New UK laws prohibit autoplaying more than 25 spins a time

[fun4all]

Awful rule if you ask me but from what I understand this will be the case from 1st October.

Way to go UK gambling commission

 

[PaaskeDenmark]

Awful rule if you ask me but from what I understand this will be the case from 1st October.

Way to go UK gambling commission

Not with auto mouse click programs. Works exact the same

 

[fun4all]

Not with auto mouse click programs. Works exact the same

Careful if you win a jaguar

 

[fun4all]

Hmmm had a PM from a nice person (who will remain nameless unless they wish to post in this thread themselves).

Says this rule no longer applies and will be removed shortly.

Lets hope so and apologies if the info in the OP is wrong.

 

[petro]

Here in Australia auto-play on land based slots have been banned for about 10 years.

Although, from reading this tread it's unclear if this discussion is about land based or online slots.

 

[Richas]

Hmmm had a PM from a nice person (who will remain nameless unless they wish to post in this thread themselves).

Says this rule no longer applies and will be removed shortly.

Lets hope so and apologies if the info in the OP is wrong.

Hmm, the rule still exists. The UKGC have said they will not apply it until further notice and the rules will be consulted upon but that does not mean they are dropping this completely.

See their clarification here:

Old / Expired Link

22 Do licence holders have to comply with remote technical standard 8 (auto-play functionality) from the date of implementation of the Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Act?
June 2014

22.1 The Commission has identified that there is a significant difference in respect of the requirement on auto-play functionality between the Remote gambling and software technical standards (RTS) and the technical standards in other jurisdictions from where operators can currently legally operate in the British market.

22.2 Our requirements limit auto-play gambles to a maximum of 25 in one batch. However, we are aware that other jurisdictions either have higher limits or no limits.

22.3 We have considered this position and as a result we will not require compliance with the auto-play requirement as set out in the RTS from the date that licences are issued. Therefore operators will not have to make changes to the auto-play functionality of their games until further notice.

22.4 Our requirements around auto-play are intended to ensure customers are still in control of their gambling where this functionality is available. Therefore whilst we will not require compliance with RTS 8 at this time, we will still expect licence holders to comply with the licence conditions and codes of practice and RTS requirements that are intended to protect customers from harm. This means, an operator is expected to monitor the play of their customers and if unusual or excessive gambling activity occurred the operator should take appropriate action.

22.5 We intend to consult on changes to RTS 8. The consultation will consider whether changes to the existing requirements should be made. The changes considered during consultation could include changes to the maximum number of auto-play gambles permitted and the introduction of additional customer protection measures.

 

[vinylweatherman]

This 25 game limit is being rolled out by Microgaming. I first found it at Betway, but it's spreading fast.

There is a new "Viper UK" variant of the client, and 25 limit autoplay is only one of the UK specific changes.

Of course, it can be circumvented by mouse click programs, a more advanced mouse, such as a gaming mouse, will have autoclick as a built in function.

The intent behind it is to keep the player in control, and Microgaming USED to have functionality in it's autoplay that allowed the player to set loss limits and win limits for autoplay (it's still there in the old games). It is Microgaming that removed this level of control from the player, and the UKGC that told them to put it back. Unfortunately, what has been put back is a 25 game limit, rather than the REAL control the software used to offer.

The latest games of all come with even LESS in the way of options. The "stop on win" has been hidden behind a second button (custom), and the option for "infinite autoplay" has been added (until stop).

Other rules, when implemented, seem likely to outlaw those "wager race" type promotions as they drive players to out play each other, offering the greatest prize to the player that gambles the most. Instead, more use will need to be made of tournaments, such as the MPV offered by Microgaming. If the UKGC are really on the ball, they will ban those "999 continues" events, as these are effectively wager races where you buy your way to the top.

 

[fun4all]

There is a new "Viper UK" variant of the client, and 25 limit autoplay is only one of the UK specific changes.
.

They also have to display the RTP for every game. I just had a look around 32red but that is not happening yet?

 

[vinylweatherman]

They also have to display the RTP for every game. I just had a look around 32red but that is not happening yet?

I checked this too, but it doesn't appear to have been placed in the help file.

It's the multi platform providers that are starting to comply with this requirement.

Whether or not this is a breach of regulations depends on when the publication of RTP requirement comes into force. The 25 autoplay requirement has gone back to consultation, but where it has been implemented, it will probably stay until a different requirement is announced.

 

[Richas]

This 25 game limit is being rolled out by Microgaming. I first found it at Betway, but it's spreading fast.

There is a new "Viper UK" variant of the client, and 25 limit autoplay is only one of the UK specific changes.

Of course, it can be circumvented by mouse click programs, a more advanced mouse, such as a gaming mouse, will have autoclick as a built in function.

The intent behind it is to keep the player in control, and Microgaming USED to have functionality in it's autoplay that allowed the player to set loss limits and win limits for autoplay (it's still there in the old games). It is Microgaming that removed this level of control from the player, and the UKGC that told them to put it back. Unfortunately, what has been put back is a 25 game limit, rather than the REAL control the software used to offer.

The latest games of all come with even LESS in the way of options. The "stop on win" has been hidden behind a second button (custom), and the option for "infinite autoplay" has been added (until stop).

Other rules, when implemented, seem likely to outlaw those "wager race" type promotions as they drive players to out play each other, offering the greatest prize to the player that gambles the most. Instead, more use will need to be made of tournaments, such as the MPV offered by Microgaming. If the UKGC are really on the ball, they will ban those "999 continues" events, as these are effectively wager races where you buy your way to the top.

When the Remote Technical Standard is consulted upon you really should do a submission. The format will be that they will make a proposal (possibly with options) and ask a series of questions. Seems as though you could help by putting a player perspective - the risk with consultations is that only the industry or those focussed exclusively on problem gambling like care providers or campaign groups/charities like the Samaritans - those who have paid staff able to spend the time on it. The ordinary player voice can just get missed out completely.

 

[vinylweatherman]

When the Remote Technical Standard is consulted upon you really should do a submission. The format will be that they will make a proposal (possibly with options) and ask a series of questions. Seems as though you could help by putting a player perspective - the risk with consultations is that only the industry or those focussed exclusively on problem gambling like care providers or campaign groups/charities like the Samaritans - those who have paid staff able to spend the time on it. The ordinary player voice can just get missed out completely.

How do players (in general) find out about these consultations?

It seems it's up to the players to know the procedure and second guess what is about to happen, whereas the vested interests have it served to them on a plate due to their high level contacts with the UKGC.

Good thing therefore that this forum has yourself, as you seem to be keeping an eye on what is mostly obscured from the view of the ordinary player.

Part of the problem is the consultation document itself, it's HUGE (as last time). One really needs an organisation with a "team" to tackle it. The format puts the individual player off.

I'll keep my eyes open though.

One benefit of the change has been that I have more time on my hands due to so many of my usual haunts making a dash for the exit, rather than for the licence.

 

[Richas]

How do players (in general) find out about these consultations?

UKGC announce them, they do a press release, put it on their website, they include it in their regular newsletter and they have a twitter account that pushes out info but does not reply to anything.

It's easy to find out about them but you are right that they tend to be big, long, boring documents that would put most off. Also the devil is really in the detail. If you don't participate in the sorts of promotions you mention, or have experience of the bonuses etc it is difficult to input sensibly about the precise wording of the regulations that should apply, especially as they tend to be a bit general/open to allow for innovation.

 

[randomiam]

memories

Here in Australia auto-play on land based slots have been banned for about 10 years.

Although, from reading this tread it's unclear if this discussion is about land based or online slots.

in Victoria they used to autoplay till feature's if you help the button down used to just jam a card down the side of the button and off it went

still works on some machines

 

[maxd]

FYI this is the word that's been passed to us through official channels:

.. the 25 spin autoplay limit is being removed ...
Microgaming have it on their list to remove at this current time as the UKGC looked at the rule and decided not to implement it since other regulated markets do not have anything similar.
... expect it to be removed over the next couple of weeks as all UK software is upgraded.

 

[vinylweatherman]

FYI this is the word that's been passed to us through official channels:

I'll check the Betway client next time I see an update get triggered. I know the 25 limit has been rolled out there along with a few other UK specific changes.

I expect players would have sought ways to override the limit in any case, much like the players who stuck the buttons down on the b&m game.

The usual limit for Microgaming is 500, with a set of choices between 5 and 500, plus the ability to type a specific number in between 1 and 500, or 1 and 9999 in some versions and games.

Of more concern is the "until stop" button on the newest releases, this really does take all safety mechanisms away, with the gaming only stopping when the player presses "stop", or they bust out.

 

[catapultaudio]

I always took 'Til Stop' to mean 'Until Feature' - thats definitely how it seems to work on MG games?

Also worth mentioning is that PokerStars are removing auto top-up and auto-rebuy from their poker client - UK players will need to use a new Pokerstars UK client with these features removed in order to play. UK players remain part of the main player pool though, thank the lord!

 

[fun4all]

I checked this too, but it doesn't appear to have been placed in the help file.

.

Yep I cannot see it on download clients either and it is definitely part of the new regulation.

Microgaming have resisted for years putting the correct RTP of their slots in the download client. Now its going to be part of the regulations here so let's see the figures Microgaming.

Sadly not surprising to me the 25 autoplay rule was implemented and adhered to before this retraction but this RTP display has not been done yet.

However there is still a week to go.

 

[Richas]

Yep I cannot see it on download clients either and it is definitely part of the new regulation.

Microgaming have resisted for years putting the correct RTP of their slots in the download client. Now its going to be part of the regulations here so let's see the figures Microgaming.

Sadly not surprising to me the 25 autoplay rule was implemented and adhered to before this retraction but this RTP display has not been done yet.

However there is still a week to go.

Likely desperately hoping that the GBGA judicial review in the high court today and tomorrow throws them a lifeline (not a hope IMHO but with lawyers who knows?)

When the GBGA argue this legislation is not about consumer protection the UKGC can just point to the RTP disclosure rule and say...there you go, proof it is about consumer protection....

 

[fun4all]

Likely desperately hoping that the GBGA judicial review in the high court today and tomorrow throws them a lifeline (not a hope IMHO but with lawyers who knows?)

When the GBGA argue this legislation is not about consumer protection the UKGC can just point to the RTP disclosure rule and say...there you go, proof it is about consumer protection....

Ahh did not realise that was going on today, thanks Richas. If you could give us some cliffs on the proceedings/outcomes that would be very much appreciated.

I don't think any legal challenges to this have a hope either by the way. However it is most definitely not about consumer protection, it is about tax and tax only.

I would have a lot more respect if they admitted that. They never will, but it is the truth.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I always took 'Til Stop' to mean 'Until Feature' - thats definitely how it seems to work on MG games?

Also worth mentioning is that PokerStars are removing auto top-up and auto-rebuy from their poker client - UK players will need to use a new Pokerstars UK client with these features removed in order to play. UK players remain part of the main player pool though, thank the lord!

Does this not mean that UK players are at a disadvantage in what is mostly a game of skill, strategy, and timeliness?

 

[vinylweatherman]

Likely desperately hoping that the GBGA judicial review in the high court today and tomorrow throws them a lifeline (not a hope IMHO but with lawyers who knows?)

When the GBGA argue this legislation is not about consumer protection the UKGC can just point to the RTP disclosure rule and say...there you go, proof it is about consumer protection....

Given the number of operators that went for an early exit, it seems that confidence is low in the industry that this case will change anything. A few are sticking it out right to the end, and maybe the sudden delay from Digimedia in migrating everyone over to Spin Casino is partly so that they can see how this case goes before the move becomes irreversible.

 

[funnymunny]

Does this not mean that UK players are at a disadvantage in what is mostly a game of skill, strategy, and timeliness?

Not at all... players are still able to manually top-up and rebuy (i.e. the same way it was a few years ago before they implemented the automated functionality. Games are also paused (~15seconds) if/when a player loses all their chips, whilst the player is offered the opportunity to bring more chips to the table).

There is a potential (in cash games) that players may miss being dealt in a hand if they bust-out & don't bring more chips to the table within the allotted time. However in many instances this can be a good thing. (If you don't have enough chips, someones taken them from you - missing a hand can give you a little cool-off time / prevent you from going on tilt).

 

[Richas]

Does this not mean that UK players are at a disadvantage in what is mostly a game of skill, strategy, and timeliness?

Yep see my draft petition over on 2+2, just posted the latest draft....

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[Richas]

Given the number of operators that went for an early exit, it seems that confidence is low in the industry that this case will change anything. A few are sticking it out right to the end, and maybe the sudden delay from Digimedia in migrating everyone over to Spin Casino is partly so that they can see how this case goes before the move becomes irreversible.

It is the pull out from grey markets being delayed, those pulling out of the UK did it on cost grounds, fees, tax but yes confidence is low. Member of the GBGA like Ladbrokes and WH have entirely disasociated themselves from the case.

 

[Richas]

Ahh did not realise that was going on today, thanks Richas. If you could give us some cliffs on the proceedings/outcomes that would be very much appreciated.

I don't think any legal challenges to this have a hope either by the way. However it is most definitely not about consumer protection, it is about tax and tax only.

I would have a lot more respect if they admitted that. They never will, but it is the truth.

Except it is clearly not. Every single MP backed this Act, they really did not like that 85% of remote gambling was not UK regulated. They also want the tax but they want the consumer protection too.

Your claim is of course pretty much what GBGA are arguing, against the ability of national governments to tax online economic activity in their country.

 

[funnymunny]

Yep see my draft petition over on 2+2, just posted the latest draft....

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Hmmm - some potentially valid points you've made. I tend to do other things whilst playing poker (watching movie, checking emails, etc), so generally limit myself to ~6 tables. As such, I don't see much of an issue with the removal of automation. However I can see where players who are playing a lot more tables may be impacted.

Please note that it's likely the rules were written in order to protect the recreational player. Automated top-ups could be viewed as a running tap on their balance. (Assuming they're going to be losing), without automated rebuys & top-ups, these players can see their balances at the cash tables dropping and have to make a conscious rebuy decision in tournaments. Therefore may be more alert to losses & as such, in a better position to limit them.

I can see your 2+2 thread has already gained traction & perhaps adding some content about how this functionality can be advantageous to new and/or recreational players (rather than the current focus on the strategy of the skilled multi-tabler) will help(?).

I don't want cross-post here, so will continue this over there (and/or PM)

 

[Richas]

Hmmm - some potentially valid points you've made. I tend to do other things whilst playing poker (watching movie, checking emails, etc), so generally limit myself to ~6 tables. As such, I don't see much of an issue with the removal of automation. However I can see where players who are playing a lot more tables may be impacted.

Please note that it's likely the rules were written in order to protect the recreational player. Automated top-ups could be viewed as a running tap on their balance. (Assuming they're going to be losing), without automated rebuys & top-ups, these players can see their balances at the cash tables dropping and have to make a conscious rebuy decision in tournaments. Therefore may be more alert to losses & as such, in a better position to limit them.

There are some possible edits I can suggest & I can see your 2+2 thread has already gained traction. I don't want cross-post here, so will continue this over there (and/or PM)

I agree. This protection stuff is quite hard. We all want maximum protection but we also want minimum inconvenience/grief too. There is a case for the rule, I think it is disproportionate and unreasonable when we have better things now, the analytics software is a much better approach than a crude ban.

My call is that this restriction has too big an impact on play for uncertain or non existent protection but the case for the restriction is real - I just don't think its place is in the petition against it

 

[fun4all]

Except it is clearly not.

That is just your opinion and frankly, it clearly is the case this act is just about tax.

The UKGC about consumer protection? Tell that to people affected by Smart Live Casino. Still operating with a UKGC licence but warned about on here https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/smartlives-dodgy-practices-no-pay.49487/?t=49487 multiple no pays. (my own personal experience of them, I hit a £25 number on roulette and they voided the spin). Tell that to people who had money stolen out of their UK licenced wallets on betfair.

You can argue that other jurisdictions are just as flaccid in this regard. However introducing this act in the UK will substantially reduce the choice available to the consumer. Reduction in competition and choice is always bad for the customers. Pinnacle sports have already pulled out, pretty much the only proper bookmaker available today.

The SOLE reason this act exists is to collect tax. It also has an obvious bad effect on end users with far less choice available. Pokerstars have also announced a cut in rewards for UK players due to this new regulation - how on earth can that be good for customers? Now I can understand that it is about the tax and I also believe that this act is going to happen and everyone just has to deal with it. I also understand that nobody is ever going to admit it is the case (because of these court cases etc) however don't try and pretend the UKGC is some sort of consumer protector, they most definitely are not.

 

[Richas]

That is just your opinion and frankly, it clearly is the case this act is just about tax.

The UKGC about consumer protection?
The SOLE reason this act exists is to collect tax. It also has an obvious bad effect on end users with far less choice available. Pokerstars have also announced a cut in rewards for UK players due to this new regulation - how on earth can that be good for customers? Now I can understand that it is about the tax and I also believe that this act is going to happen and everyone just has to deal with it. I also understand that nobody is ever going to admit it is the case (because of these court cases etc) however don't try and pretend the UKGC is some sort of consumer protector, they most definitely are not.

Well the biggest single additional protection is that we will no longer have sites offering games with undeclared RTPs, potentialy changing RTPs, potentially games where optimal play is altered unanounced - oh yes and the operator gets to be regulated too - so I will call your live casino example and raise you Everleaf and Purple Lounge where the operator (Microgaming) would have been on the hook for compensating players.

I really do not consider games offered without RTP and without proper licensing of the software suppliers to be ones that should be available.

It is ALSO about regulation and given that there are over 1000 UK Remote licences now whereas other regulated regimes offer handfuls or state monopolies the consumer choice is far better than other regulated markets.