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My input on Software concerns - including Playtech

Discussion in 'Online Casino and Poker Complaints - old section' started by banno, May 20, 2004.

    May 20, 2004
  1. banno

    banno Dormant account

    Location:
    Geneve, New York
    I would like to add my experience and concerns with online software and Playtech as well. I am 100% convinced that there is something crooked going on. Most of my gaming has been done on Playtech and I cannot tell you how many losing sessions I have had playing Blackjack so I have quit all together until I can find a site that I fell uses legitimate TRUE odds software.

    When I first started gaming online, I turned $60 into $1600 playing BJ and that was starting out at $1 per hand, gradually increasing my minimum wager as my bankroll increased. I play by basic strategy using $1 as my first wager until I win then betting $2, then $3, then $5. Most times I will continue betting $5 until I lose but if I win a couple $5 hands I may increase it to $7 until I lose.

    I of couse have had losing sessions as well but have had big runs like this too. My point is that I DID HAVE winning sessions but my concerns with Playtech and others are that I have had VERY FEW winning sessions and large number of losing ones and my winning sessions are really an insignificant amount. Some losing sessions have been extremely long ones sometimes losing 80 to 100 units straight and this is using a strategy that I KNOW works at times wheather it be online or at land based casino where I turned $1500 into $5000 just beginning with $5 per hand.

    Besides the patterns of the dealer pulling a 20 or 21 even with bust cards of 4,5,6 showing in "convenient" situations and the fact that I am unable to obtain hardly any runs consisting of winning more than 3 or 4 hands in a row, the major factor that leads me to believe that software is more in favor of the house moreso than the normal house odds is the number of 20's the dealer is dealt compared to the player.

    I have played enough Blackjack wheather it be practicing with a deck of cards or at casinos and understand runs of 10, 12, 15 losing hands in a row but I cannot tell you how many times I have kept track during sessions online and the dealer has been dealt more 20's than the player. If in fact the software is designed to do this, it is a MAJOR advantage to the house and in my opinion is NOT legitimate and therefore unfair. The number of times that I've logged in and played for real money and amount of times that these things occur are just far too often and unrealistic in my opinion.

    I have been told by a support person from Betcasino, who use Playtech, that their system uses a "random number generator" and that the system is tested over and over again. I was told that if there were patterns, a player would be able to figure them out and put the casino out of business. My response to that is a HAHA. NOT IF IT'S DESIGNED FOR THE DEALER TO GET DEALT MORE 20's AND BLACKJACKS.

    As we all know before any hand is played or any strategy is applied, the dealer and the player are dealt two cards each. Then in the long run a random number generator should generate an EQUAL amount of 20's for the dealer as well as the player, correct? With my experience and the number if hands that I have played I find this to be a suspicious coincidence that nearly every time I've logged in the dealer holds the advantage in number of 20's on the initial deal. When the player needs the dealer to have a 10 count card as the hole card, in other words when a player has 18 or 19 and the dealer's up card is a 7 or 8, it will FAR TOO OFTEN have a small card then hit to better the hand. Or when the player has a 17, 18, 19 or 20 against a 10 count card, you can bet that most of the time that hole card is another 10 count card.

    This holds true when hitting too. If the dealer can get on runs where he pulls 20's when hitting even on 14, 15, or 16, why can't the player? The dealer showing 4, 5, or 6 is SUPPOSED to be more favorable to the player but busting just does not occur as much as it should for the dealer and I am 100% convinced of that. When you as the player can almost guess when you're going to lose, there is something wrong. But in Blackjack you can't do anything about it.

    I hope that this comes to the forefront and someone starts investigating and testing software for the TRUE randomness because I believe there are a TON of people that are getting ripped off. It's difficult enough to beat the house edge without another factor to deal with. I USED TO ENJOY logging in just betting $1 per hand because I think I'm a good enough player to hang around have some fun and not get beat up. But it's no longer enjoyable entertainment when you lose $80 or $100 in a matter of a couple of hours. My advice is if you see any of these patterns occurring, QUIT. Don't give them another dime. Maybe this is the reason casinos can "GIVE US" 10% or 20% back on net losses. Hmmm. I thought that when Blackjack is played correctly it can be almost an even game?
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2004
  2. May 20, 2004
  3. marcolino

    marcolino Dormant account

    Location:
    Italy
    I play to Mapau (playtech) without problems
     
  4. May 20, 2004
  5. hhcfreebie

    hhcfreebie Dormant account

    Occupation:
    research
    Location:
    USA
    BJ is not an even game, the house has an advantage.
    If you are not counting cards, you won't gain any advantage over the house by changing your bet size. The more you play, the more you loose. Since there is no card penetration for playtech, there is no way to count cards so the house always has the upper hand on every hand.
    Turning 60 into 1600 betting $1-5 per hand is highly unusual, why don't you question their fairness at that time?
    Every once awhile I see similiar posts saying that "XYZ casinos is cheating by doing $%^". The problem is, without any records to back up your claim it become just your words against theirs. It's hard to take your words seriously that way.
    Let me say this again, you are suppose to loose. The more you play, the more you loose. If you think they rigged their software, please show us the number.
     
  6. May 20, 2004
  7. jpm

    jpm Dormant account

    If you want to play BJ online and count cards, try playing at Global Player. Many of their games don't resuffle until well into the shoe, so you may have a better chance there. I don't think that using a progressive method is the best way to go however. I imagine that Clayman or one of the other BJ experts here will be able to say for sure though.
     
  8. May 20, 2004
  9. HateMG

    HateMG Dormant account

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY

    This is a wrong assumption. The dealer will get more 20's just because he must draw to at least 17 while a player, in most cases, would stay on 12-16 when 2-6 showing.
     
  10. May 20, 2004
  11. banno

    banno Dormant account

    Location:
    Geneve, New York
    Reply to HateMG

    HateMG, I was referring to the INTITIAL 2 cards only...not drawing to 20. The dealer has gotten more 20's before any hand is played.
     
  12. May 20, 2004
  13. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    Can you give us some numbers so that we can judge the issue for ourselves?
     
  14. May 20, 2004
  15. banno

    banno Dormant account

    Location:
    Geneve, New York
    Reply to HHCFREEBIE

    HHC, I appreciate your response.

    BJ is not an even game, the house has an advantage. If you are not counting cards, you won't gain any advantage over the house by changing your bet size. The more you play, the more you loose. Since there is no card penetration for playtech, there is no way to count cards so the house always has the upper hand on every hand.

    >I didnt say that it was an even game. My point is that I shouldnt be losing 80 to 100 units in a matter of a couple hours when I have played for a day straight before at land casinos or hours and hours on other sites betting $1. And I understand that in the long run you're going to lose but again my point being after a losing hand I drop back to the minimim of $1 and there have been LONG stretches of just going downhill with not even a little run toward the positive. I dont plan on doing it for a living: I like to play for entertainment once in a while and if I lose a few bucks no biggie. But it is absolutely rediculous the amount of money that I have lost playing on this one site that uses Playtec. I have seen real cards dealt and I have seen patterns that this software gets into and its not pretty. Or realistic in my opinion.


    Turning 60 into 1600 betting $1-5 per hand is highly unusual, why don't you question their fairness at that time?

    >I'm questioning Playtec's fairness. I didnt win $1600 on Playtec: I won it on another site. If I had, I wouldnt have posted this. I also won over 200 units on yet another site too. I'm telling you that I have lost HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS playing Blackjack on Playtec. And evertime I login I get the same result. Today I deposited $50 at Omni at turned it into $100 in less than an hour. Those streaks have NEVER come for me on Playtec.

    Every once in a while I see similiar posts saying that "XYZ casinos is cheating by doing $%^". The problem is, without any records to back up your claim it become just your words against theirs. It's hard to take your words seriously that way. Let me say this again, you are suppose to loose. The more you play, the more you loose. If you think they rigged their software, please show us the number.


    I didnt keep track of the total number of 20 count cards the dealer has gotten on the initial deal versus mine in the thousands and thousands of hands I played but I guarantee that its more than the player. I have kept track of many sessions and I have may have them documented someplace. At this point I'm just going to avoid Playtec altogether. You are right. It's the player's word versus the casino's and I dont think there's much to do about it. If I can dig up some figures I will post them.

    And let me say this again: I understand that we are supposed to lose BUT I have played enough land based cards and online games and Playtec's patterns do not make it enjoyable for me to play.

    Thanks again for your response.

    __________________
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2004
  16. May 21, 2004
  17. La$$eB

    La$$eB Dormant account

    Location:
    Denmark
    I couldnt agree more. I agree on all your points!!
    I would NEVER EVER even think about playing for my own money on a Playtech Casino.I need at least 100/100/2000 to play Playtech software. It is usually a big slaughterhouse.....
     
  18. May 21, 2004
  19. bethug

    bethug Banned User - Winner of the "<a href="http://www.c

    banno, i agree with you. You have to be careful who reposse to your post.
    I play both land and online casinos, and after you play for a while u know when things dont look right. And playtec have to many winning streaks for me and others. There other places to play.
     
  20. May 21, 2004
  21. banno

    banno Dormant account

    Location:
    Geneve, New York
    Response to Bethug and La$$eb

    Hey guys. I knew I wasn't the only one. What a refreshing day it has been. I deposited $50 at Omni Casino and have had nearly all winning sessions today. Up to $165 in my account and quitting for the day. Now THAT's more like it.
     
  22. May 21, 2004
  23. bethug

    bethug Banned User - Winner of the "<a href="http://www.c

    i do real well , at wagerlogic casinos
    man stick to omni and intercasino and sands , dont go near playtec
     
  24. May 21, 2004
  25. DealerBusts

    DealerBusts Dormant account

    Location:
    UK
    Playtech BJ is so rigged, its not funny. I would advise everyone to stay away from Playtech casinos until you know what you are really getting into. Note how Playtech casinos offer so many bonuses to new and existing members.... even though they are sticky bonuses, there is no-way they should be able to afford it.

    To be honest, there are many opportunites for casinos to cheat online so its really important to be careful. Stick to the trusted software providers who will pay, Crypto is definitely safe.

    Btw, what is everyones opinion on Net Entertainment BJ (Cherry, Speedbet..)?
     
  26. May 21, 2004
  27. Clayman

    Clayman Dormant account

    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Still, it would be nice to have some logs to go on. All the more so, given all the negative comments on Playtech BJ that seem to surface with regularity.

    Banno - if you ever dig up any results, let us know. Naturally logs would be preferable over any manual analysis of same. But, if you or anyone, ever get your logs, I'd be happy to try to analyze them for you or anyone, either publicly or privately. I'm not holding my breath on this because no one has ever taken me up on the offer, perhaps for the reasons stated below. But still, I shouldn't think it would take too long before a reasonable size database could be established. A few thousand hands from a few players and, presto, at least you have a start.

    If I remember right, their logs are not "copyable and pasteable", so I don't really know how one is expected to actually get them, other than making 1000 screenshots which is of course impractical. Maybe that's by design so noone can easily analyze them. Are they dowloadable somehow? Does anyone know how to get them to your local drive?

    Has anyone ever gotten any Playtech logs in any kind of a text or database format?

    Can anyone even post their own summaries of BJ results like a W/L/T record?

    FWIW, which isn't much, my 1107 hands of BJ (99.83% payback) and 4000 or so rounds of BJS (99.76% payback) have been dead-on expectation. So, my act of faith is to continue to believe they are fair until proven otherwise.

    Oh - and of course I assume you play a different Basic Strategy at Playtech than you do in a land-based casino or at Omni. I don't see the point of comparing Playtech BJ to your land-based play, since the rules are different. If you are playing with no bonuses, I'd stick with Omni anyway just because of a slightly lower house edge and you can play the multi-deck just as if you are in AC.

    Plus, it's just not fun hitting a pair of Aces. :)
     
  28. May 21, 2004
  29. HateMG

    HateMG Dormant account

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY

    Couple days ago I requested my play logs for a particular day from Swiss casino and received it in xls format as an attachement.
     
  30. May 21, 2004
  31. Clayman

    Clayman Dormant account

    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    That should work just fine. Guess the key is to just ask for them. Is the data arranged in columns or all in one column, one row per hand? Not that it matters much. As long as it's not some kind of embedded object.
     
  32. May 21, 2004
  33. HateMG

    HateMG Dormant account

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    It's just like regular excel spreadsheet with columns such as play ID, time, bet size, win/loss size, balance and actual mini cards showing dealer and player hands.
     
  34. May 21, 2004
  35. hhcfreebie

    hhcfreebie Dormant account

    Occupation:
    research
    Location:
    USA
    Since this thread is about playtech, not only playtech's BJ, I'd like to make a comment on their 4 line JoB VP.
    I played 4 line JoB VP and double up to 2x my total bet per hand. For thousands of hands played, my result is always within 99.7%-100%. With their comp points, I am actually ahead without bonuses. :)
    I can dig up my records later when I get home.
    As for why playtech can offer so much sticky bonuses, I think that's because some playtech casinos have shady reputation. I just can't trust them unless I sign up through a good portal. Beside, playing with sticky bonus can be brutal to my bankroll. Not every people have the stomach for them.
     
  36. May 21, 2004
  37. Clayman

    Clayman Dormant account

    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Sounds ideal - they've practically done the work for you.

    So, banno, now that we know how easy it is to get logs, and how easy it would be to analyze them, all you have to do is get them. I know you can "talk the talk", as in "I hope that this comes to the forefront and someone starts investigating and testing software for the TRUE randomness because I believe there are a TON of people that are getting ripped off." Let that someone be you. Time to "walk the walk".

    If anyone cares enough to complain about their results, I would think this a reasonable bare-minimum request to make.
     
  38. May 22, 2004
  39. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    I have a spreadsheet that I use to analyze MG Playcheck data. PM me if you are interested in analyzing your spreadsheet.
     

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