My input on Software concerns - including Playtech

[banno]

2nd request for Playtech logs sent

I have sent a 2nd request to betcasino for my Blackjack game logs. I should have an answer by tomorrow.

 

[The Dude]

Bryan - since the time you complained about my stating opinions as "fact", you'll notice all my subsequent comments on this matter are INVARIABLY prefaced with an "IMO" statement. There is nothing irresponsible or emotional about stating one's opinion.

For one thing, I don't complain on my board. This is my property - nothing to complain about. I give guidelines and rules on how I believe posters should behave.

Anyway, this here is your opinion:

I know they're happy (Playtech) being the crooked pondlife scum they are.

So I guess you feel that you are free to say whatever you like here without repercussions just because you throw in the disclaimer IMO.

Sorry dude, dat don't cut it here. You want to start name-calling? go to That Sucks or WOL or wherever. The only one allowed to call anyone names here is me. Sorry, that's the way it is...unless of course I agree with the namecaller, or I miss the thread.

Playtech may have some problems, but the operators and employees are not "crooked pondlife scum" IMO.

And no, Bethug, I ain't no Black Jack player. In fact I find it incredibly boring like Roullete (sorry guys).

But besides this, receiving your logs from the casino should not be a mindnumbing deal. If they don't provide them on your first request, request them again and state why you want them. If they blow you off again, contact me and I'll see what I can do.

 

[The Dude]

I have sent a 2nd request to betcasino for my Blackjack game logs. I should have an answer by tomorrow.

Good luck banno. If you hit a brick wall, please let me know.

 

[banno]

Good luck banno. If you hit a brick wall, please let me know.

Thanks Bryan. I will keep you informed.

 

[bethug]

bryan , do this then , take 8000 dollars. try two of each casinos, with 1000 in each one. Play black jack. ( two playtec, two micro,two rtg, and two boss meida) record all your results then please tell me and others what your think.

 

[The Dude]

bryan , do this then , take 8000 dollars....

I guess I should ask my wife for an advance on my allowance

 

[caruso]

Playtech may have some problems, but the operators and employees are not "crooked pondlife scum" IMO.

OK, I retract the comment. It wasn't necessary to the point I was making. I stand by my opinion that they cheat, however.

 

[jpm]

I guess I should ask my wife for an advance on my allowance

Ask Vortran, I hear he's seeing a cute little ATM down the street!

 

[banno]

No Playtec logs yet

No logs as of yet from betcasino. I'm going to give them until tomorrow morning and if I've received nothing, I will send them one final e-mail expressing my displeasure. A no response will just add fuel to the fire because I am already suspicious of their software, they've refused to provide logs and their customer service isn't what they say it is. Their website it's stated that all e-mails will be answered within 25 mintues. The first e-mail that I ever sent it took a day and a half to get a response.

I will provide an update in the morning and look forward to any ideas that anyone might have.

 

[HateMG]

Ask Vortran, I hear he's seeing a cute little ATM down the street!

Oh boy, if that's the case Bryan will abandon this ship

 

[jpm]

Well, we don't know if she 'puts out' yet!

 

[jetset]

"Microgaming: Currently clean as a whistle. Pre-2002ish, cheating. Heard about the OCA and pulled their socks up fast. If a full set of tests is ever done on the (hopefully now error-free) data before the OCA folk get their kneecaps broken, it'll be revealed. Maybe too time-consuming a task, however. And probably too much risk to the kneecaps."

This would seem to me to be supposition, unless you have some evidence to back your statement (a) that MGS was cheating, (b) that they "pulled their socks up fast" on hearfing about the OCA. The broken knees comment is presumably intended as a frivolous comment, or do you have evidence that physical violence has been offered to "the OCA folks" and if so by whom?

 

[jetset]

"Boss: Rigged.

Playtech: Rigged."

Is this a personal opinion or a statement based on firm evidence please?

 

[toofast4u]

Cryptologic and a few select RTG casinos are the only ones I will mess with now days.

There is a great deal of cheating that goes on with many BJ internet games. Seriously, what are the odds of losing 20+ hands in a row playing perfect basic strategy?? It happens all the time at some of these casinos and no one can deny that there is something fishy going on. That being said, stay away from certain software providers that seem to have these problems. There are good guys out there, why wast your money on a bad bet?? Its already gambling, you already have a good chance of losing your money, why increase that chance by placing your bet with a shady casino?? I see many complaints around here from peole that waste hundreds at these casinos and seem to be under the impression that eventually its going to turn around, i know all about it because I used to be one of those people.

You can complain about it all you want but unless you can prove it and do something about it, then stay away from them.

 

[DealerBusts]

"Microgaming: Currently clean as a whistle. Pre-2002ish, cheating. Heard about the OCA and pulled their socks up fast. If a full set of tests is ever done on the (hopefully now error-free) data before the OCA folk get their kneecaps broken, it'll be revealed. Maybe too time-consuming a task, however. And probably too much risk to the kneecaps."

This would seem to me to be supposition, unless you have some evidence to back your statement (a) that MGS was cheating, (b) that they "pulled their socks up fast" on hearfing about the OCA. The broken knees comment is presumably intended as a frivolous comment, or do you have evidence that physical violence has been offered to "the OCA folks" and if so by whom?

OCA reports (approximately) a 0.2% HA for Single-Deck BJ data before 2003 and 0.05% after 2003. If they cheated, they didn't cheat by much but if they did then they tinkered with the game after 2003 so that the whole set of results would be closer to the theoretical 0.1% HA.

"Playtech: Rigged." Is this a personal opinion or a statement based on firm evidence please?

OCA reports that Playtech BJ has a HA of over 2% after roughly 186,000 hands. Its not a huge sample but inspires no confidence. I myself have been victim to some disgusting hands by the Playtech dealer. Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Neil]

Playtech basic strategy

Hi,

I've had reasonable luck playing blackjack at Playtech casinos. Of course the basic strategy for playtech is different from RTG. If you use the wrong basic strategy, that might explain why you are losing!

Make sure your basic strategy is for European blackjack (with no hole card), not American, like the RTG casinos use.

Neil

 

[jetset]

Ah, those controversial OCA results again...OK, thanks Dealer Busts, that would seem to place these comments in the "unproved" sector, then.

 

[GrandMaster]

OCA reports (approximately) a 0.2% HA for Single-Deck BJ data before 2003 and 0.05% after 2003. If they cheated, they didn't cheat by much but if they did then they tinkered with the game after 2003 so that the whole set of results would be closer to the theoretical 0.1% HA.



OCA reports that Playtech BJ has a HA of over 2% after roughly 186,000 hands. Its not a huge sample but inspires no confidence. I myself have been victim to some disgusting hands by the Playtech dealer. Just my thoughts on the matter.

How many hands were in the MG samples? Unless there were several millions in both, there is not enough data to draw conclusions from with such small differences.

The Playtech data is different, if it is correct, it is off by about 5SD, which is conclusive.

 

[bethug]

jetset, Do you play black jack? and if you do how often?

I play black jack every day, alot on land and online. You telling me casinos never cheated? Come on now. If they casinos was so honest , they would let a indepent party verify there software at anytime.

I been playing long enough to know a fixed game. jetset i want u to put your money in playtec black jack , then try rtg or intercasino black jack. Then come back and lets us know

 

[bethug]

gamemaster, do you play and trust playtec black jack. why do most up and up players dont trust them. There to many 13 losing streaks, just to many. micro does not do that, intercasino, rtg

gammaster what casino do you play at

 

[DealerBusts]

How many hands were in the MG samples? Unless there were several millions in both, there is not enough data to draw conclusions from with such small differences.

They were of roughly equal sizes, about 2 million each i think.

 

[caruso]

Damian - His handle is "Grandmaster" not "Gamesmaster" - I think you're confusing him with someone else.

Is this a personal opinion or a statement based on firm evidence please?

I repeat AGAIN: since Bryan chose to haul me over the coals for stating my opinions as "fact", I have been VERY careful to preface all such comments with the appropriate disclaimer. All my comments are my own opinion, based on my own play. I had a session at Gambling Federation which lost to the tune of five SDs. This is not conclusive. It does, however, tell me to my own satisfaction that GF deal a rigged game. I don't have that same extreme evidence against either Playtech or Boss, but I do NOT believe that either deal a random game. I believe MG, Crypto and RTG currently DO do so.

And in reply to jpm, whose question I didn't respond to (sorry jpm) - my comments relate pretty much only to blackjack or the variant games. And, they remain my opinion only.

Dealerbusts has the edge on me with those OCA figures. I've not heard anything about them since the final MG addendum was released. If those Playtech figures are accurate it's powerful and damning (and unsurprising) evidence.

 

[caruso]

They were of roughly equal sizes, about 2 million each i think.

Where have you got this OCA house edge info from? Was it private correspondence or did I manage to just miss it somewhere along the line?

 

[DealerBusts]

Where have you got this OCA house edge info from? Was it private correspondence or did I manage to just miss it somewhere along the line?

I was rather surprised by the lack of publicity about the OCA client that was released so I checked it out myself. I paid $30 for three months access to their statistics. You can download the software from truegambler.com.

For MG single deck:
1.57 million hands collected before 2003, HA = 0.216%
1.66 million hands collected since start of 2003, HA = 0.029%

Playtech BJ:
211,000 hands collected, HA = 2.06%

The HA is calculated on the total bets, not just the initial bets. All the hands above are the ones that have been played optimally. Note that something is fishy with the HA of MG before 2003 and after. Almost 10 times the HA!!!

Playtech is just rigged.....and i am angry because they have ripped me off.

 

[Black21Jack]

In regards to the intital topic of whether gaming software is fair, I don't think anyone can argue that RTG is very straight, unless someone can post otherwise. From my experience I believe RTG is very fair. Their only problem is the licensees, of which a large percentage are questionable in regards to fair payment of players. Sunset Palace, iNetBet, Phoenician, and Nostalgia Group being the exception. Has anyone out there had an experience with RTG that would lead them to believe the software is not dealing a fair game?

 

[GrandMaster]

I was rather surprised by the lack of publicity about the OCA client that was released so I checked it out myself. I paid $30 for three months access to their statistics. You can download the software from truegambler.com.

For MG single deck:
1.57 million hands collected before 2003, HA = 0.216%
1.66 million hands collected since start of 2003, HA = 0.029%

Playtech BJ:
211,000 hands collected, HA = 2.06%

The HA is calculated on the total bets, not just the initial bets. All the hands above are the ones that have been played optimally. Note that something is fishy with the HA of MG before 2003 and after. Almost 10 times the HA!!!

Playtech is just rigged.....and i am angry because they have ripped me off.

The probability of such a difference between the MG averages is about 7%, this is not statistically significant. Since there is not going to be more pre-2003 data, you will never get anything out of it.

 

[bethug]

grandmaster and jetset, like i said, truegambler results prove, what i been saying and others , about playtec casino and old micro casino software. I play to much to be fooled.

people that say it not fixed , dont even play blackjack, and that is crazy

that like someone telling me crack is good for u. and the person never seen what it does to people.

blackjack21, i agree with you rtg is the best software

 

[caruso]

Given a discrepancy of 1.54% for the Playtech figures, my shaky maths makes that over 6 SDs down. That's impossible.

 

[jpm]

And in reply to jpm, whose question I didn't respond to (sorry jpm) - my comments relate pretty much only to blackjack or the variant games. And, they remain my opinion only.

Thanks Caruso.

I'd have to agree with the opinion that the 'old' MG BJ was not dealing a fair game. I was sure it was cheating me every time. The new version plays much differently from the old, I've actually been able to win some $$ at it! Like night and day.

 

[banno]

Reponse from Bet Casino for Playtech Logs

After being refused in my first attempt to obtain my Blackjack logs from the beginning of the year, betcasino has sent me the following response after my 2nd request:

The information which you have requested below with regards to your game logs for blackjack are available within the attached document, please bear in mind that we will only supply you with information for the month of May.

Clayman, or anyone else: If you would like to take a look at these let me know. I'm still trying to open them at the moment so I'm not sure how many hands there are.

More later.

 

[jetset]

"All my comments are my own opinion, based on my own play. I had a session at Gambling Federation which lost to the tune of five SDs. This is not conclusive. It does, however, tell me to my own satisfaction that GF deal a rigged game. I don't have that same extreme evidence against either Playtech or Boss, but I do NOT believe that either deal a random game. I believe MG, Crypto and RTG currently DO do so."

Thank you for that answer. I am assuming that your comments on knee-breaking were intended to be frivolous and can be disregarded.

For those of you who think I am taking the side of the casinos in this issue I make the point that this is not the case.

This may not be a popular position to take, but what I do question is unproven allegations casually thrown about that this or that software is/was rigged. But perhaps I should in future save myself the hassle by simply assuming that these are personal opinions and leaving them lie. Then there is the OCA initiative...but that is an old if passionate debate on both sides of the question that has been pretty much exhausted here and elsewhere, and readers can look it all up in the archives in order to form their own opinions.

I still personally believe that the OCA has enormous potential, but it needs to be properly backed and managed in a professional way if it is ever to deliver full and unbiased value, and there needs to be a cooler, more considered approach in its promotion. That imv includes ensuring that all errata have been sorted out before any publication going forward, and having the confidence to stand behind it's statistics and draw firm conclusions.

 

[Clayman]

Playtech BJ:211,000 hands collected, HA = 2.06%
The HA is calculated on the total bets, not just the initial bets. All the hands above are the ones that have been played optimally.

Back when OCA couldn't tell a pair of 6's from a BJ, deriving a HA was impossible. Actually, it was impossible even if you assumed they could tell a pair of 6's from a BJ. How do they purport to do it now? What do you mean by "total bets"?. Hopefully they have somehow removed bet size from the equation. Do they now give a W/L/T record on doubled and split hands? Does OCA actually state the HA or are you deriving it from presented data?

What are the initial hand chi-square results of Playtech BJ, if he is still doing that?

Are subscribers not allowed to make public any hard data? I'd be alot more worried about getting ripped off by OCA than by Playtech BJ.

As for Micro, how many different BJ games are they tracking? Pre-Viper, I imagine most games would have been single-deck. Post-viper, there's at least 6 different games and not too much SD left.

 

[Clayman]

Given a discrepancy of 1.54% for the Playtech figures, my shaky maths makes that over 6 SDs down. That's impossible.

Of course it's impossible. That's why it didn't happen. Have some faith man!

 

[Clayman]

Clayman, or anyone else: If you would like to take a look at these let me know.

While I'm disappointed they won't send your entire gaming history, I guess May would be a start anyway.

I guess this way they force every player every month to ask for last month's logs. Oh well, no one ever said you had to be bright to run a casino.

Anyway, PM me and we'll figure it out. Maybe I'll just PM you, come to think of it.

 

[DealerBusts]

What do you mean by "total bets"?.

The software gives the House Advantage for the initial bet and overall bet (ie doubles and splits included --> The Wiz calls it the Element of Risk).

Do they now give a W/L/T record on doubled and split hands?

Not as far as I can see.

Does OCA actually state the HA or are you deriving it from presented data?

The software calculates the HA automatically. You can specify the betting size range and the hands that have been played optimally or not.

What are the initial hand chi-square results of Playtech BJ, if he is still doing that?

Players initial hand:
Chi Squared = 112.424, Degree of freedom = 90, Probability = 0.0547


I'm not really sure how they are doing the Viper games. I don't really share your optimism regarding Playtech BJ. Many players find it to be unfair. If you have time, maybe you could play a few thousand more hands of Playtech BJ and tell us what you think.

 

[Clayman]

The software calculates the HA automatically. You can specify the betting size range and the hands that have been played optimally or not.
Players initial hand:
Chi Squared = 112.424, Degree of freedom = 90, Probability = 0.0547
I don't really share your optimism regarding Playtech BJ. Many players find it to be unfair. If you have time, maybe you could play a few thousand more hands of Playtech BJ and tell us what you think.

Sounds to me that what OCA is calling HA is really a payback %. Otherwise specifying a bet range would not be relevant. Chris used to maintain that calcualting a HA from his data was impossible. One of the few things he was correct about. Can you tell how he defines/calcs HA from an extracted sample? Is it dollars lost divided by dollars wagered?

For the fun of it, try specifying an initial bet range that is all exactly the same and see what it comes up with. Not that it matters anyway.

Certainly the chi-square result, while not great, isn't enough to call it rigged.

And, should I ever play a few more thousand hands of Playtech BJ, I will certainly let you know. Although, as you know, I prefer BJSwitch at Playtech.

I can't help it that the only facts that I know are true is that I am down 2 units in 1107 hands of BJ. Also, while in a paranoid fit playing BJS, certain that the dealer was getting too many Aces, I logged about a thousand dealer initial upcards. I was a little disappointed the distribution came out completely normal. And I guess the fact my BJS results are also extremely close to expected value leads to me believe that BJS is fair and, while they might choose to rig another game, I'm not sure I see why they would bother.

In the mean time, I still hope to get some logs that can be analyzed and see where the data takes us.

So, if anyone has any, let me know.