-based background, while Microgaming, Playtech and RTG (for example) don't - and none of those have a land-based history. Ultimately I believe they will suffer as a result when - ultimately - the industry is properly regulaed.

A lot of it is down to the licensing jurisdiction. Judging from what I see, Alderney clearly require online casinos to publish their RTP and IMO all licensing jurisdictions should insist on this.

All that said, a lot of players would refuse to believe it anyway. Gambling incurs losses and as we see here a lot, emotions overrule anything when you lose. Even I have found myself doubting some casinos when I have a bad streak. But I think also, a lot of that is down to how a player perceives a "brand".

For example, if I have a bad streak at 32Red or Bet365 I might get annoyed, but ultimately I put it down to bad luck. And I think many players play at brands they don't know well enough to trust - they just *want* to trust them. I hear over and over that you should never underestimate the importance of brand and this is one instance where I think it's spot on.

If every online casino was, say, a big Vegas casino like MGM, Wynn etc, the RTP's would be clear and I reckon 99% of people here would believe they were getting a fair game.

 

[threescatters]

Simmo I have never been to a big vegas casino like the MGM or Wynn where the RTP on each machine is clearly displayed or am I misinterpreteing your post? Big land based casinos in the US seem to want to hide what the RTP is.

The wizard of odds has a page where he went round a lot of big casinos and calculated the house on some 5c slots and you can use that to draw an idea where the best places to play are, but ive never seen what you say there.

On the other hand, similar slots in UK casinos all clearly display a % that is the minimum it can be set to, usually 94% for casino slots now.

 

[Simmo!]

Simmo I have never been to a big vegas casino like the MGM or Wynn where the RTP on each machine is clearly displayed or am I misinterpreteing your post? Big land based casinos in the US seem to want to hide what the RTP is.

Hi 3scatters - yes sorry, I probably wasn't clear. They don't display them in land-based but I am pretty sure they would online as jurisdictions like Alderney etc insist on it.

 

[3mptyseat]

Couldn't disagree more. i agree that the vast majority of operators operate like this, and wish it to stay that way but look at wagerworks. The RTP of all the slots is clearly displayed in the help files, have you ever heard of someone having a major disagreement with wagerworks that wasnt satisfactorily resolved? Other providers of slot machines should take note of this.

Exactly... Very well said... There is a argument that the 'rigged' complaints are just part of the game, that even in a perfect world those complaints would still be a consistent part of forums like this, but I can't agree with that... I don't ever feel like I am 'cheated' at the B&M. And I certainly don't read about people complaining about IGT's online label WagerWorks... You really don't hear much about crooked MG software either... Thats bc when the company producing the product lives up to a standard of excellence, its easy for the punting public to trust their product...

Spot on with the vast majority of op's wanting the status quo;... Well, at least the one company still doing business with American clientele; RTG is loving this atmosphere, for the right now anyway... A CW rep boasted to me last week that CWC is doing 'better than ever' business and it stands to reason: they are kicking out vips with higher than average win rates and other types of risky depositors and every new gambler to the online world within the US has about 3 choices; An RTG, a domainholdings ltd Sportsbook with a flash casino (games like "slotfather' and 'reel sports'), or 3dice... I mean, for a true newbie, where else is there?... And its all bc the feds booted most every other operator who had enough integrity (or maybe just fear of the feds) to leave...

 

[threescatters]

Hi 3scatters - yes sorry, I probably wasn't clear. They don't display them in land-based but I am pretty sure they would online as jurisdictions like Alderney etc insist on it.

Hi Simmo,

Thanks for clearinig that up! I will have to disagree with you then. The fact they dont display them in their land casino shows me that they dont want to, and why would they want any different if they were online with www.wynncasino.com or something?

Yes the regulator, in this case most likely Nevada/US Government tho, might make them do it, but signs historically point to this not being the case for any US based regulation.

Alderney might insist on it, but they are a joke just now. They let FTP operate outside regulation and they are letting FTP dictate what happens at their "hearing"s, reflects very badly on them.

 

[Seventh777]

It`s not the RTP % that baffles me, but, how does the software decide that it`s payday time for a random player at any given time?. This aspect is a whole lot easier to understand when playing land based slots, a certain slot has been well and truly fed and is fit to burst, you by chance start playing this slot and boom, happy days. Online slots are completely different however, you can be playing that high variance favourite of yours for hours upon hours, triggering free spins every 150-200 spins that yield little more than x5 bet returns, finally giving up the ghost and swapping between all of your fav slots and getting identical results no matter what variance, spin cost, payline amounts etc, etc. and in 99.99% of cases ending up flat broke.

So a few days later you try again, a few spins in and you hit the free spins feature and this happens.....



In open play - those hits you have dreamed of and have spent more time on getting than is healthy........











To name but a few, so, what triggers these hits, that will keep on coming no matter what slot/game you play until you reach that magic figure the software has somehow allotted to you for this session?.

 

[threescatters]

its random bro

 

[Nifty29]

@seventh77

If you think that land based slots pay out according to how "full" they are, or how much play they've had, then you really need to do some reading about how slots work. The land based slots are computer controlled just like online slots. Any difference you claim to see is not really there.

I'm not sure why you, once again, had to fill another thread up with screenies when it is totally irrelevant and inappropriate. Why you don't place them in the screenies thread/s like anyone else I don't know. Is it attention you crave? Or are your screenies more important than anyone else's?

@threescatters

Please stop stating facts. It will get you nowhere.

 

[threescatters]

@threescatters

Please stop stating facts. It will get you nowhere.

pfffff I was giving him a genuine answer to his question, are you a mod here? Do you want me to write an essay to answer him when a few words will do?

Please stop insulting my posts and being a jerk.

 

[Seventh777]

@seventh77

If you think that land based slots pay out according to how "full" they are, or how much play they've had, then you really need to do some reading about how slots work. The land based slots are computer controlled just like online slots. Any difference you claim to see is not really there.

So, when you are playing on land based slots and having no joy on a certain slot, you change slots until you find one that is loose, how does a computer control this aspect on various land based slots?.

I'm not sure why you, once again, had to fill another thread up with screenies when it is totally irrelevant and inappropriate. Why you don't place them in the screenies thread/s like anyone else I don't know. Is it attention you crave? Or are your screenies more important than anyone else's?

I used them to get a point across, a point once again that you overlooked whilst going for the aggressive approach, do you think that your opinions are more important than anyone else`s?, were you bullied at school?.

 

[Nifty29]

pfffff I was giving him a genuine answer to his question, are you a mod here? Do you want me to write an essay to answer him when a few words will do?

Please stop insulting my posts and being a jerk.

I was agreeing with your post and stating that you are pretty much wasting your time as most players don't want to hear it I.e the facts/ truth

I wasn't insulting you at all, but thanks for making it personal in return.

 

[threescatters]

I was agreeing with your post and stating that you are pretty much wasting your time as most players don't want to hear it I.e the facts/ truth

I wasn't insulting you at all, but thanks for making it personal in return.

right I got you, you meant it as a joke. No offence taken from your post and Sorry if I offended you, its not personal bro and I retract my statement. I know you post a lot here I was just surprised a bit is all.

 

[maxd]

I'm not sure why you, once again, had to fill another thread up with screenies when it is totally irrelevant and inappropriate. Why you don't place them in the screenies thread/s like anyone else I don't know. Is it attention you crave? Or are your screenies more important than anyone else's?

Dude, you're moderating again. Please check your PMs.

 

[4 of a kind]

The point I was trying to make in this thread by comparing land based regulated casinos to non regulated online casinos should have been clear.

Just by viewing some of the requirements I posted for land based regulated casinos should have been obvious what it would take for online gaming to finally become honest and transparent.

It should also be obvious to most that after a decade of being unregulated and still today by the amount of honest players endlessly getting screwed one way or another by online gaming, (all over the world) that something needs fixing. Regardless who says how honest and safe they consider their recommendations to be, are wrong and misleading.

I’m not trashing Bryan or this forum in any way; in fact I give them credit for trying to police this cesspool of shit. The problem is any casino could be accredited today yet be in the rogue pit tomorrow. I don’t know about anyone here, but if I finally hit a nice payoff after endless months of losing deposits and was getting screwed over by a casino, then only having Bryan and Max to fall back on; I’m not comfortable knowing that if they can’t negotiate a deal for me, the best I could get out of it is the casino gets a rogue listing. Just take a minute and realize how foolish that actually is.

History proves that unregulated gambling is a dirty business and draws crooks of all sorts to it like flies to a pile of shit.

As for the alleged honest online operators presently out there, (at least for today) shame on you for not doing more about its present condition. Until then you’re no different then the rest of the shit waiting to be pumped out of the cesspool.

It should also be obvious that after over a decade of online gaming history, that the present operators like it just the way it is. Just read any of their T&C’s, and you’ll eventually come across how their decision is final. (Not a regulators)

 

[jod5413]

Good post, 4oak. I would only want to temper your beliefs with the few accredited casinos that are, in my opinion, honest and fair. Not everyone that jumped on board when this all started were crooks. We wouldn't have 32Red, and their sister casinos, we wouldn't have RTGs, like Club World and Inetbet. And there are still some other MG casinos that are run honestly and fairly. But you are right, without regulation, it is a scary game out there.

 

[Papa-ya]

I would like to know what the mechanics truly is behind the "RTP"? For instance you read a casino has a 95% RTP, as an example, what does it actually mean?
Is it a description of an overall of all their games being lumped into one basket to make the house RTP 95%?
Or is is based on the game, whichever one it may be for that magic moment that hits the 95%+ RTP for the day?

If you are playing fewer lines on a multiline slot, how does this affect the RTP, I know the answer is it lowers it, this is not what I want to know, by how much is it lowered, if this is the case. Is it based on docking an RTP point for every line discarded?

I ask this as I have been studying the play on Count Spectacular for instance, not looking for patterns, but trying to get a better idea of what's best, all lines or less lines, as this was the one I hit 5 counts on about 3 months ago, playing 0.01 cent bet per line for 25 lines. The win for this small bet size was $500. A poster stated had I been playing less lines at a higher wager, this play would have paid out much higher, I agree that should be the case.
So from this thought I have been playing no more than 5-10 lines at 0.05-0.10 cent bet per line. Grant it I have had a couple nice little wins this way, but playing the less lines the big wins pretty much vanish.

I have closely watched all the wins that I do miss while playing the fewer lines and they are minimal wins, none of the big higher paying symbols. This is over the 3 month period from the last win.

My thinking, is this maybe how the RTP works, does playing fewer lines effect the higher paying symbols from coming into play, but would like someone to explain the true "mechanics" of RTP.

I asked these questions of the casino I have been playing at and asked for my stats on this one slot for the last 2 months. I was told, the stats could not be provided, but that I had an overall 90.10 rtp. I did not find this a satisfactory answer to my questions.

 

[4 of a kind]

The first thing you have to remember is the moment the machine is plugged in, the Random Number Generator (RNG) is generating different combinations endlessly by the millisecond, even when it's idle and not being played. Based on what the RTP setting for any one machine may be, determines how many numbers the programmer must appoint to each stop. The higher the RTP setting is the more numbers are allotted to paying stops, giving the RNG more opportunities to randomly stop on a win. Of course the lower the RTP settings get the lesser the allotted numbers get assigned to paying stops and the more get allotted to non paying stops or combinations.

The moment you click spin the RNG froze wherever it was, and your outcome regardless how many coins or lines you chose to play was decided at that exact millisecond you clicked spin. Its obvious then, the more you bet the more you would have won. Had your finger slipped off the mouse at that exact moment you would not have hit the win. The RNG don’t know or care how many coins you bet. By hitting 5 counts you obviously could have won the maximum jackpot allowed had you been betting more. That hit is the hardest one to spike on that game, and the RNG probably allots only one number for the count on most of the reels. The odds of getting all five to hit at the same time must be millions to one.

The exact algebra involved with setting RNG’s gets a little complicated. Today I read an interesting article on RNG’s but left the magazine at my office. I’ll post it tomorrow for you to read since it’ll explain it much better then I could.

In addition I would like to add that what I say above is based on land based casinos. Not sure if online is exactly the same. Like I said earlier no one knows for sure how anything works online as a matter of fact.