North Korea and US politics

[slotplayer]

Can't believe this thread is still going... over a year later. Haven't read it in months and don't intend too. Good luck all!

You ever see the movie Ground Hog Day?

 

[Harry_BKK]

.....

Apparently john mccain scuppered the healthcare reform and paul ryan was also obstructing it, I don't think there was much wrong with Trump's campaign promises/ideas: withdraw troops and stop getting involved in pointless ME wars, stop mass illegal immigration [building that wall] to reduce crime and other social problems from increasing (homelessness, unemployment etc..) try to bring back and restore some of the manufacturing bases, renegotiate nafta and scrap tpp, reform the healthcare system, improve relations with russia...they're the main ones I heard and read about.

Some of these are traditional left wing policies, when there used to be trade tariffs the worker's unions didn't complain as they knew it protected their jobs, the removal of tariffs through nafta cost thousands of working class and middle americans their jobs and livelihood. All that has happened in the last twenty years is the top 1% have become much wealthier, the income divide is the greatest it's ever been in countries like the US and UK.

Conveniently the democrats have moved from focusing on their previous core voters, blue collar workers etc.. onto identity politics and open borders, which suits the 1% fine.

If the media you respect so much concentrated on criticising trump re not doing enough on education and training, too many tax cuts for the rich, damage to the physical environment from fracking, arm sales to saudi etc.. I'd have more respect for them but they're not really bothered about these issues based on how much time or emphasis they place on them say compared to that border wall debate.

People are slowly waking up to the lying media, at which point politics becomes interesting again as everyone has to make up their own minds, which is what they did in those two big voting events...

Emphasis is on "promises", plain empty promises because so far he has achieved nothing and that while he controlled WH and Congress for two years. What a deal maker!

- withdraw troops and stop getting involved in pointless ME wars - Mr. T has done nothing, nada, it is actually worse than in 2016, except for having taken back the captured territories from ISIS (which was done according to a plan from the Obama administration).
- stop mass illegal immigration [building that wall] to reduce crime and other social problems from increasing (homelessness, unemployment etc..) - under Mr. T the numbers have grown to the highest level in 12 years
- try to bring back and restore some of the manufacturing base - where are the achievements? Do you really think creating coal and steel jobs is so great?
- renegotiate nafta and scrap tpp - Mr. T...."the worst deal" on both and "I will get a better deal" and "We will do bilateral deals" - How many has he done? The only way he negotiates is by imposing tariffs and threatening sanctions
- reform the healthcare system - Where is the "beautiful" healthcare?
- improve relations with Russia - no improvement whatsoever
- ......list by far not complete, in all cases Mr. T has done nothing of substance. He's only been successful where he was able to issue executive orders, something he blasted previous administrations for. Just think of that, for two years he had full control of the WH and Congress yet he still had to issue executive orders. Again, that is some deal maker, geez

- Next is a "phenomenal" trade deal with the UK - which will be only phenomenal for the US if you look at the draft document Lightizer handed over some time ago.

NAFTA cost but also created jobs. The net number varies between positive and negative numbers, based on who you ask. The US was shifting already towards a services economy at the start of the 90s. NAFTA might have accelerated that slightly but the mistake what a few administrations made is that they did not spend more on education so people can get trained for the "new kind" of jobs.

You can google and read up on how many jobs have been lost to automation. The NAFTA numbers totally pale in comparison.

Where did I say I respect the media "so much"? The points you brought up have been discussed ad absurdum in the media. The latest is this:

"President Donald Trump's administration approved the transfer of nuclear technical expertise to Saudi Arabia twice after the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi" - so Mr T is ready to go to war with Iran over nuclear proliferation, yet supplies it to the Saudis as if they are more reliable or responsible people. Fact is, Iran has not directly attacked a country or started a war whereas SA has.

 

[Harry_BKK]

duplicate post.

 

[Harry_BKK]

This popped up on my Youtube feed.

Epic moments with clueless Mr. T

 

[mack341]

Emphasis is on "promises", plain empty promises because so far he has achieved nothing and that while he controlled WH and Congress for two years. What a deal maker!

- withdraw troops and stop getting involved in pointless ME wars - Mr. T has done nothing, nada, it is actually worse than in 2016, except for having taken back the captured territories from ISIS (which was done according to a plan from the Obama administration).
- stop mass illegal immigration [building that wall] to reduce crime and other social problems from increasing (homelessness, unemployment etc..) - under Mr. T the numbers have grown to the highest level in 12 years
- try to bring back and restore some of the manufacturing base - where are the achievements? Do you really think creating coal and steel jobs is so great?
- renegotiate nafta and scrap tpp - Mr. T...."the worst deal" on both and "I will get a better deal" and "We will do bilateral deals" - How many has he done? The only way he negotiates is by imposing tariffs and threatening sanctions
- reform the healthcare system - Where is the "beautiful" healthcare?
- improve relations with Russia - no improvement whatsoever
- ......list by far not complete, in all cases Mr. T has done nothing of substance. He's only been successful where he was able to issue executive orders, something he blasted previous administrations for. Just think of that, for two years he had full control of the WH and Congress yet he still had to issue executive orders. Again, that is some deal maker, geez

- Next is a "phenomenal" trade deal with the UK - which will be only phenomenal for the US if you look at the draft document Lightizer handed over some time ago.

NAFTA cost but also created jobs. The net number varies between positive and negative numbers, based on who you ask. The US was shifting already towards a services economy at the start of the 90s. NAFTA might have accelerated that slightly but the mistake what a few administrations made is that they did not spend more on education so people can get trained for the "new kind" of jobs.

You can google and read up on how many jobs have been lost to automation. The NAFTA numbers totally pale in comparison.

Where did I say I respect the media "so much"? The points you brought up have been discussed ad absurdum in the media. The latest is this:

"President Donald Trump's administration approved the transfer of nuclear technical expertise to Saudi Arabia twice after the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi" - so Mr T is ready to go to war with Iran over nuclear proliferation, yet supplies it to the Saudis as if they are more reliable or responsible people. Fact is, Iran has not directly attacked a country or started a war whereas SA has.

Will reply in greater detail when I get a chance but my point regarding saudi arabia was specifically on the arm sales, I have not seen much criticism on the main anti trump media outlets compared to other issues they berate him on, they are more interested in immigration/open borders and driving the russia collusion narrative.

I did say a while back if there was another way to deal with the illegal immigration problem other than a wall, when that seemed to enrage the left, then he should try that. This tariff threat against mexico could work, it's about time mexico sorted itself out, they are tolerating the corruption from the drug trade as it brings in money, this corruption and lawlessness is one of the reasons the people want to get out of there...

 

[Harry_BKK]

Will reply in greater detail when I get a chance but my point regarding saudi arabia was specifically on the arm sales, I have not seen much criticism on the main anti trump media outlets compared to other issues they berate him on, they are more interested in immigration/open borders and driving the russia collusion narrative.

I did say a while back if there was another way to deal with the illegal immigration problem other than a wall, when that seemed to enrage the left, then he should try that. This tariff threat against mexico could work, it's about time mexico sorted itself out, they are tolerating the corruption from the drug trade as it brings in money, this corruption and lawlessness is one of the reasons the people want to get out of there...

The media goes after the biggest story of the day because the attention span of viewers/readers/listeners has shortened dramatically in the last two decades.

FYI, the democrats built more barriers than then republicans. Please research better. The left is "enraged" as you say it because a medieval wall will achieve little. Obama was the deporter-in-chief. So if you actually look at the true facts, you will see that Mr. T is simply lying again, as always.

The drug trade is only as big as the demand from.....guess, guess, guess.... the USA. So, Mr. T could do something there, couldn't he? But roiling against other nations and threatening all kinds of stuff, e.g. tariffs, closing border, cut funding etc. goes better down with his fans.

The people coming now to the border enter Mexico legally because there is no visa required between the countries. Changing that would be akin asking you to get a visa when you travel to Spain or France.

As for the migrants, everyone, really everyone, can claim asylum in a country, that is part of the UN Declaration of Human Rights. Again, changing that would have massive consequences. So, the people coming have a right to have their case heard.

As for illegal aliens, Mr. T's administration purposely turns people back and restricts access at the points of entry, which is forcing them to try it in between. Mr. T knows that very well, but he wants to be able to call them "illegal immigrants", hence, he keeps upping the restrictions at entry points.

Now, the numbers will only grow because the current situation will only get worse. You will not stop them until something is done in their country that will improve their lives. Trust me, nobody wants to leave home. I know it because I left my birth country at the age of 15.

I can also tell you why the numbers are surging. One of the main factors is that word is spreading around that the US will close its borders/make it harder to go in/apply for asylum/immigrant status etc. So people rush before it is too late. I experienced a similar situation in Romania, people tried like crazy to leave in the 80s because rumours were spread that Germany will stop allowing people of German descent like me to imigrate.

 

[goatwack]

I think the point here is that this was a very cack-handed populist rallying cry by Trump to appeal to a demographic fed up with decades-old immigration problems.

It's naive to assume every person attempting to illegally enter another country is a dreamer in search of a better life and/ or escaping persecution. There will and always has been major criminal elements exploiting slack border controls. The media will have you believe that not a single migrant is being opportunistic, so good luck getting a balanced portrayal there.

Yet surely this ancient problem has to be tackled at its core, starting with Mexico and with diplomacy. When he said he'd build a wall I thought he was truly having a laugh. Now that it's become a reality I think we've gone back 60 years in time

 

[vorcirion]

I think the point here is that this was a very cack-handed populist rallying cry by Trump to appeal to a demographic fed up with decades-old immigration problems.

It's naive to assume every person attempting to illegally enter another country is a dreamer in search of a better life and/ or escaping persecution. There will and always has been major criminal elements exploiting slack border controls. The media will have you believe that not a single migrant is being opportunistic, so good luck getting a balanced portrayal there.

Yet surely this ancient problem has to be tackled at its core, starting with Mexico and with diplomacy. When he said he'd build a wall I thought he was truly having a laugh. Now that it's become a reality I think we've gone back 60 years in time

There are always some criminals in every group of people...but the way you and Trump and Fox are portraying it is like 50% of those immigrants are dangerous criminals. If you choose random 1000 Fox viewers...there are probably more criminals there than in a group of 1000 immigrants.

 

[goatwack]

There are always some criminals in every group of people...but the way you and Trump and Fox are portraying it is like 50% of those immigrants are dangerous criminals. If you choose random 1000 Fox viewers...there are probably more criminals there than in a group of 1000 immigrants.

"....you and Trump and Fox"

"50%"

You really paint with broad strokes don't you

 

[vorcirion]

"....you and Trump and Fox"

"50%"

You really paint with broad strokes don't you

Just like you, Trump and Fox do...fighting fire with fire.

 

[goatwack]

Just like you, Trump and Fox do...fighting fire with fire.

I'm not a Trumpite. I'm trying to remain objective in this car crash thread and not buy into extremist narratives from both sides

You know that it's ok not to bash Trump and not have posters of him on your wall don't you?

 

[vorcirion]

I'm not a Trumpite. I'm trying to remain objective in this car crash thread and not buy into extremist narratives from both sides

You know that it's ok not to bash Trump and not have posters of him on your wall don't you?

So why are you pushing this that immigrants are criminals? Since you should know that they are more law-abiding people than americans in general.

 

[goatwack]

So why are you pushing this that immigrants are criminals? Since you should know that they are more law-abiding people than americans in general.

A major criminal element of a swathe of people can still be a small number, relative to the total amount

I've already said building a wall is farcical. But by the same token the MSM will have people believe it's just displaced people in want of a betterment in their lives without a single criminal element

 

[vorcirion]

A major criminal element of a swathe of people can still be a small number, relative to the total amount

I've already said building a wall is farcical. But by the same token the MSM will have people believe it's just displaced people in want of a betterment in their lives without a single criminal element

Maybe because vast majority of those people are completely innocent and it's not beneficial to try to scare american people with these "murderers, rapists" etc. Let's say if MSM would report about protesters somewhere and talking like there are plenty of murderers and rapists coming after you with flags waving etc...that would be silly right? Though there would be also a criminal element there but it won't be mentioned of course.

 

[goatwack]

Maybe because vast majority of those people are completely innocent and it's not beneficial to try to scare american people with these "murderers, rapists" etc. Let's say if MSM would report about protesters somewhere and talking like there are plenty of murderers and rapists coming after you with flags waving etc...that would be silly right? Though there would be also a criminal element there but it won't be mentioned of course.

No, but anyone seen at even peaceful events with say a national flag for example will be branded by default. Racist, far-right etc, because they aren't in agreement about certain issues

The media has already made its intentions clear, and anyone not in complete agreement with it gets vilified

 

[vorcirion]

No, but anyone seen at even peaceful events with say a national flag for example will be branded by default. Racist, far-right etc, because they aren't in agreement about certain issues

The media has already made its intentions clear, and anyone not in complete agreement with it gets vilified

Depends what kind of flag of course...I'm sure most of us would agree that slavery was bad and nazis are bad. But immigrants are just normal people who most likely have troubles at home. And Trump isn't even helping with that by cutting foreign aid.

 

[goatwack]

Depends what kind of flag of course...I'm sure most of us would agree that slavery was bad and nazis are bad. But immigrants are just normal people who most likely have troubles at home. And Trump isn't even helping with that by cutting foreign aid.

Trump is certainly not interested in foreign policy of any kind, that much is apparent. It doesn't get much more symbolic than actually building a Commie wall.....but then he has stated and outlined his nationalistic tendencies openly, that's no secret

 

[slotplayer]

Will reply in greater detail when I get a chance but my point regarding saudi arabia was specifically on the arm sales, I have not seen much criticism on the main anti trump media outlets compared to other issues they berate him on, they are more interested in immigration/open borders and driving the russia collusion narrative.

I did say a while back if there was another way to deal with the illegal immigration problem other than a wall, when that seemed to enrage the left, then he should try that. This tariff threat against mexico could work, it's about time mexico sorted itself out, they are tolerating the corruption from the drug trade as it brings in money, this corruption and lawlessness is one of the reasons the people want to get out of there...

The mass immigration is not from Mexico, it was back in 2001 and mostly males. Mexican's are actually leaving the US because their economy is better.

The current waves are from the Northern Triangle.

 

[slotplayer]

 

[Harry_BKK]

I think the point here is that this was a very cack-handed populist rallying cry by Trump to appeal to a demographic fed up with decades-old immigration problems.

It's naive to assume every person attempting to illegally enter another country is a dreamer in search of a better life and/ or escaping persecution. There will and always has been major criminal elements exploiting slack border controls. The media will have you believe that not a single migrant is being opportunistic, so good luck getting a balanced portrayal there.

Yet surely this ancient problem has to be tackled at its core, starting with Mexico and with diplomacy. When he said he'd build a wall I thought he was truly having a laugh. Now that it's become a reality I think we've gone back 60 years in time

It has nothing to do with immigration laws as such.

The US was a driving part in 1948 to include in the Human Rights Charta the right to claim asylum and have your case heard no matter what. Immigration and asylum laws in countries which are part of the UN and who have signed up to the charta are aligned with the charta itself. Hence, changing the laws is easier said than done. But of course, Mr. T would not tell that his fans.

I can tell you from my own experience what is driving people to leave their home because it is not just the situation in their home country. Romania was not a super-bad place, yet people were desperate to leave. And I see it being similar in Guatemala/Honduras etc. Why? You had others who emigrated just one or two years ago returning for a visit with a Mercedes or Audi, wearing expensive looking clothes, smoking Marlboros, giving gifts to everyone, etc., which made people think Germany must be a gold mine. We called it "roasted doves flying people into their mouth" ("gebratene Tauben fliegen einem in den Mund").

Nobody said though that the car was 10 years or older, the jeans were for a tenner from Aldi and the cigarettes as well as most gifts bought either at Aldi too or in the duty free shop at the border. Plus, that you had to work your socks off to actually save enough money for a trip back home.

The result was that everyone wanted to leave, no matter what. When the wall came down, the German population in Transylvania went from roughly 250,000 to less than 20,000 in about one year!!! Left behind were mostly just the old people who did not want to move.

Taking it back to Guatemala etc, you have relatives sending money back home just a few months after they made it to the US. And that is often more than somebody earns in a year in those countries. So, people think of course that the "roasted doves fly into your mouth" in the US.

It will not change until those countries improve the living conditions for their people, not matter if a wall is 3, 30 or 300 feet high.

 

[TheAddict]

read enough stories of immigrants being let off lightly from what should be a serious charge for rape/brutal beatings, because they apparantly (lol ok) didnt know it was illegal to abuse women from where theyre from, having just arrived to the US.
naturally the justice system and government doesn't want to be seen as racist either, and the media often dont want to talk about it since in the eyes of many that would make them look hypocritical racists, something many of them often call anyone who happens to have an opinion they dont agree with, or doesnt fit there narrative .
and so that results in that often the incident is just quietly swept under the carpet, with a very weak punishment for the guilty person.
Some night even say that Its almost an invitation to do it, in a way..

obviously i wouldn't wish this on anyones young and vulnerable daughter, but I'd like to think if it happened to anyones daughter who is fine with some of these people who carry such a mentality, that they would also be fine with very little justice being served if it was their daughter who was the victim.

 

[mack341]

The mass immigration is not from Mexico, it was back in 2001 and mostly males. Mexican's are actually leaving the US because their economy is better.

The current waves are from the Northern Triangle.

Right, I read there were estimates of 5 million unauthorised mexicans living in the US and assumed it was still a current problem; if mexico is doing so well economically that mexicans are deciding to return home from the USA it does beg the question why don't the people from the 'northern triangle' settle/seek refugee status in mexico?

 

[slotplayer]

Right, I read there were estimates of 5 million unauthorised mexicans living in the US and assumed it was still a current problem; if mexico is doing so well economically that mexicans are deciding to return home from the USA it does beg the question why don't the people from the 'northern triangle' settle/seek refugee status in mexico?

That is why Trump is adding the tarriff on Mexican imports. So Mexico does more to stop the 100K each of the last two months. Estimated 1 million in total border crossings this year.

There are estimated 11-20 million illegals living in the US now but no one knows the exact number.

Google up the Flores Agreement.

The US already lets in 1.2 million legal immigrants per year, the left never mentions that.

 

[mack341]

Now, the numbers will only grow because the current situation will only get worse. You will not stop them until something is done in their country that will improve their lives. Trust me, nobody wants to leave home. I know it because I left my birth country at the age of 15.

I can also tell you why the numbers are surging. One of the main factors is that word is spreading around that the US will close its borders/make it harder to go in/apply for asylum/immigrant status etc. So people rush before it is too late. I experienced a similar situation in Romania, people tried like crazy to leave in the 80s because rumours were spread that Germany will stop allowing people of German descent like me to imigrate.

I agree with this, I've always said the problem should be solved at source, that is the true 'left' position, but can everyone living in the world have a 'western' style and standard of living?

I've recently been watching a few videos about John Perkins author of 'confessions of an economic hitman', very interesting. Apparently the poor south sends more money to the rich north, because of the debt repayments etc..plus they end up having to sell their raw materials/assets cheaply

 

[vorcirion]

That is why Trump is adding the tarriff on Mexican imports. So Mexico does more to stop the 100K each of the last two months. Estimated 1 million in total border crossings this year.

There are estimated 11-20 million illegals living in the US now but no one knows the exact number.

Google up the Flores Agreement.

The US already lets in 1.2 million legal immigrants per year, the left never mentions that.

well if I was Mexico I'd just ignore Trump and let him put his tariffs. Maybe even let more migrants through easier...just creates more problems for Trump and republicans don't seem to like those tariffs.