Resolved King Solomons: loss after loss!

[Roar]

how was it a great post? all they did was justify their existence (Wagerjunction being King Solomons) and claim it's just because I lost... and that a rogue casino cannot survive for so long!

They didn't even need to ask me to give them my details, as they could have just pm'd me from the get-go!

i will obviously need to post all of my chats in order to prove deceptive conduct, so you can see the clear pattern.

Settle praytech. SW was merely pointing to the stupidity of the "we been in business 10 years so we can't be rogue" comment. It was just a nice way of asking the King Solomons rep to stop treating Forum members like frigging idiots. There are RTG Casinos mugging grannies every night of the week that have been around for longer than 10 years.

Your numbers on the King Solomons (I was thinking King Neptunes MG - doh) are as I understand:

wagered $180,00 on variety of Slots

lose $13,000 representing a loss of 7.22% or $7.22 for every $1 wagered.

Assuming you did not avail your self of gamble features (even money no house edge bets) then a -EV 7.22% on Slots does not cause a ripple on my rigged online Casino meter.

I mentioned the weekend MG Slots phenomenon that anecdotally I can attest to as having more than a little substance. But even if the MG Slots were "adjusted" for weekend Slot flunkies then I am still not sure one could label the game as rigged. Casinos are at liberty to adjust Slot returns according to whim especially online.

I know in various countries legislation governs minimum Slot returns but online I am unaware of any such restriction. In the event online Slot returns are not bound by any legislated minimum return I fail to see how they can they can be labeled "rigged" even if they never returned a single $1.

The resident Forum expert in all matters Slots is Vinyl Weatherman Man but I have a feeling he targets MG slots exclusively (and avoids weekends).

He does possess some peculiar knowledge how Slots can be manipulated so follow up with the good fellow as he maybe more obliging than you think.

best of luck going forward.

/

 

[praytech]

You may voice your concern, but please follow the posting rules and general posting etiquette. Up until yesterday, you had failed to do so but were corrected. No one is shouting you down.

Max has every right to question your problem, motives, etc., since he manages the complaints here. You need to have a clear understanding on this.

You also need to back off and quit being so aggressive. Thank you.

I disclosed anything that might be interpreted as skewing my motives, hence I mentioned the 1k refund, so that people reading this post were NOT deceived about what was going on... I had presumed this was the right thing to do. I don't think that it helps Casinomeister to go on the attack like Max did, as it just deters other people from having a viewpoint that is clearly contrary to max's. As for disclosure, does Max have any interest in WagerJunction as an affiliate or someone who makes money from their good name? Just so that this thread IS fully transparent, I would really like to know.

Max has already admitted to failing statistics, therefore any statistical input would be useless. He has waded in to this debate, which is about my personal experience with a rogue operator, in a manner that is not helping this situation, but merely having the effect of tarnishing my rep in this regard.

Making statements like 'it's called Gambling' is not constructive, and I think you know that. I am well aware of what gambling is, and spend around $10k per month at my local casino. I am not new to gambling, and i am also not new to online casinos. The fact remains that my dollar went so much less further at King Solomons than any other casino i have played at (more than 10 in total). So much so that it has (and I hope you can appreciate this) spent a LOT of time writing the thread and dealing with this issue. If it wasn't for the fact that I am CONVINCED that KS's ratio is incorrect (either accidentally or intentionally) I would not have bothered taking this so far.

So, as far as personal experience goes, I believe I am in an ideal situation to say that in my experience, King Solomons is the worst casino to play at, and I do not believe their payout ratio is true and correct.

Still no one has proven otherwise, and they probably won't. If players saw King Solomons REAL payout figures, I personally think they would stay away in droves, especially the high stakes players.

But anyway, I digress...

So, someone PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG! SHOW ME the error of my ways! Give me evidence that the payout ratio CAN NOT be rigged!

It is of note that even the vip manager paid me a bonus because my payout ratio was too low.... and it was a substantial bonus. On it's own , that is not overly significant, but look at the whole picture.

 

[praytech]

Settle praytech. SW was merely pointing to the stupidity of the "we been in business 10 years so we can't be rogue" comment. It was just a nice way of asking the King Solomons rep to stop treating Forum members like frigging idiots. There are RTG Casinos mugging grannies every night of the week that have been around for longer than 10 years.

Your numbers on the King Solomons (I was thinking King Neptunes MG - doh) are as I understand:

wagered $180,00 on variety of Slots

lose $13,000 representing a loss of 7.22% or $7.22 for every $1 wagered.

Assuming you did not avail your self of gamble features (even money no house edge bets) then a -EV 7.22% on Slots does not cause a ripple on my rigged online Casino meter.

I mentioned the weekend MG Slots phenomenon that anecdotally I can attest to as having more than a little substance. But even if the MG Slots were "adjusted" for weekend Slot flunkies then I am still not sure one could label the game as rigged. Casinos are at liberty to adjust Slot returns according to whim especially online.

I know in various countries legislation governs minimum Slot returns but online I am unaware of any such restriction. In the event online Slot returns are not bound by any legislated minimum return I fail to see how they can they can be labeled "rigged" even if they never returned a single $1.

The resident Forum expert in all matters Slots is Vinyl Weatherman Man but I have a feeling he targets MG slots exclusively (and avoids weekends).

He does possess some peculiar knowledge how Slots can be manipulated so follow up with the good fellow as he maybe more obliging than you think.

best of luck going forward.

/

Thanks for that. However, I am not sure how you calculated the EV.... that still seems off to me. That's the problem with slots I guess... it's a really complex science. I can only see that when I was at Tropez and other casinos, I was able to wager a LOT more (like, 10 times the amount) than at KS... it's sort of like saying ' I lost ten times quicker at KS than I have at any other online casino'

Actually, maybe I should simply be stating that, as it is a fact. The payout ratio is confusing for most people but that fact speaks for itself... okay...

FACT: I HAVE LOST TEN TIMES FASTER AT KING SOLOMONS THAN AT ANY OTHER CASINO I HAVE PLAYED AT ONLINE (AND THIS IS A LIST OF MORE THAN 10 DIFFERENT CASINOS).

 

[Casinomeister]

...I don't think that it helps Casinomeister to go on the attack like Max did, as it just deters other people from having a viewpoint that is clearly contrary to max's. As for disclosure, does Max have any interest in WagerJunction as an affiliate or someone who makes money from their good name? Just so that this thread IS fully transparent, I would really like to know..

I'm not going on the attack - never did. But you have failed to abide by the the posting rules (which you agreed to upon signing up). You need to count to ten, and take a few minutes to read them again. Specifically Section 2 - Posting Complaints.
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/help/

You have been corrected a number of times both in private and in public. If you cannot participate in this forum responsibly, then your account will be suspended.

That is the final warning.

Max has no interest in Wagerjunction - he has an interest to do the job he gets paid for which is to moderate the complaints section in this forum.

 

[Wagerjunction]

????

It was just a nice way of asking the King Solomons rep to stop treating Forum members like frigging idiots

Roar i think that you are overstepping the mark here a little bit and making assumptions that are wildly off the mark . I have been a member of this forum for a long time and have never treated anyone like an idiot what i was doing was trying to tell Praytech that if we were rogue we would not now be in business .

There are RTG Casinos mugging grannies every night of the week that have been around for longer than 10 years.

Again can you tell me how many of these RTGs are on the accredited list here - the King Solomons RTG Casino is and i was i think the second or third RTG on Casinomeister and am very proud of that fact .

Also Praytech is playing on the Playtech version of the Casino

Whilst we are here to help players and i do my level best this is called gambling and sometimes you do have streaks both ways - a month ago we had a player win every single jackpot there was to be won and took away over €350k from a €150 purchase .

We cant tell him - well something has to be wrong - the percentages are way out here - so now we wont pay you . We are obliged to pay him as he has GAMBLED and won

One more thing that perhaps did not come out so well in my original post

There is no possible way to manipulate these games on either our part or the software providers part

With regards for the request for $1k back i can tell you that we do not entertain requests like that - what we will do is look at the payout ratio and will will be speaking to Praytech re the issue .

 

[Wagerjunction]

Reviewed

Praytech a little note for you - my CRM team have reviewed your game play and an email with all of your game play data and percentages will be sent to you in due course . I will PM you with further information

Regards
Greg

 

[maxd]

If you are a moderator, why are you wading into this debate, instead of 'moderating' ?

Actually I don't think I was debating anything, I was just trying to bring a little perspective to the scene. Please notice that I didn't say anything about the validity of your request to KS to cough up some data for you, I was just trying to remind you that gamblers have swings and it could well be the case that you're on one of them. Maybe, maybe not, but if you re-read my post with a beer in your hand instead of a hatchet you might see that.

As you say, you failed statistics, so that sort of discounts any input you might have ...

Actually you might want to have a look at that again. I said I failed it 'the first time'. I did quite nicely on the second go.

And when did I even say that $0 end sum was proof of a rigged game? I NEVER said that, so I would appreciate it if you don't put words in my mouth.

Having just re-read your posts I think I'm quite comfortable in stating that that's virtually all you have been saying. Statements like "I have actually never come across a casino where the odds are so stacked against a player" have formed the bulk of your contribution here and it's hard to read things like that any other way.

You're entitled to your opinion of course but my point was and is that your opinion seems more about your rage at losing than anything else. Hence I don't see that I was putting words in your mouth at all, merely highlighting and underscoring what you've already said.

Are you also telling me that if a player suspects that the games may be rigged, he should just say nothing, and let other players lose thousands of dollars to the same operator?

You don't know much about my work here do you? Have a look at the Past PABs and you'll have a good idea how misplaced your question really is. The PABs since December have been the bulk of my work here at Casinomeister.

I don't think that it helps Casinomeister to go on the attack like Max did ...

Again, I suggest you read those posts a little closer. You're doing the attacking sweat-pea, not me.

He has waded in to this debate, which is about my personal experience with a rogue operator, in a manner that is not helping this situation, but merely having the effect of tarnishing my rep in this regard.

(a) Just to be clear, KS is not officially a 'rogue casino' at this time. You're obviously not liking how thing's have gone for you there but that doesn't make them Rogue. (b) Your 'rep' was plenty tarnished by your highly inappropriate use of our forums from the get-go, for which you've made no apology as I recall, not to mention your in-your-face approach to this discussion since. I can't see that I've done anything to worsen that.

Max ... has an interest to do the job he gets paid for which is to moderate the complaints section in this forum.

An excellent point, which I'll take as a queue to abandon my attempt to help settle praytech's mind and recognize that I will find my time better spent elsewhere at Casinomeister today. :nod:

 

[praytech]

well, i guess we agree to disagree.

Fact is, I have lost ten times quicker at King Solomons than at any other of the 10 casinos I have played at...

 

[praytech]

Praytech a little note for you - my CRM team have reviewed your game play and an email with all of your game play data and percentages will be sent to you in due course . I will PM you with further information

Regards
Greg

To quote your pm,

Hi Justin

My guys have pulled a report that has indicated to us that your overall payout ration is 92.1%

They are emailing over the details of each game and the overall and then you can examine it if you wish

I look forward to hearing from you re this

Regards
Greg

Rubbish! Let's see the report! I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you would help here, and give me truthful answers, but that ratio goes against not only what I have experienced but also what I have already been told by your own staff.

How can you possibly get that ratio with the low level of wagers I have been able to make with my deposits?

 

[Fleur-De-Lis]

May be it is not too wise to get involved in such a heated discussion, but I just felt obliged to share my experience, since I was playing in KS for over half a year. While I did have a fair share of complaints (concerning customer service people who are not too helpful, slower-than-one-would-like withdrawal processing etc.), I must say they in no way struck me as a potential rogue enterprise. In fact, for the time being it might be the only casino I regularly play at where I have "plus" balance - i.e. where I withdrew more than I deposited.
The KS games ARE very streaky, especially slots, that's true... but that's just SO nice when you get the LUCKY streak

 

[praytech]

May be it is not too wise to get involved in such a heated discussion, but I just felt obliged to share my experience, since I was playing in KS for over half a year. While I did have a fair share of complaints (concerning customer service people who are not too helpful, slower-than-one-would-like withdrawal processing etc.), I must say they in no way struck me as a potential rogue enterprise. In fact, for the time being it might be the only casino I regularly play at where I have "plus" balance - i.e. where I withdrew more than I deposited.
The KS games ARE very streaky, especially slots, that's true... but that's just SO nice when you get the LUCKY streak

Well, congrats then. My experience has been the opposite, and from other posts on casinomeister, it seems the vast majority of other players have experienced what I have.. a casino that just takes your money

 

[Janek12]

Praytech, I myself lost more than 20k USD over the last 2 years, mostly in Playtech casinos; so I think I know how it hurts to lose a lot of money.
I have a lot of experience with various Playtech casinos and now, when I avoid lots of errors that I was doing as a novice and do not let the way I play be influenced by unrealistic expectations, I find the software fair (at least it seems to me that it is fair to me ).

I also think you need to take your experience on Playtech software as a whole:
You won 12k at Casino Tropez and lost 8k at King Solomons. So you managed to win 4k overall. Statistically, you are way ahead, in my opinion.
So I think, from a purely mathematical point of view, even if you encountered another loss of a few thousand at KS (not that I would wish you to experience it), it would still not mean that the software is rigged, IMHO.

Also, if you do not use any steep progressions (you wrote your bets are from 1 USD to 5 USD), I think it is quite possible to experience a downswing and to lose 8k (especially with 5 USD bets).

To sum it up, I think your point of view should be that so far, your slots payout percentage has been way above 100 % on Playtech, since you are 4k USD up (if I get the numbers right from what you have posted).

Best of luck in your life!

 

[Wagerjunction]

Stats

Praytech i am helping you - I am giving you the cold hard statistical facts that we have on your game play . This is taken directly form the Playtech system .

If you wish i can and will send a screenshot of this to the Casinomeister for verification of this data

You are welcome to post the data that you get from my CRM team as well seeing as you posted my PMs .

I also think that there is not much more to be said re this - you seem bent on tarnishing the good reputation of KS because you had an unlucky streak .

I am sorry that you lost but that is why they call it gambling .

As for your statement

Well, congrats then. My experience has been the opposite, and from other posts on casinomeister, it seems the vast majority of other players have experienced what I have.. a casino that just takes your money

I dont think that i need to point out that winners hardly ever draw publicity to themselves .

I do wonder though if there is some other force at play here . Ever the Cynic i am .

 

[praytech]

Praytech, I myself lost more than 20k USD over the last 2 years, mostly in Playtech casinos; so I think I know how it hurts to lose a lot of money.
I have a lot of experience with various Playtech casinos and now, when I avoid lots of errors that I was doing as a novice and do not let the way I play be influenced by unrealistic expectations, I find the software fair (at least it seems to me that it is fair to me ).

I also think you need to take your experience on Playtech software as a whole:
You won 12k at Casino Tropez and lost 8k at King Solomons. So you managed to win 4k overall. Statistically, you are way ahead, in my opinion.
So I think, from a purely mathematical point of view, even if you encountered another loss of a few thousand at KS (not that I would wish you to experience it), it would still not mean that the software is rigged, IMHO.

Also, if you do not use any steep progressions (you wrote your bets are from 1 USD to 5 USD), I think it is quite possible to experience a downswing and to lose 8k (especially with 5 USD bets).

To sum it up, I think your point of view should be that so far, your slots payout percentage has been way above 100 % on Playtech, since you are 4k USD up (if I get the numbers right from what you have posted).

Best of luck in your life!

I agree with your post. I have NO issues with the playtech software, and I enjoy the games (though I wish there was more of them). I simply have an issue with one particular playtech casino. I had never said at any stage that I felt the software itself was rigged. I think though that each casino has a level of 'manipulation' of the payout ratio on a given day, week or month.

 

[praytech]

Praytech i am helping you - I am giving you the cold hard statistical facts that we have on your game play . This is taken directly form the Playtech system .

If you wish i can and will send a screenshot of this to the Casinomeister for verification of this data

You are welcome to post the data that you get from my CRM team as well seeing as you posted my PMs .

I also think that there is not much more to be said re this - you seem bent on tarnishing the good reputation of KS because you had an unlucky streak .

I am sorry that you lost but that is why they call it gambling .

As for your statement



I dont think that i need to point out that winners hardly ever draw publicity to themselves .

I do wonder though if there is some other force at play here . Ever the Cynic i am .

Other force? OMG! What? A conspiracy? There seems to be only one conspiracy here, buddy. That is taking my $8,000 ! If you want any justification for motive, how about that for starters!

I got the stats now from the pitboss, Riaan, which I will include in the next post.

 

[praytech]

The Statistics from King Solomons

Okay, here are the stats that KS sent through. The first lot read like this:

Sessions Start: 2008-06-03 00:13:59 - Wagered $304.30 and payouts of $254.00 and your Payout ratio: 83.47%
Sessions Start: 2008-06-03 03:05:23 - Wagered $2,781.75 and payouts of $2,329.00 and your Payout ratio: 83.72%
Sessions Start: 2008-06-03 07:45:36 - Wagered $540.04 and payouts of $311.00 and your Payout ratio: 57.59%
Sessions Start: 2008-06-03 08:41:10 - Wagered $1,729.52 and payouts of $1,170.75 and your Payout ratio: 67.70%

Then there are others they attached to the email in the form of a spreadsheet. I looked at the spreadsheet, did some VERY simple sums (ie.. total bet divided by the total games played) and noticed a significant anomaly that I think should be clear to anyone (the total games x set bets per spin do not add up correctly)

Game # games Total bets Total wins Payout %
Forest of Wonder 5599 31,497.25 26,851.18 85.20%
Keno 4958 6,728.25 4,482.25 66.60%
Diamond Valley $1 4252 20,681.10 20,811.00 100.60%
Bonus Bears 3454 27,639.00 22,124.85 80.00%
Wallstreet 5Reel 10c2865 1,196.42 1,180.40 98.70%
What's Cooking 1569 5,626.80 5,091.00 90.50%
Queen of Pyramids 1421 3,062.81 3,788.25 123.70%
Fruit Mania 25c 1416 1,718.39 1,972.00 114.80%
Alien Hunter 1177 10,808.50 13,213.70 122.30%
Thrill Seekers 942 10,977.50 10,776.65 98.20%
Football Rules 812 7,951.25 8,359.50 105.10%
Queen of Pyramids 15c 767 980.99 1,187.55 121.10%
Lotto Madness 533 5,590.00 4,133.75 73.90%
A Night Out 512 8,926.00 8,104.00 90.80%
Standard Fivereel 402 367.17 246.3 67.10%
Golden Tour 379 7,570.00 7,882.00 104.10%
Beach Life 114 1,076.70 1,013.00 94.10%
Ultimate Fighters 105 624 541.5 86.80%

I play a lot more games than this! Anyway, the point remains. The figures do not add up, just more proof that these figures are completely fictitious. So I emailed them stating:

Diamond Valley is a set bet of $5 per spin. You recorded $20,681.10 as total bet, yet at $5 per spin, the total for that bet amount would be 4,136 spins, not the 4,252 you have in the spreadsheet.

Fruitmania is a set bet of $1.25 per spin. You recorded $1,718.39 as total bet, yet at $1.25 per spin, the total for that amount would be 1,374 spins.

Beach Life is a set bet of $10 per spin. You recorded $1076.7 and 114 spins. The total should be 107 spins.

Wall Street is a set 50c per spin. You recorded $1196 and 2865 spins. The total should be 2392 spins.

Their own statistics show now that they are engaged in at the very LEAST, poor accounting. At the very most, deceptive conduct.

 

[praytech]

It should be noted that at no stage, in my entire history of gambling, have I EVER played anything except the maximum number of lines in ANY game, with the sole exception of a 5-reel King Solomon Slot Game that I use to zero my balance (at either 5c,4c,3c, 2c or 1c per spin for enough spins to zero the balance (usually 1 or 2 spins).

 

[praytech]

Complaint Resolved

Okay, it has been explained to me by the pit boss that the discrepancy between the total bet and the number of games is, in fact, the free spins OR bonus round features. He has since provided me with evidence of this, as well as screenshots showing the payout ratio.

I have to keep my payout details confidential, but it appears I was mistaken. My return to player is not quite 97%, but as someone put it already, thats called gambling.

I withdraw my complaint, and thank everyone for their input and apologise for wasting everyone's time.

 

[zuga]

so much fuss for nothing

 

[Wagerjunction]

Figures

Praytech you are engaging in very poor conduct at the moment and i am going to advise you to desist in making slanderous comments on a public forum

The stats that you showed were for your last 4 sessions at the Casino something that you conveniently forgot to point out

Your overall ratio as per the email and i quote

Justin, I received your complaint regarding the odds, and also what you have been informed by the support desk regarding the payout ratio being 97%.

Firstly, as to the 97% you were informed about, please note this is our casino average payout ratio, and player's payout ratios can sometimes differ from this, but overall will be roughly the same as the global payout ratio.

I would like to take this opportunity to give you some more information on your recent game play and also payout ratios.

I went through your last 4 sessions on the casino which ran from 2008-06-03 00:13:59 to 2008-06-03 10:21:00. During these 4 sessions you wagered the following amounts per session:

Sessions Start: 2008-06-03 00:13:59 - Wagered $304.30 and payouts of $254.00 and your Payout ratio: 83.47%
Sessions Start: 2008-06-03 03:05:23 - Wagered $2,781.75 and payouts of $2,329.00 and your Payout ratio: 83.72%
Sessions Start: 2008-06-03 07:45:36 - Wagered $540.04 and payouts of $311.00 and your Payout ratio: 57.59%
Sessions Start: 2008-06-03 08:41:10 - Wagered $1,729.52 and payouts of $1,170.75 and your Payout ratio: 67.70%

As we can see from the above the odds were against you and I agree fully with you that these session it does seem that the odds were against you.

I then had a look at your total account gameplay, and the figures for this:
Total Wagers: $154,645.30
Total Wins: $142,502.78
Overall Payout Ratio: 92.2%

I have also attached a excel sheet indicating all games you have played with us, showing their respective totals and payout ratios. I have only included games where you wagered more than 100 games. Overall you will notice that your payout ratio is not bad at all.

I would like to let you know that I have also added a $300 bonus to your account as a small token of our appreciation of your loyalty.

It should be quite clear to you but perhaps your intention is merely to slag us off . Now i will get the guys to get you all of the game play - i am not sure why they did not do it the first time around but i am steaming now re this so they will do what i want .

You are merely using portions of the email that suit your argument and omitting the rest .

 

[Wagerjunction]

Posted to Quickly

Apologies - Praytech you must have been posting while i was posting on the matter and i did not speak to my CRM guys re this before posting.

Zuga I dont think its a waste of time - i think it is necessary for all Casinos to be as transparent as possible and where there are areas of doubt and unceretainty this forum allows people to ask questions that can be answered

By the way Bryan - congratulations on your 10th Anniversary -

Saying that - i want to advise all that there will be a new person taking over my responsibilities on this board as from today .

I will be back on the board in my personal capacity but this partricular complaint has highlighted the fact that it should not be myself dealing with players but rather people who are dedicated to Player Support within the orginization .

Have a great day guys and speak to you all soon

Regards
Greg

 

[zuga]

Zuga I dont think its a waste of time - i think it is necessary for all Casinos to be as transparent as possible and where there are areas of doubt and unceretainty this forum allows people to ask questions that can be answered

i never thought of this as waste of time...anyway glad to see this matter resolved.

 

[juuso]

King Solomon's was nice to send me a letter with free 30€ bonus to celebrate their 10th birthday last week. Played a bit, met 25x wagering requirements and won max. 100€. Cash out required a 50€ deposit and playing it 2X in any game. Black Jack was allowed. Decent offer. Hundred for little work.

Cash out was painless and fast.

I like Playtech as my main desktop OS is Linux and their browser version works great on it. Black Jack play speed is spectacular as well.

 

[azzy]

I deposit 30€ to King solomons and cashed out over 1400€.. Those games are just pretty high variance games. U can win big or loose all...

 

[azzy]

I liked that they had very good support and fast cashouts. Next day after withdrawn they paid.