Netent Starburst VERY VERY ANGRY

[asm]

May I ask what is your usual betting size is pleaaee

That would depend on the game.

The highest I might go is €12,50 in Victorious, which I rarely do. Whatever the case is, I wouldn't bet high enough to be so bitter about it that it'd warrant a "the casino industry is cheating me"-thread. You're effectively betting in a losing proposition and then wondering how it's possible you lost. Go fig.

 

[Janek12]

Here is his profile and you can check his posts and stats. https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/30207/

I believe you are talking about someone else.

I think you're talking about AussieDave where Jufo checked his stats and found them normal

Thank you for the link.

I am definitely talking about the Norwegian guy because IIRC AussieDave was a bit volatile but KKMT seemed quite composed to me and since he was a software developer, I presumed he knew a bit about what he was talking about regarding his research.

 

[Janek12]

Also, I would like to add for the OP that Starburst is a highly unique game in my experience; in spite of the low variance, the dry spells can be staggering; I have gone many hundreds of spins without a bigger win.

In my experience this slot makes up for the long dry spells with several or quite a lot of 3x - 10x wins in rapid succession but, of course, not always...

IMO it is very different from other slots where you lose 100 bets and then have a bonus round and get a 90x bet win.

So I personally do not find anything unusual about the horrible streak the OP described; he would have to gather much, much, much more data to be able to find out if there is anything fishy going on.

 

[geordiecolin]

I can think of much better games to blow $1000 of spins on,but that's my person preference. I can only presume that,unless your super rich,a person who wagers at $10 per spin is usually someone who is looking for that big hit fast rather than someone like me who low rolls in the hope of enjoying some extended game play with a possibility of a modest to good win?

The way I see it is that there is a better chance of hitting a decent win rolling £/$ 1000 at 1.00 per spin than at 10.00 per spin simply due to the math's involved.
I would be pissed off too if I didn't get one starline in that game over so many spins but there are endless ways to get shafted online that are perfectly "valid"

 

[ktruo10]

you guys got me wrong.
it's not about the losing streak, it's about the way it happened. Put it this way, I have yet ever to made a withdraw EVER. i'm a bad gambler and I'm used to the losing feeling.

I'm just upset on how it happened.

playin $1 dollar bets, I regular star features and big wins but I was still broke even.

as soon as I up my bet to $10 a bet, for over 100 spins I did not even get a star feature not once.

but as soon as I put it down to 20cents.. and within 2-3 spins the star features comes like no tomorrow, and of course big wins.

Like I said, this is not the first time this has happen.

 

[chuchu59]

hi people.

I had just played starburst at GUTS casino (not taking it out on guts but the software developer instead)

I had just made over 100 consecutive spins at $10 a spin. for over 100 spins I did not once get those star features at all. it was all pretty much dead spins. this is not the first time this has happened, this is like my 3rd time. I than receive 10 bonus so I continue playing it at 20cents a spins.. and guess what I keep on getting that star feature non stop with big wins.

like.... I'm still in a state of disbelief here, can someone tell me that this is not rigged please and that I'm just imagining this.

100 spins mean nothing. You chose to bet at $10 a spin whereas for me its always $0.10 per spin. I had done thousands of spins and the star feature is sometimes a rarity which may not occur in 200-300 spins but even should they occur it could still be a dead spin. Same with DOA if its not your slot you need to avoid it.

 

[philderby]

can we close this thread already #BORED

 

[goatwack]

I wouldn't spend £2 on Starburst, let alone highroll on it. It's colourful graphics belie quite a strangely mid-to-high variance slot.

When I up bets I too wonder where the big hits have suddenly disappeared to on other games. It is possible that you've invested so much money highrolling, that the moment you lower your bet the game is almost 'compensating' you via the plethora of small wins. At least up to your starting balance. It's called the dreaded 'Netent Variance', where you're never quite ahead, at least not for long.

It annoys the crap out of all of us too, don't worry about. All we hope to do is be in the right place at the right time for that big cashout.

Just because upping bets worked before is not a guarantee that it will again or else we'd all be selling our homes, cars and partners to have a few super spins ourselves

 

[Clownesk]

Anybody else with personal experience would you be kind enough to share your thoughts please

That approach exactly is the problem. Personal experience means nothing regarding randomness. Except that personal experiences are completely random.

I, by the way, have the perfect solution for you: Just go on playing on low or min bet sizes. You will definitely lose less in the long run.

 

[DANB9191]

like come on some helpful advise please.

should I not ever up my bet, or only up my bet at certain times....

please help a noobie out, I'm sick of always getting slaughtered when I up my bet

What you do is... STAY AWAY from Starburst Until you have £1.00 left over Maybe it's worth a try then on $0.10 stakes.. Why on earth would you do $10.00 spins on a game so bad ?! Maybe $0.50 spins but wow We all do stupid things.

 

[dunover]

OK, I am torn here. I know the RNG should pull an outcome the same irrespective of stake. Once I had a session on IGT like Jasminebed when I raised and kept winning, got 50 quid to over 6k at one point. On Twin Spin I've done it too, but to £2250.

I have to say though that I have seen the OP's event happen numerous times, maybe more than I'd expect it to. I mentioned once my Rhino streak of 9 consecutive BoGs when betting £3.20-£6 a spin after getting a big win on TwinSpin - prior to this 5 was my record at lower stakes. I have never seen more than 5 BoGs before or since on lower stakes. Yes, you may get 8 features, with 4 BoGs one at just over, another 3 BoGs but it's actually quite rare to get 5 or more consecutively. The OP suggests an algorithm is a at work to 'guard' against large wins occurring at big stakes. It's possible, but we'd never know.

Then again, psychologically betting big makes you notice dead spells more due the fact your bankroll plummets at 50 a time, whereas on say £1.20 you'd take a little while to lose £50. You are more conscious of NOT winning on larger stakes.

Who really knows.

 

[wewewewewe]

The OP is right!

I have had the same experiences.

On starburst, low bet, frequently the bonus stars. You up the bet to 8 € a bet, far less big hits and bonus stars.

On Twin Spin, you bet 1,25 of 2,50 a bet. The reels expand the whole time, around once in 10 spins. (approximately) you up the bet to 10 € a spin, more then 30-40 dead spins, not even ONCE you get a expanding reel. Also very less hits.

On Raging Rhino it is even worse. You play 0.80 €a spin, you get free spins and the rhino's fall in place. Big wins. You play 4 € a spin, nothing in the bonus game. 5 or more times you get the "Bonus Guarantee" no wins at all.

For me its so clear, when betting high, the chances of getting good bonus rounds is drastically reduced. I dont need statistically proof for that, its just so obvious. And you just can experience it when you play. :icon_twis

You all can argue its RNG, etc, etc. For me its just programmed! Thats the way slots work.

Also very clear, you play with bonus, very more htis, you get more wins, suddenly when the WR is about to be met, NOTHING hits anymore. Resulting in a drastically decrease of youre bankroll. (or busting out) Coincidence? RNG? No.....for that, this kind of pattern happens far to many times.

I dont wanna start a YES of NO war about RNG, this is just my experience, and i for myself know enough. Its somehow predictable and programmed.

Still i enjoy gambling at some time

 

[Deeplay]

OK, I am torn here. I know the RNG should pull an outcome the same irrespective of stake. Once I had a session on IGT like Jasminebed when I raised and kept winning, got 50 quid to over 6k at one point. On Twin Spin I've done it too, but to £2250.

I have to say though that I have seen the OP's event happen numerous times, maybe more than I'd expect it to. I mentioned once my Rhino streak of 9 consecutive BoGs when betting £3.20-£6 a spin after getting a big win on TwinSpin - prior to this 5 was my record at lower stakes. I have never seen more than 5 BoGs before or since on lower stakes. Yes, you may get 8 features, with 4 BoGs one at just over, another 3 BoGs but it's actually quite rare to get 5 or more consecutively. The OP suggests an algorithm is a at work to 'guard' against large wins occurring at big stakes. It's possible, but we'd never know.

Then again, psychologically betting big makes you notice dead spells more due the fact your bankroll plummets at 50 a time, whereas on say £1.20 you'd take a little while to lose £50. You are more conscious of NOT winning on larger stakes.

Who really knows.

Well only 2 or 3 times max when I have upped my bet on twinspin it has resulted in wins. And twin spin does go in cycles , when its paying your getting join ups, smaller wins etc then it dies. But cant work out if thats just down to pure luck or lack of ... I cant see how they would program a game to somehow alter RTP based on bet size as it goes against all the info we have which is the "game is color blind ... dont care about past current or future bets or size etc etc " but still makes me think right to the point that I never ever change my bet upwards these days on twin spin and a few other slots.

Novo on the other hand so often when i have upped my bet it has paid. But its just luck I suppose. Thing is we have never had a whistle blower from inside the industry saying this or that was the case. If there was some kind of secret code to control such elements such as bet size. Which makes me think its just our human nature looking for patterns and reasons why we didnt win but still .....

 

[goatwack]

Funny how us lot go out of our way to explain the whys and whens of slot play, without fully knowing ourselves, I agree in that strange waves do occur, and far too often to the detriment of the player. It is also amusing to shrug these incidents off over extended play because we just want to be the recipient of the slot's kindness for that day.

But the games fail to mask such glaring disparities when challenged, so the moment you up your bet it doesn't even pretend to play the same as when lowrolling.

Slot providers must be falling over themselves laughing at our blissful ignorance of the facts when really they ought to be 100% transparent in how their games operate. But of course this will never happen as it is a multi-million dollar business that has no interest in disclosing its business practices.

Perhaps we'll finally know by about 2046

 

[Harry_BKK]

Well let's add something to the tinfoil hat moments then, shall we.

I am about to finish a long term statistic on DOA going over 1.0Mio spins, equally split between 0.09, 0.90 and 4.50 stakes. Will be another 1-2 weeks until i got it all up and put into some nice charts, however what i can say already now is that the results lean extremely heavily in favor of the 0.09$ bets. I am running currently a check on all results as some just look totally unreal and don't show equal randomness for each bet size.

These are some numbers which i am double checking at the moment:

Paying spin (any pay, even less than bet size)
- 0.09$ = on average every 2.245 spins
- 0.90$ = every 2.537 spins
- 4.50$ = every 2.924 spins

This would explain why we can play hours with a small balance and only 0.09$ bets as over time that difference although it looks small has a big impact on playtime.

Reels on average covered with min. 1 WILD during bonus rounds :
- 0.09$ = 2.9
- 0.90$ = 2.6
- 4.50$ = 2.1

This would explain why i had so many more bonus rounds with >100x bet payouts on 0.09$ than on the other bet sizes.

The numbers swing even more towards the 0.09$ bets when i look at the percentage of bonus rounds when 2 or 3 WILDS are linked on Reels 1-4 guaranteeing pays for every spin.

But as dunover said: who really knows??

 

[Jono777]

It's possible, but we'd never know.

...and its this which gives providers the 'Don't give a flying fuck' attitude.

Proving any wrong doing or 'dodgy' programming would be harder than winning the National lottery Jackpot every Saturday for a year!

@OP - Best way forward, or from the word go is Deposit, tell yourself 'I've already lost' - if you win - RESULT! oh yeah and don't play the most boring slot on the planet at $10 a pop!

 

[goatwack]

So millions of spins are proving this theory correct, many players are witnessing the change before their very eyes and yet we still defend it as an 'unknown'.

Looking at those stats and my own observations perhaps the OP has an extremely valid point when it comes to betting higher. Apart from being some type of failsafe it most certainly does seem to play differently. Or like I keep reiterating, everyone across the world would be selling the shirt off their back to highroll.

After all, we can all agree that in most cases, getting that monster hit on high stakes is why we gamble in the first place. It might even be enough to halt gambling for a while, or even 'retire' from this mug's game.

 

[dunover]

...and its this which gives providers the 'Don't give a flying fuck' attitude.

Proving any wrong doing or 'dodgy' programming would be harder than winning the National lottery Jackpot every Saturday for a year!

@OP - Best way forward, or from the word go is Deposit, tell yourself 'I've already lost' - if you win - RESULT! oh yeah and don't play the most boring slot on the planet at $10 a pop!

They have to stay silent, otherwise we'd have a statement thus:

"Whatever we say, however we explain it, you are going to lose 4% of every £ you stake. The mechanisms of how this occurs are irrelevant."

 

[goatwack]

Out of all the games to blow this conspiracy theory tinfoilery wide open......

I never envisaged that it would be f*cking Starburst

 

[aceking123]

I dabble a little higher in stakes a most of you know , mainly £3 onwards , the OP is 100% correct , im in the middle of wrapping up my testing for 6 months & a stark contrast from low stakes , i dont see £3 per spin as high stakes this is a normal average spin for me.

What you get a fair amount is middle round wins not above 400x times stake, has happened far too many times not to take notice , the higher those stakes the lower the games produce the good bonus rounds , this isn't about bankroll ,due to its over many sessions & has shown on many occasions if you drop the bet lower bang you're in for a good win.

im ashamed to say one machine is running at 63% untamed panda four months of play 2 bonus rounds average 100 spins per session @£3 quid , note there has not been two sets of wilds on the page & top win produced is £20 . in base game (

Play n go book of ra dead or whatever you call it . guts should be ashamed of having it £500 blown ( losses not spins ) still not produced a win over 5x times my bet no feature either & again not just one session currently running at four sessions its my current slot of hell which again defies any normal programming , yes you lose but come on that's just bollocks & people wonder why they question these games clearly you can see why.

Advice for OP start at £1 bets see what happens also mix your stakes, jump up lots & come down lots this can work in your favour )) hence to catching a good win with mixed stakes instead of slot bleeding you dry Good luck !

 

[roulettedonkey]

There is no logical reason to trust auditing firms, game designers, casinos or gambling authorities.

Unless proven otherwise, games are rigged. The fact they (sometimes) pay doesn't prove anything, on the contrary I'd say.

99.9% of casino players have no idea what

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

means.

Let me show you how it works (a simplified version of

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)

Say I set the chance to win at 49.5% (payout 2x) and say I roll low (roll lo, "<"), hopping the the "lucky" number will be lower than 49.5000.

I bet once, I win.

I bet a second time, I win.

Say I bet big, VERY BIG this time. 96.9626 is bigger than 49.5000 .

WHY DID I LOOSE ??!! I want to know I wasn't cheated.

Dicesites like these explain how they generate the "lucky number". It's a mixture of things that are called
- server seed
- client seed
- nonce (or number of bets since last reset of counter)

Change any of these, and it will give a (completely) different lucky number (or the same one with probability 0.0001%...).

Of course, the dice casino doesn't tell you what the server seed is until after the bet, else you'd be able to predict the lucky number because you know the other two things, your client seed and the nonce.

Instead, it tells you a "hash" of the seed. A hash is what it is, a hash, a mixture of stuff. This server hash is produced with a secret key (that only the casino knows and he might tell you after chaning it) and the server seed. Again, change any of the ingredients, it will give you a completely different hash.

Now back to my third bet, unlucky one. So I use the calculator method explained. All the math stuff (modulo, hmac hashing functions) is open source and can be checked by hand by the client (all your banking transactions, your passwords, your vpn etc etc rely on stuff like this, if you trust these everyday stuff, it means you trust the following).

So I use :
- the server seed that I could get after the bet
- my client seed
- the nonce, "3".
I find

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. Apparently I wasn't cheated.

HOLD ON ! Wait a minute ! What if the casino saw the big bet and

- choose a different server seed instead to make me loose ?
Answer -> if he changed the server seed, it would give a different hash of the server seed. I can check by myself that it didn't, because their hashes available and I can see that the hashes are the same for the two previous bets (

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). Even though I cannot compute the server hash because I don't know the secret key, but it doesn't matter, I can after the server owner tells me his secret key (after setting a new one).

- jumped a nonce (or many) to make me loose ?
Answer -> I can check that between each of my bets, the nonce was incremented by exactly 1.

- changed the client seed to make me loose ?
Answer -> even easier to check, I just have to see that they're the same for all three bets.

- choose a client seed to make me loose ?
Answer -> the client has total control of the client seed. He can change it whenever he wants.

[little technical one]
- what if two server seeds lead to the exact server hash (but two lucky numbers)
Answer -> to find two such server seeds, you'd need something like the energy of the entire solar system converted into computational power and few times the age of the universe. But maybe he has two already ? Well, secret key (the other ingredient to compute the server hash) changes every 24h, so, he'd need to do that again everyday.



What about the casinos I play here ???

Let's see,
I spin 1x 0.10€ at starburst, I win 0.50€
I spin 1x 0.10€ at starburst, I win 0.10€.
I spin 1x 100€ at starburst, I loose

What can I do to see I wasn't cheated ? :'(

If there is any random number generator, they don't tell you how it works, if or how it's mapped into the reels, they don't tell you the mapping of the reels, etc.

Still, how many people trust them *edit* or even defend "it's only random" ?
Oh yea, they "pay".

You are welcome.

 

[partyhummel]

...

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i´d prefer to call it "randomness-simulation"...

 

[timmy19733]

Anybody else with personal experience would you be kind enough to share your thoughts please

I have to say that I disagree with the low and high stakes differences. I play all kind of games on and off and when I do well I also up my stakes and sometimes this turns out fine, sometimes it does not and you are quickly back to your low stakes (obviously).

So I don't see what you see.

 

[goatwack]

Same thing with the 'gamble feature' on most slots. Who here truly believes that to be random? I've had a few whoppers over the years but if I hit £300 on a slot, what odds of me winning a two-sided colour gamble?

Yes statistically I know what the odds should be but something tells me that with higher wins, whatever colour I chose would yield the opposite result. Tried it a couple of times on lower bets and let's just say 'never again'!

 

[dunover]

There is no logical reason to trust auditing firms, game designers, casinos or gambling authorities.

Unless proven otherwise, games are rigged. The fact they (sometimes) pay doesn't prove anything, on the contrary I'd say.

99.9% of casino players have no idea what

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

means.

Let me show you how it works (a simplified version of

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

)

Say I set the chance to win at 49.5% (payout 2x) and say I roll low (roll lo, "<"), hopping the the "lucky" number will be lower than 49.5000.

I bet once, I win.

I bet a second time, I win.

Say I bet big, VERY BIG this time. 96.9626 is bigger than 49.5000 .

WHY DID I LOOSE ??!! I want to know I wasn't cheated.

Dicesites like these explain how they generate the "lucky number". It's a mixture of things that are called
- server seed
- client seed
- nonce (or number of bets since last reset of counter)

Change any of these, and it will give a (completely) different lucky number (or the same one with probability 0.0001%...).

Of course, the dice casino doesn't tell you what the server seed is until after the bet, else you'd be able to predict the lucky number because you know the other two things, your client seed and the nonce.

Instead, it tells you a "hash" of the seed. A hash is what it is, a hash, a mixture of stuff. This server hash is produced with a secret key (that only the casino knows and he might tell you after chaning it) and the server seed. Again, change any of the ingredients, it will give you a completely different hash.

Now back to my third bet, unlucky one. So I use the calculator method explained. All the math stuff (modulo, hmac hashing functions) is open source and can be checked by hand by the client (all your banking transactions, your passwords, your vpn etc etc rely on stuff like this, if you trust these everyday stuff, it means you trust the following).

So I use :
- the server seed that I could get after the bet
- my client seed
- the nonce, "3".
I find

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

. Apparently I wasn't cheated.

HOLD ON ! Wait a minute ! What if the casino saw the big bet and

- choose a different server seed instead to make me loose ?
Answer -> if he changed the server seed, it would give a different hash of the server seed. I can check by myself that it didn't, because their hashes available and I can see that the hashes are the same for the two previous bets (

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

). Even though I cannot compute the server hash because I don't know the secret key, but it doesn't matter, I can after the server owner tells me his secret key (after setting a new one).

- jumped a nonce (or many) to make me loose ?
Answer -> I can check that between each of my bets, the nonce was incremented by exactly 1.

- changed the client seed to make me loose ?
Answer -> even easier to check, I just have to see that they're the same for all three bets.

- choose a client seed to make me loose ?
Answer -> the client has total control of the client seed. He can change it whenever he wants.

[little technical one]
- what if two server seeds lead to the exact server hash (but two lucky numbers)
Answer -> to find two such server seeds, you'd need something like the energy of the entire solar system converted into computational power and few times the age of the universe. But maybe he has two already ? Well, secret key (the other ingredient to compute the server hash) changes every 24h, so, he'd need to do that again everyday.



What about the casinos I play here ???

Let's see,
I spin 1x 0.10€ at starburst, I win 0.50€
I spin 1x 0.10€ at starburst, I win 0.10€.
I spin 1x 100€ at starburst, I loose

What can I do to see I wasn't cheated ? :'(

If there is any random number generator, they don't tell you how it works, if or how it's mapped into the reels, they don't tell you the mapping of the reels, etc.

Still, how many people trust them *edit* or even defend "it's only random" ?
Oh yea, they "pay".

You are welcome.

Unfortunate term in the UK for a convicted child-molester. Nonce. I thought you had been playing the Thor bonus round on TS2 for a minute....

OK, on a serious note you are seeing a potential situation where a seemingly 'random' event can be seeded to produce a random-looking result BUT one that will favour the casino in money terms, i.e. nullify any liability resulting from a player making a large and potentially very costly bet(s)?

In your example you allege human input - surely this would need a dynamic (but quite simple) algorithm whereby plays are seeded according to the running total on net loss to the casino at any given time. In other words a player who say always bets £10 a spin and has built up losses to-date of say £10,000 may have a better chance of getting a 1200x stake win of 12k (overall loss to the casino 2k to-date) than a new player who has just deposited £100 and plays £10 spins and wins 1200x stake on his third spin? In other words the algorithm has a net loss to-date computation which takes into account the player's overall account status i.e. profit/loss in money terms and can reseed the RNG accordingly?