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silcnlayc

Just one more spin pleez!
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Location
Left Hungary
jamie: Hi Silcnlayc ,

I apologize for not spelling your name correctly in a post on down the line here . I wrote it down and couldn't read my own writing and now I understand what you name is actually saying !! I am getting old , but should have caught that one right away !

I agree with all you say . I have really wished I could find an online casino which I could trust completely and be happy and comfortable with , but is just not to be as far as I can tell at this time . I much prefer to just stay here in the comfort of my own home and play without all of that noise and obnoxious smoke . I do miss those good times very much .

Hope this is an exceptional year for you ,
Jamie
Not a problem at all with the name thing...It has been contorted in many ways except the right one..so I always tell forum members just to call me "silc" for short :rolleyes:

I hope you also have an exceptional year in whatever you choose to do or follow...

4 of a kind : Also Silcnlayc, not sure why you said you would behave. I didn't see you step out of line anywhere.
I almost derailed the thread with all my excitement over the screenies.... :D ...thats what I meant when I said I will try to behave and not get so rambunctious like this --->... :yahoo:
.
 

nitro

Banned User - multiple forum accounts - psychotic
Joined
Aug 3, 2009
Location
DE
All in all the perpetrators of the UIGEA would be quietly satified to read of gamblers becoming disillusioned I suspect.

The net effect of UIGEA are increased revenues for the B&M establishments in the US and this thread is the proof.
 

Mavin1

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Location
Arizona
OMG! You do know how to make me chuckle! You are absolutely right! No one says they are cheating, they have just "tweaked" the fun factor in the games to where the fun went out the window...no one is undertsanding this...all we are getting is stats this and that and stop playing etc..well..guess what, I have! ..

I will no longer deposit as I have before...and it was a nice sum...but again..I won't bitch and moan either anymore because I know what I know..and if others want to fight a losing battle..so be it..or believe what they are being fed...then caveat to all that are believing what they are being fed.
.


Gotta go along with you there, they will not get my micro deposits anymore either, of course they don't care about mine :D.
I hear ya on the losing battle thing too and I ditto that!
 

silcnlayc

Just one more spin pleez!
PABaccred
PABnonaccred
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Location
Left Hungary
Nitro:The net effect of UIGEA are increased revenues for the B&M establishments in the US and this thread is the proof.
Not really...I would have continued my play at online casinos just as I always had until the "unprovable" changes that they have done in the past reared it's ugly head a few years ago...JMO...

These casinos could have reaped some huge sums from the USA players and rode the wave until the change came...but now, it has backfired IMO...greed got to them or something...because I know I am not alone in "knowing" in gut feeling.. these things and refusing to follow the herd that they mesmerized into continuing to deposit there....

.
 

oldtrvlagt

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
Location
Iowa
I understand completely the viewpoints of this thread. I have done my fair share of bitching and moaning and groaning over WR's, max cashouts, slow payments, bonus banning,etc, etc. I have to admit though, in 2009 we've won more online that at B & M's and we've been at quite a few. Everywhere from Sequim,Washington, Cali, Arizona, Reno,Laughlin, New Mexico, Mohegan Sun (Connecticut & Pennsylvania), Mississippi, Iowa, South Dakota, and Florida. The biggest wins were in Laughlin (other than online). The first 6 or 7 months of the year were great...the last not so much. I just had a decent win at a Rival but that doesn't make up for the losses. We get tons of comps in the mail and are heading to Florida towards the end of the month to collect on a few. I have no illusion about winning...the luck is either there or it isn't. I do agree about not putting all "your eggs in one basket"..I do jump around and for me it pays off...online and at B & M's....it is just the nature of the beast. You need to know that and remember it and not chase it.
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
I usually show more restraint online that I do at the B&Ms.

I live in Ontario the good where the government runs most of the casinos, with about 82percent payback on the penny slots, and many of those penny slots are a dollar or more to play for progressives. And most of them give pretty poor comps, although cashback is better than online. I've boycotted Thousand Island Charity Casino for almost 6 years now, ever since they refused to comp me a 1.99 breakfast after playing for 7 hours and losing 1K.

I love Casino Rama, a native run casino near Orilla. They are generous with meals, shows and rooms. Cashback is about 10x what online generally is, and usually you receive a "bonus cash" offer that is good for a limited time to come back. But 8 hour return trip by bus means a whole day away (which can be a very good thing) and if I lose $100 in 1/2 hour, it's 5 1/2 hours to put in.

A lot of the time, I look at a $20 online deposit like putting $20 in a slot. I don't always expect or get much playtime on that particular $20. But sometimes I do hit, and when I do, I usually manage a withdrawal. In person, with the sound, the excitement and the length of time I am there for, a win is just spent to play more. But I know if I ever hit a really big one, that I am paid on the spot and there is no BS about weekly limits, or angst ridden waiting while documents are re-submitted.

I've been gambling pretty much since I was old enough to count. I don't expect I'll stop. I've learnt a few lessons the hard way, and I manage to stay within my budget.

This Casinomeister forum has made me a smarter online gambler (not to be confused with a WINNING online gambler), and I've found some highly reputable places to play.

That said, every withdrawal wait-time is beset with a low-level of anxiety. I don't leave funds in casino accounts or Moneybookers for long.

But I've had a return to health, and a big online win and VEGAS BABY VEGAS!! It would be great to play landbased slots at decent RTPs.
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
PABinit
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
Why the heck are we limited on the thank you's we can pass out in a day? I keep running out!

Thank you 4 of a Kind!!!!!!!!:thumbsup:

Simmo, I knew there was a real person under that blue hand puppet!!!!! :thumbsup:


For Gloria460 Big Thumbs up for you too!!!!!! :thumbsup:

Use the scales if you find a post you find a post worthy of you doing so.
 

gloria460

Dormant Account
Joined
May 11, 2008
Location
Florida
Personally I believe every site in one form or another are applying unethical tactics. Why or how can proven rogue casinos still have a license to operate, or even find a software provider willing to support them?

If a land based casino were caught stealing from their customers it would become one of the biggest news stories all over the world.

That's one of the main problems that I have with casinos. Bryan has a rogue pit that is astounding. How in the hell do you get that many rogues and they are still in business or are allowed to be rebranded using reputable software...makes ya go hmmmm.

OMG!
I will no longer deposit as I have before...and it was a nice sum...but again..I won't bitch and moan either anymore because I know what I know..and if others want to fight a losing battle..so be it..or believe what they are being fed...then caveat to all that are believing what they are being fed.

That's what I've already done regarding depositing. I look into the folder on my desktop and I really don't want to play any of them anymore. It really did used to be about the excitement, entertainment, thrill of the win or big win, hitting the bonus, etc...now when I hit the bonus round I do not get excited as I know the result already so I feel my online days are numbered. Who wants to win .52 or 1.62 on a bonus round betting 90 cents per spin.
.

. We get tons of comps in the mail and are heading to Florida towards the end of the month to collect on a few.

Stop by and we'll head out to Hardrock in Tampa. I live inbetween Tampa and Orlando...twentyfive minutes in either direction...lol

A lot of the time, I look at a $20 online deposit like putting $20 in a slot. I don't always expect or get much playtime on that particular $20.

Ya know that statement says a lot. Have we all become brainwashed into accepting this level of low paying? You lowroll for 50 cent and hit 4 of a kind and they pay you back 32 cents. you hit 3 and they give you 4 cents. five of a kind might pay a $1.00 and it's gone in two spins. Oh boy, this is really entertaining.
 

Bencuri

Experienced Member
PABnononaccred
Joined
May 13, 2009
Location
Hungary
Ive been reading thread after thread, about endless online casino complaints. I would have to guess that negative threads here out post positive ones by 4 to 1. No doubt this is a place to get real time information on current events along with critical information needed if youre willing to even risk your money gambling in cyberspace..

My views are a bit different from this. When I read your opinions I was quite sure about that you are from the US. However it is totally understandable. I commented in a forum recently that the casino groups that recently allow Americans haven't got as good offers, features, game settings as those who don't. And I think this is because having no other choice americans have to choose these, so these groups can plunder the wallets of the USA players they way they like, having no competitors. Like in a monopoly situation. That is what I think of Rival and Top game for example. And in this situation no wonder you have this opinion. Moreover you have Las Vegas and other B&M with long history.

On the other I am allowed to play in most casinos, and personally I experienced many good developement in the casinos and casino groups I play at. I mostly play at the William Hill Group, and I was also a player in Crown Solution Gaming casinos before William Hill purchased them. I liked their bonuses in the past. They offered bonuses with high match percentages very often, like 100%-200% with low WR, like 10x, or 11x. I wondered how they could offer these bonuses, and I thought soon it will be ended, so it was a great surprise when it just became even better when William Hill purchased them, kept the low WR multiplier, and added every game as allowed, even roulette. And now they removed the cash-out limit as well, so winning large jackpots is not a problem any more regarding withdrawals. And this renewed system now reflects in the older Crown soultion gaming casinos as well. And besides William Hill casinos - also offering good bonuses - appeared, like Expekt, or Grande Vegas, an RTG, that allows roulette play with bonus, that is very rare at RTG.

In my country there are very few B&M casinos, and here there are no special comp points given, you just enter the casino, play, and leave. If you drink or eat, that is also paid by you. Most people here who gamle on machines play in pubs on slots machines, that have terrible pay out, not very favourable paytable, and many times you can't even be sure what the bonus feature is about. And there is no manual to check it. In these circumstances for me online casinos are much better alternative then B&M casinos. Way much better! Especiall when I consider that they give free money as bonus, I don't have to wait long for a roulette spin, and I can play from the comfort of my home any time I wish, even on cold days. I also agree that it would be better to get bonuses with no playthrough, or with 1x WR, but compared to other possibilities in my country, online casinos are the best choice for me recently. And if I add to this those good changes, from which I also mentioned some above, I can say personally I am satisfied. My opinion is still that players can still find some good casinos -provided they do not live in a restricted area, like the USA -, where the WR is not high, and the bonus rules are good, the comp points mean real cash, and the game features are friendly (like no bet required roulette spin, etc...). For example I have just received no strings attached no deposit bonus for New Year from Eurogrand. So it seems excetions in the good sense exist!

My opinion regarding the rogue casinos is same as those who had already commented. That problem should be solved somehow...

You also wrote that the situation can get better in the US only in case the good B&M brands appear online. I always wanted to know why they are not online yet? Can somebody answer it? It is quite odd they are not online. There is example that B&M casinos in other countries go online as well. Like Grosvenor casino, the partner casino of Blue Square. They are originally a B&M group in the UK, but now Grosvenor is online as well. Why is it not a practice in the US? I guess because of that ban, but before the ban why wasn't there efforts to make the big US brands online as well?:confused:
 

Simmo!

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
You also wrote that the situation can get better in the US only in case the good B&M brands appear online...Why is it not a practice in the US? I guess because of that ban, but before the ban why wasn't there efforts to make the big US brands online as well?:confused:

Before my time, but two of the Vegas groups did try online but it failed for whatever reason. Caesars Palace has just launched in the UK, but no-one will launch to the US market until regulations are in place I suspect. Too much to risk.
 

silcnlayc

Just one more spin pleez!
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Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Location
Left Hungary
Originally Posted by Jasminebed
A lot of the time, I look at a $20 online deposit like putting $20 in a slot. I don't always expect or get much playtime on that particular $20.

gloria460: Ya know that statement says a lot. Have we all become brainwashed into accepting this level of low paying? You lowroll for 50 cent and hit 4 of a kind and they pay you back 32 cents. you hit 3 and they give you 4 cents. five of a kind might pay a $1.00 and it's gone in two spins. Oh boy, this is really entertaining.
It does say a lot...many HAVE accepted this which is very sad...

.
 

Mavin1

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Location
Arizona
My views are a bit different from this. When I read your opinions I was quite sure about that you are from the US. However it is totally understandable. I commented in a forum recently that the casino groups that recently allow Americans haven't got as good offers, features, game settings as those who don't. And I think this is because having no other choice americans have to choose these, so these groups can plunder the wallets of the USA players they way they like, having no competitors. Like in a monopoly situation. That is what I think of Rival and Top game for example. And in this situation no wonder you have this opinion. Moreover you have Las Vegas and other B&M with long history.
Finally!!! Thank you Bencuri for your point of view and perspective on this subject.
This is what we need to be discussing now that the blockades and barriers of the previous explainations are not being thrown up at us.
There is something very different in online casinos offered to the US market maybe compared to the rest of the world.
It would be interesting to maybe have a poll on this subject and see if the majority of the complaints are from us in the US.
I don't claim to know to much about the UIGEA and all, but the playing experience since this has definately changed.
Take for instance Microgamming, one day we log in to play Tzunami or some other progressive and find they are gone, why? Is there a problem with what the US regulations are allowing us to win now?
Then we are deprived of new games from the same group.
While this is going on our few other casino groups we can play at have tightened up to a very noticeable degree in many aspects as well.
I don't know if having a poll would be beneficial in any way, but it certainly would be interesting to get a picture of where the greater amount of the complaints are coming from.
 

gloria460

Dormant Account
Joined
May 11, 2008
Location
Florida
That's an excellent idea about the poll but it needs to reflect bonus offers and wr requirements as I'm surprised about these low wr and nd offers to non USA players. I just hope that people would cooperate.

You know I've been thinking about this for awhile now and didn't know if I wanted to spend a lot of time building a website about mcg and the changes they have made without telling their existing players nor new players. I will also expand this to rogue rtg, rivals, playtech, etc. as soon as I get my computer back or I may have to buy a new CPU and reload everything which is going to be a first class pain.
 

nitro

Banned User - multiple forum accounts - psychotic
Joined
Aug 3, 2009
Location
DE
You also wrote that the situation can get better in the US only in case the good B&M brands appear online. I always wanted to know why they are not online yet? Can somebody answer it? It is quite odd they are not online. There is example that B&M casinos in other countries go online as well. Like Grosvenor casino, the partner casino of Blue Square. They are originally a B&M group in the UK, but now Grosvenor is online as well. Why is it not a practice in the US? I guess because of that ban, but before the ban why wasn't there efforts to make the big US brands online as well?:confused:

The most plausible theory: Because of their arrogance they didn't care about the internet thing and once it started to hurt UIGEA appeared on the scene.
 

Bencuri

Experienced Member
PABnononaccred
Joined
May 13, 2009
Location
Hungary
Finally!!! Thank you Bencuri for your point of view and perspective on this subject.
This is what we need to be discussing now that the blockades and barriers of the previous explainations are not being thrown up at us.
There is something very different in online casinos offered to the US market maybe compared to the rest of the world.
It would be interesting to maybe have a poll on this subject and see if the majority of the complaints are from us in the US.
I don't claim to know to much about the UIGEA and all, but the playing experience since this has definately changed.
Take for instance Microgamming, one day we log in to play Tzunami or some other progressive and find they are gone, why? Is there a problem with what the US regulations are allowing us to win now?
Then we are deprived of new games from the same group.
While this is going on our few other casino groups we can play at have tightened up to a very noticeable degree in many aspects as well.
I don't know if having a poll would be beneficial in any way, but it certainly would be interesting to get a picture of where the greater amount of the complaints are coming from.

Personally I don't know what can be the best method for making statistics. But surely it would reveal a lot. For example then it might become understandable why at many affiliate web forum it is still popular to share the coupons of infamous, rogue casinos. They are also among the few that allow USA players, so the charm is strong.

The most plausible theory: Because of their arrogance they didn't care about the internet thing and once it started to hurt UIGEA appeared on the scene.

But i just can't understand why the arrogance, when it could have meant a new market for them, couldn't it? And who the hell in business is not desiring for open markets?
 

nitro

Banned User - multiple forum accounts - psychotic
Joined
Aug 3, 2009
Location
DE
But i just can't understand why the arrogance, when it could have meant a new market for them, couldn't it? And who the hell in business is not desiring for open markets?

The problem is they're 10-15 years too late in this "open market" and have next to no experience with it so UIGEA is probably the best solution for Vegas & Co to deal with the "internet gambling problem".
 

vegetagirl2008

Mafia Wars Level 472
Joined
May 10, 2008
Location
Brooklyn, New York, United States
I tell you one thing I will be making my trips to the B & M casinos from now on. I am tired every other week I am wasting $400 dollars playing online and have nothing to show for it. I uninstalled every casino and added them to my recycle bin. I am tired of playing online. To the rest good luck. :)
 

felicie

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Location
somewhere else
I respectfully disagree, in this business there will always be more losers than winners, so it stands to reason there will always be more negative views on internet gambling forums than positive ones.

Casinos have no reason to cheat, believe it or not they actually want you to have some success now and again, because they know they will get it back in the long run.

Regarding B&M casinos many players I have noticed are harking back to the good old days of them, but the reality is the grass is not greener over there. For starters many B&M players will be just occassional players who want to have an evening out, so naturally win or lose they will remember the entertainment factor. In a B&M casino you actually have to move your body now and again, such as going to the toilets, going to the bar or chatting with a friend. Online everything is much faster, you don't even have to wait to get on a table or a slot. So the actual spins/hands played in an average B&M session will be less than online, thus minimising your exposure to risk.

Gambling involves risk, but also enjoyment so it is a shame so many players feel like they are being cheated out of their hard earned cash. I have always been of the opinion if I ever felt cheated then I would take up another hobby altogether.

Mike

I agree with most of what you say but there's always going to be cheaters and thinking casinos wont because there is no reason well that's just self denial because we don't want to think they would. ? Cheaters don't need a reason they're just dishonest scumbags that do it because they can and they do it in every aspect of their lives most likely whether its in school, at work or passing the plate in church.

And after 50 years living a few hours drive from Vegas, I can't say I remember ever hearing that this casino was rogue or that one gives you the best honest deal. The basic feeling was that good decent hardworking people had more important things to do with their money and the whole idea was just too risky and frivolous. A fool and his money are soon parted kind of thing. And maybe that is why americans complain at a higher rate also because gambling whether online or in town is a relatively new form of entertainment for a hell of a lot of us. I don't know the figures on that but I'm sure one of us here does so will look forward to that, no sarcasm intended.

The bottom line with me is that I like to play and I love to win but casinos should never mistake my politeness or kindness for stupidity because I'm on to their bogus bonus plans and 'free chips' which do just that (free us from our chips)duh and I'm sure as hell aware of the lying, cheating scumbags that somehow worm their way to the top of the most prestigious lists, but in time doesn't pond scum just dry up and disappear? (I'm pretty sure more than one of us knows the details on that also);)

Whew I feel better - thanks for starting this one 4 of a kind :thumbsup:
 

Mavin1

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Location
Arizona
I also think its time for online players to really understand what it is youre up against when risking your money in cyberspace. (At least in my view) Mavin1 has an active thread running named Exterminating of the low-roller which I found very interesting, and reveals many of the current concerns for many online players, and prompted me to create this thread. Although its an interesting topic its a true sign of online players not understanding where they really stand when in cyberspace.


This part of your statement 4 of a Kind, has been bugging me for a bit so I will have to chime in on it after having thought it over.
People seem to think because many of us don't talk tech and know the inner workings of a computers programming that we don't understand what we are up against in "cyberspace", we actually we do to enough of a degree to know when we have been getting a good product we continue to buy it, be it via the internet or at a phsical shop. When you have been buying this same product for "9 years" and it is different now than it was in the beginning, for instance the size of the package is smaller, the contents are less, the ingredients are mostly artificial but now you are paying twice as much for this product that was a quality natural product for many years but now is like genetically modified, believe me, you know the difference.

Online casinos now put me in mind of the movie "Mars Attacks" with Jack Nicholson, where the little martians are running after everyone saying "Stop, we come in peace, while they are disentegrating these same people". Many people keep believing and "trusting" them no matter what they do.
:axeman:
There just comes a point when people say enough already and would just like to find out why.
 

Wildfire7

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 8, 2006
Location
UK
[gloria460:]
Ya know that statement says a lot. Have we all become brainwashed into accepting this level of low paying? You lowroll for 50 cent and hit 4 of a kind and they pay you back 32 cents. you hit 3 and they give you 4 cents. five of a kind might pay a $1.00 and it's gone in two spins. Oh boy, this is really entertaining.

How is not reading and understanding a paytable brainwashing? These kind of examples you have highlighted in dramatic fashion are clearly examples from 25 line + slots. There will always be a trade off for a low paying base game, such as 2 or 3 features, expanding wilds, side jackpots etc.

Your suggestion is players are behaving like Pavlovs dog and are somehow conditioned to poor results. Players make the decisions on what games to play, where to play, how much to bet, and where they will continue to play. If your losses are piling up dont blame classical conditioning as the real answers may well lie within.

Mike
 

silcnlayc

Just one more spin pleez!
PABaccred
PABnonaccred
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Location
Left Hungary
Wildfire7:players make the decisions on what games to play, where to play, how much to bet, and where they will continue to play.
Curious to know if you read EVERY paytable on EVERY game you play?

I know I do not. I click on a game to PLAY not read...I sometimes do not even look at the bonus rounds on the new games because I like to be #1) surprised when I hit it #2) to see if I can pick out the bonus triggers/scatters etc..I enjoy my guessing game while spinning..

So not everyone religiously reads each and every payline until they get BURNED after playing the same game for years and know the payouts by heart and then boom..it no longer pays what it used too..but not knowing the paytable there is no proof except for experience which doesn't count anymore I am told.....that is the way I play 95% of the time knowing what should be and shouldn't be..If I do not like what I get, I leave and move on and never play it again..

I have quite a few on my list I have stopped playing and haven't been back for years to this day..

Not everyone plays the same so assuming they do OR should is just the same is another assumption....IMO...What you think is the right way to play might not be anothers..

.
 

Wildfire7

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 8, 2006
Location
UK
Curious to know if you read EVERY paytable on EVERY game you play?

I know I do not. I click on a game to PLAY not read...I sometimes do not even look at the bonus rounds on the new games because I like to be #1) surprised when I hit it #2) to see if I can pick out the bonus triggers/scatters etc..I enjoy my guessing game while spinning..

So not everyone religiously reads each and every payline until they get BURNED after playing the same game for years and know the payouts by heart and then boom..it no longer pays what it used too..but not knowing the paytable there is no proof except for experience which doesn't count anymore I am told.....that is the way I play 95% of the time knowing what should be and shouldn't be..If I do not like what I get, I leave and move on and never play it again..

I have quite a few on my list I have stopped playing and haven't been back for years to this day..

Not everyone plays the same so assuming they do OR should is just the same is another assumption....IMO...What you think is the right way to play might not be anothers..

.
Yes I do read the paytables, and any games I haven't played such as new releases I will trial them out on freeplay first. Personally I have found reading the paytables invaluable. As this will help me decide which games best suit my current bankroll, and the level of optimum betting.

Slots may well be random Silcnlayc, but my point is players still have some leverage over how they play the games.

Mike
 

silcnlayc

Just one more spin pleez!
PABaccred
PABnonaccred
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Location
Left Hungary
Wildfire7: Yes I do read the paytables, and any games I haven't played such as new releases I will trial them out on freeplay first. Personally I have found reading the paytables invaluable. As this will help me decide which games best suit my current bankroll, and the level of optimum betting.

Slots may well be random Silcnlayc, but my point is players still have some leverage over how they play the games.

Mike
Ok, you got me grinning like a cat here because you just said 2 opposing things...you cannot have random slots and then plan on how to win them...because there is no plan ....it is random...or did I miss something here???

That is why I play like I do...cause it is randomly ;)

(Still smiling) just because...:D

.
 

Wildfire7

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 8, 2006
Location
UK
Ok, you got me grinning like a cat here because you just said 2 opposing things...you cannot have random slots and then plan on how to win them...because there is no plan ....it is random...or did I miss something here???

That is why I play like I do...cause it is randomly ;)

(Still smiling) just because...:D

.
Who said anything on planning how to win them? All I said was choices I make such as choosing a game to suit the bankroll, and the optimum bet level, will give me an opportunity to maximise my entertainment value.
That was what you missed in my previous commentary.

Mike
 

jamie

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 26, 2009
Location
Mineral Wells , Texas
Players Casino

Perhaps what we need is one large casino owned by those of us players who want true random generators and absolutely fair gaming !!?? Might as well have our own Casino and cut out the greed and underhanded tactics . If we only made a couple of hundred dollars profit each /mos. off of our venture , that would be more than we have now .

Just a thought ,

Jamie
 
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