Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
Hey gang

I tried the new slot at Intercasino yesterday called Horns and Halos.

It's a bit different as you can choose one side of the reels or another.

The feature is triggered by collecting 10 horns or halos.....

So I played til I hit $0 and I had 9 halos and thought "what the heck" and went to the cashier, then thought I would go back to the game just to see what the feature was all about etc and if the halos would be saved if I decided to change to horns, and ALL the horns I had collected were GONE!

Apparently, any points collected towards the required 10 to trigger the feature only last for THAT SESSION :eek: So, if you run out of cash you're back to the beginning!

Surely this has to affect the RTP? Regardless, whoever designed it should be shot.

My advice is to avoid this slot.
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Location
-
Nifty :D

I am not familiar with this slot, but just a general comment.

I have never liked slots where the player must collect "things". One of the newest Net Entertainment slots, Robin Hood also require that the player collect symbols (gold bags or something) to trigger the free spin feature. But at least, Robin Hood stores your collected bags for 1 years. So the player can of course play, log off and continue another day without loosing "his collection".

So yeah, I think it is strange that your collection of "horns" only is valid within the same game session at this game. What a weird strategy from those who have created it. I mean, who will play this game again after they find out about this restriction. The collection of horns obviously has a value regarding RTP for the player (imagine if the player always will run out of money after he has collected 7-9 horns etc). Players will most likely feel cheated if they are not aware of this rule. Bad strategy.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Nifty :D

I am not familiar with this slot, but just a general comment.

I have never liked slots where the player must collect "things". One of the newest Net Entertainment slots, Robin Hood also require that the player collect symbols (gold bags or something) to trigger the free spin feature. But at least, Robin Hood stores your collected bags for 1 years. So the player can of course play, log off and continue another day without loosing "his collection".

So yeah, I think it is strange that your collection of "horns" only is valid within the same game session at this game. What a weird strategy from those who have created it. I mean, who will play this game again after they find out about this restriction. The collection of horns obviously has a value regarding RTP for the player (imagine if the player always will run out of money after he has collected 7-9 horns etc), so players will most likely feel cheated if they are not aware of this rule. Bad strategy.


Microgaming have a few such games, but they have designed them to preserve your collection between sessions. I have not heard of an outcry from operators over this, nor seen them take such games off. If anything, Microgaming are developing MORE games like this. Even a bonus that has taken hundreds of spins to collect for does not necessarily pay big. Wealth Spa can take AGES to collect the 5 coins, but I have had a massage bonus so poor that it has triggered the "minimum payment guarantee" feature, paying less on average than the ONE coin smoothie bonus.

Perhaps this horn bonus always pays big, but this only makes matters WORSE, as those players who run out of money lose a much greater chunk of their RTP than those who deposit large enough amounts to see it through.

We then have the matter of internet instability, where players who fully intend to have a long unbroken session find they constantly get booted and have to log back in. Players will quickly feel this game has been designed to cheat them, and that the casino deliberately boots them off in order to make them lose their horns. This will reflect on the trustworthiness of the casino as a whole, and ultimately the software.

Players will quickly come to mistrust ALL games that work like this, and think that if software can forget horns, it can just as easily forget their balances, which was one of the big fears among players when closing the casino one day, and having to trust their money will still be there in the morning, or next week. This is why many players withdraw at the end of each day, only to redeposit next morning, which annoys the operators who have to pay extra for this caution by the player.
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Location
-
We then have the matter of internet instability, where players who fully intend to have a long unbroken session find they constantly get booted and have to log back in. Players will quickly feel this game has been designed to cheat them, and that the casino deliberately boots them off in order to make them lose their horns. This will reflect on the trustworthiness of the casino as a whole, and ultimately the software.


I agree with your post and especially the quote above. Internet instability (which most players occasionally will experience regardless of provider) is another good point here.
 

RUSTYROO

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Location
Australia
I had the exact same thing happen to me bar i had collected 6 gates and then busted out and deposited from the cashier link within the game by the way so I didn't actually exit out of the game but came back and it was reset.

I was positive i read the term stating... " Every hells gate or heavens gate that appears on your chosen side is stored". and i did because that was the first line of the rules so i didn't read the rest thoroughly enough but what else could that mean, right?

Then the next paragraph says...."If you switch sides, accumulated heavens gate or hells gate symbols are carried over".

But then 5 paragraphs later on the other side of the page it says...."Collected heavens gate and hells gate symbols are not carried over between play sessions".

I emailed them about it because i hadnt noticed that last rule and this is actually my correspondence with them...


I was just playing the new game Horns and Halos and had accumulated 6 gates but then ran out of money so i clicked on the cashier and deposited more funds, then when i came back into the game it reset all the gates i collected to zero.

In the rules it says “ Every heaven gate or hell gate that appears on your chosen side is stored".” and does not say anything about getting out of the game you lose what you have collected or if you need to fund your account like in my case.

I played my whole first deposit today on this game just so i could try out the free spin feature.

Could you please see what can be done to fix this and either give me the 6 gates plus an extra one i got after i redeposited and hadn't noticed it reset, or credit me back my first deposit. In the game logs it shows the gates collected.

I hope to hear from you soon.


I then get an email back saying...


Hello and thank you for contacting InterCasino.com Customer Support Team regarding our new games.

We are sorry to hear that you are experiencing difficulties with our new game Horns&Halos.

I have contacted our casino specialists in this matter and I will email you back as soon as I receive any answer.

Please feel free to contact us should there be anything we can assist you with.

Our contact details can be found at the following link Old / Expired Link

Kind regards

Sabine
Customer Support Team
InterCasino.com


Then the next day i get this from them...


Hello and thank you for contacting the InterCasino support team.

After having investigated your query with regards to the terms found in the Slots game Horns & Halos, we would like to clarify that the term ‘Every Heaven Gate or Hell Gate that appears on your chosen side is stored’ relates to Gates being stored during the Game Sessions, meaning that you will not lose these features whilst still in the game (from one spin to another).

However, once you terminate the session for any reason, including going to the Cashier to deposit further funds, the Game Session is considered ended, meaning that when you log into the game again, you will be participating in a new Session.

As my colleague rightly pointed out earlier today, the following term is included ‘Collected Heaven Gate and Hell Gate symbols are not carried over between play sessions’ which is what happened in your case.



Please feel free to contact us should there be anything we can assist you with.

Our contact details can be found at the following link Old / Expired Link

Kind regards

Michael
Customer Support Team


So i start reading that last one and felt a bit like a dummy because i had not seen that rule but then i read the part where he put 'As my colleague rightly pointed out earlier today' and i was like HUH??? Im not stupid, i just didn't read all the rules correctly and your the first person that has pointed this out to me in such a nice way i might add.:rolleyes:

I never replied because it was not worth my time but i really think they need to scrap the first paragraph of the rules as that is the main thing anyone playing that game would be looking in the terms for and they see that like in my case and think all is good.
 

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vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
What a load of bollocks. The feature is bound to contribute to the RTP of the game, and depositing more money is NOT "ending the session", and at the very least, players should have the means to top up their accounts should they wish to pursue the feature after busting out.

Given that this is the internet, the current state of a game should ALWAYS be preserved, at least for a reasonable period of time so that a player can reconnect to their session and carry on.

The fact that this was INTENTIONAL, rather than being a glitch, is truly rogue behaviour on the part of the software supplier, and strays close to the line when it comes to "rogue software" as it steals RTP from players under a number of circumstances which are beyond the players' control, and thus cannot be said to offer a "fair game".

Microgaming have a few games like this, such as Tomb Raider II, but the software DOES preserve the state of collected items, in this case passports, between sessions, and for quite some time.

This type of game at Crypto casinos should be avoided unless players have made a substantial deposit, and have a 100% stable internet connection.
 

AudiManinBoro

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Location
UK
No comment from the Intercasino rep? For an accredited casino one would have expected some input by now but maybe thats just me. I have no idea and i cant be bothered to check but is the Intercasino rep even active on this forum? I cant for the life of me ever remember seeing a post from him :what:
 

RUSTYROO

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Location
Australia
The rep is TonyH and he last logged on on Dec 5, so just before this thread started.

I sent a PM informing him of this thread.
 

Simmo!

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
The thing I don't really understand about this is that the game has so much potential to annoy players. Every slot has some potential to annoy in terms of delivering a poor feature or a dry run but to add in "conditions" is a strange decision.

Games where you collect things and then, when you finally get to the feature, deliver a crap return are annoying enough (the reason I don't play the otherwise excellent Robin Hood) but when you are forced to reach a goal in a single session it's even worse.

I'm quite amazed that a developer with so much experience could think that a game that has the ability to annoy players - even if it's only a small proportion - can be good for a casino :confused: Unless you are guaranteed a big feature hit - maybe that's the trade-off? It would be interesting to hear the logic/psychology behind it.
 

RUSTYROO

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Location
Australia
When I finally got the feature I think I only won a little over 10x my bet but it took a few hundred spins to even trigger.

Also in normal play I got the highest pay symbol on a line and it only paid $100 betting $1.50, after that I left this game alone.

Maybe I am being over hard on this game but I think it stinks. :puke:

And as for Robin Hood Simmo, I have had a healthy balance ripped right out from under me several times over, only to finally get the feature and get so peeved I only won 5x back after all the money it took just trying to collect them damn buggers.... That game looked so promising when it first came out but I am yet to get a good feature on it and I wont be trying to hard to now either... My burnt fingers are still healing :oops:
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
The thing I don't really understand about this is that the game has so much potential to annoy players. Every slot has some potential to annoy in terms of delivering a poor feature or a dry run but to add in "conditions" is a strange decision.

Games where you collect things and then, when you finally get to the feature, deliver a crap return are annoying enough (the reason I don't play the otherwise excellent Robin Hood) but when you are forced to reach a goal in a single session it's even worse.

I'm quite amazed that a developer with so much experience could think that a game that has the ability to annoy players - even if it's only a small proportion - can be good for a casino :confused: Unless you are guaranteed a big feature hit - maybe that's the trade-off? It would be interesting to hear the logic/psychology behind it.

Tomb Raider II can take hundreds of spins to get all 5 passports, and your first picks can be "trap", "trap", a return of NOTHING. Wealth Spa is even worse in the dificulty of hitting all 5 coins for the free spin bonus, and it can pay almost nothing. At least it has a minimum win guarantee on that feature, so you never end up with nothing at all.

These games at least remember your collection over several sessions, so you can go away, come back with more money and try again and again till you get it.

If this horns game DOES guarantee a big feature payout, it make it much WORSE because it also means a much larger chunk of RTP comes from the feature, and players who usually make small deposits are being cheated every time they play this game.
 

TonyH

Dormant account
Joined
Aug 31, 2011
Location
Malta
All

Apologies for the delay in responding to this thread and thank you once again to RUSTYROO for bringing this to my attention.

As I have always tried to be during my short tenure as a member of Casinomeister, I want to be honest and clear in my comments and intentions…

I genuinely appreciate any constructive feedback a member is willing to forward me, either privately, via a thread or directly to [email protected]

Hopefully a number of the members I have communicated with to date will substantiate this!

As stated in previous responses, constructive feedback is pivotal to the success of our brand and I encourage any one willing to help me improve our customer experience to come forward with your input.

Regarding Horns and Halos, I accept and appreciate the constructive feedback received to date.

I am sorry to read that this new game is not appreciated by some members of the forum.
Thus far, feedback regarding Horns & Halos has been positive.

Your comments have been taken on board and the intention moving forward is to incorporate a number of points raised into the development of any games due for release in the New Year.

Horns and Halos has been approved by our governing body, the Lotteries and Gaming Authority of Malta, prior to release and the games rules in my personal opinion are clear. They can be easily accessed via the game Paytable/Rules section, or on our site, on the page dedicated to this game.

In closing, I thank everyone once again for taking the time to post their comments and encourage you to continue to bring your constructive feedback to my attention.

Kindest regards

Tony Hayes
Casino Manager

InterCasino
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
webmeister
PABnonaccred
CAG
MM
Joined
Aug 25, 2004
Location
Bexhill on sea, England
Horns and Halos has been approved by our governing body, the Lotteries and Gaming Authority of Malta, prior to release and the games rules in my personal opinion are clear. They can be easily accessed via the game Paytable/Rules section, or on our site, on the page dedicated to this game.
So in other words; You have no intention of changing the game so that the collected symbols are saved, or by adding a big warning notice to players when the open the game up?

It may well be in the paytable, but this is just not good enough IMPO. :(
Also, how did you get the game approved when it has an uncertain RTP depending on whether players read the rules or run out of money before hitting the feature?
And apart from all that - do YOU think the way this slot works is really fair?

KK
 

Highroller

Violation of rule 1.12 - inciting fraudulent pla
Joined
Dec 12, 2011
Location
euro
That game sounds real corrupt to me.
It is obvious that the payout rate is then VERY low, as no games over 100% will ever be made.

In my country a slot game like that would not be accepted. We even have our own word for such corrupt read-between-the-lines-theft we call it "FARMER-CATCHING"!! I recommend that someone writes the Malta Gaming Autorities, as it is obvious they have overlooked something.

Only good thing is - games of this type can be exploded to the players advantage... if you use your IQ.

BTW. Can't the player just deposit in another window, or another computer?

Also... does RTG have those kind of collecting games?
 

Highroller

Violation of rule 1.12 - inciting fraudulent pla
Joined
Dec 12, 2011
Location
euro
A even more bizarre game I saw was on Intertops... well actually that one was in the betting section:

Will the Earth be destoyed in 2012? yes - no

I think the odds on Intertops for NO was set to 1.01 ... But what is the point of offering the YES opportunity???
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
I agree with KK.

I thank tonyh for his post, but it pretty much says (IMO) that everyone else likes the slot, the rules are clear, so ummm thanks for the input but you have no grounds for complaint.

You don't see them often, but this is a predatory slot where a players bankroll at the start of the session could well directly determine their RTP. No way on earth should any slot that accumulates points etc towards a feature be reset when the session ends....the whole internet connection issue is a real one for a lot of people and dropouts will absolutely affect the rtp and put money in the casino coffers that has no right to be there.

Just to reiterate... AVOID THIS GAME LIKE THE PLAGUE
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Classic spin, with the REAL issue being brushed aside with the "rules are clear" argument.

It's theft, it's the same as leaving a land casino slot with some money left in the tray in order to get some more change from the cage, only to have casino staff dart in and confiscate the money you left behind, and then justifying it by pointing to a poster at the entrance that says that any money left in an unattended game is immediately forfeit to the house.

I expect the players who like the game have no idea that they are receiving a LOWER RTP simply because they have had to redeposit.

As for an "exploit" by depositing in a different window, load of bollocks, this would simply make sure the player got a FAIR game, and in no way would they be able to cheat the casino. If this WERE an exploit, a player could do the same simply by having a large enough bankroll to start with.

As for the fact that Malta passed this game so making it acceptable, this is an even BIGGER load of bollocks, since Malta can't even police it's own licensees effectively, let alone have the skills necessary to assess a game.

If Intercasino want to prove their case, let Michael Shackleford calculate the loss of RTP for a player that has to leave the slot to redeposit, over one who has a big enough bankroll to see it through.

In effect, a low roller could NEVER get the bonus round, and their RTP would be only that of the base game. If Intercasino believes players "like" this, they are deluding themselves. Some of the biggest moans seen here are of the form "xxx spins and STILL no bonus round.............. this game is a cheat.....".

The person who first though this rule was a good idea should be fired, as he has no idea how to make players happy and KEEP them happy. Even those players who like the game will change their mind on the day they have a terrible session, struggle to make 9 horns, and grudgingly redeposit just to get the last one, only to find everything gone.

This comes hard on the heels of the "no 9 line slots allowed" rule on a SLOTS bonus, yet nothing about playing only 9 lines of a 15 or 20 line slot, which is the same thing, and again with the 60x WR seen at a different "white label" Ecash casino. Both were in the rules, but I didn't see ONE player "liking" it when the issue was raised.

Microgaming have a number of such games, but they have used a FAIR design, and all tokens are preserved from one session to the next, let alone when redepositing in the same session.
 

Zepher

Dormant account
Joined
May 19, 2012
Location
East Midlands - UK
Sorry to bump an old thread, but I find it quite alarming that TonyH never responded further to this thread.. Is this game still the same to anyone's knowledge? Pretty dodgy behaviour IMO. I thought Intercasino were pretty respectable, and here we have the actual Casino Manager using classic spins ( excuse the pun ;) ) to avoid a legitimate complaint. Shady..
 

ChopleyIOM

Hearthstone Addict
webby
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Location
IOM
Interesting thread this one, and before my time here at CM so glad you bumped it Zepher!

TBH if I'd have read this thread before I got the latest bonus offer from Intercasino, I'd have probably given them a miss instead of depositing as I did, and getting unceremoniously busted out.....

Some of their slots are pretty good fun but I've always had my doubts about the RTP, and the information isn't readily available anywhere.

I swear some of them feel like they have an RTP in the high 80s rather than the mid 90s.

As for the subject of this thread, it's truly shocking slot design and I agree with some of the stronger comments that have been made, borderline fraudulence/theft IMO.
 

Slotster!

I predict a riot.
Joined
Oct 17, 2004
Location
Location, Location!
If this horns game DOES guarantee a big feature payout, it make it much WORSE because it also means a much larger chunk of RTP comes from the feature,

Fear not! Endless spins at £1.50 to eventually hit the feature. 10 spins later = £5.40 return :eek2::D

Heh hee...

I love Intercasino, they are ace. Love the games, love the payouts. Next to 32RED they are about as reputable as it gets and a good 'alternative' software provider for when I need a MG hiatus.

This is just a dog of a slot that need putting down! :D
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Fear not! Endless spins at £1.50 to eventually hit the feature. 10 spins later = £5.40 return :eek2::D

Heh hee...

I love Intercasino, they are ace. Love the games, love the payouts. Next to 32RED they are about as reputable as it gets and a good 'alternative' software provider for when I need a MG hiatus.

This is just a dog of a slot that need putting down! :D

So, they go out of their way to design in a deletion of past horns or halos just to save them paying an extra 4x bet to a player that had to break off to make another deposit. They damaged the integrity of their brand just for this meagre saving:confused:

Microgaming go out of their way to ensure that breaking off from a game does not cause stuff to be lost, such as the passports collected on Tomb Raider II, which is very similar to this horns and halos because you have to collect 5 to trigger the bonus, and it can pay well, but also pay nothing at all. Microgaming didn't code in deletion of collected passports when a player finished a session, even though this would have saved money by lowering the RTP for play over several short sessions.

It is also questionable whether this horns and halos game is compliant with responsible gambling ideals, as it encourages players to chase on till they get the 10 needed, for if they break off they will lose what they have gained so far.
 
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