Microgamings idea of random

Rusty

Banned User - repetitive flaming
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Location
Manchester UK
Slot Mega Moolah 5 wheel drive.
lines = 15 bet= 60

Total spins 250
spins before win greater than x3 hit 160!
Largest win x8!
Jackpot attempts given Zero
Free spins won Zero
RTP 50%
:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy

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Please come again. :D
 
I expect the average RTP is pretty low anyway considering it's a Progressive version, maybe 90%.

Pretty unlucky there though!
 
you should try roulette for even worst results at mg casinos , i could safely say another slot type of play. but they keep telling its random . what would be the odds of covering 83.6 on the single numbers & losing 10 spins ???
 
Hiya: MrJones. You had bet 31 of the 37 numbers. Please post the 6 numbers you did not bet on, and i will scim through my recorded Roulette results and give you a, "Better/Real World" answer to your question.

Here is a real example of real spins. you bet the 0, and leave numbers 1-6 open. breaking it down into 111 spin sequences, here is some results of most losses in a row. 2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-3-2-3-2.2-2-3-2-2-4-2-2-2-2-2. This is the results of a total of 1554 spins.

Using this as the true life example. Here are your results.
Bet $1 ea on 31 numbers. = +5 on a win, and -31 on a loss. My initial review showed 4 losses a row as the most. Also, were you just flat betting?

Oh, for anyone interested on this, if you decided to use a progression, betting this many numbers, here is the deal.
$1 bet on 31 numbers, is +5, or a loss=-$31 on that spin, and -$31 total
$7 bet on 31 numbers, is $4 net, or a loss of $217 on that spin, and -$248 net
$44 bet on 31 numbers is $3 net, or a loss of $1364 on that spin, and -$4836 net

Most casino's have a $25 max bet on a single number. So, if you had bet $1, then $7, then $25, you have a net loss of $1023 every time #'s like 6-2-4 hit in a row. If you had bet like this for real over the 1554 spins, you would have a net gain of $1305. But one more loss when they hit 3 or more in a row and you net gain goes down to $282, and of course 1 more loss and you are at minus $740, and need 165 wins in a row to get back to positive.
 
hi love2win . neighbours bets mainly , these are numbers missed , 7,28,29 ,0 3,35,15 ,26 last 4 spins was by memory was what came in . 15,32,15,32, what are those chances total loss just in those four spins over 500 pounds, tbh im thinking that the software knows where my bets are placed , ive done maybe of 10,000 + spins at mg casinos & can vouch that pretty much 9 times out of ten you know you get that little pause then you already know your going to lose it hits these uncovered numbers by the book most of the time , time & time again i hear that these are random , i just cant get it round my head ,if its a machine it knows ,if it was live i wouldnt even bother to mention it.
 
Hiya: Mr Jones, at the 4 Queens, here in Las Vegas, i have seen the number 6 hit five times in a row. At the Flamingo i have seen this hit in a row, 7-12-12-7-12-7. So Yes it is rare, but things like this DO happen every once in a while.

THE RNG has Idenified my betting pattern, and is MAKING me Lose.:mad:

This has been said a lot. The Casino, and type of RNG does not matter, there are Players who Truely do believe this. To those players I say this, "Hit the REPEAT Bet Button, and after that remove a couple of chips, and add a couple of chips someplace else, then hit SPIN.

If you think the Casino is not giving you a fair game, cash out what ever is left, and go play someplace else. If you think, "All" casino's on the Net, do not give a fair game, Then don't gamble on the Net anymore.
 
Hiya: Mr Jones, at the 4 Queens, here in Las Vegas, i have seen the number 6 hit five times in a row. At the Flamingo i have seen this hit in a row, 7-12-12-7-12-7. So Yes it is rare, but things like this DO happen every once in a while.

THE RNG has Idenified my betting pattern, and is MAKING me Lose.:mad:

This has been said a lot. The Casino, and type of RNG does not matter, there are Players who Truely do believe this. To those players I say this, "Hit the REPEAT Bet Button, and after that remove a couple of chips, and add a couple of chips someplace else, then hit SPIN.

If you think the Casino is not giving you a fair game, cash out what ever is left, and go play someplace else. If you think, "All" casino's on the Net, do not give a fair game, Then don't gamble on the Net anymore

You could also add that you could try to make things fairer by bringing issues to light and publicising them.

If I were testing the roulette I would bet 36 numbers which would give a clearer indication if there were any manipulation of the results. (I know you can't win but this is a test)
You would still need an awful lot of data though before you could make any reasonable conclusions.
 
[quoteYou would still need an awful lot of data though before you could make any reasonable conclusions.][/quote]

Hiya: This is totally correct. Not only would you need a lot of data, but you would need data from different sources, Different On Line casino's, Different RNG's, and then be able to compair that data with, B&M Casino's Results.

This would require some kind of Nut Case to be the guinnie pig to do all this. They would have to move to a Casino town like, Las Vegas or someplace. They would have to walk around like an Idiot recording all the results. They would have to open several On Line Casino accts:, and record all the results from there. They would have to be risking their own money, and not just playing for free. But where on earth could you ever hope to find such a person?:confused: hehehehehehe........;)
 
Slot Mega Moolah 5 wheel drive.
lines = 15 bet= 60

Total spins 250
spins before win greater than x3 hit 160!
Largest win x8!
Jackpot attempts given Zero
Free spins won Zero
RTP 50%

C'mon Rusty. You have been around long enough to know that 250 spins means absolutely nothing when it comes to measuring RTP - and also to know that a progressive slot will pay a lower RTP on the reel portion to pay for the progressive jackpot.

The results you posted could be of a random nature - just about any results can be random, as they are just that - random - and future results do not depend on past results.

If you suspect that these games are not random, then why do you continually play them???? ]

Coming back time and time again making these 'casinos cheat' statements while continuing to play reduces the credibility of those statements to zero IMO. I mean, you obviously dont give your own thoughts any credence as you just keep playing, so why should anyone else??

Post something like "I think all casinos cheat and arent random and I am never playing another cent as a result" and you would have my respect for sure.
 
If you suspect that these games are not random, then why do you continually play them????

You seem to think that a non random game equals cheating? Why?

Post something like "I think all casinos cheat and arent random and I am never playing another cent as a result" and you would have my respect for sure.

My guess is that Rusty knows that the games are not random and sometimes when it becomes too obvious for him he has to tell someone. I understand it.

I will continue the funny rant then.

The totally random game Tunzamunni :)D) is one of my favourites.

Almost 10 times I have seen
in a row on the line just above or below my payline.

If that one occurs on payline jackpot is won (It's on 34 000$ right now). The same with 3 white sevens in a row, I only see that one above or under my payline. I think 3 white sevens pays 500$.

All other combinations have been seen on my payline and not just above or under.

Do I get mad over this even if the game isn't totally random?

No, of course not. I play it and when 3 sevens occurs (minimum 20 bucks) I take the win and then leave the machine with a win. Because the machine never hits for a while after 3 sevens occurs.
 
You seem to think that a non random game equals cheating? Why?

If the casino states that the game is random, and it actually is not, then it is cheating - its a long way from saying that all non-random games are cheating.

Rusty is saying that MG claims their slot spins are random, but he believes they are not. So, in his eyes, they are 'cheating'.

The 3-reel slots are almost always programmed using the 'near miss' principle....it is a ploy to make players think they 'just missed' the big win, when in fact they were no closer than if there were no 7's on the screen at all.
 
The 3-reel slots are almost always programmed using the 'near miss' principle....it is a ploy to make players think they 'just missed' the big win, when in fact they were no closer than if there were no 7's on the screen at all.

Just the answer I wanted! :thumbsup:

Do you really mean that they programmed the random game to fool me to believe that I was close to the big win? How is it then random? ;)

Give me your explanation and then I will give you mine.
 
Just the answer I wanted! :thumbsup:

Do you really mean that they programmed the random game to fool me to believe that I was close to the big win? How is it then random? ;)

Give me your explanation and then I will give you mine.

Well, first let me say I am not a programmer and can only speak about what I have read from several experts etc over the years from several sources.

To make it easier, lets just say there are 100 possible results @$1 per spins and all of them must add together to make the 95% RTP. The spin result is decided by 2 questions - is it win or lose, and (if win) how much.

So, the total of the 'win' spins must equal $95 and will be made up of different winning combinations, with the specific amount of each win being displayed as a certain arrangement of symbols on the winning line e.g. 3 7s or 3 bars etc etc. In other words, the win amount is decided first and then the program displays the appropriate images. Lets leave this bit now.

If it is a 'lose' spin, then the program can decide what the 'lose' spin will look like. So, what I am saying in essence, is that the programmers can code in such a way that the 'lose' spins are often displayed as being 'close' to a big win, when in fact its just a way of saying 'you lost' - the difference being that they want to 'tease' you into playing some more.

It is possible for the results to be random, but the display of those results to be manipulated. In this way, the game will still pay what it should. After all, what does it matter what the losing spin displays? You lose just the same as if you had 3 blanks etc, but you are more likely to keep spinning if you seem to be 'close' to a win.

I know its a very simple example but I hope it makes sense.
 
hi , winalot , im saying that over more than 10 years of playing more often than not, you tend to see these blank numbers coming into play more & more often , & yes you have to have a fair number of spins to got a full good audit ,but as a semi skilled player , im saying that the software does in fact know where your betting & if roulette is losing it will switch to hitting those numbers, how come i see sometimes 4 28,s 0r 5 28s come in a row , now bare in mind i dont play that number , but this never ever happens to one of my numbers ive had this on many occasions & before people jump up to defend the casinos & software ,ive never ever had such a bad run at a land based casino which ive been doing for over 20 years , yes ive lost but at least ive hit a single number ,roulette & blackjack on mg,rtg is just as bad ,i could ask how many people would would say that these games are correct & no doubt find that alot of people would get what im saying & i dont mind losing at all ,but i at least would like a fair game wins losses , but rarely do you get these with mg casinos & rtg casinos ,also i shall point out that i dont realy play chicken feed i play normal stakes , i see the format between mg & rtg softwares where it comes to table games you either win or lose mainly lose i would say round about one session win in 20-30 sessions .jmop though .:thumbsup:
 
If the casino states that the game is random, and it actually is not, then it is cheating - its a long way from saying that all non-random games are cheating.

Rusty is saying that MG claims their slot spins are random, but he believes they are not. So, in his eyes, they are 'cheating'.

The 3-reel slots are almost always programmed using the 'near miss' principle....it is a ploy to make players think they 'just missed' the big win, when in fact they were no closer than if there were no 7's on the screen at all.

No that is not it. It's not a case of programming but reel layout I think. Am sure someone cleverer than me can prove this.
 
Nifty: I understand your point, but you are not describing a totally random game.

If it is a 'lose' spin, then the program can decide what the 'lose' spin will look like.

It is possible for the results to be random, but the display of those results to be manipulated. In this way, the game will still pay what it should.

According to your answer I get the picture of a lot of eye candy when it comes to this machine. I have found one single eye candy in this machine and that is when the third reel corrects itself before the final result is displayed. Just like an old real slot machine does.

I can tell you that your theory probably wouldn't pass those RNG test they have done on these slots. I sure hope not anyway.


My answer when it comes to a totally random game


It all comes to reel layout and their RNG. If they have 50 symbols (even the blank one is a symbol) on all reels you have a total of 50x50x50 combinations. 125000 combinations. If it exist only one white 7 on each reel the chance of hitting that combination is 1/125000.
If it exists 25 blanks on all reels the chance of hitting that combination is 0.5x0.5x0.5 = 0.125 (1/8 or 12,5 % chance)

RNG produces for example 13-33-08 and this is 7 -single bar -blank and this is no win. The payline shows exactly this and above that you see the combination 14-34-09..below the payline you see the combination 12-32-07..

Next spin is 02-22-48 and is then of course 3 blanks in a row and you win 0.50. above and under the payline you see the combinations 01-21-47 and 03-23-49.

This is the exact same as on 5 reel videoslots as Tomb Raider and Thunderstruck as well but there you have numbers like 11-34-38-43-11.

But what is it with these slots that is not totally random then?

The reel layout already has decided what RTP the game is supposed to have.

All slots have a "stabilizer" which is based on passed rtp and betsizes. This can be the last 500 spins or the last 100 spins, we can't know. And Microgaming for sure don't tell us. :D My own guess is that the stabilizer values the last 50 spins more than the last 500 spins.

Every time a combination is drawn by RNG they pass it on to the stabilizer to see if this one is ok. If the RTP has been 150% the last 100 spins 3 sevens in a row will not pass the stabilizer. A new number is drawn and this one is three blanks in a row and this will pass. Congratulations, you won 0.50 instead of 20 bucks. :D

If the stabilizer notice a low RTP on the passed games it will on the other hand not approve to many losses.

I have seen it, trust me. That 40 line slot Prime Property actually throwed out money once I saw it. Every other spin was showing 4 scatters and there was Prime Property signs all over the board.

Also remember when Aussiedave won a lot on Break da Bank again 5 months ago, the machine obviously wanted to pay..

To the Tunzamunni slot again, I checked and I have not seen 3 white 7 in a row above or below more than once.
It's only the jackpot figures I have seen almost 10 times.
According to reel strips it has to be easier to get white seven-red seven-blue seven than three white sevens in a row.
 
Maphesto, what you're saying about reel layout is correct for some slots (Thunderstrcuk for example) but as far as I know all the 3-reel slots are "weighted". 5 reel drive is also a weighted slot. This means that certain symbols or blanks on the reels have a greater chance of falling into the payline than others. The game is still random, it's just impossible to calculate the RTP without knowing what the weightings are.

Many blank combinations will have high paying symbols next to them to make it look like a win might be close, but obviously the chance of a big win never changes.

The "stabilizer" stuff you mention is all completely false.
 
The "stabilizer" stuff you mention is all completely false.

Is it? :rolleyes:


About the "weighted" slots, there is a possibility that they have a lot of blanks not showed on reels. That is correct, but the "stabilizer" still is there.

And if they have a weighted slot it still is getting close to a cheating machine..
Then my theory with a stabilizer is a lot more fair.

I think that Microgamings slots are fair and they are not cheating. They are just stabilizing the slots to their estimated RTP.
 
Apart from being completely unneccesary, a slot with a "stabilizer" is open to abuse and would be the death of any casino online. UK fruit machines have this feature and people can learn to beat them because of it despite the average 78% RTP!

It's just completely impossible and unthinkable that this would be the case online. Incidentally the AWP slots on MG simulate this feature (but the mechanics behind it are different).


"weighted" slots are not just a theory. Some slots are weighted. You can tell by determining the reels and putting them into a simulator. If the RTP is wildly away from expectation then the slot is weighted (eg a weighted slot may indicate a RTP of 250% just from the reels alone).
 
Apart from being completely unneccesary, a slot with a "stabilizer" is open to abuse and would be the death of any casino online. UK fruit machines have this feature and people can learn to beat them because of it despite the average 78% RTP!

It's just completely impossible and unthinkable that this would be the case online. Incidentally the AWP slots on MG simulate this feature (but the mechanics behind it are different).


"weighted" slots are not just a theory. Some slots are weighted. You can tell by determining the reels and putting them into a simulator. If the RTP is wildly away from expectation then the slot is weighted (eg a weighted slot may indicate a RTP of 250% just from the reels alone).

Yup thats pretty much what I was getting at.

As long as the RTP turns out to be correct, then they can weight them until the cows come home.

The opposite of this is the Real Series RTG slots - called "Real" because the RTP is actually determined by the number of symbols on the reels and is as 'random' as you can get. It is also why you can estimate if that third scatter is going to appear by what symbols go past on the reel, and why the RTP can be reduced on these slots simply by removing or adding certain symbols to the reels (like the old mechanical ones)
 
Apart from being completely unneccesary

It is not unneccesary, many online casinos are small and can't afford to pay a lot of wins. You can see how Lock have it these days, or NedPlay before 32RED took over their business if we talk about MG.
The stabilizer is definately there to assure the casino their house edge profit.

a slot with a "stabilizer" is open to abuse and would be the death of any casino online.

How do you plan to beat it? You don't know if the machine is paying or not.

Unless you do as I and use slot temp meters. :thumbsup:
But the slot temp meter isn't showing that much info. Only when you are supposed to avoid it.

But I am at least trying to avoid the dead machines.


UK fruit machines have this feature and people can learn to beat them because of it despite the average 78% RTP!

And how do they beat it? Are they stupid programmed and they forgot to take betsizes in the equation?

It's just completely impossible and unthinkable that this would be the case online.

Not to me, I can't find any other reason for the machines to act like they are:

* After a huge win the machine is dead.

* When you hit 4 scatters on Loaded the free spins usually pay less than if you hit 3 scatters. Do you know why? 4 scatters pay so much from the beginning.

* If you win a lot on your first free spin you usually hit nothing afterwards.

etc.

"weighted" slots are not just a theory. Some slots are weighted. You can tell by determining the reels and putting them into a simulator. If the RTP is wildly away from expectation then the slot is weighted (eg a weighted slot may indicate a RTP of 250% just from the reels alone).

You definately might be correct here, I haven't counted and calculated these things.
 
The opposite of this is the Real Series RTG slots - called "Real" because the RTP is actually determined by the number of symbols on the reels and is as 'random' as you can get. It is also why you can estimate if that third scatter is going to appear by what symbols go past on the reel, and why the RTP can be reduced on these slots simply by removing or adding certain symbols to the reels (like the old mechanical ones)

But aren't most MG and Rival video slots the same? The only difference is that RTG have chosen to have the option to remove/add symbols?

Haven't Thunderstruck, Cashapillar, Scary Rich also RTP calculated by the number of symbols of the reels?
 
C'mon Rusty. You have been around long enough to know that 250 spins means absolutely nothing when it comes to measuring RTP - and also to know that a progressive slot will pay a lower RTP on the reel portion to pay for the progressive jackpot.

The results you posted could be of a random nature - just about any results can be random, as they are just that - random - and future results do not depend on past results.

If you suspect that these games are not random , then why do you continually play them???? ]

Coming back time and time again making these 'casinos cheat' statements while continuing to play reduces the credibility of those statements to zero IMO. I mean, you obviously dont give your own thoughts any credence as you just keep playing, so why should anyone else??

Post something like "I think all casinos cheat and arent random and I am never playing another cent as a result" and you would have my respect for sure.

Reading comprehension.

I have never stated any game does not retain a random element.Never!

Where did I state the slot or Casino cheated?
The results were indeed random (pretty brutally weighted IMO but random) and the outcome was 50% RTP.
That is what I posted.

Making statements that are not relevant to my post reduces your credibility not mine.

Also, just to add, in the posts where I state the games are weighted (rigged is different though there are times I have played slots with the RTP set so low it is tantamount to rigged IMHO) I go into very great deal and give real world results to, in my view, conclusively prove that what I am saying is true.
Perhaps you should do the same to back your definitive statement that future results do not depend on past results. because I have shown that is seems to be far from the case.

Think about it.
B&M casinos that are strictly licensed here have to stipulate the minimum RTP setting of the slot which can be changed.
These slots are Vegas style slots just like there remote brethren.
Think about it, for the love of God think at least think about it!
 
Just to butt in on the conversation about a "stabilizer" and weighting.

I would argue these are the same thing, the weighting is dynamic.
This is so blindingly obvious to me that I am still surprised other experienced slot players dig their heels in and say it is not so.

The thing is this weighting is entirely legal which is ridiculous.
It is ridiculous that AWP machines (Or those slots that get around this distinction) can still exists in this day and age as there is no reason for them except to ensure revenue stream.

I don't want weighted games and I want the graphic representation of the game to reflect the true odds of my winning with this clearly stated in the paytable.
I do not want this RTP to alterable because I do not want the reel strips or the paytable to be alterable.

What makes me laugh about Nifty is that he had a go at me before when I have been explaining for years exactly what he is suggesting only I extend this to 5 reel slots.
It is illogical to think that weighting would not be used in these slots when it is perfectly legal.

I will say this one last time.
If you seriously think you have the exact same chance of triggering a bonus round every spin and that the exact same chance of that bonus round paying big exists each time it is triggered you are either blind or you haven't played slots much.

Once your eyes are open to this truth it makes the games less fun and sometimes very frustrating to play but as long as you stick to reputable Casinos you can convince yourself it is a fair game if you want to.
The question though should remain, why is the game weighted and what data is the algorithm that controls it calculating?

PS

Near miss programming is illegal in some jurisdictions and I am not sure it exists in most software. RTG may use it but I am not certain.
The reason the 3 reel slots appear to have near miss programming is purely down to the weighting - there are no preset outcomes.
So for example the reel strip may only be 14 symbols long with a bonus giving symbol on the 3rd reel but the probability of each symbol landing on the winline stop position are completely different and not 1/14.
The bonus symbol may have a probability of 1/200 and if it is above a symbol with a probability of 1/10 you will often see it 1 stop position above the winline.

Nifty I have a deep technical knowledge, slot design knowledge (I design my own 5 reel slots complete with 95% RTP, bonus rounds scatters and wilds and multiple lines etc) I have a working knowledge of C++, flash/action script, java script, SQL and database design, HTML, PHP and others.
I have vast experience of playing slots both at B&M and remote casinos. There is my credibility, where is yours?
 

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