Question Money Trapped By Betfred's Casino

[snotter999]

I think Betfred have conned you big time!

If what you say is true then you always would have never lost that 8K as long as your balance never dropped below 8500.
You still had 2600 that you should have gambled on some high variance games. Never know but you may have got lucky.
As you made it clear to them that you had no intention to lose your 8k then they conned you into withdrawing it and losing your 2600.
If you had of let bonus time run out you would have lost bonus and winnings but still had your 8k!

At the end of the day though it seems like you should not play at online casinos unless you are gonna learn the T&C's

 

[Samy-Limn]

Snotter I agree I feel conned. It does however say in Betfred's terms and conditions that they can cancel a bonus and pending winnings if they suspect a player is deliberately playing low risk.

Since I made it very clear to Betfred I wanted to play low risk, and had no intention of losing any of that 8k, perhaps if I'd have continued, they would've claimed that after what I sent them, my bonus and winnings had been removed, and in fact I'd lost my own money.

I'm only speculating, but since the terms and conditions are very vague, and it says clearly that 'Betfred's management decision's regarding bonuses is final'. I need to get my money out of there before they decide to make my life hell.

 

[Samy-Limn]

I finally feel secure because the money's gone through.

I'm still angry with Betfred's conduct, the nature of their rollover bonus and the way they trap customers in it.

The way they told me repeatedly I could risk losing £2,600 for free, then sent me an email saying if I continued to play with the £2,600 pending winnings they couldn't guarantee I would be allowed to withdraw the original £8000.

I don't know exactly what steps I could take against them. I've sent them a long emotive email about how disgraceful I think their terms and conditions relating to the rollover bonus is. I highly doubt they even read it, or are remotely bothered, but I told them that what they were doing was paramount to theft, and that I understand the need for casinos to take an edge, but that the conditions were extorionate.

I told them that although they're probably following the very loose guidelines they have to, that their deliberate deception of customers into accepting a bonus rollover that actually prevents any customer from being able to win realistically long term and withdraw any profit is an utter disgrace.

I could throw up a storm about the way their customer service team gave me false information, the way they told me different things about what I could and couldn't do. I posted the transcripts earlier on this thread of the emails they sent me, and senior members here agreed they had acted wrongly.

Any advice and feedback on what I should do, what my rights are, how I should feel about what's happened or anything related to the incident are much appreciated again!

Thanks

 

[me_and_ed]

Disgraceful for certain, but right or wrong its still a bonus, the casino deserves the right to refuse/alter/renege, I think you have spent a lot of time and anymore will be wasted, move on as you are doing.

 

[Samy-Limn]

I have a lot of time! University student doing an easy degree, and this whole episode has really annoyed me. So much so that moving on is difficult. I've lost a huge amount of money playing online blackjack, and the one time I actually win I find my winnings stripped. Given mixed information by customer services, and deprived of the opportunity to rollover my £2,600 profit.

 

[SlotGrinder]

I deposited £8000 into the betfred casino, and stupidly accepted the high roller £500 bonus. I turned my £8,500 into £11,600 on blackjack, but now I can't withdraw the £3,100 profit, and I have only 6 more days to rollover my bonus sufficiently before they remove my bonus money and winnings (£500 and £2,600 profit).

There terms and conditions are here.

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I have another £28,291 to roll over, you see that only 20% of each blackjack wager counts towards the bonus rollover, so I'd have to wager £141,455 playing blackjack to complete the rollover. Since Betfred's maximum bet is £100 on each 5 hands, I'd have to play another 282 hands to complete this. Given I only have £2,600 profit and am not going to risk losing any of my original £8000 deposit, I have a tiny tiny chance of being positive having played these hands. Could anyone good at maths tell me roughly what my actual chances of being positive are, and what the most likely outcome is! I believe on Betfred the theoretical return percentage to the player is 99.58%. Since this applies not just to the 282 total hands I'll play, but also each 5 wagers within the hand, am I correct in thinking that I only have a 0.00259% chance of being positive at the end. I calculated 0.9958 to the power of 1410? If so it seems hardly worth even trying.

Alternatively I could play Slots, Jackpot Slots, Arcade Games, Tens or Better, 25 Lines Aces and Faces, 50-Lines Jacks or Better, 10-Lines Progressive Jacks or Better, all of which each wager contributes 100% towards the bonus rollover. In other words I'd need to wager only £28,291. Does anyone know the house edge of these games, I assume the reason they contribute 100% towards the bonus is because the house edge is larger, and the probability of winning is far lower on each spin etc.

Carribean Poker, Red Dog Poker, Let it Ride, Stravaganza, and Sic-b all contribute 50% towards the bonus rollover. I have no idea how these games work.

Basically I'm looking at what mathematically gives me the best chance of being able to rollover the bonus sufficiently to withdraw, and I'm not risking any of my £8000. If anybody could explain to me mathematically what I should do, and be quick as I only have 6 more days before my winnings are removed!-I'd not only be appreciative, but I'd cut them 5% of whatever I withdraw. So If I get lucky and remain postive with what I have now and I withdraw £3,100-I'll give them £165.

Thank you for reading and any feedback is appreciated!

Not sure about the rest of the issue but your maths is clearly wrong here

If RTP is 99.58% then £100 wagering should return you £99.58 . So £1000 wagering returns you £995.80 . £141455 wagering would expect to return you £140861 meaning a loss of £594 . Which would mean you should still have £2006 of the profit left after completing wagering . I believe you changed it later in the thread that blackjack only contributes 10% rather than 20% so that would double your losses to £596 x 2 = £1192 but still thats £1408 of the profit remaining...

Actually I found a BlackJack simulator which can calculate this for you .
At £100 bets it looks like there is about 50% chance of busting (by busting I mean losing the £3100 bonus and profits) but also 40% chance of winning more ! (10% chance of losing but not busting)

At £25 bets there is only a 20% chance of busting and a 48% chance of winning more than you already have ! (but of course not as big a potential profit as with £100 bets)

At £10 bets there is only a 4% chance of going bust

At £1 bet (lol time consuming) there is effectively zero chance of going bust

 

[Samy-Limn]

I wish I'd known that at the time. The thing is because I kept sending emails to Betfred about how annoyed I was, and how I wanted to find out the best way to roll over the money, they said they couldn't guarantee my original stake if I continued to try roll over the pending winnings. (I've attached both emails). I also have no idea how to do the sort of calculations you just did, and was panicking. No one on here gave me that sort of mathematical analysis. I could have an explosion at Betfred about the fact they first said to me I could risk losing £2,600, and by the end sent me a threatening email saying they had to process the withdrawal now or they couldn't guarantee me getting my original stake back.

If I did that, perhaps there's a tiny chance they'd uncancel my bonus and rescind my £8,000. I doubt it, but I could try.
I wish you'd messaged me saying that earlier...

Isn't RTP 99.58-doesn't that mean that every single hand you start as a 99.58% underdog? So the house edge compounds on every hand? So after thousands of hands you're almost certain to be down?

 

[Samy-Limn]

I'm being stupid, since every hand or slot spin is an independent event, the house doesn't compound.
If I'd gotten proper mathematical advice and not confused/panicked myself, I could've guaranteed myself profit, I can't believe how stupid I've been.
Can you link me that simulator?

Have I got any chance of ever getting my bonus re-instated, if I go crazy enough about the mixed messages they sent me? THe fact they've put the money back on my card and cancelled the bonus surely makes it beyond unlikely?

Did you factor in the fact I'd have to wager £282,000 to the simulation?

 

[SlotGrinder]

If you make a £100 bet and rtp is 99% then that means that in theory you would expect £99 back from that wager
Then if you make another £100 bet then you would expect £99 back from that wager also
There's no compounding it's just for every £100 you wager you expect £99 back

So if you wager £100000 you expect £99000 back for a total loss of £1000

 

[SlotGrinder]

I'm being stupid, since every hand or slot spin is an independent event, the house doesn't compound.
If I'd gotten proper mathematical advice and not confused/panicked myself, I could've guaranteed myself profit, I can't believe how stupid I've been.

Yes that's correct about the independent event

Sounds to me like the casino wanted to scare you into forfeiting the profits because they knew it would be +EV for you to continue playing . If your original deposit was tied into the bonus then it is probably true they won't let you withdraw your original deposit until you have completed wagering . But the odds were definitely with you to complete wagering plus have profit remaining ... they will have realised that which is no doubt the motive behind their actions , trying to get you to forfeit the bonus and winnings now

 

[Samy-Limn]

So so frustrating. I wish you'd messaged me earlier, I was getting confusing advice on here and was already very confused.

If Betfred were telling the truth about not being able to withdraw my £8,000 unless I processed it at the time, then I'm not very angry at myself. Because even if it was EV for me to play, I don't want to risk losing £8,000.

If they were lying to me, (which I suspect) since I could always convert chips to cash, and the fact they told me at first on several occasions I could risk £2,600) and I could've risked the £2,600 entirely risk free, and if I'd just played 10,000 hands at £25, I would've had almost an 80% chance of being able to pocket some profit. I'll be so frustrated (at myself mainly!)-and angry at Betfred for having lied to me!

If that does prove to be the case, are there any sort of steps I could take against Betfred?

 

[SlotGrinder]

Sorry , I don't come on the forum often and anyway I'm hardly a blackjack (or maths) expert but yes I am suprised at the advice you got , at least from a maths standpoint . Maybe Betfred has a bad reputation and people were encouraging you to get your money off asap...

The reason blackjack only contributes 20% towards wagering is because the house edge is so small . Slots contribute 100% to wagering because the house edge is 5x or 10x bigger than blackjack . So playing slots is not necessarily going to be a better option although it will probably work out similar overall . But yeh looks like you could have done £25 blackjack bets and probably kept some/most of the profit although if you were very unlucky you might have had to dip into the £8k

Plus if you won the £2600 at big bets? and then start doing smaller bets just to make wagering then this can be against terms and conditions and you might have had problems there ..

 

[Samy-Limn]

It is against their terms and conditions. They can void your pending winnings and bonus if they suspect you're placing much smaller bets.
I also informed them that I was going to try and avoid risking any of my own money and try to roll it over. The moment I did that, their mood soured, and they started as you say trying to scare me into withdrawing since I had EV.

I wasn't going to withdraw until I got advice from someone who really understands Maths, but the second they sent me the email saying they couldn't guarantee returning me the £8,000 I panicked and requested they withdrew immediately.

 

[SlotGrinder]

Yes I fully understand your panic worrying you won't get your £8000 back

From their T&C I see this:-

What happens if I want to make a withdrawal before I have finished converting the bonus in full?

If you try to withdraw before completing the wagering requirements, bonus funds and bonus winnings will be removed from your account.

Players deemed to be adopting a low risk betting strategy to clear wagering will have the bonus along with any winnings removed and will be excluded from receiving future bonuses.


So from those two conditions it sounds to me like your £8000 should always be withdrawable and you only ever risk losing the bonus + winnings . So if they were suggesting to you that you won't be able to get your £8000 back then that seems to be something they were implying just to scare you into forfeiting the bonus and winnings . Definitely sounds shady . I'm not sure what can be done about it tbh . Maybe a more experienced forum member can help you if you provide evidence /emails etc ?

 

[Samy-Limn]

That's exactly what I'd like. Someone who knows exactly where I stand.

If they intentionally lied to me to scare me about my £8,000 not being withdraw able, then I have grounds to take further action against them.

I asked them specifically at 11.45 AM How much I could risk losing and still be able to withdraw the £8000.
This was their response.
"Thank you for your email.
You can continue to play until your balance is £8500, as this will leave you with £500 bonus and £8000 which would be your original deposit and could be withdrawn."


However a few hours later, after I asked for a definitive guarantee I could withdraw the £8000 if I were to lose £2,600. They sent this.

"We will only be willing to guarantee that you can withdraw the £8000 if we are to process this now and void the remaining bonus and pending winnings, this would mean that any winnings thereafter can be withdrawn.

We have provided you with all the relevant information if you wish to continue playing with the pending winnings but we would not be willing to guarantee that your original deposit will be available to withdraw if you do choose to continue.

If you would like us to remove this bonus from your account and leave you with your original deposit of £8000 then please let us know, however from this point on we will not provide any further information in regards to this matter and any correspondence will not be responded to."



They intentionally lied to me to scare me. They shouldn't be able to get away with this.
I need a senior forum member to get involved because I could have a case here to at least get my bonus re-instated or take action against Betfred.

 

[Samy-Limn]

I'm aware there's a gambling complaints centre called IBAS. Some sort of gambling commission to resolve disputes.
I have concrete evidence of Betfred intentionally lying to scare me into withdrawing my money, telling me I could always withdraw the £8,000 as long as my account didn't dip below £8,500, and then telling me I wouldn't be able to withdraw unless I did it at that exact moment.
That behaviour is intentionally misleading and I'm sure against Gambling regulation.

The least I'd like is my bonus re-instated, especially now I know what I do about the maths behind my rollover conditions!

 

[Samy-Limn]

Perhaps Betfred's Casino smelt weakness because they could tell how confused I was about the rollover.
Perhaps they thought because of my age I was inexperienced, and they could scare me into making the withdrawal.
Perhaps they thought because I'm some teenage customer they could deliberately violate all betting regulation and explicitly lie to me about what I could and couldn't do.

They're wrong on all counts, I've lost too much money playing online blackjack to let a blatant bit of deception like this slide.

They might try and claim because I told them I wanted to roll the money over and play the best mathematical option that their term and condition about 'Low Risk play voiding bonus' applies. They might try and say their final email was a mistake.

I'm not letting this go until I get answers.

 

[vinylweatherman]

The only legitimate way they could have paid less than £8000 back would be if you played on and completed WR having lost some of the original deposit. However, they could also have let you spend hours trying to salvage part of your win, only to then only give you back the original £8000 because of "advantage play", however provided you stuck to the terms, this would not fly in the UK, especially if you had to take the final resort of taking them to court.

In effect, once they realised that your intent was to play on rather than accept their offer of returning your deposit, they really wanted to get out even by scaring you into accepting, rather than see you make WR, cash out some winnings, and probably never become a profitable longer term player. A careless remark to CS is probably what caused them to change their tune.

 

[Samy-Limn]

I didn't just slip up once in my emails to their customer support, I told them explicitly how annoyed I was, and that I'd be doing all I could to ensure I remained profitable. Not exactly smart, but I was annoyed at the time.

Does anyone agree with me that their tactic to 'scare me' by lying about my funds not being guaranteed in the future (having previously said I would be able to withdraw them!) was dishonest.

I don't know how to best take this further, but take it further I will, because deliberately lying to a customer to get him to cancel a bonus is unacceptable and I'm sure Betfred know this.

 

[snotter999]

I believe you were straight out lied to and conned by Betfred.
They knew (cos you were silly and told them) that you were not going to lose your 8k
Then they conned you into withdrawing!
It is what it is!

You were naive and didn't understand bonus rules and they took advantage of you so that they would not lose money!

 

[Samy-Limn]

Conning customers by lying to them is not legal.
I want to take this further but don't know how.

Ideally I'd like at least my bonus re-instated, this is probably hugely unlikely since the withdrawal has already gone through.

I'm seriously annoyed at being conned, I've lost enough money playing blackjack to be aggrieved that when I win and i'm + EV I got duped out of my money by lies.

 

[naththo]

Any Playtech website are not working for me anymore as I am from Australia. DNS cannot be resolved.

 

[SlotGrinder]

I didn't just slip up once in my emails to their customer support, I told them explicitly how annoyed I was, and that I'd be doing all I could to ensure I remained profitable. Not exactly smart, but I was annoyed at the time.

Does anyone agree with me that their tactic to 'scare me' by lying about my funds not being guaranteed in the future (having previously said I would be able to withdraw them!) was dishonest.

I don't know how to best take this further, but take it further I will, because deliberately lying to a customer to get him to cancel a bonus is unacceptable and I'm sure Betfred know this.

This part of the email sounds very shady "If you would like us to remove this bonus from your account and leave you with your original deposit of £8000 then please let us know, however from this point on we will not provide any further information in regards to this matter and any correspondence will not be responded to."

So you have over £10k sitting in your casino account yet they will refuse to correspond with you about whether you can withdraw it or not .. ??!? Sounds to me like they are trying to be ambiguous in their statement that your £8000 is not guaranteed and they don't want to correspond further so they can leave you confused about the matter whilst covering their own asses ...
Unless you had been hassling them or very rude in your conversation with them then they should always be open to communication imo and the only reason for them not to be is because they wish to hide something or leave something unresolved/unclarified

 

[Samy-Limn]

I had been sending them lots of emails, and I had accused them of being misleading and unfair in a number of emails in the way they dumped me with the bonus without me realising.

They could probably claim I was hassling them, and that some of my emails weren't legitimate queries and were rants.

But that still doesn't justify why on earth they feel they could lie to me about 'processing the 8k withdrawal now, but if you choose to continue, we cannot guarantee you could withdraw the 8k'

When earlier they'd stated that I could play freely until my account balance reached 8.5k and still get my deposit amount back at any time.

I need to know the best way to go about trying to raise this issue. I'm not letting this go. I've been lied to and conned.

 

[spintee]

I started reading, got to nutnut's post about bald manc and a vile man and just cracked me up,

So deposit 8k for a crappy 500 bonus
saying that you didnt want the bonus yet had the chance to withdraw your original 8k? You won less than a quarter of your deposit and having a orgasim as you canot withdaw it unless wager is complete? Why would you deposit that much if your not willing to spend any?

You canot have it both ways, straight deposit and what you win is yours or take the bonus and live with the consequences, You canot deposit and expect to play with the casino's cash,

Sorry if I sound rude but its not all flowers and champagne in this gambling world